XP by playtime, DM help (Pathfinder)

[The Anarresti]

On Thursday, I'm starting a new game with a new group, at level 1. The system is Pathfinder, which I am new to, but I'm fluent in 3.5e, so that isn't really the problem. The problem is xp awards.

So you know, I'm a seat-of-the-pants style DM who hates math. Normally when I play, I prepare a handful of generic statblocks, plus a vague map and plot outline, and improvise from there. This approach works well for gameplay but doesn't lend itself well to xp awards.

I like to keep the focus of the game more on roleplaying and story, anyway, and I don't really like the xp-by-combat mechanic. In the past, my groups would just level, as a whole, by the story. However, I want to change that for this new group. For one, I want things like xp drain to actually matter. For two, I want my PCs to level up as quickly or as slowly as we want, without having to gerrymander this or that encounter to get there. For three, knowing exactly what level the PCs will be in, say, a month's time (IRL) would make it a lot easier for me to sketch out long-term plot.

So, is there a rule of thumb for awarding xp by playtime? In my ideal world, I would just award xp based on a formula of so-many points per hour of IRL playtime, with occasional bonuses for plot-based accomplishments. By playtime, I simply mean the time from when we sit down at the table to the time we conclude the session.
To put it mathematically:

a = tc+y


a = the award to any given PC at the end of any given session
t = time spent playing, in hours
c = a constant
y = the sum of all ad hoc bonuses, if any.

What is c?

I've never played with XP before, so I don't have any idea myself what that rate might be. My players are all new or inexperianced, so I want to be able to give them straight answers and hard rules. I've let games fall apart before by trying too hard to include the players in the DMing process (the group stuck together just fine, though; it is just a game, after all.) Thoughts?

[Wagadodo]

One thing they did in Pathfinder is they took all the XP Drains out. Crafting Magic Items do not cost any XP just money. Even losing a level just provides a minus to hit points and to saves.

Our group likes to level up about every 4 level apporiate encounters. So it is more a at this point in the story. And by taking out all the Exp required items allowed us to do that much more readily in Pathfinder than we did in 3.5.

[Raven777]

A flat constant Xp per time doesn't mesh well with the exponential nature of the Xp per level curve (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement). Each new level would take more and more hours to reach, whereas Xp per encounter keeps things at a constant ~13 (fast) / ~20 (medium) / ~30 (slow) CR appropriate encounters per level pace.

Which gives me an idea. Maybe you could simply count things "per encounter" and disregard Xp entirely? An encounter being a CR appropriate battle or skill obstacle (traps, negotiations, traversing a dangerous area). And every 13 / 20 / 30 of them is a good time for the party to realize they've grown better, faster, stronger?

In Pathfinder, Xp is mostly irrelevant as a currency anyway. Crafting and spells don't cost any, and level drain abilities don't mention it either. The only Xp draining thing I can think of is one of the cards in the Deck of Many Things that makes you lose 10,000 Xp. I think it's the only Xp drain mechanic left in the entire game.

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Another advice I could give is to not award Xp on the fly. Rather, award the Xp from a previous session before the start of the next session. That way, it leaves you time by yourself, as a DM, to reflect upon the things the PCs did during the game, divide events into encounters as you see fit, and then award Xp before next week's session in nice, neat, meaningful blocks.

[yougi]

If you don't want to award XP by combat (which I understand wholeheartedly, although for different reasons), I would suggest that you give XP in the 1E way, i.e. based on the amount of treasure they bring back, or based on objectives they fulfill. I personally switched to a complex system where I give minor XP for combat (10% of what it says in the DMG, and double XP if none of their turns took over 30 seconds), some XP for treasure (in the low level, 1xp for 3gp they bring back) or interactions with NPC (meaningful interaction, and IC, not just "I go see the tavern guy and chat him up for an hour"), and major XP for objectives (you guys discovered the traitor? 1500xp each). At low level, it works fine, and I'm sure it also will at higher levels, even though I'll have to adjust the rates.

However, if you don't like the math behind handing out XP, making them level when plot demands it works much better in PF than 3.5, for the reasons others mentioned.

[Slylizard]

I'm actually doing the same thing, because I hate xp by encounter. What I'm going to do is award full levels as rewards.

I've got a high level plan for my campaign and have marked out a set of points at which I turn to the players and announce their new level.

