OOTS #867 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

CoffeeIncluded

2013-01-30, 01:49 PM

I dunno. I would rather have fiendish creatures die defending my stronghold than celestial ones. They're also unaffected by Blasphemy and Unholy Blight, spells that people up to no good might have prepared.

Yeah, but do you have to be evil-aligned to set up traps that summon fiendish creatures? Also, Belkar's not running anywhere good, and I bet this is still a false gate. Or maybe a gate-before-the-gate so that the party's exhausted and unable to fight whatever's next?

Blisstake

2013-01-30, 01:51 PM

Yeah, but do you have to be evil-aligned to set up traps that summon fiendish creatures? Also, Belkar's not running anywhere good, and I bet this is still a false gate. Or maybe a gate-before-the-gate so that the party's exhausted and unable to fight whatever's next?

False gate or no, it's meant to impede people going after the real gate.

I don't think you need to be evil. The only restriction is a good aligned cleric wouldn't be allowed to cast it. Wizards have no such restrictions as far as I'm aware.

hamishspence

2013-01-30, 01:51 PM

Wouldn't have thought so- creating the trap might count as an evil act like casting the spell would (in most splatbooks)- but a character can commit evil acts without being evil-aligned.

I'm not sure if that is a fiendish dog/wolf/dire wolf etc- with the flame-breath I think it's more likely to be a Hellhound.

gallagher

2013-01-30, 01:51 PM

The first title is "Dungeon Crawlin' Fools"; definitely still applicable. And I can't wait to see how long it's going to take V to snap out of his funk and get back with the rest of the party; I miss the whole-group dynamic.

well, the summoned dog is carrying Belkar away, so I guess it is possible that V runs into him

JennTora

2013-01-30, 01:52 PM

Wonder if the door just leads to Girard's bedroom... it wouldn't be unbelievable for the mighty wizard to want a mighty door with mighty traps for his mighty bedroom.

CoffeeIncluded

2013-01-30, 01:56 PM

False gate or no, it's meant to impede people going after the real gate.

I don't think you need to be evil. The only restriction is a good aligned cleric wouldn't be allowed to cast it. Wizards have no such restrictions as far as I'm aware.

I don't know this either, but I don't think the choice of summoned creature (or at least the type) was completely random.

Wouldn't have thought so- creating the trap might count as an evil act like casting the spell would (in most splatbooks)- but a character can commit evil acts without being evil-aligned.

I'm not sure if that is a fiendish dog/wolf/dire wolf etc- with the flame-breath I think it's more likely to be a Hellhound.

Yeah, because Hellhounds live in heaven. :smalltongue: A hellhound's always evil-aligned, right?

Wonder if the door just leads to Girard's bedroom... it wouldn't be unbelievable for the mighty wizard to want a mighty door with mighty traps for his mighty bedroom.

Pfft, I can just see this happening. Though they might stumble onto something relating to Serini there.

SinsI

2013-01-30, 01:59 PM

I'm surprised the Hell Hound managed to survive two hits from Belkar - 22 hp should be a breeze to a PC of his level...

CoffeeIncluded

2013-01-30, 02:01 PM

I'm surprised the Hell Hound managed to survive two hits from Belkar - 22 hp should be a breeze to a PC of his level...

Haley disarmed the one that gave it stoneskin and haste. Who's to say there weren't other enchantments on it? Or perhaps it could have summoned a powerful one.

Don Ohnic

2013-01-30, 02:01 PM

Nice way to get Roy out of battle, storywise. Well played, Giant.

fergo

2013-01-30, 02:04 PM

Hoping to see some awesome Belkar action in the next few strips :smallbiggrin:

Edhelras

2013-01-30, 02:08 PM

What? No wardrobe malfunction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html)this time? Rich, you're disappointing us....:smallannoyed:

hamishspence

2013-01-30, 02:13 PM

A hellhound's always evil-aligned, right?

They have the Evil subtype (and Lawful subtype) and Always LE in their statblock.

Slayn82

2013-01-30, 02:14 PM

Looks like Belkar finally got a decent mount.

RadicalTurnip

2013-01-30, 02:14 PM

Nice! I like the idea of traps contingent on other traps being disarmed, very cool!

Giggling Ghast

2013-01-30, 02:16 PM

Kind of a clever trap. Wished I thought of it.

t209

2013-01-30, 02:20 PM

I hope they get to the portal on time. Nice doggie though, what is it?

martianmister

2013-01-30, 02:21 PM

Do you know what would be cool? If Belkar dies here because of "mount" he always wanted...

Good strip.

Castamir

2013-01-30, 02:21 PM

What? No wardrobe malfunction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html)this time? Rich, you're disappointing us....:smallannoyed:On a stick figure comic, fanservice is slightly less important.

martianmister

2013-01-30, 02:22 PM

On a stick figure comic, fanservice is slightly less important.

False. Fanservice is important no matter what. :smallamused:

Kurald Galain

2013-01-30, 02:24 PM

Belkar finally gets to unleash the fury!

Ivrytwr

2013-01-30, 02:24 PM

Yeah, new comic!
Nice to see them working together, even if they don't know why Belkar is being helpful.
I like!

Trixie

2013-01-30, 02:26 PM

Did the tool really touched that other trap? :smallcool:

After all, can even 9th level spells be placed in traps? And why is there 9th level right next to several weak spells?

Welf

2013-01-30, 02:29 PM

Did the tool really touched that other trap? :smallcool:

After all, can even 9th level spells be placed in traps? And why is there 9th level right next to several weak spells?

to make low level thieves careless?

Sliver

2013-01-30, 02:31 PM

*Takes notes for game he's running* Yes, go on, go on!

Belkar finally gets to unleash the fury!

Unleash the furry!

Oh, not that kind...

MikelaC1

2013-01-30, 02:34 PM

After all, can even 9th level spells be placed in traps?

Since when did the rules ever apply to OOTS?
And can this be somehow the beginning of the end of Belkar? Say it aint so.

ChrisTilley

2013-01-30, 02:35 PM

I wonder is if Elan's title means there is a dragon on the other side.

