Which Rule is Valid

[Stront]

There are very clear differences between surge enchantments in the DMG II as opposed to the Magic Item Compendium and I'm trying to get some clarification on which to follow.

From my understanding, if there is a conflict you go by the Primary Source. For example if the PHB states something (and no errata contradicts this information) and the DMG says otherwise - you defer to the PHB.

Now that being said for example, you look at Stunning Surge in the DMG II (p. 261) costs 2,000 gp and stuns for 1d4+1 rounds.

Now in the Magic Item Compendium (p. 44), the same enchantment is a +1 enchantment and stuns for 1 round.

Other than the noted differences, all aspects remain the same between the two enchantments. Am I correct in assuming the primary source was the DMG II or should I go with the newer published material in this case, assuming it is more balanced and up to date?

Thanks in advance for helping me clarify this matter.

[thethird]

Note that they have different names the one in DMG II is sudden stunning and the one in MiC is stunning surge so even if similar they aren't the same weapon enhancement.

[Stront]

Note that they have different names the one in DMG II is sudden stunning and the one in MiC is stunning surge so even if similar they aren't the same weapon enhancement.

I totally missed the forest for the trees on this one. Well I know which one I would recommend the player. :smallsmile:

[Darrin]

Some of the weapon properties in DMGII were updated in the MIC, some of them weren't. Some of them were given slightly different names or combined into a different property. Here's a list of DMGII weapon properties that were updated:

Combined into "Energy Surge" in the MIC:

Caustic Surge
Flaming Surge
Icy Surge
Lightning Surge

Although Energy Surge and the four individual DMGII surges have different names, and thus might be considered separate properties, the text of Energy Surge in the MIC suggests that by picking an energy type, you also rename that property to "Flaming Surge". However, the example given for acid damage is called "Corrosive Surge" (MIC) rather than "Caustic Surge" (DMGII). Whether you treat these as two properties from two different sources rather than an update that supercedes the previous version... that's probably going to be a DM's Call.

There are some other notable differences. The DMG version does 2d6 energy damage, while the MIC version does 3d6. The number of activations per day in the DMGII is equal to your Con bonus, while in the MIC it's 1 + Con bonus. Price is different as well: DMGII versions cost +2000 GP apiece, while the MIC version is a +1 enhancement (which is stackable, but quickly gets prohibitively expensive). The MIC version also has a clause that prevents you from using all of the surges, and then passing the weapon to another PC with a different Con bonus to get a new set of surges.

Reprinted in MIC with the same name:

Brutal Surge. Basically the same property, except the DMGII version works 1/day, and the MIC version works Con bonus/day, and has the "cannot be activated by any other creature until the following day" clause.

Defensive Surge. DMGII version has the number of activations per day keyed to your Cha bonus, while the MIC can be used 1 + Int bonus per day. MIC has the "following day" clause.

Holy Surge. As with the energy surges, the MIC version increases the damage to 3d6, and is usuable 1 + Cha bonus per day rather than just Con bonus per day. Also adds the "following day" clause.

Unholy Surge. Same changes as with Holy Surge.

DMGII Only:

Sudden Stunning. Can be used a number of times per day equal to the wielder's Cha bonus. Only +2000 GP.

MIC Only:

Stunning Surge. Activation is now 1 + Cha bonus, and has the "following day" clause, but priced as a +1 enhancement.

If you're looking to stun something, the consider looking up the Torturous property in Ghostwalk. Fort save is low, DC 12 for a +1 enhancement, but it triggers every time you *hit*, rather than on a crit. You can also increase the DC to 17 by upgrading the enhancement to +2.

[Stront]

Some of the weapon properties in DMGII were updated in the MIC, some of them weren't. Some of them were given slightly different names or combined into a different property. Here's a list of DMGII weapon properties that were updated:

Combined into "Energy Surge" in the MIC:

Caustic Surge
Flaming Surge
Icy Surge
Lightning Surge

Although Energy Surge and the four individual DMGII surges have different names, and thus might be considered separate properties, the text of Energy Surge in the MIC suggests that by picking an energy type, you also rename that property to "Flaming Surge". However, the example given for acid damage is called "Corrosive Surge" (MIC) rather than "Caustic Surge" (DMGII). Whether you treat these as two properties from two different sources rather than an update that supercedes the previous version... that's probably going to be a DM's Call.

There are some other notable differences. The DMG version does 2d6 energy damage, while the MIC version does 3d6. The number of activations per day in the DMGII is equal to your Con bonus, while in the MIC it's 1 + Con bonus. Price is different as well: DMGII versions cost +2000 GP apiece, while the MIC version is a +1 enhancement (which is stackable, but quickly gets prohibitively expensive). The MIC version also has a clause that prevents you from using all of the surges, and then passing the weapon to another PC with a different Con bonus to get a new set of surges.

Reprinted in MIC with the same name:

Brutal Surge. Basically the same property, except the DMGII version works 1/day, and the MIC version works Con bonus/day, and has the "cannot be activated by any other creature until the following day" clause.

Defensive Surge. DMGII version has the number of activations per day keyed to your Cha bonus, while the MIC can be used 1 + Int bonus per day. MIC has the "following day" clause.

Holy Surge. As with the energy surges, the MIC version increases the damage to 3d6, and is usuable 1 + Cha bonus per day rather than just Con bonus per day. Also adds the "following day" clause.

Unholy Surge. Same changes as with Holy Surge.

DMGII Only:

Sudden Stunning. Can be used a number of times per day equal to the wielder's Cha bonus. Only +2000 GP.

MIC Only:

Stunning Surge. Activation is now 1 + Cha bonus, and has the "following day" clause, but priced as a +1 enhancement.

If you're looking to stun something, the consider looking up the Torturous property in Ghostwalk. Fort save is low, DC 12 for a +1 enhancement, but it triggers every time you *hit*, rather than on a crit. You can also increase the DC to 17 by upgrading the enhancement to +2.

Wow thanks for all that information. I have a Paladin/Pious Templar/Dragon Shaman Build (don't ask) that has a Charisma of 31 at level 12. The Fort save is like DC 26 or be stunned for 1 round and he can use it 11 times per day.