I don't need to worry about formulas or having enough encounters, so for me it works well. It also puts the level advancement at appropriate points for my planning so that I know after quest X they'll be level Y and can plan for the next quest appropriately.

[AttilaTheGeek]

In my group, we just say "Alright, you just killed this boss. Everyone level up!", which works out well. In the one group I've been in where we actually kept track of XP, after each session the GM said "What were some things other players did that you thought they deserved to earn XP for?". It was a really great way to ensure players earned XP for the right things, it built friendships between a group where no one really knew each other, and it was really satisfying to receive recognition from fellow players for deeds. It also has a time component, because the more someone plays, the more XP they'll receive from their fellow players. I would wholeheartedly recommend it.

[NichG]

Just give out XP per session. Unless your sessions vary a lot in terms of how long they are, this should be about the same and it prevents us from having to guess at the speed at which your players get things done.

For instance, in D&D 3.5 you might give each character 250xp per ECL every session. This means they level up every four sessions roughly, and that rate remains constant. I'm less familiar with Pathfinder, but a similar thing should probably work - instead of 250xp per ECL, use 25% of the XP required to attain the next leel.

[chrisgray86]

Thats how our dm does it by how many games you play/show up for. I actually find it rather annoying because we have played close to 25 or so games and we have just picked up two levels. We completed our main quest and didnt even get a good amount of gold or a level.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Thats how our dm does it by how many games you play/show up for. I actually find it rather annoying because we have played close to 25 or so games and we have just picked up two levels. We completed our main quest and didnt even get a good amount of gold or a level.

How? There have been so many XP methods suggested in this thread, I don't know which one you're talking about.

Edit to add: Also, slow XP gain is independent of which method you use to gain your XP.

[The Anarresti]

So, to clarify, if I just give out levels as necessary instead of xp, (which is what I'm shooting for), the players should gain a level every session, or every other session?
What kind of speed has worked for you all in the past?

[supermonkeyjoe]

I found after 10 or so sessions of my last campaign, meticulously working out the XP per encounter that the party levelled up every other 3-4 hour session of play so after that point I just decided to award levels after every two sessions worth of content, less bookkeeping for me and no-one was opposed to it.

The only caveat was that I had done away with the XP for crafting in the same way as pathfinder, if the campaign has a lot of crafting magic items then this could cause problems.

[yougi]

I'd go with "whenever the current level is getting old", OR "whenever you need him to level up".

If the wizard looks bored with his current spells, give 'em a level. If the fighter keeps complaining he needs another feat, give 'em a level. If you're tired of giving them the same monsters to fight, give 'em a level.

Or, if you want the next BBEG to be able to cast Teleport, and they're level 6, well they need to level twice between now and then so a 9th level wizard and some type of bodyguards are a hard encounter.

[AttilaTheGeek]

I'd go with "whenever the current level is getting old", OR "whenever you need him to level up".

If the wizard looks bored with his current spells, give 'em a level. If the fighter keeps complaining he needs another feat, give 'em a level. If you're tired of giving them the same monsters to fight, give 'em a level.

My group meets once a week (usually), and we level up once a month or so. It's generally a reasonable speed, but through a whole bunch of coincidences I've been staring at the same 2nd-level Wizard/Sorcerer spell list for over two and a half months, and I can say from personal experience that this is very true.

[chrisgray86]

I'd go with "whenever the current level is getting old", OR "whenever you need him to level up".

If the wizard looks bored with his current spells, give 'em a level. If the fighter keeps complaining he needs another feat, give 'em a level. If you're tired of giving them the same monsters to fight, give 'em a level.

Or, if you want the next BBEG to be able to cast Teleport, and they're level 6, well they need to level twice between now and then so a 9th level wizard and some type of bodyguards are a hard encounter.


I LIKE IT YOUGI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MANY MANY Thumbs Up

[yougi]

I LIKE IT YOUGI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MANY MANY Thumbs Up

I AM THE THUMB MASTER!

I mean, thank you! :)


My group meets once a week (usually), and we level up once a month or so. It's generally a reasonable speed, but through a whole bunch of coincidences I've been staring at the same 2nd-level Wizard/Sorcerer spell list for over two and a half months, and I can say from personal experience that this is very true.

I know right?