Build some BBEGs

[Lionheart]

Hey all!

I'm looking for some help with optimizing the baddies of my campaign. The setting is a bit complex, but the essential history is that there was a war between dragons and giants. The dragons won, and now the giants rule the underworld as undead.

Now the two main antagonists of this story are bards, one specializing in Dragon based magic (Dragonfire inspiration etc.) while the other specializes in Giant based magic (so a Dirgesinger basically)

I'm having a few problems actually designing these two, the idea is that they're twins, and both should be equally powerful and effective in social situations.

If any one can help me work out builds, feats etc. I would be very grateful.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

What kind of race are you looking at? My first thought was that it would be fun to slap the half-dragon template on a pair of giants and/or half giants. Also, about what level/CR are you hoping for with these two?

[Keltaris]

For the Dirgesinger this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10206031&postcount=6) could be fun and flavourful.

[Lionheart]

What kind of race are you looking at? My first thought was that it would be fun to slap the half-dragon template on a pair of giants and/or half giants. Also, about what level/CR are you hoping for with these two?

Half giant would be a possibility, but it shouldn't be anything that makes them stand out too much from usual humans if that makes sense? So ideally humans (I know that Silverbrow would be pretty good for the dragon side at least), that said, the half dragon half giant would have a certain poetry to it.

The plan for the game is for these two to be recurring baddies, so a build would be better than a character sheet. They will probably come into play between levels 12 and 20, so anywhere in that range would be really helpful.


For the Dirgesinger this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10206031&postcount=6) could be fun and flavourful.

That does look really cool, very fluffy. The Dread pirate build in particular is perfect for what I'm looking for.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Another point that might help steer the build: What kind of fluff do your giants have? Are the wise and ancient or just big angry brutes? Are the various sub-races (fire giants, stone giants, etc.) running around, or is there just one?

You could probably work half-dragon half-giants with points in disguise and hats of disguise (fairly cheap at 1800 GP) to blend in better to human society (hiding unsightly scales and whatnot.) SRD half-giants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants) get +2 on saves against fire, which you could fluff as being from the giants' experience fighting dragons. With a little squinting and some creative reading, you could apply the half-giant's powerful build to give them wings (which large and larger half-dragons get) and a fly speed of 120 ft, which could be handy for escaping the PCs to actually become a recurring villain. (Just give them baggy clothes when they aren't using them and say the wings fold flat enough to be hidden by the combination of the clothes and the disguise self/hat of disguise effect.)

[Lionheart]

Another point that might help steer the build: What kind of fluff do your giants have? Are the wise and ancient or just big angry brutes? Are the various sub-races (fire giants, stone giants, etc.) running around, or is there just one?

You could probably work half-dragon half-giants with points in disguise and hats of disguise (fairly cheap at 1800 GP) to blend in better to human society (hiding unsightly scales and whatnot.) SRD half-giants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants) get +2 on saves against fire, which you could fluff as being from the giants' experience fighting dragons. With a little squinting and some creative reading, you could apply the half-giant's powerful build to give them wings (which large and larger half-dragons get) and a fly speed of 120 ft, which could be handy for escaping the PCs to actually become a recurring villain. (Just give them baggy clothes when they aren't using them and say the wings fold flat enough to be hidden by the combination of the clothes and the disguise self/hat of disguise effect.)

Some very cool ideas here! I was planning on there being a number of different giant types, and they were definitely going to be on the old and wise side, though being giants, they're pretty handy in a fight anyway.

I like the idea of wings, it could be a cool way to distinguish the two of them. If the dragon twin has wings while the giant twin has some other benefit? Possibly something like the undead grafts (from Heroes of Horror I think?)

[Sgt. Cookie]

Prestige Bard from the SRD might be worth a look (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm), especially for the Dragon based Bard, since Prestige Bard can be used to advance Dragon Fire Adept invocations. You'd need a Wizard or Beguiler dip to qualify, mind. I'd suggest Beguiler, since Charisma is more important for a Bard.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I had a whole big post typed out and then my browser ate it. *sigh*

Short(er) version:
For undead benefits, consider some combination of the necropolitan template (become undead and keep your intelligence, from Liber Mortis) and Dread Necromancer (from Heroes of Horror). Dread Necromancer has some nice negative energy abilities including charnel touch at level 1 for an at will 1d8+1 negative energy touch attack that. If you're a necropolitan, it can also be used to heal yourself (like a permanent wand of cure light wounds) and if you get sneak attack (such as from dread pirate) it can be applied to it. Dread necromancer might be worth considering with the prestige bard Sgt. Cookie mentioned above, except that you need a level 1 illusion spell from some other class to qualify and you get -2 to your caster level on actual necromancy spells. (Practiced spellcaster would help here, though.) The perform prereq is the other sticking point but the Apprentice feat from DMG 2 gives you that if you pick an entertainer for a mentor.

