Giving Magic back its bite? [3.P] [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-29, 03:15 PM

Alright, so here is my general take on the theory that went into 3.x and such.

In older editions, racial level caps and other less mechanical aspects of the game made the upper echelons of magic much less common. Less people had access to the crazy strong spells, so their value was greater. In particular, crafting items in 2e was insanely difficult, so magic items possessed were very likely found.

In 3.x, the idea was to give the power to do things to the player characters. You want to make an item? Cool. Want a spell for every flavor of the day? Here's a book for that. Spells don't scale well with level? Fixed. Saving throws in 2e and earlier insanely complicated and unbalanced? Standardized.

Magic became much more prevalent and user friendly in 3.x, as did dying, now fixable with magic that doesn't permanently decrease Constitution. No caps on ability stats. Many more ways to improve ability scores, 80% of them magical.

The long and short of it is that the system for using magic is more accessible, more streamlined, more well-defined (hard to imagine less well-defined than 3.x, but hey, 2e was like that), the mechanic was overall a better system. Now exploiting that system could be handled in an equally systematic way.

So, to return the risk to magic? Most of the fixes that jump to mind are flavor-based stuff for a specific setting, not rules-based. For instance, a cabal of archmages challenges any newly arrived max-spell-level caster to a mageduel, unfairly stacked against the rookie. Wish is now dramatically less common, inherent bonuses for everyone are out the window, and attaining that final spell level/levels is a risk not to be taken lightly.

Now, for a concrete cost to magic. Consider making all spells of 7th level or above function like corrupt/sanctified spells, requiring a sacrifice component to cast. The precise degree of punitive nature of the sacrifice will directly impact how often the spells see use in and out of combat. Particularly, look at ways to ability damage/drain casters in their casting stat. Thus, enough spamming of a spell that demands such a sacrifice removes the ability to use that spell off of that particular class' spellcasting ability.

Now there is a cost/benefit analysis for all the least-balanced spells in the game (except polymorph, which was errata'd significantly and should be handled in a more decisive manner). Can't spam time stop, wish, shapechange without potentially crippling sacrifice.

Now, the immediate rebuttal is that there are a billion ways to break even low-level spells, loopholes and spell combos galore. Granted this is gonna be problematic. The vast array of spells published in 3.x should be toned down in-setting, since access to any spell via scroll or daily prayers is horribly exploitable.

Finally, remove revivify and last breath from the game. Only True Res should avoid the level loss. Increase cost of all return-from-death stuff, with the possible exception of reincarnate, which carries significant role play and logistical risk.

Starbuck_II

2013-01-29, 03:38 PM

In particular, crafting items in 2e was insanely difficult, so magic items possessed were very likely found.

Untrue, 10% chance to lose Con. That was it and you gained Xp when you succeeded.
Yes, there was an optional quest but again optional.

Due tro risk low level magic itemsd were uncommon, but high level stuff was common. After all, if it is the same risk why not make the better stuff.

Now, for a concrete cost to magic. Consider making all spells of 7th level or above function like corrupt/sanctified spells, requiring a sacrifice component to cast. The precise degree of punitive nature of the sacrifice will directly impact how often the spells see use in and out of combat. Particularly, look at ways to ability damage/drain casters in their casting stat. Thus, enough spamming of a spell that demands such a sacrifice removes the ability to use that spell off of that particular class' spellcasting ability.

Only if affects monsters too (fair is fair).

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-29, 03:48 PM

Only if affects monsters too (fair is fair).

Fair enough, but like the current system, spell-like abilities are free of cost to use, so monsters like pit fiends and such will be fearsome opponents with their spell-likes. In terms of advantage given by magic, unless the DM is seriously stacking the enemies to challenge an optimized party, availability of powerful magic tends to favor the player characters. Especially stuff that is available out of combat to increase character wealth and other strategic advantages (Craft Contingent Spell for the win!).

EDIT: My bad on the 2e crafting rules. Super fuzzy on how things used to work, but I do remember that reaching those high levels was much more challenging, especially for non-humans. Most of the magic equipment out there was found, whereas now bought or crafted is often the norm (particularly with artificers and magewrights, which in many ways implicitly ratchet up the magic level of the world). Much less in the way of spell work arounds for the losses from dying or perma-buffs.

Tanuki Tales

2013-01-29, 03:50 PM

@Flicker: A thought if I can't find or devise something else that's just a bit farther away from "the Warp devours your soul".

@Phelix: You've given some good food for thought. But why do you limit the sacrifice/damage to only high level spells?

@Starbuck: Do you mean Monsters with class levels or innate spellcasting or SLAs or...?

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-29, 03:58 PM

@Phelix: You've given some good food for thought. But why do you limit the sacrifice/damage to only high level spells?

Feel free to apply the sacrifice all over, but eventually there will be significant depreciation in people choosing to use magic. If magic missile causes some kind of sacrifice that can ill be afforded by the very weak wiz/sorc, then a lot more people will opt to swing the sword. If this is what you want, then fine, but remember that ToB is an [incomplete] balance for martial classes compared to the existing, limitless power of magic. Nerf magic down enough and swordsages and warblades will rule the world.

Tanuki Tales

2013-01-29, 04:10 PM

Feel free to apply the sacrifice all over, but eventually there will be significant depreciation in people choosing to use magic. If magic missile causes some kind of sacrifice that can ill be afforded by the very weak wiz/sorc, then a lot more people will opt to swing the sword. If this is what you want, then fine, but remember that ToB is an [incomplete] balance for martial classes compared to the existing, limitless power of magic. Nerf magic down enough and swordsages and warblades will rule the world.

Oh, I was assuming scaling sacrifices.

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-29, 04:21 PM

Oh, I was assuming scaling sacrifices.

Even a significantly scaled back sacrifice will be bad for a low-level wizard. Assume some kind of 1d2 strength damage for magic missile. Well, as long as you only cast it once a day, no problems are likely to arise. But, when under pressure for several days in a row, you are likely to see a precipitous decrease in strength, to the extent that adventuring will be a practical difficulty. The party will need to return to town because the wiz is having trouble carrying his/her backpack. A first level wizard can ill-afford a lesser restoration pot, and s/he's likely to need one every couple of days, more if popular spells damage different abilities.

OverdrivePrime

2013-01-29, 04:22 PM

I lean toward making magic take longer to cast. Immediate spells still take the same amount of time, swift spells take a standard action, standard actions spells take a full round, and full round spells take two full rounds. (Yeah, that sucks for summoners, but ah well.)

Having spells take longer to cast means that a spellcaster is much more reliant on their allies to protect them during spellcasting. Having the spell take longer to cast means that they are much more likely to suffer spell failure. They still have phenomenal cosmic power, but they're now much more vulnerable while channeling it. An archmage still is going to have plenty of protection, but surviving to become an archmage is going to require a lot of teamwork.

Edenbeast

2013-01-29, 04:27 PM

Tanuki Tales

2013-01-29, 05:02 PM

Even a significantly scaled back sacrifice will be bad for a low-level wizard. Assume some kind of 1d2 strength damage for magic missile. Well, as long as you only cast it once a day, no problems are likely to arise. But, when under pressure for several days in a row, you are likely to see a precipitous decrease in strength, to the extent that adventuring will be a practical difficulty. The party will need to return to town because the wiz is having trouble carrying his/her backpack. A first level wizard can ill-afford a lesser restoration pot, and s/he's likely to need one every couple of days, more if popular spells damage different abilities.

Well, isn't ability damage at low levels a little severe anyway? I thought you meant something more along the lines of them getting penalties to checks or exhaustion or other effects that get worse as they continue to use magic while already suffering under an effect.

Something that by itself isn't dire but would be if handled incorrectly in the heat of combat.

DMVerdandi

2013-01-29, 07:26 PM

perilous
Lemme guess. You play or read some type of warhammer.
:smallannoyed:

Why don't you cause spells to inflict non-lethal damage for every spell level?
At first, casting is absolutely dangerous, and at 20th, It only really matters if you go nova.

Perhaps make a skill check out of trying to resist. Concentration, lets say.
If the check is passed, the damage is negated. If it is failed, they take damage as well as either Nauseated,Confused,Dazed,or Frightened(For when they look too deep past the veil and it looks back.)

Roll a d4 to determine which.

And that is how you make magic more like the perils of the warp in d20, without making them unplayable.
Also gives the players a choice. Risk the roll, or take the damage.

Arbane

2013-01-29, 07:37 PM

Here's a thought - use some sort of 'skill check or take stat damage' system for spellcasting, but give casters a reserve of 'fake' stat points they have to burn through first. So, at first level, you get one first-level spell risk-free, and at 20th, you have... a lot.

Tanuki Tales

2013-01-29, 07:42 PM

Lemme guess. You play or read some type of warhammer.
:smallannoyed:

Yes, I do. But I don't see how that has to do with anything really. It's not like Warhammer either came up with the idea of magic having its drawbacks and downsides or monopolizes it.

I mean, I even said:

@Flicker: A thought if I can't find or devise something else that's just a bit farther away from "the Warp devours your soul".

Why don't you cause spells to inflict non-lethal damage for every spell level?
At first, casting is absolutely dangerous, and at 20th, It only really matters if you go nova.

Perhaps make a skill check out of trying to resist. Concentration, lets say.
If the check is passed, the damage is negated. If it is failed, they take damage as well as either Nauseated,Confused,Dazed,or Frightened(For when they look too deep past the veil and it looks back.)

Roll a d4 to determine which.

And that is how you make magic more like the perils of the warp in d20, without making them unplayable.
Also gives the players a choice. Risk the roll, or take the damage.

That's an interesting concept to look into.

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-29, 08:04 PM

Nonlethal damage would be nice, but undead pose a problem here. Liches would be the go-to option for even neutral wizards that didn't mind some dip in the pool of ultimate power that is lichdom.:smallsigh: I guess ability damage still hits this same snag. Just go for the ravage/affliction thing and have a sacrifice component affect anything regardless of immunity. Now there is a problem with undead not naturally healing ability damage, though.

Nonlethal damage all goes away with the casting of any cure spell, right? That seems to be negligible drawback with potions and UMD being everywhere.

I was just going by the corrupt/sanctified spells as a guideline. Any imposed penalty/ability damage/status condition should be
1.) Not easy to remove. Certainly should require a significant action in combat. See also problems with that ToB thing, Iron Heart Surge, was it? At higher levels, there are a bunch of spells that blanket cure everything, so the wider the variety of effects isn't necessarily gonna be better.

2.) These penalties or w/e also have to hit clerics, since divine magic is just as broken as arcane. Thus, something a little more formidable than nonlethal is probably called for.

3.) Unlike the stuff for corrupt/sanctified, I would have the damage or w/e from the sacrifice take place at the completion of the casting of the spell, not at the end of the spell's duration. Thus we avoid any insanity surrounding persisted spells not having any sacrifice until bedtime or the next morning.

Finally, on a slightly different note, I also changed all of the CL requirements for the Item Creation feats, generally eyeballing them to about x2 the listed level, except for the easily consumable stuff like scrolls and potions. I wanted to do this more for economic reasons involving supply and demand of magic swords, but a similar mechanic could be used to reduce the overall magic level of the world, since fewer npcs could qualify for Item Creation feats, thus less items.

Newcomer

2013-01-29, 08:15 PM

I started this when I'd only read a few replies, so the idea of casting checks has already been raised. Here's my take (though I'm still a novice, and I've only played 3.5):

I like the idea I've seen floated of requiring checks to cast spells, especially the higher-level ones. Introduce some variation on a caster level check, possibly with penalties for failure, where a spellcaster is likely to succeed on spell levels they've mastered, but it's risky to try the newer levels of spells. You can combine that with OverdrivePrime's 'take longer to cast' idea, and there could be penalties to cast spells at the 'normal' (or faster) speed, but bonuses for casting through time-consuming rituals. You could do away with Quicken Spell, and instead offer a feat that grants a small bonus on checks to cast more quickly.

The main thing that accomplishes is making magic less reliable, and it also eats spell slots.

If you require checks to successfully prepare higher-level spells, otherwise losing the spell slot through an unsuccessful partial casting, that might encourage players to spend their spell slots on lower-level spells more often.

Anyway, that's all I've got right now.