ReaderAt2046

2013-01-30, 02:36 PM

On the issue of why Girard's summoning a Hellhound, I suspect that's a Shadow Conjuration (or maybe a Greater Shadow Conjuration). In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if all the wards on the door were Shadowspells, since we know Girard was an illusionist Sorceror, and Shadow Conjuration/Evocation are sort of the the ultimate illusionist's utility spell. Anyway, I suspect Shadow Conjurations don't obey the alignment rules for a true conjuration, just like they beak a lot of other rules.

Quorothorn

2013-01-30, 02:36 PM

Heh, Guidance. Orisons remain useful.

(Actually, that reminds me: why do we have specific terms for D&D 0th-level spells in "cantrip" and "orison", but no such terms for any other spell level? Have I just never heard of them?)

Also, still so pleased whenever a new strip goes up.

hamishspence

2013-01-30, 02:36 PM

There's no cap on spell level of traps given here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#tableCostModifiersforMagicDeviceTraps

Gift Jeraff

2013-01-30, 02:38 PM

I'm more surprised the Draketooths would use a Lawful Outsider, unless it's some Chaotic equivalent. Or is it really just Lawful Good specifically that Girard didn't trust?

LuPuWei

2013-01-30, 02:38 PM

Tension!!! :smalleek:

stsasser

2013-01-30, 02:41 PM

I don't get it. Why is Haley disarming traps that are protecting the Gate?

Zar Peter

2013-01-30, 02:44 PM

I don't get it. Why is Haley disarming traps that are protecting the Gate?

I don't think it's the gate, it's just a door that leeds to the gate. I hope.

Great title, by the way, took me a few moments to get it. :smallbiggrin:

ReaderAt2046

2013-01-30, 02:45 PM

Edhelras

2013-01-30, 02:52 PM

On a stick figure comic, fanservice is slightly less important.

On the contrary! Why, that Haley-show had me almost as excited as Elan, Durkon and the Belkster.... :smallamused:

Mind you, I don't normally prefer skinny girls, but there is something with Haley that just catches me... (not to forget that steaming hot scene (in Origin of PCs?) where she's just about to receive the ranson note concerning her father...)

I don't get it. Why is Haley disarming traps that are protecting the Gate?

WHY? Fan service!!! :smallbiggrin:

Finagle

2013-01-30, 02:53 PM

Burner28

2013-01-30, 02:59 PM

Good strip.

pendell

2013-01-30, 03:18 PM

CRASH!

That sound you just heard was the fourth wall going down.

About time, the thing was starting to stand up so well I was almost beginning to think this strip HAD one. :)

Great strip!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Flame of Anor

2013-01-30, 03:21 PM

I wonder if Belkar will meet up with V, or die, or both.

OOTS_Echoes

2013-01-30, 03:24 PM

Makes me so happy whenever there is a new comic

fishguy

2013-01-30, 03:24 PM

I wonder if Belkar will meet up with V, or die, or both.

Yes! Wouldn't it be a heck of a twist if V, in a reflexive response to the charging hellhound blasts Belkar into his early grave?

Psyren

2013-01-30, 03:35 PM

After all, can even 9th level spells be placed in traps? And why is there 9th level right next to several weak spells?

1) Yes
2) The hasted, stoneskinned Hellhound might've actually done more damage than the MS, so I wouldn't call them "weak."

I don't get it. Why is Haley disarming traps that are protecting the Gate?

To make sure the Gate is really back there. It would be silly if they placed a full guard around that door and the Gate ended up being somewhere else in the building.

Also, their only hope against Xykon is to warn the Gate's guardian (if sapient) that he's coming.

Peelee

2013-01-30, 03:43 PM

Be interesting if Belkar (or potentially Durkon) dies here. Just realized it would be in keeping with someone major kicking the bucket at each Gate.

Math_Mage

2013-01-30, 03:45 PM

Splitting the party AGAIN? At least last time it was a choice by the party leader. Now, it just smells like "they're too awesome to think of how to challenge them properly so just take the easy way out and split them up so they're not so powerful."

Uh, right. Because it's not like this comic abounds with entities/groups capable of challenging the Order properly...or outright demolishing them, for that matter.

JSSheridan

2013-01-30, 03:45 PM

Thanks Giant!

Anarion

2013-01-30, 03:47 PM

Hmm, interesting setup. I really like seeing Haley disarming traps and putting her class skills to good use, even if she did make a teeny little error there. Belkar is probably being set up for a fall too, but oh well.

I'm more surprised the Draketooths would use a Lawful Outsider, unless it's some Chaotic equivalent. Or is it really just Lawful Good specifically that Girard didn't trust?

Honestly, it's a bound summoned creature, it does what it's told based on whatever spell was cast to set that trap off. Probably kill all intruders. I would expect a practical guy like Draketooth to have poured over whichever ability set he thought would be most useful and selected the creature based on that, regardless of alignment.

ReaderAt2046

2013-01-30, 03:50 PM

He might also find it funny to see the Lawful "get a taste of their own medicine".

Peelee

2013-01-30, 03:53 PM

[reread]

....is...is that hellhound chasing Mr. Scruffy?

rewinn

2013-01-30, 03:56 PM

(Actually, that reminds me: why do we have specific terms for D&D 0th-level spells in "cantrip" and "orison", but no such terms for any other spell level? Have I just never heard of them?)
.
IIRC D+D spells were initially just "spells" and there was no provision for fiddly little magicky stuff not powerful enough to be a spell.
So cantrips were invented as sort of a 0-level spell, but I'm pretty sure authors of the system didn't want to use the term "0-level spell" (...and the mind boggles at the next step: negative 1 level spell) so they used the term cantrip. I'm guessing orisons came about the same way ... after all, even Hamlet's girlfriend Ophelia could use orisons :smalltongue:

I'm more surprised the Draketooths would use a Lawful Outsider...

Maybe Gerard doesn't mind Lawful creatures getting off'd? So long as the critter is aggressive enough to attack whoever's in front of it, maybe Gerard didn't care or actively preferred using Lawfuls.