How about something like Beguiler 1/Dread Necromancer 1/Sneak Attack Figher 1, followed by either two more levels of Sneak Attack Figher or one more of each casting class for better spells as an entry to prestige bard? You'd get a few handy beguiler tricks, charnel touch, 1 or 2d6 of sneak attack and the dread necromancer's charisma based undead-themed casting, in addition to the prestige bard abilities.

[Lionheart]

Hmmm. That's definitely interesting. I was trying to steer clear of having too much casting power, as the group is not terribly optimised (I have a bard, fighter, shugenja, rogue and warmage), and Dread Necromancer might be a little too good.
I like the necropolitan idea though, that'll definitely add something.


Also, on the Prestige bard. I might just be dense, but I don't see what makes it better than just taking levels in bard? I'm obviously missing something...

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Hmmm. That's definitely interesting. I was trying to steer clear of having too much casting power, as the group is not terribly optimised (I have a bard, fighter, shugenja, rogue and warmage), and Dread Necromancer might be a little too good.
I like the necropolitan idea though, that'll definitely add something.It's only as good as you play it. Compared to bard casting, a dread necromancer has the distinct downside of being very focused. If it isn't debuffing or undead related, he can't do it. The charnel touch is nice, but it's only 1d8+1 damage without boosts and can't full attack so you probably don't need to worry about it.

All in all, remember that any option you pick is only as good as you make it. You could use a tier 1 caster like a wizard or cleric against your players and make it fit their levels by only using less than optimal spells and strategies.

Also, bear in mind that if you go into the prestige bard, dirgesinger or dread pirate, you won't have full casting progression. The prestige bard only advances spell casting on 11 out of 15 levels and the other two don't advance it at all. At most, you would have level 13 dread necromancer casting by level 20, which isn't going to overpower even unoptimized players unless you're really trying to.


Also, on the Prestige bard. I might just be dense, but I don't see what makes it better than just taking levels in bard? I'm obviously missing something...The main benefit is flexibility for your build. Bard 20 has a specific list of class features it can have; Other stuff 5/Prestige Bard 15 gets most of that, but also gets whatever you can milk out of the other 5 levels. In my example, charnel touch and sneak attack are nice little bonuses, but you could also do things like rogue levels for trap finding and sneak attack, cleric for turn undead and some domain powers or barbarian for rage as long as you make the requirements in the end.

Your magic is also more flexible. A normal bard has a specific list from which to learn spells and casts them in a specific way. On the other hand, a prestige bard uses the magic system of whatever class you choose to advance with it. This includes letting you pick a class with spontaneous vs. prepared casting, intelligence vs. charisma focus, wide vs. focused spell list and so forth depending on the class you advance. A normal bard is stuck with spontaneous, charisma and a semi-focused list and has no real way to change that, but a prestige bard doesn't have to be.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Prestige Bard can also be used to advance the two Invocation using classes, Warlock and Dragon Fire Adept, the latter of which would be perfect for the Dragon based Bard. Thus why I mentioned it. But yeah, most of what Lord says is spot on. The only thing I would disagree with is milking those 5 levels for class features, you want to shove as many levels of the class you are going to advance there, 5 or 6, depending on if the class qualifies on its own.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

The only thing I would disagree with is milking those 5 levels for class features, you want to shove as many levels of the class you are going to advance there, 5 or 6, depending on if the class qualifies on its own.A fair point. Different styles I guess. Either way, if you want level 6 to be prestige bard, 5 levels of something like wizard will leave you 1 short so you need at least 1 level of something else (something with full BAB is best) so you might as well get something nice out of it. (This gets more complicated if you want to advance a class that doesn't give you level 1 spells of all 3 required schools and you need a level of another caster class, but you get the point.)

[Lionheart]

OK, I think I get it now. So for the draconic one I'm looking at a half dragon/half giant Silverbrow Human Dragonfire Adept 5/Prestige Bard 15.


As for the undead guy, I'm still undecided. The dread pirate build looks a little weak overall, what with all the melee focus. Race I'm thinking half dragon/half giant necropolitan. Perhaps I could go with Dread Necro 4/Beguiler 1/Prestige Bard 5/Dirgesinger 5. The other option was Bard 5/Dirgesinger 5/Sublime Chord 10. That still gives me access to high level spells.

Does that look alright?

[Sgt. Cookie]

You'd need a level of Beguiler/Wizard for the DFA bard too.