Tanuki Tales

2013-01-29, 08:35 PM

Here's the idea I'm working with currently, thanks to the feedback from this thread and a common "fix" I've seen for magic:

Change 1: Usage of a Spell Point system
Casting classes get a spell point pool determined by the kind of class they have (I'm thinking 10 x level and 6 x level at the moment).
Spells cost an amount of points to cast equal to twice their level -1 (as psionic powers).

Change 2: Implement supplement pools and caps
The casters can take 1 point of Constitution damage (this cannot be healed with magic and immunity to Constitution damage does not prevent damage dealt in this manner. This damage heals at a rate of 1 point every 24 hours) to add 3 points to their pool. Points gained in this manner can't go over their maximum for the level and vanish after an hour. Undead and Constructs use Charisma instead and are destroyed if it hits 0.
The casters have a pool of "Fake Con" equal to one-quarter their total levels in a casting class (minimum 1). This pool refills at a rate of one point every 24 hours.
The casters have a Spell per day limit equal to their casting stat. After reaching their daily cap, any further spells cast require them to make a check. If they pass, the spell is cast normally and they get a negative status (sickened or something and it'll flat ignore immunity to the condition) for a number of rounds or minutes equal to twice the spell level. If they fail, they gain a number of Karma points equal to the spell's level. The caster can willingly fail this check. [Thinking of changing this to either have it key off spell levels instead of point expenditures or have it be Stat + 1/2 or full character level.]
The caster has a Karma point cap equal to their total level. Once they reach or exceed that cap, it is reset to 0; the caster then must roll all rolls twice for the next 24 hours and take the lower of the two results.

Thoughts? This is really rough and the numbers and durations are something I'm still playing around with.

NichG

2013-01-29, 08:35 PM

Here's a thought:

Casting spells draws the attention of spirits - not necessarily 'good' or 'bad', but meddlesome. The process of spell preparation cleanses the caster of all such attention at the start of the day, so they begin fresh. However, as they cast spells over the course of the day this attention builds up.

Every time a caster casts a spell, it draws the attention of a number of spirits equal to the spell's level. This does not immediately do anything, although casters are so used to dealing with this that they can tell roughly how many spirits are following them and other casters (possibly via a Spellcraft check). For every increment of spirits equal to the caster's CL (so every 5 spirits for a 5th level Wizard, for example) the DM can choose to add +1/-1 to a single roll that in some way involves the caster (to their save, to the save of an enemy against their spell, etc). This dissipates the attention of said spirits. The DM can save these up, spend them gradually, whatever, but they go away when the caster next prepares spells.

Similarly in the case of enemy casters, the party may choose when to spend their bad luck.

So a Lv1 wizard will be dealing with maybe 3 such glitches during the day. A Lv10 wizard might deal with 6 or 7 such glitches, but they also have more powers available to offset the danger.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-01-29, 08:59 PM

Why not simply give the campaign world the wild-magic trait?

Every spell cast requires a caster level check of DC 15+spell level or does something wierd; per the table in the DMG.

jindra34

2013-01-29, 09:08 PM

Why not simply give the campaign world the wild-magic trait?

Every spell cast requires a caster level check of DC 15+spell level or does something wierd; per the table in the DMG.

You realize that caster level goes up faster then spell level?

TuggyNE

2013-01-29, 09:18 PM

Nonlethal damage all goes away with the casting of any cure spell, right? That seems to be negligible drawback with potions and UMD being everywhere.

Actually, no; it's healed simultaneously with lethal damage and for the same amount.

avr

2013-01-29, 09:22 PM

Change 2 -
The casting point pool + fake con is a serious buff to the number of spells a caster gets in a day at lower levels. Especially if they're willing to take 1 point of real con damage as well and heal it over the next day. If I'm reading it right thats at least 16 1st level spells/day for a 1st level caster.

Fake con that heals over 4 days may turn the 15-minute working day into 15 minutes of work every few days.

A caster who hits their Karma cap willingly or otherwise is even more strongly incentivised to hang around in the back ranks and cast spells (which can require no rolls on his/her part). I'm not sure this is the effect you're aiming for.

Tanuki Tales

2013-01-29, 09:36 PM

-snip-

Lowered the points per Con to 3 from 5, reduced the Fake Con pool to 1-5 from 1-20 and they only replenish at a rate of 1 point per day.

Santra

2013-01-29, 09:38 PM

Why not simply give the campaign world the wild-magic trait?

Every spell cast requires a caster level check of DC 15+spell level or does something wierd; per the table in the DMG.

That tends to make campaigns "WACKY!" more than it hurts spellcasters.

I prefer DC 15+spell level+1 for every 2 spells cast since you prepared your spells fort save any time you cast a spell. A success means that nothing bad happens a failure causes you to become fatigued. If the character was already fatigued they become exhausted instead. If they were exhausted they fall unconscious for a number of rounds equal to the level of the spell cast. This effect can not be removed through magical means.

I think this is how we did it under a DM once. I could be wrong about the save DC as I was playing a barbarian.

Edit: Just remembered an additional rule to this. Applying a metamagic feat raised the save DC by 2 for each additional spell level that the feat would (pre modifying by other abilities or feats) be raised.

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-29, 10:00 PM

Lowered the points per Con to 3 from 5, reduced the Fake Con pool to 1-5 from 1-20 and they only replenish at a rate of 1 point per day.

Not sure about using Constitution, as it has zero to do with casting. Burning Con has little impact on a high level caster that can largely avoid damage with his/her spells. The more you burn, the more spells you can cast, but at higher levels, if this is at all like psionics and power points, supply outweighs demand by a sizable amount. The more spells you can cast, the less you have to worry about someone getting to you.

Having the damage keyed to the key casting stat is probably better, specifically because this avoids the problem of undead spellcasters defaulting to Charisma for their extra spell points, unbalanced because of the irregularity. If all spellcasters use the same stat, this establishes some equity, but if undead are different for some reason, imbalance arises.

Construct casters would face a similar problem, but without the precedent of using Charisma. Not sure how this would work.

Numerous other systems have instituted spell pool stuff. Psionics is functionally more flexible than spells, though, so I'm not sure ditching Vancian spellcasting is part of a fix that directly reduces magic dominance.

RagnaroksChosen

2013-01-29, 10:04 PM

I've played around with some of the alternate spell casting stuff... as well as trying to make 3.5 spells more 2nd ed feeling... Ya know things like bouncing lightning bolts, aging haste, healing was necromancy, etc...
The best way to simulate 2nd ed spells IMO is to literally look up the 2nd ed spell and use the spell description from the 2nd ed book.
Now this can create some weird spell rules. So you have to use some common sense. I have used this method a lot actually. Both with new and older players with great success... Helps to have multiple copies of the 2nd ed rule book.

Also I know there are a few 3rd party d20 systems that had spells deal nonlethal damage I unfortunately am a bit altered in the brain atm and can't remember. I want to say it was shadow run d20 or maybe midnight?

AuraTwilight

2013-01-29, 10:09 PM

Make all Magic into Wild Magic, all the time.

It's probably not good for the game, but it'll be hilarious!

Arcanist

2013-01-29, 10:11 PM

Magic Fatigue? Use Flick's suggestion of using 2nd edition magic consequences? :smallconfused:

There really isn't much you can do wrong with making magic dangerous beyond just blanket banning or making it downright unusable... One time I had the bright idea of experimenting with spells to require a Spellcraft check to cast spells successfully (10 + minimum caster level required + Spell level). Magic was still a win button, but wasn't as reliable.

Tanuki Tales

2013-01-29, 10:17 PM

Not sure about using Constitution, as it has zero to do with casting.

It's the old "using my life force as fuel for my magic" trope. They're burning up their very life to keep slinging spells. I was thinking that ability drain would be too harsh.

Burning Con has little impact on a high level caster that can largely avoid damage with his/her spells. The more you burn, the more spells you can cast, but at higher levels, if this is at all like psionics and power points, supply outweighs demand by a sizable amount. The more spells you can cast, the less you have to worry about someone getting to you.

Well, the current math has them 143 shy of end-game psionic casters and I don't see how likely it is to see a caster having higher than 16-18 Con on Average (unless you're playing an Orc with that one Archetype that changes your casting to key off Con). So with their fake pool capping out at 5 points, if they dip into this method, they're only going to get a few more higher spells.

Having the damage keyed to the key casting stat is probably better, specifically because this avoids the problem of undead spellcasters defaulting to Charisma for their extra spell points, unbalanced because of the irregularity. If all spellcasters use the same stat, this establishes some equity, but if undead are different for some reason, imbalance arises.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, sorry.

Construct casters would face a similar problem, but without the precedent of using Charisma. Not sure how this would work.

I personally lump Constructs with Undead, keying them off Charisma.

Numerous other systems have instituted spell pool stuff. Psionics is functionally more flexible than spells, though, so I'm not sure ditching Vancian spellcasting is part of a fix that directly reduces magic dominance.

Connecting spells of all levels to the exact same resource pool means that casting any spell of any level is going to potentially put a strain on your other spells of any level. At least that's how I understood it.

Acanous

2013-01-29, 10:23 PM

Tanuki Tales

2013-01-29, 10:25 PM

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-29, 10:32 PM

Many of these proposed fixes would simply not work. Status conditions? Ability damage/drain? Those are things casters go out of their way to be immune to by lv 11. Most succeed, because there's spells for that.

You need some way to inflict the penalties even when immune, for starters, and still have a way for them to recover...without making it something a lv 4 spell can do with a standard action.

I think Tanuki and I have directly stated that this damage/drain/status effect can't or shouldn't be fixable by other means. It also pretty much has to bypass racial/type related or other granted immunity. Iron Heart Surge and Faster Healing feats also need to be dealt with.

In my scheme of modeling off of corrupt/sanctified spells, I envisioned allowing natural recovery of this drain/damage only, and I didn't really contemplate a supply of "fake stat x" to come off first. Problems emerge when using this sacrifice component at low levels, since no one wants to be a level 1 wiz if using spells routinely will cripple/stupefy you. Same way that haste saw much more limited use in 2e, eventually giving way to everyone gunning for speed items, which are useful in 3e, but not gamechangers since haste is now super cool.

So to implement a cost at low spell levels, the discussion incorporated a buffer of fake stat points to burn through. Then spell pool came up. Amidst a myriad of other interesting suggestions, I have to say.

Agent 451

2013-01-29, 10:42 PM

Arcanist

2013-01-29, 10:44 PM

There's always the Curse of the Magi variant rule from Dragonlance. Fort save + spell level for each spell cast. First fail gives fatigue, then exhausted, then finally if you fail a third roll you drop unconscious.

ooo I actually like this variant :smallamused: It's a completely valid reason for why Magic is rarely used... I'm curious if anyone has ever made a successful Blood Magic variant :smalltongue:

Tanuki Tales

2013-01-29, 10:47 PM

There's always the Curse of the Magi variant rule from Dragonlance. Fort save + spell level for each spell cast. First fail gives fatigue, then exhausted, then finally if you fail a third roll you drop unconscious.

And if they're Undead?

Or have a Contingencied Arcane version of Lesser Restoration?

Or a Cleric buddy?

GreenETC

2013-01-29, 10:54 PM

The real question becomes:

Why should the Mage care about the penalty? I'm sure if someone is willing to play a Wizard for the ability to cast magic and knows enough to make the Wizard go off right, they'll probably just take the penalties constantly until they're dead. I know I would always continue using magic if it was my thing, even if it meant I started dying little by little.

RagnaroksChosen

2013-01-29, 10:54 PM

I think Tanuki and I have directly stated that this damage/drain/status effect can't or shouldn't be fixable by other means. It also pretty much has to bypass racial/type related or other granted immunity. Iron Heart Surge and Faster Healing feats also need to be dealt with.

In my scheme of modeling off of corrupt/sanctified spells, I envisioned allowing natural recovery of this drain/damage only, and I didn't really contemplate a supply of "fake stat x" to come off first. Problems emerge when using this sacrifice component at low levels, since no one wants to be a level 1 wiz if using spells routinely will cripple/stupefy you. Same way that haste saw much more limited use in 2e, eventually giving way to everyone gunning for speed items, which are useful in 3e, but not gamechangers since haste is now super cool.

So to implement a cost at low spell levels, the discussion incorporated a buffer of fake stat points to burn through. Then spell pool came up. Amidst a myriad of other interesting suggestions, I have to say.