CRASH!

That sound you just heard was the fourth wall going down. ....

Haley probably didn't worry about triggering the Rune Of Fourth Wall Destruction; this party's set it off more often than V's Explosive Runes :smallamused:

Cuthalion

2013-01-30, 04:00 PM

Wow. earliest I've ever posted. I must say, this thing has got to go kill Redcloak or Xykon or Malack or someone. Not that I want Malack to die, he's just nearby.

Caex

2013-01-30, 04:04 PM

I wonder is if Elan's title means there is a dragon on the other side.

My guess was that "the first title also still applies" means that they are a bunch of "dungeon crawlin' fools."

MoonCat

2013-01-30, 04:06 PM

Stealth insults in the title FTW.

TekHed

2013-01-30, 04:36 PM

Hot Dog on a Stick...I LoLed...

stsasser

2013-01-30, 05:16 PM

They're trying to get to the Gate so Durkon can muster up a gaggle of angels as an ambush for Nale and Sabine. But yeah, it might be smarter to hide out and let Nale and Malack try to get through the defenses.

Yup. They formulated that 'gaggle of angels' plan before they found this nifty prefab ambush ready and waiting. A well-aimed arrow from cover might even trigger all the traps onto Tarquin & Co. in one blast.

CoffeeIncluded

2013-01-30, 05:22 PM

Yup. They formulated that 'gaggle of angels' plan before they found this nifty prefab ambush ready and waiting. A well-aimed arrow from cover might even trigger all the traps onto Tarquin & Co. in one blast.

And potentially catch the Order in the crossfire. It would be better to have slightly weaker defenses that are targeted specifically for the enemy than stronger defenses that don't care whom they take out. Remember, they don't know Xykon and Redcloak are as close to them as they are.

Mutant Sheep

2013-01-30, 05:22 PM

I wonder is if Elan's title means there is a dragon on the other side.

Maybe a corpse...:smalleek:

Great comic as always Mr. Burlewster guy.:smalltongue: Good to know that crippling injuries cant keep you down.

Wordplay

2013-01-30, 05:29 PM

The first one still applies...heheh took me a moment to get that one.

gallagher

2013-01-30, 05:43 PM

2) The hasted, stoneskinned Hellhound might've actually done more damage than the MS, so I wouldn't call them "weak."

you mustn't forget that the hastened, stoneskinned hellhound would not take like any damage from the meteor swarm. He could be intended for mop-up duty.

shp

2013-01-30, 06:21 PM

Durkon's guidance +1 doesn't stack with Elan's inspire competence +2, so it's wasted?

Kareasint

2013-01-30, 06:26 PM

Wonder if the door just leads to Girard's bedroom... it wouldn't be unbelievable for the mighty wizard to want a mighty door with mighty traps for his mighty bedroom.

Doubt it. You do not load a door up this much unless you are protecting something or creating a diversion. I bet that there are Alarm spells are going off all over the pyramid also.

Having said that, I still believe that this is a false door meant to slow down intruders and locate them for the defenders. V is probably in the tunnel leading to the gate. Using Stone Shape to bury the Gate in solid rock still seems like the best defense with an epic level spell caster. you then create an endless number of false doors, corridors, dead ends (figuratively and literally), traps and illusions to keep invaders guessing.

jere7my

2013-01-30, 06:26 PM

IIRC D+D spells were initially just "spells" and there was no provision for fiddly little magicky stuff not powerful enough to be a spell.
So cantrips were invented as sort of a 0-level spell, but I'm pretty sure authors of the system didn't want to use the term "0-level spell" (...and the mind boggles at the next step: negative 1 level spell) so they used the term cantrip. I'm guessing orisons came about the same way ...

Correct! Though the term "0-level spell" was there all along. Specifically, cantrips were introduced (by Gygax himself) in Dragon 59 (March 1982), thusly: "Cantrips are merely 0-level magic-user spells, the spells learned and used by apprentices during their long, rigorous and tedious training for the craft of magic-use." They went on to appear in Unearthed Arcana (1985), and became a part of the "official" rules of 1st edition.

Then, for Dragon 108 (April 1986), Arthur Collins wrote an article called "Cantrips for clerics," which begins, "By now, everyone ought to be familiar with cantrips, the 0-level spells cast by apprentice magic-users and illusionists. This article details a similar sort of 0-level spell particularly for clerics and druids, called the orison." Guidance was not among them.

Both cantrips and orisons are forgotten by most characters when they reach 1st level, but players were allowed to opt to "remember" some number of them in place of a first-level spell. The article on orisons adds that even rangers and paladins might remember a few from their religious training, for parties that are short on clerics.

Collins also says, "These 0-level clerics and druids are sometimes called postulants, thurifers, servers, or inquirers. They are also called gofers by some, as their place in the religious hierarchy is such that they are always being told to 'go fer this' and 'go fer that.' (The druidical cult spells it gopher, but that is an inside joke.)" :smallbiggrin:

Guy Incognito

2013-01-30, 07:09 PM

I'm pretty sure it's a Nessian warhound, not a hellhound - hellhounds aren't that big, and they'd barely be a speed bump to anything that can tank a Meteor Swarm. Oddly enough, though, Nessian warhounds can't be summoned by Summon Monster, so he's either using some kind of variant spell or one of the components of the trap that Haley missed alters the summoned creature further (maybe Enlarge Monster and Augment Summoning).

Boogastreehouse

2013-01-30, 07:26 PM

Pathfinder, the awesome inheritor of 3.5ed D&D, allows orisons and cantrips to be cast an unlimited number of times per day, and your capacity to memorize more than three or four per day does not increase as it does for spells of other levels.

I imagine magic of the lowest level actually working differently than magic of first level or higher, possibly puzzling wizards who yearn to determine a Unified Theory of Arcane Mechanics.

Stabbey

2013-01-30, 08:09 PM

I like the idea of the carefully trapped door. I don't think that Belkar will die here from something as apparently nonthreatening as the dog. It's more likely that he'll run into V instead.