[Lionheart]

Ah, I see. I'll go for wizard for the familiar and scribe scroll.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

OK, I think I get it now. So for the draconic one I'm looking at a half dragon/half giant Silverbrow Human Dragonfire Adept 5/Prestige Bard 15.Whether you go Dragonfire Adept 5 or Dragonfire Adept 4/Wizard 1, you still only reach BAB +2 while prestige bard requires +3. You can either take one more level of Wizard, or add a level of a full base attack bonus class but either of these delays Prestige Bard for a level. Alternately, you could go Dragonfire Adept 2/Wizard 2/[Full BAB class] 1, but this loses you even more levels of Dragonfire Adept powers even if you get bard powers sooner. Does your group play with fractional base attack bonus? If so, another level of Dragonfire Adept (so Adept 5/Wizard 1) would also get you the qualifications you need.

Also, half-giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants) in 3.5 is a race, not a template like half-dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm). This means you couldn't be a half-giant silverbrow human any more than you could be gnome orc or a dwarf elf. That said, I don't think houseruling it would be unreasonable. (If you're a half-giant, something has to be the other half, right?) Maybe giving them the dragonblood subtype, either for free or in exchange for losing their natural psionic power points and stomp would be fair, especially if they're half-dragon too.

(There might be a homebrewed half-giant template out there somewhere, but I don't know of it.)


As for the undead guy, I'm still undecided. The dread pirate build looks a little weak overall, what with all the melee focus. Race I'm thinking half dragon/half giant necropolitan. Perhaps I could go with Dread Necro 4/Beguiler 1/Prestige Bard 5/Dirgesinger 5. The other option was Bard 5/Dirgesinger 5/Sublime Chord 10. That still gives me access to high level spells.

Does that look alright?Either could work, but I think the dread necromancer looks better. Again you need to keep an eye on the prestige class prereqs, especially the base attack bonus. A second level of Beguiler would do it (or another level of Dread Necromancer with fractional BAB).

Overall, I'd lean toward allowing fractional BAB and giving each another level of their primary casting/invocing class. That's where a lot of their power (and flavor) is going to come from and having their barding music be one level behind should be better than having their magic be one (or more) levels behind as you jump through hoops to get in at level 6.

*If you aren't familiar with fractional base attack bonus, click the spoiler.
Fractional base attack bonus is the idea that each class level gives some amount of BAB, even if the table says it doesn't. A class like wizard gets +1/2 each level, which equals the 1 every 2 levels the table in the PHB shows. A class like cleric would get +3/4 each level, equalling the 3 every 4 levels the table shows. The fractional bonuses get rounded down, so it doesn't mean anything unless you're multiclassing, in which case it would let a character with 1 level of wizard and 1 of dragonfire adept have a BAB of +1 instead of +0.

[Lionheart]

I like the fractional BAB idea, that definitely makes the builds a little easier. Completely missed that half-giant was a race, I'd always assumed it was a template (like every other half something...) but the human thing is only really for the extra feat, half dragon makes them dragon blooded anyway.

So it would be half dragon half giant Dragonfire Adept 5/Wizard 1/Prestige Bard 14

And half dragon half giant Necropolitan Dread Necro 5/Beguiler 1/Prestige Bard 4/Dirgesinger 5

I think I've got the feats pretty much sorted as well so that's cool. Melodic Casting is so good with a necropolitan, using Perform instead of Concentration is pro when you have 0 Con xD

[thethird]

Instead of necropolitan consider Bonesinger for the undead it is cool and flavorful.

[Lionheart]

Good call. Bonesinger is really nice.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I haven't got the book that one's from. For my curiosity, would you mind sumarizing the template for me?

[J-H]

A Hexblade would make a great cohort for one or both of these.

[Lionheart]

I haven't got the book that one's from. For my curiosity, would you mind sumarizing the template for me?

Yeah, it's from Ghostwalk. It basically gains all the undead traits and immunities, a Gust of Wind like SLA, and a bonus to perform checks because of grooves carved in its bones that create music when the wind blows through them.

It'd work really well with the image I had for the undead guy, so he can look human, but have one skeletal arm, and a hole in his side where his ribs can be seen.

Also, yes. Hexblades make amazing evil lieutenants!

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Yeah, it's from Ghostwalk. It basically gains all the undead traits and immunities, a Gust of Wind like SLA, and a bonus to perform checks because of grooves carved in its bones that create music when the wind blows through them.

It'd work really well with the image I had for the undead guy, so he can look human, but have one skeletal arm, and a hole in his side where his ribs can be seen.Hmm. Interesting. Ghostwalk keeps coming up lately. I might have to look into it.

Thanks much.

[Runestar]

Is it possible to overlook the "bard" part?

For giants, the death giant and eldritch giant (MM3) come to mind. Both are pretty self-contained BBEGs, in that they come with a variety of abilities designed to make a more interesting encounter. At cr16 and 15 respectively, they can be used individually, and then paired up for a final showdown.