I have to agree with you here.. When we used a nonlethal system we has it ignore every thing... Plus it allows the GM to create cool magic items that help elevate the caster's negative... we played a game that was essentially the PC's vs two other factions for control over a wizard hat because it reduced the nonlethal dmg similar to DR.

RagnaroksChosen

2013-01-29, 10:56 PM

There's always the Curse of the Magi variant rule from Dragonlance. Fort save + spell level for each spell cast. First fail gives fatigue, then exhausted, then finally if you fail a third roll you drop unconscious.

Is this in the core Dragon lance book?

Edit:
OMG this rule is awesome.. Has any one used it?

Agent 451

2013-01-29, 10:57 PM

And if they're Undead?

That's a good question. Probably why it's a variant rule in 3.5's Dragonlance.

On a somewhat related aside, has anyone ever used the sanity rules in the SRD?

@Ragnarok: Yes, page 89.

Update: Tanuki, I found this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?action=printpage;topic=4182.0) with a quick google search; According to Cam Banks, none of the design staff ever used it.

Tanuki Tales

2013-01-29, 11:26 PM

Update: Tanuki, I found this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?action=printpage;topic=4182.0) with a quick google search; According to Cam Banks, none of the design staff ever used it.

I'm amused they call it both a hard nerf and an unfair nerf, when the save is so abysmal and so easily circumvented that it isn't really much of a nerf at all, just some minor extra book keeping.

But anyways, thanks for the link.

Agent 451

2013-01-29, 11:42 PM

No prob. You'll love this one (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?action=printpage;topic=4247.0), in which Cam calls the curese "full of fail" :smalltongue:

Mystra

2013-01-30, 12:09 AM

I'm curious of what ways my fellow DMs/GMs have made magic more perilous to use and less of an instant win button for nearly any situation in their games. I've been trying to ponder a way to do this, to find a happy medium between how dangerous magic could be in pre-3.X/Pathfinder editions and how passive it became in the d20 era.

Well, I just use the simple and obvious: use all the 2E stuff. And what is great: they make sense Radically change your bodies shape and you need to make a system shock check to live. Assume another form and you might be overwhelmed by the mentality of the new form. Teleport and you might end up off target. Change shape and your items do not change with you.

Though I also add in the ones that should be there too, like:

.Contact with some minds is dangerous, the mentality of a mind can leak out and effect you. For example, reading the mind of a demon will make you more chaotic.

.Taking the life force of a creature can have effects on you. Use vampric touch to take the life force of dragon and you might get overwhelmed.

Wrathof42

2013-01-30, 12:37 AM

Kelb_Panthera

2013-01-30, 12:50 AM

You realize that caster level goes up faster then spell level?Yes, but not by enough. The DC for a ninth level spell is 24. At 17th level you make that on a 7 at worst or, if you've boosted your CL, maybe as low as 1 or 2. At the other extreme the DC 16 for a first level spell means a first level caster will have more mishaps than properly fired spells. The middle would be dc 20 for 5th level spells giving a ninth level caster something close to even odds. That mid-level caster has still got a chance of flubbing even a simple first level spell.

I think this nicely represents the idea that as casters grow in skill they learn to wield magic more reliably. Add a clause to arcane mastery saying it can't be applied to the CL checks for planar magic trait interactions and you're good to go.

{{scrubbed}}

Given how very much more powerful spell casting is than everything else, this idea falls flat.

Beside that point is the fact that the OP never said it was for balance but rather to recover the feel that magic once had and has since lost.

In older editions using magic was difficult and dangerous and some gamers liked that and want it back.

Santra

2013-01-30, 12:55 AM

{{scrubbed}}

Magic overshadows everything else in D&D so giving them a downside to having PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER fits well in line with what they should have. Especially since that limiter was already there in AD&D and it disappeared for 3.0+. Next time please refrain from posting unneeded comments that were specifically asked to be left out of the thread.

Tanuki Tales

2013-01-30, 12:57 AM

So anyways; further thoughts on the rules that I'm working on and posted a page back?

Arcanist

2013-01-30, 01:08 AM

{{scrubbed}}

Off-Topic
I remember one of my friends suggested that we convert all spells above 6th level into Incantations and gave all casters the Bard spell progression, but certain 7th+ spells didn't make much sense as being Incantations like Meteor Swarm (in the long run it was mostly Evocation spells really). Thinking back I'd probably just allow the players to perform the Incantation and get the spell as a 3,2,1-day SLA (3 for 7th, 2 for 8th and 1 for 9th). Ah well :smallsmile:

Tanuki Tales

2013-01-30, 01:12 AM

I remember one of my friends suggested that we convert all spells above 6th level into Incantations and gave all casters the Bard spell progression, but certain 7th+ spells didn't make much sense as being Incantations like Meteor Swarm (in the long run it was mostly Evocation spells really). Thinking back I'd probably just allow the players to perform the Incantation and get the spell as a 3,2,1-day SLA (3 for 7th, 2 for 8th and 1 for 9th). Ah well :smallsmile:

This is actually on topic. :smallbiggrin:

Can you explain what you mean by Incantations? I only know of Warlock and DFA ones and I don't think you meant them.

Arcanist

2013-01-30, 01:14 AM

This is actually on topic. :smallbiggrin:

Can you explain what you mean by Incantations? I only know of Warlock and DFA ones and I don't think you meant them.

Everything you need to know my find chum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm)

We thought of using Skill checks = Spell level or something like that.

EDIT: You're talking about Invocations. Entirely different sub-system (and an actually good one at that!)

Tanuki Tales

2013-01-30, 01:22 AM

Everything you need to know my find chum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm)

We thought of using Skill checks = Spell level or something like that.

Those are really neat optional rules.

So you gave every class capable of spells Bard progression?

EDIT: You're talking about Invocations. Entirely different sub-system (and an actually good one at that!)

Aaand there's my proof I'm starting to get tired. xD

Arcanist

2013-01-30, 01:41 AM

Those are really neat optional rules.

So you gave every class capable of spells Bard progression?

Yep (except for ones that only get up to 4th level spells). Works out fairly nicely on paper (never got to test it). Casters keep a majority of there power, it just comes online later.

I do wish to see this in practice one day so tell me if it works for you :smallsmile:

there's my proof I'm starting to get tired. xD

Nap time? :smalltongue:

Tanuki Tales

2013-01-30, 01:48 AM

Yep (except for ones that only get up to 4th level spells). Works out fairly nicely on paper (never got to test it). Casters keep a majority of there power, it just comes online later.

I do wish to see this in practice one day so tell me if it works for you :smallsmile:

I might just try it over the book keeping nightmare I came up with. :smallbiggrin:

But how exactly did you plan to allow the introduction of them? Do casters just innately know how to craft Incantations and they just have to construct them like they were researching a spell?

And you're right, evocation is a little hard to do with these things. You'd need to go big or not go at all.

Nap time? :smalltongue:

Bed time more like it. But got to wait for the little lady to get home from shooting pool.

Arcanist

2013-01-30, 01:54 AM

I might just try it over the book keeping nightmare I came up with. :smallbiggrin:

But how exactly did you plan to allow the introduction of them? Do casters just innately know how to craft Incantations and they just have to construct them like they were researching a spell?

And you're right, evocation is a little hard to do with these things. You'd need to go big or not go at all.

We introduced them like we'd introduce anything else in the world. It was always there, you just never really did anything with it :smalltongue:

On a side note: I'd personally never allow the PC's to homebrew incantations... It's like Epic Spellcasting. If you're going to use it, moderate it highly.

Tanuki Tales

2013-01-30, 02:06 AM

We introduced them like we'd introduce anything else in the world. It was always there, you just never really did anything with it :smalltongue:

On a side note: I'd personally never allow the PC's to homebrew incantations... It's like Epic Spellcasting. If you're going to use it, moderate it highly.

How would this affect play from level 13 to level 20 though? Can the PCs still take on CR 13 and up threats when limited to 6th or lower spells for the most part?

ArcturusV

2013-01-30, 02:20 AM

Should be able to. There's a lot of twisted spells that, if you're smart, can completely neutralize an encounter at 6th level and below.

Heck, Silent Image, level 1. Effective at any point in your career if used properly and if the DM doesn't just give every single enemy supernatural senses to instantly nullify it or DM Fiat Disbelieves it automatically.

An option I'd like to see you put into the system you've got on page 1? Time and Implements. This is something I have used a few times in a few games I kitbashed. Never really had a complaint. Basically if they take their time with a spell, say casting a normally Standard Action spell as a Full Round spell instead, it reduces the penalties. If they require additional implements beyond the usual Material Component, Somatic, Verbal component, it lowers the penalties. Implements usually in games like that I played being personal arcane/divine tools imbued with your own magical essence in an extended rite, usually costing something to create. Time, money, XP, losing a spell slot as long as you have the Implement, cutting deals with Demons, depends on what the player and I hash out for severity, the more severe, the better the implement is at reducing penalties.

Or you can just use it NOW, accept the pain and drawback for the ability to go "off the cuff" with a spell. Using the system as is. Or you can lose your ability to go Supernova and melt the faces of everything within 2 miles at the speed of an instant, and be still strong enough to do things all day long, with planning and moderation.

Wrathof42

2013-01-30, 02:33 AM

SowZ

2013-01-30, 02:55 AM

I like the way the Warhammer Fantasy RPG dealt with magic, where you had to roll a channeling check to see if you are able to cast the spell. And when you failed things could go horribly wrong.
I don't know how to implement this into dnd, but here goes one idea:
let's say you roll against a channel DC of 10+<spell level>, with a d20+<ability mod in casting stat>. Anything below the DC and the spell fails, and a natural 1 is a fail with dramatic consequences.

Wouldn't work, really. If the blowback is big enough to kill you, it feels cheap and dumb when you just randomly die. And even if it isn't enough to kill you, dramatic consequences happening 5% of the time is a lot.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-01-30, 03:06 AM

That's an awful rebuttal. Casters already have built-in limitations. They have the lowest hd, the worst BAB, horrible skill points, at best two good saves, but often one, and let's not forget a general lack of proficiencies or the ability to cast spells in armor for those of the arcane bent. Spells themselves can be saved against, spells have to get through SR, some spells have to roll attack rolls, and some spells even combine two or more of these limitations. Also there's the whole limited number per day thing which is kind of a huge deal. You honestly think that adding another blanket limitation to that list of "you have to make _____ check"or suffer will fix anything? You don't play many casters, huh? Those "limitations" are trivial to bypass if they're actually limiting at all. Smallest HD: false; Clerics and druids both have d8's. Low-BAB: irrelevant; rays and touch spells don't offer itterative attacks and target touch ac. One good save: pretty much always will; -the- save to have if you only get one good one. They also have in-class ways to gain immunity to nearly anything that might require a save to begin with. Limited spells per day: from level 3 you can guarantee one spell per encounter and a skillfully played caster can end most encounters with one spell.

Limitations have to matter to actually be limiting. The "limitations" you've listed don't matter.

On a personal note; the wild-magic idea isn't strictly a nerf. There's over a one in four chance of the spell actually manifesting -stronger- than normal.

What I'm NOT saying is that it's being a bad dm to WANT to run a game in which magic is less awesome in some respect, because despite the limits I listed magic is clearly good...because it's freaking magic people! I mean come on if it weren't awesome it just wouldn't work. However what I AM saying is that tacking on a limitation such as those suggested here to a 3.X game you're running while allowing everything non-caster to remain untouched is flat out silly and more than a little anti-fun if there's a player in your group who wants to be a wizard or cleric. You're making the mistake of thinking your idea of fun is the only valid one. Some people -like- having things be difficult and magic makes everything less difficult when used as-is. Making magic unreliable makes the game more difficult for the whole party and some people think that's a good thing and more fun than the way it is by default.

If you want your magic to be more like 2nd then run a 2nd edition game. Just remember that the general job of the classic GOD wizard in the party isn't to steamroll every encounter, it's to use his limited resources to help the rest of the party deal with the magic of whatever their facing and make it a more level or even favorable playing field.

And here you're saying "throw out the baby with the bathwater." What if the feel of magic is the -only- thing you liked about 2nd ed compared to 3rd? If I like how 3.5 handles everything -but- magic, why should I throw out everything I like about the system and use a different one instead of changing the one thing I don't like to be more to my liking?