Caex

2013-01-30, 08:18 PM

Guy Incognito

2013-01-30, 09:15 PM

The base hellhound is a medium creature, but they can be advanced to large. That would also bump up the hit points, as the large version has 9-12 HD, rather than the base 4 HD.

A Nessian warhound IS a 12-HD hellhound. I just used the term because that seems to be what the hound here is based on.

ManuelSacha

2013-01-30, 09:21 PM

And potentially catch the Order in the crossfire. It would be better to have slightly weaker defenses that are targeted specifically for the enemy than stronger defenses that don't care whom they take out. Remember, they don't know Xykon and Redcloak are as close to them as they are.

And if they expect it... well, in that case relying on defences that work only once against two groups of enemies wouldn't be the smartest choice: once the traps go off, there's nothing to stop the second band of baddies that comes along.

B. Dandelion

2013-01-30, 10:02 PM

And so the party splits again. Fortunately last we checked the LG was similarly broken up. I do still wonder if in keeping with this pattern something won't break apart Team Evil when they arrive too.

Chaotic Queen

2013-01-30, 11:04 PM

It bugs me a little that Haley used that over-rated "X Y is X" meme, but other than that, this was an awesome strip. I think we'll need some heavy duty glue to fix the fourth wall!

Yendor

2013-01-30, 11:20 PM

It bugs me a little that Haley used that over-rated "X Y is X" meme, but other than that, this was an awesome strip. I think we'll need some heavy duty glue to fix the fourth wall!

The Order of the Stick: Making fourth walls a favoured enemy since 2003!

fan4battle

2013-01-30, 11:42 PM

I just love OOTS, every new page fills me with joy. :smallsmile:

Xacal

2013-01-31, 12:30 AM

Huh. Like a lot of other people posting, I kind of get the feeling that Belkar is riding off to his death... Could a hellhound somehow carry HIM back with it to Hell, in a literal sense?
And meeting up with V might now be a good thing for Belkar, either... at one moment, he could be talking to V, but the next...

he could be facing a certain trio of hooded gentlemen.

Thrillhouse

2013-01-31, 12:50 AM

Regarding some of those earlier posts about not disarming the traps and using them on the Linear Guild instead:

You'd think that Elan's mastery of narrative structure would have him pointing out that whenever the good guys go through the dungeon, beating all the monsters, undoing all the traps, and so on, it just makes it easier for the bad guys to jump in right after they get there. Of course, Elan might be happy with the whole thing, since this would mean a dramatic showdown that the good guys are sure to win, or at least survive.

orrion

2013-01-31, 12:54 AM

Couldn't it be a Nessian Warhound instead? Warhounds have 100+ hp, so that would explain why it didn't die when Belkar stabbed it.

Warhounds are described to be as large as a draft horse, and that one sure looks as big or bigger than the horses the Order used to ride.

Winter

2013-01-31, 01:20 AM

Roy: "Meteor Swam? Pah, been there, done that!" :smallyuk:

dtilque

2013-01-31, 02:27 AM

Haley probably didn't worry about triggering the Rune Of Fourth Wall Destruction; this party's set it off more often than V's Explosive Runes :smallamused:

The 4th wall of this strip has been reduced to a pile of quantum dots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_dot) by all the breakage it's undergone.

Adeptus

2013-01-31, 02:32 AM

What do you know, an appropriate enemy for our violent little ranger.

And how great is it that the Giant can draw again :elan:

factotum

2013-01-31, 03:17 AM

It's more likely that he'll run into V instead.

And V would kill him because...?

Math_Mage

2013-01-31, 03:19 AM

And V would kill him because...?

Stabbey didn't actually imply that hir would, though it is easy to read that into his post.

Tundar

2013-01-31, 04:17 AM

After all, can even 9th level spells be placed in traps? And why is there 9th level right next to several weak spells?

Traps are expensive!
But after all, haste is a great "low level" spell.

Don Ohnic

2013-01-31, 06:08 AM

Regarding the weakness of summoning just a dog: Although the dog was intended to be majorly buffed, I think it is more important to consider that the dog threat corresponds only to a few of the trap runes. If the trap was set of properly the buffed dog would represent just a fraction of the challenge rating. This would probably have been a very powerful trap indeed if it was concealed by illusions.

warmachine

2013-01-31, 06:21 AM

The breathe weapon is an area effect weapon where you still take damage even if you make the Reflex save. Unless you have Evasion. As he's not scorched, Mr. Scruffy must have Evasion. That's an awesome cat.

elros

2013-01-31, 06:55 AM

I'm just glad the Giant's thumb is working again. Love reading this comic!

Bulldog Psion

2013-01-31, 07:21 AM

Excellent comic! Thank you, Mr. Burlew! :smallsmile:

3d6

2013-01-31, 08:27 AM

I'm surprised the Hell Hound managed to survive two hits from Belkar - 22 hp should be a breeze to a PC of his level...

Hmm...then it must be a WTHellHound.

3d6

2013-01-31, 08:31 AM

"Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle..."

LOL! Great stuff, Mr. Burlew!

So when will Elan adopt a "rockstar" persona that appeals even more to Haley's (and every other female's) "bad girl" side?

Cheers!

Cynric

2013-01-31, 09:42 AM

"So when will Elan adopt a "rockstar" persona that appeals even more to Haley's (and every other female's) "bad girl" side?

Please don't turn Elan into Brook.

Adeptus

2013-01-31, 10:13 AM

So when will Elan adopt a "rockstar" persona that appeals even more to Haley's (and every other female's) "bad girl" side?

Where do you guys get this stuff from? :sigh:

Caex

2013-01-31, 10:13 AM

A Nessian warhound IS a 12-HD hellhound. I just used the term because that seems to be what the hound here is based on.

Ah, I probably should have double checked my source material. Now I just feel silly. Carry on, then.

sims796

2013-01-31, 10:29 AM

Hmm...then it must be a WTHellHound.

Ha!

I don't get what the strip's title could be referencing "The First Title Still Applies".

