Dread Necromancer

[G.Cube]

Hi everyone,

I started playing Dnd around four or five months ago so I'm still learning a lot of rules, techniques, and info about a lot of stuff.
I'm interested in making a necromancer, and some quick information gathering leads me to believe the Dread Nercomancer(Heroes of Horror) is about the best, I have a few questions concerning the class though.


Is it the best for straight minion creating/controlling purposes?
If I should choose the class, what feats, spells, and other things I might need should I choose?
I did read a few times that Clerics are better then Dread Nercomancer, if this is true, what makes this so?
Anything else I should know about the class?


Rules and restrictions for the current campaign are no evil, and no races outside of PHB and Eberron main races. I'm fairly certain I'll end up being a Human, also using a 30 point buy system for attributes. If I'm missing any information needed please feel free to ask, and thank you all in advance.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Take the feat Arcane Disciple in Complete Divine for a domain that offers Desecrate, you need it for creating undead.

Get the Ghostly Visage for your familiar. Have it always possessing your character, and it can manifest over your face to use its paralyzing gaze during combat. It can spend a standard action every round to immediately affect a single target with its gaze, even if that opponent already saved that round or isn't even looking. Don't forget that allies can still fall victim to this gaze.

Consider taking the feat Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon, which can give you early access to higher level spells. Many DMs won't agree that the feat alone gives you knowledge of higher level spells, so you'll need another feat such as Heighten Spell or Sanctum Spell or a Bloodline feat from Dragon Compendium to get knowledge of the next higher level of your class spell list. It's still totally worth getting.

Your 12th level Advanced Learning spell should be Animate Dread Warrior from Unapproachable East if available, otherwise Awaken Undead if you get minions like skeletons of cave trolls and arrow demons (MM3) and razor boars (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/razorBoar.htm). If you instead want to view minions as disposable, then Aura of Terror is probably best.

Your Undead Mastery class feature only counts class levels, which means taking prestige classes that advance your spellcasting won't improve that class feature. That means Dread Necromancer 20 is going to be better than taking any prestige classes for the number of minions you can get.

Be undead (Necropolitan template from Libris Mortis) if possible, and say you were made one in the area of a Desecrate spell with an evil altar present, and the ritual was performed by another Dread Necromancer 8+ who had the entire Corpsecrafter line of feats from Libris Mortis. That will give you tons of bonuses and +6 HP/level, and you can use your negative energy touch to heal yourself. Get the Spellstitched template in Complete Arcane, and include Animate Dead in your spell-like abilities since it won't have a costly material component. If you can't start out as undead, then get the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat from Libris Mortis instead.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Take the feat Arcane Disciple in Complete Divine for a domain that offers Desecrate, you need it for creating undead.

Why take the feat? Dump Wisdom and get a ring of lesser desecration (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x) for 6 hours of desecration for under 5000gp.

[Alienist]

Consider taking the feat Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon, which can give you early access to higher level spells.


By RAW none of the Versatile Spellcaster style of shenanigans for getting higher level spells work unless you wilfully ignore large sections of the rules.



Many DMs won't agree that the feat alone gives you knowledge of higher level spells,


Because by RAW it doesn't.



so you'll need another feat such as Heighten Spell or Sanctum Spell or a Bloodline feat from Dragon Compendium to get knowledge of the next higher level of your class spell list. It's still totally worth getting.


Players like to pretend that they know all the spells on their spell lists. So that the only reason that their level 1 whatever can't cast wish is because they just don't have a ninth level spell slot.

And then... hey presto, shenanigans, I've got a ninth level spell slot! Hurrah! Now I can cast wish, right?

Nope.

The RAW is very clear that you don't actually get those higher level spells by any process other than levelling up to the minimum required.

But you say! Ahha! Spontaneous casters with full access to their spell lists!

And I say what about them? The RAW is still clear, they don't know those spells.

Example: Warmage

Fluff: Early in their difficult training, warmages instill deep within themselves the knowledge of all the spells they will ever need.
Crunch: Spells: A warmage casts arcane spells (the same type of
spells available to sorcerers and wizards), which are drawn from the warmage spell list given below. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric or wizard must.

Seems pretty clear cut, right? All you need is the spell slot and BAMMO! you're good to go, right?

Not so fast. The next line DESTROYS that argument.

Crunch: When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list.

Bwa bwa bwa bwaaaaa. Sorry, no cigar. The specific trumps general and fluff combined.


NB: Precocious Apprentice IS an exception to the rule, but it is written up very clearly as an exception to the rule. Go compare the hoops they need to jump through for that one to work, and it becomes obvious that all the other attempts fail because of the vast preponderance of rules that explicitly state that's not how the game works.

[Santra]

Hi everyone,

Is it the best for straight minion creating/controlling purposes?
If I should choose the class, what feats, spells, and other things I might need should I choose?
I did read a few times that Clerics are better then Dread Nercomancer, if this is true, what makes this so?
Anything else I should know about the class?


Rules and restrictions for the current campaign are no evil, and no races outside of PHB and Eberron main races. I'm fairly certain I'll end up being a Human, also using a 30 point buy system for attributes. If I'm missing any information needed please feel free to ask, and thank you all in advance.