You're approaching this from a very narrow-minded angle and I think we've derailed this thread far enough. Don't you?

Wrathof42

2013-01-30, 03:48 AM

Arcanist

2013-01-30, 05:01 AM

=>Wrathof42

That's an awful rebuttal.

Oh, I can already tell this is going to be a treat :smallamused:

Casters already have built-in limitations.

THIS IS HOW I KNEW :smallbiggrin:

They have the lowest hd

Displacement, Blink, Luminous Armor, Mage's Armor, Shield. Seriously, you have so many defensive buffs that you have no real excuse for getting hit.

the worst BAB

Most Wizard spells that require the use of BAB are touch spells.

horrible skill points

2+Int Modifier (you know, there main casting stat) skill points. Kind of moot really, I CAN always just summon something else to perform skills for me... Not that big a deal...

at best two good saves, but often one

See defensive buffs.

let's not forget a general lack of proficiencies or the ability to cast spells in armor for those of the arcane bent.

See defensive buffs.

Side note: For reference. I have never written any weapon larger then an adamantine dagger on my Wizard's character sheets... And even then It was for torture and breaking objects not made out of adamantine (or with less hardness) which means proficiencies are again worthless to me... I generally just Chaos Shuffle the proficiencies away if I can :smallsigh:

Spells themselves can be saved against

Forcecage? The Orb Spells? Being a Red Wizard? Being a Tainted Scholar? There is a point where your DC can be so high they have no chance of surviving sort of a nat 20

spells have to get through SR

Forcecage, The Orb spells, Gate, Shapechange, Time Stop. Generally if you are relying on SR and Saving Throw spells there is a problem with your build.

some spells have to roll attack rolls

Yes and most (if not all) are touch attacks.

some spells even combine two or more of these limitations.

And your a sucker if you use those more then your non-Saving Throw non-SR spells

Also there's the whole limited number per day thing which is kind of a huge deal.

36 spells per day (not counting cantrips) isn't enough for you? God forbid you make Ice Assassins of yourself to cast for you and then have that Ice Assassin makes Ice Assassins and so on and so forth. :smallamused:

The point here is, is that you are, at some point, never going to run out of spells.

You honestly think that adding another blanket limitation to that list of "you have to make _____ check"or suffer will fix anything?

Yes. Because it adds a blanket that you just can't say "No" to through spell abuse.

What I'm NOT saying is that it's being a bad dm to WANT to run a game in which magic is less awesome in some respect, because despite the limits I listed magic is clearly good...because it's freaking magic people! I mean come on if it weren't awesome it just wouldn't work. However what I AM saying is that tacking on a limitation such as those suggested here to a 3.X game you're running while allowing everything non-caster to remain untouched is flat out silly and more than a little anti-fun if there's a player in your group who wants to be a wizard or cleric.

If there is a person in the group that wants to be a Wizard or a Cleric despite knowing the limitations they will face then good for them! Actually I encourage them to play a Wizard or a Cleric because then it lets me know if the system needs to be fixed or not. I for one actually like for magic to be difficult to comprehend and use otherwise we just get the Tippyverse (I've played a campaign like that, it's actually pretty fun :smallbiggrin:), but that isn't my personal style. I'm not trying to force anyone to play in any one particular playstyle, I'm just offering a fix to a problem that someone else noticed :smalltongue:

Needless to say I'm not going to stand being called a bully because I laid out a clear limitation and the player wished to accept that limitation. They willingly drank the bottle marked poison, I am under no liability to provide them the antidote (although I do allow retraining in my games...).

If you want your magic to be more like 2nd then run a 2nd edition game. Just remember that the general job of the classic GOD wizard in the party isn't to steamroll every encounter, it's to use his limited resources to help the rest of the party deal with the magic of whatever their facing and make it a more level or even favorable playing field.

... WHAT!? This is a very narrow view. I like the Arcanist class from 2nd edition, does this mean I am now forever forced to play as an Arcanist from 2nd edition and banned from playing 3.5? No! In fact I should be allowed to upgrade the class from 2nd edition to 3.5 (I actually did!)! Just because I don't like how 3.5 handles magic doesn't mean I have to throw everything else out.

Playing a God Wizard and playing a Batman Wizard are two totally different things. A God Wizard is a Wizard that makes the rest of the party much more powerful through buffs that they can also use to effect themselves as well. Mostly though abusing AoE and Mass spells (REACH CHAIN TELEPORT!).

A Batman Wizard (or Schrodinger's Wizard) effectively has everything they will ever need ever and can pretty much steam roll through everything in front of them given enough time (which really stops being a factor once you account for Uncanny Forethought). Generally this is more likely to do that Ice Assassin chain I mentioned earlier.

While it's true that clerics and druids have less of a problem when it comes to hd it's stupid to just say "FALSE!" and point those two out as casters that don't get the shaft in one particular aspect of their character. Plenty of casters out there in 3.5 DO get the measly d4 and there's a very good reason PF upped it to a d6, namely because a d4 is horrible. As I said earlier, although I guess not clearly enough, is that I'm not saying T1 isn't T1. You are however doing a grave disservice to T2's-4 in saying that the one glitterdust or web an encounter a low level caster could throw out is so infinitely better than anything they could accomplish.

It is false though. They have a Decent BAB, a Decent HD, Decent Saves, Decent skill points, Decent Skill list. Sure, most casters get hit with the measly d4 HD, but at the end of the day it really doesn't matter because even then they have a response to that.

Now you're bringing up Tier's which really have nothing to do with this conversation. A Caster by any other Tier is just as broken. The Tier list was compiled with measurements of variability and flexibility.

If the Wizard can run around all day blowing stuff up. but meets one thing he can't blow up, leaves, takes an 8 hour nap and then has a new bag of tricks to try on the thing he couldn't blow up yesterday. By comparison a Sorcerer can run around all day blowing stuff up, but then when he finds something he can't blow up he's kind of screwed since he can't change his bag of tricks.

Magic is highly overpowered in 3.5. If you can cast (even if it's from a small list) you can win.

As far as fun is concerned, well I thought it was apparent in that whole it's anti-fun if you have a player who wants to play a caster going into it. If what you want is to run around as a bunch of core straight classed fighters then by all means go for it. There isn't a reason why you'd need to make wizards or clerics worse in order to accomplish this however.

That is ridiculous. If the player wants to be a caster nobody is stopping him, but him/herself. Additional rules? No excuse, if you want to play it, then you would play it. :smallsmile:

How would this affect play from level 13 to level 20 though? Can the PCs still take on CR 13 and up threats when limited to 6th or lower spells for the most part?

A lot of high powered spells still exist between 1st and 6th level. Look through the core spell list and see what you can do with only spells 1-6th for any caster. This doesn't really do much to Druids anyhow considering they still have Polymorph at will Wild Shape :smalltongue:

Kelb_Panthera

2013-01-30, 06:04 AM

I think we could derail it quite a bit further as it's really quite on track.

While it's true that clerics and druids have less of a problem when it comes to hd it's stupid to just say "FALSE!" and point those two out as casters that don't get the shaft in one particular aspect of their character. Plenty of casters out there in 3.5 DO get the measly d4 and there's a very good reason PF upped it to a d6, namely because a d4 is horrible. As I said earlier, although I guess not clearly enough, is that I'm not saying T1 isn't T1. You are however doing a grave disservice to T2's-4 in saying that the one glitterdust or web an encounter a low level caster could throw out is so infinitely better than anything they could accomplish.

As far as fun is concerned, well I thought it was apparent in that whole it's anti-fun if you have a player who wants to play a caster going into it. If what you want is to run around as a bunch of core straight classed fighters then by all means go for it. There isn't a reason why you'd need to make wizards or clerics worse in order to accomplish this however.

Seriously? I only named cleric and druid because they're in the player's handbook and they make up half of the fullcasters therein.

Cleric d8
druid d8
wiz d4
sorc d4
favored soul d8
spirit shaman d8
shaman d8
archivist d6
shugenja d6
warmage d6
wu jen d4
beguiler d6
dread necromancer d6

I count 3 out of 13 having d4's. That strikes me as somewhat less than most. Even if you meant arcanists only, it's still only 3 out of 6. Half isn't most either, last I checked. This isn't even counting the other casters that don't get 9th level spells, like the bard (d6), the paladin (d10), the hexblade (d10), the ranger (d8), the warlock and dragonfire adept (both d6's) or a handful of others.

In any case, arcanists are better equiped than -any- class to protect their tiny HD so it's not relevant anyway.

GreenSerpent

2013-01-30, 06:55 AM

Arcanist

2013-01-30, 08:03 AM

In any case, arcanists are better equiped than -any- class to protect their tiny HD so it's not relevant anyway.

I'm actually curious how well at defending themselves the Wujen are in terms of defensive buffs? Just out of curiosity of course :smalltongue:

jindra34

2013-01-30, 08:16 AM

Has anyone considered working Ability Burn in somehow (can only be healed by natural over-time healing, in the Expanded Psionics Handbook)?

Changing Corrupt and Sanctified spells to deal Ability Burn instead of Ability Drain or Damage would be a good start. You want to cast Greater Luminous Armour? Fine, but expect to be considerably weaker for the next few days.

Honestly Ability Burn is the best term for it. And I'd say take Spell Level in Burn to either CON or casting stat chosen when casting, with a DC 10 con check, reducing by 1 the Burn for each (full) Spell Level of success.

Tanuki Tales

2013-01-30, 12:10 PM

A lot of high powered spells still exist between 1st and 6th level. Look through the core spell list and see what you can do with only spells 1-6th for any caster. This doesn't really do much to Druids anyhow considering they still have Polymorph at will Wild Shape :smalltongue:

Well, to be honest, while this thread is 3.P for the sake of the breadth of research I'm conducting here, the end results will be applied in a pure Pathfinder game. So Polymorph and Wildshape were two things they successfully nerfed. :smalltongue:

It's been a while since I looked into which spells always won/how Wizards are awesome threads (it gave me a headache honestly), so would you mind enlightening me which 1-6 spells could down a Balor, Pit Fiend or Wyrm (in this case, 3.X spells are fine; I can just compare them to their PF versions or analogues)?

[QUOTE=GreenSerpent;14620182]Has anyone considered working Ability Burn in somehow (can only be healed by natural over-time healing, in the Expanded Psionics Handbook)?

Well, my magic limiting rules on page 1 turned Ability damage into Ability burn....kind of.

I'll be reworking those and posting a newer one later.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-01-30, 01:02 PM

I'm actually curious how well at defending themselves the Wujen are in terms of defensive buffs? Just out of curiosity of course :smalltongue:

It's not the most stellar list, but it's got a couple of the usual suspects. Energy resistance granting effects, blur and displacement, protection from <alignment>, shield, stone skin, and a couple others.

It's also got a decent selection of BFC spells and the summon monster line.

They're nowhere near as robust as a wizard in the casting department, but they're still more than adequate to the task of curb-stomping meleers that think they're equal to mages.

Arcanist

2013-01-30, 03:24 PM

Tanuki Tales

2013-01-30, 04:05 PM

Alright, take two:

Spellcasting

Casting classes that previously had full progression (such as the Wizard, Cleric or Druid) now have the spellcasting progression of a Bard.
Vancian casting is replaced by a spell point system. All spellcasting classes have a pool of spell points equal to six times their total levels in their spellcasting class. Spells cost a number of spell points to cast equal to twice their level minus one.
A character can willingly take one point of Constitution damage (Charisma for Undead and Constructs who lack a Constitution score) to gain three spell points in their pool. Spell points gained in this manner cannot exceed their maximum amount for their level and vanish if not used after one hour expires. Damage done to the character in this manner cannot be mitigated in any way and bypasses immunity to such types of damage. The damage heals at a rate of one point per twenty four hours.