Gift Jeraff

2013-01-31, 10:33 AM

Ha!

I don't get what the strip's title could be referencing "The First Title Still Applies".

It's saying they're still Dungeon Crawlin' Fools.

Adeptus

2013-01-31, 10:38 AM

Ha!

I don't get what the strip's title could be referencing "The First Title Still Applies".
http://www.giantitp.com/Images/products/OOTS04_7in72dpi_RGBds.gif

And indeed, still Dungeon Crawling Fools as well.

Kish

2013-01-31, 10:41 AM

Actually, it's been quite a while--since the Dungeon of Dorukan, unless I've forgotten something--since they've been dungeon crawling. So the title also points out that they're actually in a dungeon again.

willpell

2013-01-31, 10:47 AM

Puppy dog tails! :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

It goes without saying at this point that the Giant is brilliant, but I'm especially loving this strip. The deeper into the pyramid we go and the more spread out the cast becomes, the better I get the "maze of illusions" feel that Girard is all about. Clever dungeon exposed for all to see, when it was never meant to be - it's beautiful.

hamishspence

2013-01-31, 10:47 AM

The black dragon's cave might count- in the most general sense.

St Fan

2013-01-31, 10:53 AM

Please notice that the magic color aura of the hell hound's summoning is the same shade of purple as used by Girard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html). Nice continuity bit.

My bet goes on a large-sized hell hound too.

And no, Belkar ain't going to die from a meager summoned monster. You guys should stop repeating that every time the party meet some slight danger.

SteveDJ

2013-01-31, 11:20 AM

And so the party splits again.

Why is everyone saying this is splitting the party? The party was already split when V ran off - many, many strips ago... :smallbiggrin:

Bulldog Psion

2013-01-31, 11:40 AM

It certainly doesn't look good (pun intended) alignment-wise that Girard has an evil creature guarding one of his gates, though.

AgentofHellfire

2013-01-31, 12:15 PM

And no, Belkar ain't going to die from a meager summoned monster. You guys should stop repeating that every time the party meet some slight danger.

Well, not from the monster itself, anyway...

Vinsfeld

2013-01-31, 12:50 PM

If the defenses and illusions were all up, I'd say that this is the best guarded gate so far.

Vreejack

2013-01-31, 02:13 PM

The way I used to run it, demons and devils were just tools, and summoning them per se was not an evil act unless you were reckless. For determining recklessness I would compare wisdom and intelligence between them. If the summoner was not significantly smarter and wiser than his target then he was being reckless with powerful forces of evil, but if he was summoning a hell hound to guard some dangerous device then it was neutral.

As always, intent plays an important role, but reckless disregard for others is also criminal. As to what you were doing summoning fiends in the first place, that had to stand on its own.

Shadebolt

2013-01-31, 03:11 PM

partial sarcasm on*
Can you believe it? Belkar finally gets to unleash the fury he's always wanted to, but he doesn't realize it! :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:
partial sarcasm off*

davidbofinger

2013-01-31, 05:08 PM

My guess was that "the first title also still applies" means that they are a bunch of "dungeon crawlin' fools."

Could be. Or "Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales" also kind of fits. At least the "Dragon Tales" bit is very active at the moment, and they've allowed a possible diversion to slow themselves to the speed of snails, and characters are being snipped away one by one.

Probably almost anything fits if you work at it.

B. Dandelion

2013-01-31, 05:12 PM

Why is everyone saying this is splitting the party? The party was already split when V ran off - many, many strips ago... :smallbiggrin:

That's what I meant by "again", actually. They lost V and then they lost Belkar. Likewise the LG lost Malack/Qarr and then Sabine.

Toper

2013-01-31, 05:16 PM

I love the art in this one!

denthor

2013-01-31, 06:47 PM

The gate lies between Girards buttcheeks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html)!?

I do not see anthing that are cheeky do you?

ReaderAt2046

2013-01-31, 07:15 PM

Actually, the corpse said that "girard's rift"-as in, his...erm... anal rift... lay between girard's cheeks. Appearantly the corpse's personality retained its tendency to mouth off to LG figures.

dnzrx

2013-01-31, 08:38 PM

Triumphales

2013-01-31, 08:42 PM

Loved it how Belkar said "Missed us" instead of "Missed me". Guess he's taking his relationship with Mr. Scruffy seriously.:smallamused:

Xelbiuj

2013-01-31, 11:54 PM

Big Question:

I am told that :xykon: is running on epic levels, so I am assuming that even Asterial Devas won't stand a chance against him.

The question is: can anything in the Draketooth's compound can stop :xykon: at all?

Xykon alone? Maybe if the OOTS and Linear Guild teamed up.
Xykon, Redcloak, and MitD? Not a frickin chance.
The traps and other defenses set up by Girard are a non-issue.

ti'esar

2013-02-01, 01:02 AM

Please don't turn Elan into Brook.

Who?

Could be. Or "Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales" also kind of fits. At least the "Dragon Tales" bit is very active at the moment, and they've allowed a possible diversion to slow themselves to the speed of snails, and characters are being snipped away one by one.

Probably almost anything fits if you work at it.

I think it's pretty clearly meant to be Dungeon Crawling Fools, i.e. "the first book". Anything else is a shoehorn.

Xykon alone? Maybe if the OOTS and Linear Guild teamed up.
Xykon, Redcloak, and MitD? Not a frickin chance.
The traps and other defenses set up by Girard are a non-issue.

Xykon is probably around 10 levels higher than Redcloak, and the MitD is rarely a factor, so I'm not sure how much they really add to it.

theinsulabot

2013-02-01, 01:37 AM

Xykon, Redcloak, and MitD? Not a frickin chance.
The traps and other defenses set up by Girard are a non-issue.

you may be under estimating Girard. Its possible that all his defenses were shut down, but I actually consider it unlikely. The gates thus far have all had a final trump card which has been sufficient to stymie xykon considerably. My guess is Girard has one last card to play if an enemy reaches the gate itself on an automatic trigger. it wouldn't be unreasonable for the order to unfortunately be the ones to set it off, but whatever Girard's last hurrah is probably strong enough to thwart even xykon and crew in the right circumstances.