Yes Dread Necromancer is the best option for permanent minions out there.

As for feats and spells? It all depends on your build. Versatile Spellcaster is always useful. If you intend to get in melee range much I would suggest getting weapon finesse and a decent dex. If you are starting at level 1 and think you might come across undead you might pick up Divine Energy Focus from Ghostwalk as it would let you command dead a level early. (You might only do this if you can retrain it later.) Undead leadership will also be a good choice for you if your DM allows it. Being primarily Cha focused means that your leadership score will be large.

Clerics are sometimes considered better because they have access to all their normal spells as well as being decent necromancers. However if you PrC out of Dread necromancer at lvl 8 but keep your Cha maxed through the standard means you will still be able to control MANY more minions than a cleric can.

As for things to know about the class? Due to the wording of the Lich Transformation class feature it is accepted that you don't get the lich template at level 20. All you do is become an undead and get a phylactery. So dont think you are loosing anything super special if you want to PrC out to grab spells (sand shaper) or any other sort of bonus.

Also please note that having large numbers of minions, while hilariously fun, slows down turns and may make everyone at the table upset with you. It is generally better for party morale if you have a few powerful minions instead.

[Mnemnosyne]

Crunch: When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list.
At its most strict interpretation, this might mean you need Heighten Spell to manage it. If you can fuse two 1st level spells to cast a 2nd level spell, you have access to 2nd level spells...and so on. I wouldn't even say heighten spell is needed; by being able to fuse spells to cast spells one level higher, you inherently have access to that level of spells, and therefore automatically know all of them.

[Doxkid]

[LIST]
Is it the best for straight minion creating/controlling purposes?
Not unless you talk to your DM a lot and plan ahead a lot. You'll also need to discuss things with your party-mates and be ready to explain how you aren't really 'evil'.

What a lot of new necromancers do is get 500 human skeletons and try bringing them everywhere and using them for everything. That is bad. Don't do that.

Optimally you should have 1-4 undead with you that cover all your needs: a melee pet, a mobility pet and something you keep around for it's special abilities. Every now and again when you run into something interesting or powerful, replace one of them; you don't have to release the old undead or destroy it, but you should stow it away (semi-permanently), have it bury itself or something like that.



If I should choose the class, what feats, spells, and other things I might need should I choose?
This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214212)
and this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872470/New_Dread_Necromancer_Handbook) should have most of the info you need.

Your advance learning selections basically make up half your build; the typical thing peopel do is pick up Animate Dread Warrior or Awaken Undead, so they can have smart pets that are easily controlled. If you don't go that route you can pick up

*Touch of Vecna (either spell comepndium or Libris mortis)
*Door of Decay (Complete divine. It is specifically allowed in that spell's text as a DN's advance learning spell)
*Cryptwarden's Grasp (Spell compendium, I believe)
*Extract Gift (fiendish codex 2. Great for taking apart a demon and using it's powers for your party)
*Kiss of the Vampire (Libris, I think. Good for tricking people and getting nifty abilities)

Most of those gems aren't listed in any of the DN handbooks; a lot of similar spells are hidden away, so you should look through a few books to pick up neat necromancy spells.


I did read a few times that Clerics are better then Dread Nercomancer, if this is true, what makes this so?

Clerics have better spell access, faster spell access, more prestige class options, more build options, better melee ability (arguable) more diverse tricks, more ways to help a party and so on.

A cleric is a good necromancer...but clerics are good EVERYTHING so that doesn't really tell you much. You can use a cleric to make a better grappler than a monk, a better charger than a barbarian, a better guitarist than a bard and a better spy than a rogue. All on the same build.

Dread necromancers:
1-Have simple self healing: get Tomb tainted or become undead and you're done.
2-Are flavorful.
3-make the progression into undead slow and somewhat logical
4-Have a few nifty tricks up their sleeves that a cleric would have a hard time replicating
5-have 'better' undead (and more of them) after level 8.
6-Have a large number of built in abilities that are rather cool.
7-Are spontaneous casters

If that sounds like a good starter package, go with the DN.

Anything else I should know about the class?
The handbooks should cover most of what you need.
----
Contrary to popular belief, PrCing out at level 8 isn't a requirement; DNs are viable from 1-20 (and then they don't have any support at all so you HAVE to pick up levels in something else). The general consensus is that by RAW you don't actually become a Lich at level 20...but very few DM's will actually use that ruling because it's silly.

If your DM does say you don't become a lich then, pick up Craft Wondrous and become a lich a level 11. If you are banned form becoming a lich at all, become a Necropolitain (Libris Mortis undead template that takes a level from you, but really justs costs something around 2500-4000 experience if you become one just after/before/while leveling up).

If your DM bans becoming undead you can still heal from negative energy by taking Tomb Tainted, and you can make yourself seem undead through spells/items/rituals/the Lich-Loved feat.

[Alienist]

At its most strict interpretation, this might mean you need Heighten Spell to manage it. If you can fuse two 1st level spells to cast a 2nd level spell, you have access to 2nd level spells...and so on. I wouldn't even say heighten spell is needed; by being able to fuse spells to cast spells one level higher, you inherently have access to that level of spells, and therefore automatically know all of them.

That is the exact opposite of what the rules actually say.