Caps and Limitations

A caster possesses a pool of buffer points equal to one quarter their total levels in their casting class (minimum 1). Buffer points can be spent in the place of the caster taking ability damage to fill their spell point pool. Buffer points replenish at a rate of one per every twenty four hours.
A caster has a limit on the amount of spells they can caster per day without any negative side effects. This limit is equal to the ability statistic that they use for casting. If the character casts more spell levels in one day than this limit, they must roll a d20 (adding one quarter their total level in their casting class [minimum +1]) against a DC of 5 + the spell's level + the number of previous checks in this manner they've made that day. If the caster passes the check, the spell casts as normal and they become fatigued (this ignores mitigation or immunity) [if they are already fatigued, they become exhausted and if exhausted, they fall unconscious for the next 24 hours]. If they fail the check, the spell casts as normal but expends twice the normal amount of spell points and the caster gains a number of Karma marks equal to the spell's level.
The caster can have a number of Karma marks, that does not exceed their total levels in a casting class plus their casting ability statistic modifier, to no ill effect. If their total Karma marks exceeds this cap, they remove all Karma marks they possess and must roll all dice rolls, for the next twenty four hours, twice and take the lower of the two results.

Spell Preparation

A caster can reduce the dangers that their spellcasting comes with if they take the time to thoughtfully plan out the usage of their magic. A caster can willing increase the casting time of a spell they are about to cast (such as making a spell that only requires an immediate action to instead require a swift action); doing so reduces its level in regards to their spells per day cap by one (minimum 1) for each time they increase the necessary action to cast the spell.

Powerful Magic

Though a casting class' innate magical ability is limited to sixth level spells, they can gain access to much more powerful magics if they seek it from the originating source of their mysticism. This source is generally an intelligent manifestation of some primal force (such as with arcane magic and nature) or a servant or avatar of the god that they worship.

To summon such a being, a character must spend one month constructing a room of power and calling. This generally requires such tasks as scribing circles of runic power, balancing colors and architecture of the room and the consumption or burning of specific incenses, herbs or drafts. The cost to construct such a room is rarely costs less than three thousand gold pieces and in some cases may cost more.

The actual ritual to contact the entity takes twenty four hours to complete and requires the sacrifice of reagents that cost no less than one thousand gold. The caster must pass a Knowledge check (determined by the entity being summoned) with a DC of twenty three for every four hours of the ritual. Once started, the ritual cannot be interrupted without consequence. For every round spent away from the summoning, the DC for all subsequent Knowledge check increases by one.

Upon completion, the desired entity appears inside the room to give an audience to the caster. The caster may beseech the manifestation to give them access to a spell outside their ability to cast (if they are aware of such a spell; otherwise they may only beseech for greater power in general) and try their best to convince the entity to do so in a favorable manner. If persuaded, the summoned creature will generally require some task or personal sacrifice of the caster (weaker casters generally given more arduous tasks to prevent power they are not ready for from falling into their hands).

Once the caster has completed this task, they gain the ability to cast the spell they sought (or a random spell if they did not ask for a specific one). This spell follows the same rules as a spell they would normally be able to cast and the caster has access to it for a span of one year. The manifestation need not be summoned a second time to grant the spell, this happens automatically upon the fulfillment of the agreed upon terms. A caster can never be granted access to a spell that is more than three levels above the highest spell they were capable of casting when they originally summoned the entity that they gained it from.

Regardless if the summoning was successful or not or if the summoned force acquiesced to the request made to it, the reagents used in the ritual are consumed and the caster loses one thousand experience points.

Fetishes and the creation of them

A Fetish is an object of power that is crafted by a caster and imbued with their very essence and life force and which aids them in a variety of ways when practicing their craft. A Fetish can take any form or shape, though common choices are rings, amulets or staves.

A caster who is within thirty feet of their Fetish gains the following benefits:
Spells they cast cost two spell points less and are treated as being one level lower for the purpose of their spells per day cap.
They receive a +4 bonus to the check to determine if they accrue Karma marks when they have reached their spells per day cap.
They receive a +4 bonus to the Knowledge check when summoning a manifestation of their magic.

A caster who's Fetish is destroyed falls immediately into a coma that lasts for three days. They may not attempt to create a new Fetish until one month following the destruction of their previous Fetish.

The creation of a Fetish is a dedicated ritual that requires one week to complete. At the beginning of the ritual, the character selects an object that is no larger than Large size and is something that they created themselves or is of great personal significance to them. The character then spends each day mediating before the selected object, burning reagents worth no less than one hundred gold pieces and imbuing it with one hundred experience points. The meditation generally lasts for one to three hours each day. The caster cannot take part in any other activity while taking part in this ritual, save for eating, sleeping and other such forms of light work.

At the completion of the ritual, the caster's last task is to permanently reduce their Constitution score (Charisma for Constructs and Undead) by 1. This final act gives the Fetish its powers and increases its hardness to 40 (if it was already 40, increase it to 50).

And that's that. I'm not sure how to fit metamagic in there...would raising the spell level (with no cap) be appropriate or should I look at metapsionic feats?

ArcturusV

2013-01-30, 04:16 PM

Well, the simplest, cheesiest method? Take something like like Druid (Or a Wizard) with those limitations up against a Wyrm. Presuming proper planning, could work something like one of the obvious ways to make a creature fall, using Fogs, Illusions, Walls, etc. Hit it at a point where they fall into a mass you've Transmuted from Rock to Mud. Then Transmute Mud to Rock, Wyrms as I recall have terrible reflex saves so it's pretty much a lock. You just buried a Wyrm in Rock and, well, it's done like burnt toast. I've killed far too many enemies like that myself.

Of course there are also classic low level ones, like using that method, or making Pit Traps, and Hallucinatory Terrain, etc.

Or the really cheesier use of Charms, Suggestions, Dominations, Geases, etc, to just get other people to do it for you.

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-30, 04:19 PM

Metapsionics implicitly limits stacking of the feats on a single power (pre-epic or without psicrystal containment) because of the necessity of expending psionic focus as you activate the metamagic feat. They also reduce augmenting, but I'm not clear if you are incorporating augmenting into the spells.

Limiting metamagic to work like metapsionics will go a long way further to limit spellcasting, as it makes implications of a certain spell more predictable. You will need to rewrite each metamagic feat if you do this though. I think the conversion was something like +2pp for each +1 spell level of the comparable metamagic, but this doesn't seem right.

Kane0

2013-01-30, 05:20 PM

I'm not sure about making it more perilous, but all my casters need to take Spell focus if they want to use spells of that school of a level higher than 3rd, and greater Spell focus for spells of 7th or higher in that spell school.

Paladins, Rangers and other classes with access to 4th level spells at best are exempt.

It is a simple thing that limits all casters equally and in a balanced way, without overdoing it.

I also reworked how counterspelling is done, but that is a bit more major.

Tanuki Tales

2013-01-30, 07:30 PM

-Snip-

And I apparently forgot how Metapsionics works. :smallsigh:

I was thinking more along the lines of you add a metamagic feat onto a spell and the spell both counts as a spell of that level towards your SpD cap and costs as much as a spell of that level points wise.

Alchemyst

2013-01-31, 04:51 PM

So from what I'm getting from this thread is to try and lower the power to the T1 and T2 casters. While it seems like the perceived "fix" to this power is to make a step or two into the previous editions. To give the spells their drawback they once had. For some of you older players, you'll remember that mages back then were still nigh unstoppable, despite the so-called "negatives." Thus I believe that what you're trying to do here is simply not going to help draw back the aforementioned casters.

Wild Magic, skill checks, or any kind of roll can easily be circumvented and made easy to pass, and in some cases, turned into an actual boon for themselves. I also believe that any amount of stat or HP reducers are negligible and simply won't stop the power that those casters hold. There are beasts of burden, hirelings, summons, and countless other outs to keep said mage trucking through the day. Unless, of course, you target the casting stat itself. But then you start to restrict what the caster can cast throughout the day, reducing his/her effectiveness, and eventually rendering them nothing more than a commoner, with possibly more HP than the average villager.

The only real "fix" I think one can reliably execute that will tame the T1 and T2 casters is to out-right restrict what spells they can cast. That is, to have the individual DM filter through every spell and only allow certain spells to have been "created" in their world. With known and perceived broken and over-powered spells regulated to expensive and long rituals with drawbacks post-casting so that the PCs can't just go freely using and abusing them as they wish.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-01-31, 07:12 PM

You missed the point then, Alchemyst.

The OP said very clearly that this was -not- intended to be a balance fix. Just a way of getting back an old-school feel.

You would, of course, have to go much further than any of these suggestions -and- boost the lower tier classes to achieve balance.

BTW, how exactly do you propose circumventing wild-magic?

Xerxus

2013-01-31, 08:10 PM

Limiting spell levels to 6 would make the mystic theurge useful, right?

Arcanist

2013-01-31, 08:17 PM

Wild Magic, skill checks, or any kind of roll can easily be circumvented and made easy to pass, and in some cases, turned into an actual boon for themselves.

Yes, however you cannot use magic to circumvent the skill check (making it fairly moot in the long run). Think of it this way, if you have to use magic to resolve a problem so you can cast magic, you just lost an entire round just trying to cast a spell to cast a spell for a roll that you'd have to make anyway. You can use WBL abuse, but that is an entirely different monster all together.

The only real "fix" I think one can reliably execute that will tame the T1 and T2 casters is to out-right restrict what spells they can cast. That is, to have the individual DM filter through every spell and only allow certain spells to have been "created" in their world. With known and perceived broken and over-powered spells regulated to expensive and long rituals with drawbacks post-casting so that the PCs can't just go freely using and abusing them as they wish.

Banning Spells is bad for business since in the long run you are also hurting yourself as a DM. Making them more difficult to cast, however is reasonable to say the least.

Limiting spell levels to 6 would make the mystic theurge useful, right?

Try that out on paper and tell me how it works out for you. you'd only get up to 4th level spells in that scenario

Re'ozul

2013-01-31, 08:41 PM

My personal version for the "Magic is unpredictable" idea.

Each spell needs several rolls.
Define Surge-chance (X) as X=20*spell level/caster level

First roll: 1d100
1-25 spell is weaker
26-50 spell is stronger
(100-X)-100 Wild surge

Second roll:
If weaker: roll 1d100; imagine as percentage; squareroot
(so a 1 would be 10%, a 25 would be 50%)
Apply to all variables (damage, duration usually, NOT DC or range)

If stronger: roll 1d100; Squareroot
(1 becomes 1, 100 becomes 10)
Apply as multiplier on one random attribute of the spell or take to (1/Y) power (Y= number or variables) and apply to all.

If Wild Surge: roll 1d10000 and look up here (http://www.traykon.com/pdf/The_Net_Libram_of_Random_Magical_Effects.pdf).
Number of effects based on level of spell attempted:
1st level: 1 effect 1rd/CL
2nd level: 1 effect 1 minute/CL
3rd level: 1 effect 1hour/CL
4th level: 1 effect permanent
5th level: 2 effects 1 permanent; 1 minute/CL
6th level: 2 effects 1 permanent; 1 hour/CL
7th level: 2 effects 2 permanent
8th level: 3 effects; 2 permanent; 1 hour/CL
9th level: 3 effects all permanent
If list gives shorter duration than this for any effect, use shorter duration.
All effects can be removed via break enchantment etc. But removal agent spell/effect must be of equal or higher level than the causing spell.

Tanuki Tales

2013-01-31, 08:59 PM

-Snip-

Even if it's actually far simpler than it looks, isn't it too much to expect your players to do equations of that maner simply to cast their spells? :smallconfused:

I mean, I feel like that's more a math problem than game rules.

Cuaqchi

2013-01-31, 09:18 PM

It's been a while since I looked into which spells always won/how Wizards are awesome threads (it gave me a headache honestly), so would you mind enlightening me which 1-6 spells could down a Balor, Pit Fiend or Wyrm (in this case, 3.X spells are fine; I can just compare them to their PF versions or analogues)?

Note I am not capable of Optimization to the level others on here are; but, given the challenge here are some of my solutions to this. Here is presented with 2 Options per level. What should be obvious, even with these Core options is that SR reduction, Caster Level Increase, and/or Saving Throw Adjustment is the key to winning in all these cases.

6) Flesh to Stone - Yes, they get a Fort Save; but, failure means you just hand the barbarian a hammer and wait a few hours. Or just Disintegrate the item you have created.

Circle of Death - Again, a Fort Save; but, at level 20 your average is sufficient that a Great Gold Wyrm (41 HD) is killed outright and even your max when you get the spell can do so.

5) (For the Dragon) Feeblemind - Will Save (At -4 due to Arcane Casting capabilities); failure means he is just a set of claws and teeth - can't cast spells.