Kish

2013-02-01, 08:26 AM

Could be. Or "Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales" also kind of fits.
Aside from "no, it really, really, really doesn't," Haley explicitly said "not that one."

Snails

2013-02-01, 12:05 PM

The hellhound is obviously advanced to large, instead of the usual medium. So we are more likely talking 70+ HP.

By the letter of the law, summoning an evil monster is an Evil act. That is "usually" not considered a problem for arcane casters (like Girard) who do not form an apparent habit, but it is an issue for divine casters.

What is a little odd is that even an advanced hellhound is probably only in the ballpark of a Summon Monster VI, which seems like such small potatoes compared to Meteor Swarm. Summon Monster VIII or IX could actually cause the Order real trouble, in tandem with the Meteor Swarm.

Nonetheless, hellhound is not a bad choice both because it is immune to the Meteor Swarm and the fact it is evil. Enemies adventuring in are most likely to sport Protection from Good, which will not help here. Mixing up the kinds of summoned critters is a smart tactic.

Snails

2013-02-01, 12:12 PM

The question is: can anything in the Draketooth's compound can stop :xykon: at all?

The answer for the first three Gates has been "yes (sort of)". That the first line (secrecy) and second line (Clan Draketooth) has been defeated does not mean there is no meaningful third line -- we do not yet know. The ghost martyr's were Soon's third and final line of defense (the first being Azure City itself, the second being the living Sapphire Guard).

Turgon9357

2013-02-01, 03:09 PM

Has anyone else noticed a slight change in Roy as of late? It seems like he is more in control of the party. He's been able to get members to do things they'd rather not (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0846.html), and things he is quite against don't happen without his approval (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0840.html).

I suspect there are a few reasons why. He seems quite familiar with how illusions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0839.html) are used (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0867.html), probably from his father being an illusionist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html). His familiarity with them in an illusion-laden dungeon would certainly make him appear more credible.

Also, I wonder if Belkar not openly defying him lately has changed the group dynamic. It may just be the drop in the total rebellion quotient, though.

Snails

2013-02-01, 06:46 PM

They are growing up and showing better teamwork, all of them. This last ambush was nice leadership on the part of Roy -- he looks for how to use their individual strengths instead of getting so annoyed by the weaknesses.

Note that we were already seeing this when the Linear Guild ambushed the Order in the city. Roy sent Belkar off to help V. V sent Elan off to get Durkon and help Haley. They are starting to really gel as a team.

Jay R

2013-02-01, 10:02 PM

The answer for the first three Gates has been "yes (sort of)". That the first line (secrecy) and second line (Clan Draketooth) has been defeated does not mean there is no meaningful third line -- we do not yet know.

Of course we know that there is a meaningful third line of defense. The Order of the Stick is currently engaged in taking it down.

(It seems really stupid to me, but that's what they are doing.)

rewinn

2013-02-02, 01:42 AM

.... As he's not scorched, Mr. Scruffy must have Evasion. That's an awesome cat.

Most cats have Evasion, when they want something! :smallbiggrin:

FujinAkari

2013-02-02, 10:22 AM

Of course we know that there is a meaningful third line of defense. The Order of the Stick is currently engaged in taking it down.

(It seems really stupid to me, but that's what they are doing.)

Why does it seem stupid to you?

How are you supposed to defend the gate without being at the gate, and keep in mind Xykon can teleport DIRECTLY TO THE GATE.

Peelee

2013-02-02, 12:26 PM

Why does it seem stupid to you?

How are you supposed to defend the gate without being at the gate, and keep in mind Xykon can teleport DIRECTLY TO THE GATE.

We know he can teleport directly to the Gate. This is not to say the Order knows it.

Kish

2013-02-02, 12:32 PM

Peelee

2013-02-02, 12:40 PM

I'm unclear on what we know that the Order doesn't that tells us (but not the Order) that Xykon can teleport directly to the Gate.

...Actually, I'm unclear on where the idea that Xykon can teleport directly to the Gate comes from. He certainly couldn't teleport directly to any previous Gate. He didn't let Redcloak spend all that time trying to extract information on Girard's defenses because he expected to instantly bypass them.

....that's a pretty good point, actually. I assumed he didn't with Dorukan's Gat due to Cloister and Soon's due to the ritual taking several weeks to perform, which would be tricky to do without being interrupted by the city's guard, army, and Paladin force. Assuming he could teleport directly to Girard's Gate, he would want to know what defenses to expect, because that's just a good idea in general. But yeah, I can't recall any time where they said he can teleport straight there.

blazingshadow

2013-02-02, 12:52 PM

he wouldn't teleport directly if the defences were up but if xykon decided to scry for the gate now after teleporting near the canyon there would be nothing stopping him from doing just that.

jedipilot24

2013-02-02, 12:54 PM

I doubt the door Haley is disarming would slow Xykon down appreciably. In the unlikely event there was anything left of it after Superb Dispelling, Xykon would find minions to sacrifice.

Probably wouldn't even require Superb Dispelling, a few Disintegrates would likely do just as well.

Gift Jeraff

2013-02-02, 01:08 PM

They didn't even know where Soon's Gate was, just in Azure City. They had to scry on Miko to get the exact location, and even then Xykon needed to ask Tsukiko which floor the throne room was on. I doubt they could teleport directly Girard's Gate.

FujinAkari

2013-02-02, 01:13 PM

...Actually, I'm unclear on where the idea that Xykon can teleport directly to the Gate comes from.

Because Xykon can teleport and Girard's wards are long since down?

Xykon knows the exact coordinates of the gate, and Xykon is familiar with the scry & die technique. Xykon is "literally trying to take over the entire world" so taking down Azure City was something he wanted to do, but going through a trap-ladden dungeon doesn't further his aims at all, so why would he bother teleporting in anywhere other than the gate?

Peelee

2013-02-02, 01:20 PM

Because Xykon can teleport and Girard's wards are long since down?