(For Fiend & Palor) Dismissal - Will Save; Failure and the creature leaves your plane. (20% chance it isn't to its home plane - Balor in Elysium? Yes, Please :smallamused:)

Baleful Polymorph - Yes, there are two saves; but, failure leaves a new pet.

4) Bestow Curse - Will Save; Each option (Especially the 3rd - 50% lose actions) is powerful and capable of giving your teammates the edge needed.

Confusion - Again, Will save; again - disrupt the enemy's action economy and with proper planning amongst your allies force its attack options.

3) Rage - SR, No save. Give a minor combat boost to turn off their spells and spell-likes.

Slow/Haste - Will Save (for Slow). Isn't it fun to screw with the action economy.

2) Blindness/Deafness - Fort Save; but, Deafness mucks up Spellcasting (The Dragon) and Blindness means the Fiend and Balor have a harder time smiting you.

Mirror Image - How many times do you have to kill me before you pick the right one?

1) Ray of Enfeeblement - When combined with Rage or Confusion a Str Debuff is always nice.

Protection from Evil - Minor defense buff; but, we are talking about Level 1 Spells here.

Barmoz

2013-01-31, 09:50 PM

Look into the true sorcery supplement from Green Ronin, slight decrease in overall magic power, but lets you do impressive things if you have lots of time to prepare or if you're willing to take significant damage (drain) as the caster. There's ways to break it with skill buffing, but applied in a non-cheesy way I personally love it.

Raven777

2013-01-31, 10:08 PM

Problem with all these extra check involving drawbacks : it makes combat rounds even longer. It makes magic harder, but is also making the game more tedious really a price we want to pay for this?

Tanuki Tales

2013-01-31, 10:12 PM

Problem with all these extra check involving drawbacks : it makes combat rounds even longer. It makes magic harder, but is also making the game more tedious really a price we want to pay for this?

At least with my suggestion, it only adds on extra check and that's only if they've already gone over their daily cap. Not counting if they get punished for overcasting, but hey, it's worth it in my opinion.

Arcanist

2013-01-31, 11:02 PM

-Snip*

I don't like using Save spells since they effectively allow, limited myself to core and limited myself to not destroying the world in the process. Fairly hard...

Ashtagon

2013-02-01, 03:58 AM

There are three ways to look at magic....

All casters should choose what power source their magic uses when the character is created. Changing this choice later on should be nearly impossible (see PHB2 for retraining rules).

Cast from mana (caster level drain)
Cast from body (Con drain)
Cast from sanity (Wis drain)

Due to the metaphysical implications, cast from sanity doesn't make sense for divine casters (except maybe a god of insanity?), and casting from body doesn't make much sense for most good-aligned divine casters.

In each case...

Casting a spell reduces the relevant ability by the spell level. Characters have a buffer equal to their caster level before points are taken off that ability. A feat (feat name TBD) increases that buffer by the caster level, and can be taken multiple times.

Resting for one round allows a 50% chance of recovering one point. If this check is failed, that point is considered to be ability drain.

Note that if using the casting from mana option, a reduced caster level may prevent you from casting your highest level spells. Reduced Wisdom may prevent higher level divine spells from being cast.

Alienist

2013-02-01, 05:46 AM

The Thieves World supplement from Green Ronin has ideas along those lines. Roughly speaking: try to build up N magic points, where N is spell level x 10 (or x20 in a low mana area? I don't remember). If the mana pool goes negative, bad things happen.

On average the pool should be creeping up rather than down, so the spell mainly has a chance of backfiring in the first round you're building up your pool.

Shadowrun had some interesting mechanics built around training the players to be conservative in their use of magic.

If you're going for a points based system, how about something like this:
You get [casting mod / 2] points per level (round down). A spell costs level^2 points to cast.

Depending on whether you want to do the Pathfinder thing of cantrips are free, either assign cantrips level 0 or level 0.5 (and don't round down, so if you cast one might as well cast 3 more)

Now allow players to buy extra points with damage. Because of regeneration, don't let those points they buy accumulate. So once they hit (or go below 0) mana in the pool, each spell they cast does damage.

Beneficial side effect: gives low level casters more options, and reigns in some of the silliness of high level casters.

nedz

2013-02-01, 08:00 AM

Why has no one mentioned removing defensive spell casting ?
Oh and if the caster takes damage the spell is lost.

These were the rule in AD&D.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-01, 11:17 AM

@Ash: Isn't ability drain too harsh a shackle for casting? The caster is either going to put effort into being immune to it or they won't play an actual caster. And doesn't it end up hurting the melee half-casters (Ranger, Paladin, etc.) more than it hurts the Wizard or other non-melee casters?

@Alienist: I'd have to see more of the math for your suggestion (specifically the rate they refill the pool, either naturally or through damage) before determining if your suggestion is too harsh. Someone with a 30 in their casting stat would only have a pool of 100 points (not too far off from the spell point pool size I suggested) at level 20. This seems big if not for the fact that anything above 4th level spells will significantly cut into their "pool" and the fact that this is a level 20 caster with a pretty high casting stat.

Low-level casters aren't necessarily benefited either. Assuming a starting 20 in their stat, that's a progression of (from level 1 to 6) 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 for the pool but spells go 1, 4, 9. So until they can afford to really hike up their casting stat and to shore it with a high level, this formula really bites them.

@Nedz: Now there's a thought.

Pandoras Folly

2013-02-01, 11:20 AM

I had one dm, our parties tended towards higher op and our wiiizzzzaaaaarrrrrrrd player loved to OP the hell out of stuff. So our dm had all casters start out as older characters so you startedwith negatives to physical states. Making magic items took a permanent HP drain. And he required all spell components to be accounted , he had researched price charts for all the common ingridients based on medieval sources that he could figure out. So eschew components didnt help for somethings, apparently sulfur was more than a gold a pop.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-01, 11:28 AM

I had one dm, our parties tended towards higher op and our wiiizzzzaaaaarrrrrrrd player loved to OP the hell out of stuff. So our dm had all casters start out as older characters so you startedwith negatives to physical states.

Well, that doesn't sound like that good a shackle on magic honestly. That's just sounds like a pigeonholing of character concepts. Not like it matters because of shapechanging magic or races like Warforged or Elans or Dragonwrought Kobolds.

Making magic items took a permanent HP drain.

Now that hits and hurts. At what costs though, because that sounds overly harsh.

And he required all spell components to be accounted , he had researched price charts for all the common ingridients based on medieval sources that he could figure out. So eschew components didnt help for somethings, apparently sulfur was more than a gold a pop.

That just sounds like pointless book keeping honestly.

nedz

2013-02-01, 12:56 PM

Making magic items took a permanent HP drain.

So magic items are rare — that just hits non-casters.:smallsigh:

NichG

2013-02-01, 01:35 PM

From personal experience, cherry-picking what spells are allowed is the way to nerf casting if your goal is balance. If your goal is the flavor of dangerous, unpredictable magic though, then the balance considerations are less of an issue. That is to say, the downsides to magic don't actually have to be bad enough to make magic use less common, they just have to be noticeable and interesting enough that the flavor is presented and felt by the players.

For instance, even if its just something like 'all casters have a mark somewhere on their body; every time they cast a spell the mark grows slightly, until it completely envelops them and consumes them', thats enough to give the feel that magic is dangerous and not to be trifled with. But as long as the 'completely envelops them and consumes them' part is far enough down the line (e.g. 10000 spells cast or something like that), it doesn't impact the actual mechanics of play. As far as how casters would be regarded in the world though, it absolutely changes things - adventuring mages are seen as insane as they are hastening their eventual doom in exchange for burning brightly for a moment and doing great deeds. A Tippyverse scenario just won't happen, because mages in power will want to do all they can to not have to use magic at all so as to extend their lives as much as possible (it gets even more interesting if there's a balance - the mark extends your life up until the point where it consumes you, because it 'wants' to be the thing that does you in rather than letting you escape via a natural death...).

ArcturusV

2013-02-01, 01:48 PM

Another odd though that popped into my mind. Remembering Fate/Stay Night. Would be kind of interesting to see the "Command Spell" ideal adapted. Maybe each mage's power has the thematic flavorings of Warlocks (Pacts with X being for Power). Which does give them that Command Spell style marking, an elaborate tattoo which details their power and potential as a mage. As they cast spells, a bit of the mark fades away. Powerful spells might cause several bits of the mark to fade away (higher level spells). As long as they don't run out completely, they'd still be capable of low level magic. Always level zero, otherwise half the highest level they can normally cast rounded down. So if you can cast 3rd level magic normally, you can cast level 1 magic without losing part of the mark. If the mark was nearly faded away completely, the mage in question might be able to cut a deal with whatever granted them their power to replenish the mark. Which is obvious quest fodder and considering it's likely to happen when they are low on magic but have otherwise proved themselves worthy of further attention (Meaning: Have adventured, gained levels, and naturally burned off magic), they'll have to be quite miserly with their magic. Use their wits rather than their God Powers to solve things, maybe even involve their otherwise weaker party members to see them through.

It doesn't really quite fit third/3.5/Pathfinder I suppose. But it's a weird concept that has the flavor without necessarily involving a ton of formulae and book keeping. Basically just a "Tattoo Tally" or something with so many segments and erasing bits of it as you cast more powerful magics. Gives leeway for those of more artistic bend to design what their particular marking is and erase bits of it as they play.

Also provides RP fodder for magical multiclassing. Your wizard wants to pick up Cleric levels? It's not as simple as just writing "Cleric" on your sheet next time you level up. It requires going out there finding a divine agent, a god, a deva, a devil, what have you, and forming a similar pact with them.

... kinda wish I had a campaign going where I could run an idea like that.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-01, 01:54 PM

@Nich and Arcturus: I actually like both of those ideas. What do you think of my replacing Karma marks basically giving Disadvantage on all rolls and the caster getting the spell for one year with something similar to your two's ideas?

NichG

2013-02-01, 07:45 PM

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-01, 09:40 PM

I'm not sure exactly how Disadvantage would work here. Do you mean that each counter allows the GM to call for Disadvantage on a single roll? Or that even after casting a single spell, the caster has Disadvantage on all rolls for the day (which basically means the caster will just always have Disadvantage on all rolls...)?

Did you see the spoiler I posted back on page 2?

If not, here's a refresher:

Spellcasting

Casting classes that previously had full progression (such as the Wizard, Cleric or Druid) now have the spellcasting progression of a Bard.
Vancian casting is replaced by a spell point system. All spellcasting classes have a pool of spell points equal to six times their total levels in their spellcasting class. Spells cost a number of spell points to cast equal to twice their level minus one.
A character can willingly take one point of Constitution damage (Charisma for Undead and Constructs who lack a Constitution score) to gain three spell points in their pool. Spell points gained in this manner cannot exceed their maximum amount for their level and vanish if not used after one hour expires. Damage done to the character in this manner cannot be mitigated in any way and bypasses immunity to such types of damage. The damage heals at a rate of one point per twenty four hours.

Caps and Limitations

A caster possesses a pool of buffer points equal to one quarter their total levels in their casting class (minimum 1). Buffer points can be spent in the place of the caster taking ability damage to fill their spell point pool. Buffer points replenish at a rate of one per every twenty four hours.
A caster has a limit on the amount of spells they can caster per day without any negative side effects. This limit is equal to the ability statistic that they use for casting. If the character casts more spell levels in one day than this limit, they must roll a d20 (adding one quarter their total level in their casting class [minimum +1]) against a DC of 5 + the spell's level + the number of previous checks in this manner they've made that day. If the caster passes the check, the spell casts as normal and they become fatigued (this ignores mitigation or immunity) [if they are already fatigued, they become exhausted and if exhausted, they fall unconscious for the next 24 hours]. If they fail the check, the spell casts as normal but expends twice the normal amount of spell points and the caster gains a number of Karma marks equal to the spell's level.
The caster can have a number of Karma marks, that does not exceed their total levels in a casting class plus their casting ability statistic modifier, to no ill effect. If their total Karma marks exceeds this cap, they remove all Karma marks they possess and must roll all dice rolls, for the next twenty four hours, twice and take the lower of the two results.

Spell Preparation

A caster can reduce the dangers that their spellcasting comes with if they take the time to thoughtfully plan out the usage of their magic. A caster can willing increase the casting time of a spell they are about to cast (such as making a spell that only requires an immediate action to instead require a swift action); doing so reduces its level in regards to their spells per day cap by one (minimum 1) for each time they increase the necessary action to cast the spell.