Xykon knows the exact coordinates of the gate, and Xykon is familiar with the scry & die technique. Xykon is "literally trying to take over the entire world" so taking down Azure City was something he wanted to do, but going through a trap-ladden dungeon doesn't further his aims at all, so why would he bother teleporting in anywhere other than the gate?

Here is my thought process on the matter: the coordinates are exact enough to tell him exactly where in the desert the gate is, but not exact enough to let him teleport within a few feet of the thing. I think he'll be outside of the thing. Since we're not told how specific "exact coordinates" are (and feel free to link to any source proclaiming me wrong here), this is how I'm reading it.

EDIT: Rather, a long version of what Gift Jeraff said.

FujinAkari

2013-02-02, 01:29 PM

Here is my thought process on the matter: the coordinates are exact enough to tell him exactly where in the desert the gate is, but not exact enough to let him teleport within a few feet of the thing. I think he'll be outside of the thing. Since we're not told how specific "exact coordinates" are (and feel free to link to any source proclaiming me wrong here), this is how I'm reading it.

EDIT: Rather, a long version of what Gift Jeraff said.

Well yeah, I never said the coordinates let Xykon teleport directly to the gate... they would have to scry to find out but... why WOULDN'T they? There is literally nothing stopping them.

allenw

2013-02-02, 02:47 PM

Well yeah, I never said the coordinates let Xykon teleport directly to the gate... they would have to scry to find out but... why WOULDN'T they? There is literally nothing stopping them.

Technically, Scry and Greater Scry only let you find an individual, not an inanimate object. Granted, if Xykon knew that the OotS were near the Gate, he could scry for, say, Belkar (lowest Will save) and then see whatever was near him.
Discern Location lets you find objects, but you need to have touched the object at least once.
And I'd expect Girard's Gate to have had some permanent anti-scrying spells put on it, in any case.

ReaderAt2046

2013-02-02, 02:54 PM

And I'd expect Girard's Gate to have had some permanent anti-scrying spells put on it, in any case.

This is a very good point! Girard was an epic-level illusionist, and his entire defense strategy was to make the Gate unfindable. It would be so obvious for him to shield the Gate against scrying, and it would only make sense for him to make as many of the illusion-sheilds as he could permanent, especially the ones that foil divination.
Also, remember that Xykon couldn't scry Soon's Gate. Maybe the Gates themselves scramble divination since they conduct Snarl energy.

Friv

2013-02-02, 03:31 PM

What is a little odd is that even an advanced hellhound is probably only in the ballpark of a Summon Monster VI, which seems like such small potatoes compared to Meteor Swarm. Summon Monster VIII or IX could actually cause the Order real trouble, in tandem with the Meteor Swarm.

The Nessian Warhound is listed as a CR 9 monster, and is basically an extremely advanced hellhound. From my brief reading, most monsters that are summonable by Summon Monster IX are in the 9-10 range of CR, so it seems to make sense.

Boogastreehouse

2013-02-02, 03:43 PM

...Granted, if Xykon knew that the OotS were near the Gate...

:xykon: "Order of the what?"

davidbofinger

2013-02-03, 06:22 AM

Aside from "no, it really, really, really doesn't," Haley explicitly said "not that one."

I agree it seems clear which book Hayley meant. That doesn't mean Elan is wrong, though. Elan's idiocy causes others, even the besotted Hayley, to discount his ideas. But he's been right recently, about the identity of pseudo-Thog. Maybe he's right about this.

OK, probably not. But maybe.

Jay R

2013-02-03, 11:31 AM

That said, I doubt the door Haley is disarming would slow Xykon down appreciably. In the unlikely event there was anything left of it after Superb Dispelling, Xykon would find minions to sacrifice.

Exactly. It would cost him spells and minions. That's a good thing, remember? Why are they trying to prevent it?

Elan at least should know the trope of the villain showing up after the heroes face all the risks.

Gnoman

2013-02-03, 11:44 AM

As an epic sorcerer, the number of spells that it would cost is trivial, and his minions are only a factor in vast numbers, which they would be able to see coming a long while off, and would have to fight the many soldiers in the area. It is better to get to the gate and set up an active defense that might actually work.

Kish

2013-02-03, 11:52 AM

Exactly. It would cost him spells and minions. That's a good thing, remember? Why are they trying to prevent it?
...They want to get to the Gate. They think they can set up an effective defense there. You're assuming, apparently, that any defense they can set up will automatically be weaker than the passive defenses on that door Haley is disarming.

You may be right. (I mean, I'd bet against you, but I can't prove you're wrong.) But why are you acting like they haven't indicated what they're doing?

Turgon9357

2013-02-03, 01:19 PM

Another point:

Team Evil has every reason to believe that Girard's gate is still guarded by G's clan. While Xykon and Redcloak could probably handle all of them, neither of them want to walk into a trap like they did at Soon's gate. Neither of them are getting any older and the gate isn't going anywhere, so they might as well be as prepared as possible when they storm the place. Redcloak has no idea how over-prepared he is.

oppyu

2013-02-03, 08:19 PM

Wait; when did Belkar get evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html)?

Math_Mage

2013-02-03, 08:28 PM

Wait; when did Belkar get evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html)?

He's had evasion forever; rangers get evasion at 9th level (and the good Reflex save progression to boot), and Belkar was confirmed 11+ levels of ranger as of comic 251. He just doesn't have Haley's Dex.

Yendor

2013-02-03, 08:56 PM

...They want to get to the Gate. They think they can set up an effective defense there. You're assuming, apparently, that any defense they can set up will automatically be weaker than the passive defenses on that door Haley is disarming.

They also have most of Xykon's spell list, which they can plan around. They'll know, for starters, that Xykon could easily dispel his way past this door.

(Incidentally, Xykon isn't taking minons with him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) this time.)

CoffeeIncluded

2013-02-03, 09:19 PM

Exactly. Also, don't forget that any traps left on the door will go off indiscriminately, and probably end up hindering the Order more than the Linear Guild, or Team Evil. Better to have a weaker defense that will be firmly allied with you than a stronger defense that will hurt both sides.