Powerful Magic

Though a casting class' innate magical ability is limited to sixth level spells, they can gain access to much more powerful magics if they seek it from the originating source of their mysticism. This source is generally an intelligent manifestation of some primal force (such as with arcane magic and nature) or a servant or avatar of the god that they worship.

To summon such a being, a character must spend one month constructing a room of power and calling. This generally requires such tasks as scribing circles of runic power, balancing colors and architecture of the room and the consumption or burning of specific incenses, herbs or drafts. The cost to construct such a room is rarely costs less than three thousand gold pieces and in some cases may cost more.

The actual ritual to contact the entity takes twenty four hours to complete and requires the sacrifice of reagents that cost no less than one thousand gold. The caster must pass a Knowledge check (determined by the entity being summoned) with a DC of twenty three for every four hours of the ritual. Once started, the ritual cannot be interrupted without consequence. For every round spent away from the summoning, the DC for all subsequent Knowledge check increases by one.

Upon completion, the desired entity appears inside the room to give an audience to the caster. The caster may beseech the manifestation to give them access to a spell outside their ability to cast (if they are aware of such a spell; otherwise they may only beseech for greater power in general) and try their best to convince the entity to do so in a favorable manner. If persuaded, the summoned creature will generally require some task or personal sacrifice of the caster (weaker casters generally given more arduous tasks to prevent power they are not ready for from falling into their hands).

Once the caster has completed this task, they gain the ability to cast the spell they sought (or a random spell if they did not ask for a specific one). This spell follows the same rules as a spell they would normally be able to cast and the caster has access to it for a span of one year. The manifestation need not be summoned a second time to grant the spell, this happens automatically upon the fulfillment of the agreed upon terms. A caster can never be granted access to a spell that is more than three levels above the highest spell they were capable of casting when they originally summoned the entity that they gained it from.

Regardless if the summoning was successful or not or if the summoned force acquiesced to the request made to it, the reagents used in the ritual are consumed and the caster loses one thousand experience points.

Fetishes and the creation of them

A Fetish is an object of power that is crafted by a caster and imbued with their very essence and life force and which aids them in a variety of ways when practicing their craft. A Fetish can take any form or shape, though common choices are rings, amulets or staves.

A caster who is within thirty feet of their Fetish gains the following benefits:
Spells they cast cost two spell points less and are treated as being one level lower for the purpose of their spells per day cap.
They receive a +4 bonus to the check to determine if they accrue Karma marks when they have reached their spells per day cap.
They receive a +4 bonus to the Knowledge check when summoning a manifestation of their magic.

A caster who's Fetish is destroyed falls immediately into a coma that lasts for three days. They may not attempt to create a new Fetish until one month following the destruction of their previous Fetish.

The creation of a Fetish is a dedicated ritual that requires one week to complete. At the beginning of the ritual, the character selects an object that is no larger than Large size and is something that they created themselves or is of great personal significance to them. The character then spends each day mediating before the selected object, burning reagents worth no less than one hundred gold pieces and imbuing it with one hundred experience points. The meditation generally lasts for one to three hours each day. The caster cannot take part in any other activity while taking part in this ritual, save for eating, sleeping and other such forms of light work.

At the completion of the ritual, the caster's last task is to permanently reduce their Constitution score (Charisma for Constructs and Undead) by 1. This final act gives the Fetish its powers and increases its hardness to 40 (if it was already 40, increase it to 50).

I bolded the part that pertains to your question. :smallsmile:

ArcturusV

2013-02-01, 09:55 PM

I dunno. His idea, and yours, are based on accumulating penalties over time and for overuse. Where as mine is based on limitations over time. They both get the same result, inspiring you to horde magic and treat it as something special other than go "Oh, Random Encounter, we're only going to have one today so Fireball, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Fireball, Evard's Black Tentacles of Forced Intrusion", just to get past things easier than you'd have to without spellcasting.

So we get to the same ideal but via very different routes. I mean in mine the only drawback to doing that over a pointless or minor incident is that you're burning up potential spells... spells you may only get back later... at a cost you may not like paying. In yours it makes you suck a big one right away if you do that, but only temporary. Whereas in NickG's it brings you that much closer to a long term Bad End (though with no actual penalties until you hit it).

NickG's, while flavorful, I don't QUITE like. Only because it's like the Age thing in most Campaigns. "Who cares if your elf is going to die of old age centuries after my Human does. Campaign's don't last that long. Meanwhile my extra feat and skill points has a real effect".

So it has the flavor of a limitation without actually being a limitation in the real sense. Depending on where the cap is placed. The only limitation on it is that you won't have any figures like Sarda, setting wise.

http://8bittheater.wikia.com/wiki/Sarda

As they will have succumbed to Madness far before they reach basic godhood by having complete mastery over time and space. But in practical campaign and adventurer terms it won't have an effect. Also in the setting side preventing the Magic=Tech thing. Which is fine because that was never my favorite thing.

NichG

2013-02-01, 11:32 PM

Did you see the spoiler I posted back on page 2?

If not, here's a refresher:

The caster can have a number of Karma marks, that does not exceed their total levels in a casting class plus their casting ability statistic modifier, to no ill effect. If their total Karma marks exceeds this cap, they remove all Karma marks they possess and must roll all dice rolls, for the next twenty four hours, twice and take the lower of the two results.[/list]

I bolded the part that pertains to your question. :smallsmile:

Ah, I missed this. Okay, yeah, I think this would work. It gets a little weird if people sit right at that threshold, but it does make the system less finnicky. One thing I liked about 'the GM says when' is that it basically means that the GM can act to make the modifiers relevant by choosing a particularly important moment to use them, which helps with some of the 'unpredictable' aspect that makes magic feel more dangerous.

So we get to the same ideal but via very different routes. I mean in mine the only drawback to doing that over a pointless or minor incident is that you're burning up potential spells... spells you may only get back later... at a cost you may not like paying. In yours it makes you suck a big one right away if you do that, but only temporary. Whereas in NickG's it brings you that much closer to a long term Bad End (though with no actual penalties until you hit it).

NickG's, while flavorful, I don't QUITE like. Only because it's like the Age thing in most Campaigns. "Who cares if your elf is going to die of old age centuries after my Human does. Campaign's don't last that long. Meanwhile my extra feat and skill points has a real effect".

So it has the flavor of a limitation without actually being a limitation in the real sense. Depending on where the cap is placed. The only limitation on it is that you won't have any figures like Sarda, setting wise.

I assume by this you mean my tattoo suggestion. Yeah, it was explicitly intended to be an example of something that utterly changes the flavor and setting consequences of magic without touching the actual gameplay or mechanics one whit. Basically my point was just to demonstrate that you can make magic 'dangerous' without a mechanical nerf that could be unintended. It could as easily be 'every so often when you cast a spell you get a disfiguring mutation', so spellcasters look like hideous monstrosities by the time they're archmages. No mechanical effect, but it does a lot to explain why every commoner wouldn't be enrolling in wizard school.

Alefiend

2013-02-02, 12:33 AM

Why has no one mentioned removing defensive spell casting ?
Oh and if the caster takes damage the spell is lost.

These were the rule in AD&D.

So were granular casting times. If we create a delay between when the spell is begun and when it goes off, the caster is vulnerable for a significant amount of time.

In the current rules, the caster is only vulnerable to losing a spell during the standard action it requires (ignoring DoT for the moment). This means that unless somebody has a readied action to attack the caster, the spell goes off immediately and unhindered.

Old school had the rounds divided into 10 segments, and most combat spells' casting time was 1 segment per level. Damage taken during this period, in which the caster couldn't effectively move or dodge and needed to maintain line of sight and effect to the target, would disrupt the spell. In short, there was risk involved when you brought out the big guns.

This could be adapted to 3.P by having the casting time count down the initiative order. You are on initiative 13 and cast a 5th-level spell; you are vulnerable to disruption until initiative 8, which is also when the spell takes effect.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-02, 01:20 PM

Alright, here we go again:

Spellcasting

Casting classes that previously had full progression (such as the Wizard, Cleric or Druid) now have the spellcasting progression of a Bard.
Vancian casting is replaced by a spell point system. All spellcasting classes have a pool of spell points equal to six times their total levels in their spellcasting class. Spells cost a number of spell points to cast equal to twice their level minus one.
A character can willingly take one point of Constitution damage (Charisma for Undead and Constructs who lack a Constitution score) to gain three spell points in their pool. Spell points gained in this manner cannot exceed their maximum amount for their level and vanish if not used after one hour expires. Damage done to the character in this manner cannot be mitigated in any way and bypasses immunity to such types of damage. The damage heals at a rate of one point per twenty four hours.

Caps and Limitations

A caster possesses a pool of buffer points equal to one quarter their total levels in their casting class (minimum 1). Buffer points can be spent in the place of the caster taking ability damage to fill their spell point pool. Buffer points replenish at a rate of one per every twenty four hours.
A caster has a limit on the amount of spells they can caster per day without any negative side effects. This limit is equal to the ability statistic that they use for casting. If the character casts more spell levels in one day than this limit, they must roll a d20 (adding one quarter their total level in their casting class [minimum +1]) against a DC of 5 + the spell's level + the number of previous checks in this manner they've made that day. If the caster passes the check, the spell casts as normal and they become fatigued (this ignores mitigation or immunity) [if they are already fatigued, they become exhausted and if exhausted, they fall unconscious for the next 24 hours]. If they fail the check, the spell casts as normal but expends twice the normal amount of spell points and the caster gains a number of Karma marks equal to the spell's level.
The caster can have a number of Karma marks, that does not exceed their total levels in a casting class plus their casting ability statistic modifier, to no ill effect. If their total Karma marks exceeds this cap, they remove all Karma marks they possess and roll on the chart below to determine the lasting effect:

{table=head]Dice Roll|Effect
1|Shortened Life: The caster's maximum life span is reduced by 10 years.
2|Unlucky: The caster must reroll all dice rolls that they make for the next twenty four hours and take the lesser of the two rolls.
3|Disfigurement: The caster's body is warped in some way. This has no mechanical effect but marks them as having been burned when delving too deep in their power.
4|Lost Age: The caster physically regresses 3d10 years, but their actual age and mental ability scores are untouched. The caster can not be aged past their first year in this manner. If the caster is already physically in their first year, reduce their mental scores by 1.
5|Vengeful Spirit: A creature that the caster had a hand in killing is raised from the dead as a Ghost, unable to rest until the caster has died.
6|Unwanted Attention: The caster has garnered the attention of a being who's power dwarfs their own.[/table]

Spell Preparation

A caster can reduce the dangers that their spellcasting comes with if they take the time to thoughtfully plan out the usage of their magic. A caster can willing increase the casting time of a spell they are about to cast (such as making a spell that only requires an immediate action to instead require a swift action); doing so reduces its level in regards to their spells per day cap by one (minimum 1) for each time they increase the necessary action to cast the spell.

Casting Defensively and Damage while Casting

In addition to the normal rules for casting defensively and for casting while being damaged, the caster's spell automatically has its casting time increased by one step if they succeed on their Concentration check. This does not affect the spell's level in regards to the caster's spells per day cap.

Metamagic

With the changes to how the spellcasting system works also comes the changes to how to apply metamagic feats. Follow the rules below for their application in the new system:

There no longer is a cap to what level a metamagic can be applied to (ex. a caster can Quicken a 9th level spell, if they have one), but the caster may only apply one metamagic to a spell for every five levels in their casting class that they possess (minimum 1).
The spell point cost and spell level in regards to the spells per day cap of a metamagiked spell is determined by its new level (so the example Quickened 9th level spell would be considered a 13th level spell and cost 25 spell points to cast).
The level increase of a metamagic feat is applied only after any reductions of spell level and spell points (such as from a caster's Fetish).
A metamagiked spell is considered a spell of twice its modified level for the purpose of determining how many Karma marks a caster accrues (so the example Quickened 9th level spell would accrue 26 Karma marks).

Powerful Magic

Though a casting class' innate magical ability is limited to sixth level spells, they can gain access to much more powerful magics if they seek it from the originating source of their mysticism. This source is generally an intelligent manifestation of some primal force (such as with arcane magic and nature) or a servant or avatar of the god that they worship.

To summon such a being, a character must spend one month constructing a room of power and calling. This generally requires such tasks as scribing circles of runic power, balancing colors and architecture of the room and the consumption or burning of specific incenses, herbs or drafts. The cost to construct such a room is rarely costs less than three thousand gold pieces and in some cases may cost more.

The actual ritual to contact the entity takes twenty four hours to complete and requires the sacrifice of reagents that cost no less than one thousand gold. The caster must pass a Knowledge check (determined by the entity being summoned) with a DC of twenty three for every four hours of the ritual. Once started, the ritual cannot be interrupted without consequence. For every round spent away from the summoning, the DC for all subsequent Knowledge check increases by one.

Upon completion, the desired entity appears inside the room to give an audience to the caster. The caster may beseech the manifestation to give them access to a spell outside their ability to cast (if they are aware of such a spell; otherwise they may only beseech for greater power in general) and try their best to convince the entity to do so in a favorable manner. If persuaded, the summoned creature will generally require some task or personal sacrifice of the caster (weaker casters generally given more arduous tasks to prevent power they are not ready for from falling into their hands).

Once the caster has completed this task, they gain the ability to cast the spell they sought (or a random spell if they did not ask for a specific one). This spell follows the same rules as a spell they would normally be able to cast and the caster gains a mark, tattoo or other visible evidence that represents that fulfilled pact with the entity. This mark generally covers a significant portion of the caster's body and has a "value" equal to three times the caster's spell point pool at the receiving of the mark. Every time a caster casts any spell of any level, the mark's "value" is reduced by the spell point cost of the spell. Once the "value" reaches zero, the mark vanishes completely and the caster loses access to the spell granted to them through their pact.

The manifestation need not be summoned a second time to grant the spell, this happens automatically upon the fulfillment of the agreed upon terms. A caster can never be granted access to a spell that is more than three levels above the highest spell they were capable of casting when they originally summoned the entity that they gained it from.

Regardless if the summoning was successful or not or if the summoned force acquiesced to the request made to it, the reagents used in the ritual are consumed and the caster loses one thousand experience points.

Fetishes and the creation of them

A Fetish is an object of power that is crafted by a caster and imbued with their very essence and life force and which aids them in a variety of ways when practicing their craft. A Fetish can take any form or shape, though common choices are rings, amulets or staves.

A caster who is within thirty feet of their Fetish gains the following benefits:
Spells they cast cost two spell points less (minimum 1 point) and are treated as being one level lower (minimum 1st) for the purpose of their spells per day cap.
They receive a +4 bonus to the check to determine if they accrue Karma marks when they have reached their spells per day cap.
They receive a +4 bonus to the Knowledge check when summoning a manifestation of their magic.

A caster who's Fetish is destroyed falls immediately into a coma that lasts for three days. They may not attempt to create a new Fetish until one month following the destruction of their previous Fetish.

The creation of a Fetish is a dedicated ritual that requires one week to complete. At the beginning of the ritual, the character selects an object that is no larger than Large size and is something that they created themselves or is of great personal significance to them. The character then spends each day mediating before the selected object, burning reagents worth no less than one hundred gold pieces and imbuing it with one hundred experience points. The meditation generally lasts for one to three hours each day. The caster cannot take part in any other activity while taking part in this ritual, save for eating, sleeping and other such forms of light work.

At the completion of the ritual, the caster's last task is to permanently reduce their Constitution score (Charisma for Constructs and Undead) by 1. This final act gives the Fetish its powers and increases its hardness to 40 (if it was already 40, increase it to 50).

ArcturusV

2013-02-02, 05:02 PM

Just to clarify, is it 100 XP and 100 Gold (And the task takes 1 week) to create a Fetish, or is it 700 XP, and 700 Gold? It's kinda vague in how it's worded and might be interpreted either way.

Anyway, seems nifty. Kinda want to try it out. But I don't know if I can find a spellcaster player to run something that wouldn't spend the whole time whinging about how they are horribly nerfed beyond all belief. Not that I don't think it's fun. I just don't know if they can't get over the fact that the book exists and gives them a lot more power with no price. If you know what I mean. I might have to find a newbie to do it to since they would just accept it and roll with hit? Hmm. Or luck out and get a rare veteran who is cool with it.

But I do want to see how it plays out around the table.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-02, 07:35 PM

Just to clarify, is it 100 XP and 100 Gold (And the task takes 1 week) to create a Fetish, or is it 700 XP, and 700 Gold? It's kinda vague in how it's worded and might be interpreted either way.

It's the latter.

Anyway, seems nifty. Kinda want to try it out. But I don't know if I can find a spellcaster player to run something that wouldn't spend the whole time whinging about how they are horribly nerfed beyond all belief. Not that I don't think it's fun. I just don't know if they can't get over the fact that the book exists and gives them a lot more power with no price. If you know what I mean. I might have to find a newbie to do it to since they would just accept it and roll with hit? Hmm. Or luck out and get a rare veteran who is cool with it.

Well, it's not an actual nerf per se. All the same power is still potentially at a caster's fingertips; they just need the right keys to access it and to stay on the beaten path when exercising their mystic goodies.

But I do want to see how it plays out around the table.

Well, it'll be a permanent addition to my House Rules, so I can always let you know how it pans out.

satorian

2013-02-03, 01:13 AM

My memory of AD&D/2e was that the most limiting spellcasting mechanic was not the drawback spells (we just never used Haste at all, becuase the drawback was too great for the benefit), but the lack of a Concentration analogue. When we took significant damage, we lost our spell. Period. Mundanes were magekillers.

Kesnit

2013-02-03, 08:06 AM

A caster has a limit on the amount of spells they can caster per day without any negative side effects. This limit is equal to the ability statistic that they use for casting.

Maybe I'm just not getting it, but I don't see how this is a nerf. A LVL 1 Wizard could cast 18-20 spells a day before there is risk of negative effects. As they level and raise their INT, they can cast more and more without risk.

Ashtagon

2013-02-03, 08:16 AM

A caster has a limit on the amount of spells they can caster per day without any negative side effects. This limit is equal to the ability statistic that they use for casting.

Agreed. Not a nerf. A caster should only expect to cast a dozen spells daily if the GM is doing the four encounters per day that is expected. Higher lass levels simply give better spells and more backup choices. Past a certain point, a caster simply isn't going to cast all his spells each day.

fwiw, the spells/day were inherited from 1e, when regaining spells took 10 minutes per spell level, not a flat one hour for everything you got. A high level caster who novaed everything might not be at full strength again for a week under that rules set.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-03, 11:57 AM

I'm not nerfing magic...so...you've completely missed my intentions.

Edit: And let's look at the math anyways.

At 1st level through 3rd level, the caster has 18 spells in a 24 period before hitting their cap. This increases to 20 if they put an 18 in there and had a +2 to their stat.
At 4th through 6th, the caster's daily cap is increased to 19 or 21. But his/her daily spell usage now runs from 9 to 19 or 10 to 21.
7th through 9th, the caster's daily cap is increased to 20 or 22. Spell usage though is 6 to 20 or 7 through 22.
10th through 12th, the cap is increased to 21 or 23. Spell usage is 5 to 21 or 5 through 23.
13th through 15th doesn't see a natural boost to the cap, but spell usage becomes 4 to 21 or 4 through 23.
16th through 19th has the cap raised to 22 or 24, spell usage becomes 3 to 22 or 4 to 24.
20 has the cap stop at 23 or 25, spell usage becoming 3 to 23 or 4 to 25.

Mind you, this is excluding stat boosting items and Wish abuse and all that. Assuming, reasonably, that they get a single +5 booster to their casting stat, then the final cap becomes 28 or 30 and daily usage becomes 4 to 28 or 5 to 30.

But this all precludes metamagic usage or having gotten a more powerful spell which is a higher drain on resources or something requiring the caster to be skirting the edge of their daily limit.

Edit Edit:

I mean, if you wanted this to be a nerf, then just change the cap to being half their casting stat. Then the numbers would run from 9 to 15 for the max cap, which would reduce their usage by a wide margin.

Kesnit

2013-02-03, 03:34 PM

I'm not nerfing magic...so...you've completely missed my intentions.

I phrased my comment poorly. Let me try again.

A LVL 1 Wizard can cast 18-20 spells a day without risking penalty. That allows 4-5 spells per encounter without any risk. Even with low-level spells, there's a lot a PC can do with 4-5 spells. As I understood it, you are looking for a way to cause magic to have a price. With the rules laid out, there is no price since a caster is unlikely to ever reach the point where the effects comes into play.

As the WIZ levels up, they can cast more and more spells per encounter without any kind of negative consequence. Let's look at your numbers...

20 has the cap stop at 23 or 25, spell usage becoming 3 to 23 or 4 to 25.

5-6 spells per encounter, and this is low. I've seen builds with casting stats in the 30s, or even 40. That comes out to 7-10 spells per encounter. All of this is before the caster takes any kind of penalty.

But this all precludes metamagic usage or having gotten a more powerful spell which is a higher drain on resources or something requiring the caster to be skirting the edge of their daily limit.

The only way to cause a caster to skirt their daily limit is to push them on past the 4 encounters/day that the designers laid out. Even then, if they know their day will be extended, they can reduce the number of spells they use per encounter (say, from 7 back to 5), and never risk the consequences. While there is nothing wrong with pushing the party on, it can punish non-casters as much as casters.

GrimoireM

2013-02-03, 03:42 PM

I'm just curious, but why not target a spellcaster's caster level, or reduce his maximum Hit Points as a cost? Here's an example:

Spell Drain/Burn Variant

Spell Drain:
Whenever a spellcaster casts a spell, he makes a spell drain check as part of casting the spell. The spell drain check has a DC equal to 10 plus double the level of the spell being cast, before metamagic adjustments. He gains a bonus on this check equal to his casting stat's modifier. If a spellcaster fails this check his caster level gets reduced by 1, plus 1 for every 5 points less than the DC of the check, until he has rested for 8 hours.

If the spellcaster's caster level goes below the minimum required to cast a spell of higher level, then he is unable to cast any spells of that level (or apply metamagic to such spells) without first boosting his caster level to at least the minimum amount. If his caster level reaches 0, then he cannot cast any spells outside of Cantrips. Cantrips are exempt from caster level penalties as a result of spell burn and do not trigger the DC check for spells.

Spell Burn
If a spellcaster wants to boost his reduced caster level (as a result of spell drain) back to normal, he must sacrifice 1d3 maximum hit points per caster level. It takes a normal 8 hours of rest to heal 1d3 of these hit points back, and they cannot be restored through other means.

If the spellcaster's current hit points (excluding temporary HP) are higher than his maximum hit points after paying the cost for boosting his caster level, the additional points are lost. If the spellcaster's maximum hit points goes below 0 as a result of boosting his caster level, he goes into a comatose state, rendering him helpless, stable, but not quite dead. The severity of the spellcaster's spell burn requires the use of a Resurrection spell (Or equivalent) for him to be awakened, which carries the usual penalties. After being resurrected, the caster's maximum HP is set to 1, and may begin healing through rest as normal.

New Bonus Feats

Overcast [Metamagic]
Prerequisites: Spellcasting ability

Benefit: When a spellcaster casts a spell, he may boost his caster level for the spell. He pays a Spell Burn cost equal to the additional caster levels when casting a spell this way. The limit for his boosted caster level is equal to his character level divided by 5, rounded up.

Spontaneous casters may apply Overcasting to their spells without increasing the time required to cast the spell. Prepared casters can apply Overcasting spontaneously to their spells at the time of casting, without increasing the time required to cast the spell.

Level Increase: +0 (An overcast spell uses up a spell slot equal to the level of the spell cast)

New Spells:

Spell Burn Transfer:
School: Necromancy; Level: bard/magus 3, cleric/oracle 4, sorcerer/wizard 4

Casting:
Casting Time: 1 Standard action
Components: S

Effect:
Your touch allows you to drain your enemy, siphoning their vitality and restoring your clarity. Make a melee touch attack, this attack heals 1d3 of your maximum hit points lost as a result of spell burn, plus 1d3 per 5 caster levels. These maximum hit points are drained from your target. If you heal more Hitpoints than you've lost as a result of spell burn, you instead gain temporary HP and deal negative energy damage to your target equal to the remaining amount.