Kish

2013-02-03, 10:00 PM

(Incidentally, Xykon isn't taking minons with him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) this time.)
That's why I said he'd have to find them. :smalltongue: Whether said "finding" would take the form of, "You, desert orcs! Welcome to Xykon's World-Conquering Volunteer Army, you just volunteered!" or, "Wrong-Eye, teleport back to Blueville or whatever you're calling it now and bring back a dozen hobgoblins. You should probably pick ones you're not too attached to," or, "Huh, someone already animated some of the mummies in this room. Luckily, more than half are still here!"

St Fan

2013-02-03, 10:08 PM

Wait; when did Belkar get evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html)?

Since Skullsy turned against him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html).

Jay R

2013-02-04, 01:21 AM

...They want to get to the Gate. They think they can set up an effective defense there. You're assuming, apparently, that any defense they can set up will automatically be weaker than the passive defenses on that door Haley is disarming.

No I think Order, weakened by the passive defenses will be weaker than the Order plus the passive defense.

You may be right. (I mean, I'd bet against you, but I can't prove you're wrong.) But why are you acting like they haven't indicated what they're doing?

I'm not. I'm acting like I think what they've indicated they're doing is foolish.

theNater

2013-02-04, 04:34 AM

No I think Order, weakened by the passive defenses will be weaker than the Order plus the passive defense.
1)The Order needs 8 hours to regain their full strength. The Linear Guild needs about 24(until Sabine's banishment wears off). Team Evil needs however long it takes to find Xykon's phylactery(remember, the Order doesn't know yet), plus a probable 8 hours. Unless the Order takes an excessive amount of time getting through, they will not be weakened by the passive defenses while defending the Gate.

2)These traps don't recognize the Order as friendlies. If the Order engages near the door, it has as much chance of hurting them as their opponents. If the Order engages far from the door, their opponents can recover between dealing with them and it.

3)The Order doesn't know for certain that the Gate is behind this door(note: neither do we). If they set up their defenses based on the assumption that it is, they run the risk of their opponents taking a different path and finding the Gate without engaging them at all.

davidbofinger

2013-02-04, 05:11 AM

They are growing up and showing better teamwork, all of them.

The subject material of OOTS has changed. It started out as a parody of D&D, and a lot of the material was D&D rules related. Then it became character-driven, with stories about the rivalry between Belkar and Varsuvius, Hayley's aphasia, the romance between Elan and Hayley, interactions with evil twins. But more recently it's been a plot-driven story, with most of the stories about the order's efforts to stop Xykon. As the story shifted from character-driven to plot-driven a lot of character quirks receded into the background - still there but more subtle and less driving the plot. One aspect of this change is that characters like Belkar, Elan and Hayley are no longer making as much trouble for Roy's leadership.

I like that OOTS can evolve - it's one reason it has longevity.

Kish

2013-02-04, 08:16 AM

No I think Order, weakened by the passive defenses will be weaker than the Order plus the passive defense.
So...they're supposed to get past this door to look for the Gate, how exactly?

Or are you suggesting they should just assume no one can get to the Gate without going through this door and set up to defend this door instead?

allenw

2013-02-04, 10:36 AM

...They want to get to the Gate. They think they can set up an effective defense there. You're assuming, apparently, that any defense they can set up will automatically be weaker than the passive defenses on that door Haley is disarming.

You may be right. (I mean, I'd bet against you, but I can't prove you're wrong.)

The *many* traps Haley is disarming include at least 1, probably several, 9th-level spells. Any defense they can set up *will* be weaker than the passive defenses on the door.
Their defense will have the advantage of being active, and not entirely spell-based, but even so, the only reason they might do better than the door is because they're Persons of Consequence.

factotum

2013-02-04, 11:45 AM

The *many* traps Haley is disarming include at least 1, probably several, 9th-level spells.

To be fair, it's a 9th-level spell that Xykon has already shown himself immune to--he cast a Meteor Swarm on himself in order to escape from Darth V's Bixby's Crushing Hand in strip #653.

Snails

2013-02-04, 12:41 PM

Their defense will have the advantage of being active, and not entirely spell-based, but even so, the only reason they might do better than the door is because they're Persons of Consequence.

No, the main reason they can do better than the door is they can use teamwork, and can potentially disrupt spells while also dishing out damage. Xykon is a very difficult target to fight one-on-one, but there are team tactics that can reduce him to a simple bag of hit points.

Besides, Xykon has already demonstrated that he can breeze through a measly 9th level spell or two.

These defenses may be weakening the Order, in the short term, but Roy is making a calculated risk that his team can take care of the LG and get back to full strength. That is an investment of 72 hours, assuming the Order vs. LG combat goes well.

As a practical matter, Roy has only 3 choices: (A) hope that he can beat the LG within a 2-3 day time frame, (B) cut a deal with Tarquin, or (C) sit on his hands.

A may not go well, but it is a better bet than C. B is possible, but the fact Tarquin is coming at them disguised gives good reason to not be optimistic -- Tarquin is choosing to force their hand.

TheRiov

2013-02-04, 01:34 PM

Why is the hellhound running? It would be useless as a trap if the thing fled if overpowered... so why is it sprinting off?

Kish

2013-02-04, 01:38 PM

The *many* traps Haley is disarming include at least 1, probably several, 9th-level spells. Any defense they can set up *will* be weaker than the passive defenses on the door.
I don't think any defense they set up will have the "cease to exist if Xykon casts Superb Dispelling" problem the door's passive defenses do. So, I disagree. And as far as I can tell, your argument is that "ninth level spells" inherently means "more power" than an entire group that doesn't have ninth level spells, without any consideration of anything other than the spell level. Spells do not equal power. Power equals power. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html)

Why is the hellhound running? It would be useless as a trap if the thing fled if overpowered... so why is it sprinting off?
I doubt the hellhound has specific instructions, rather than just attacking on sight. The trap is its aggression, not its loyalty, and it has a stabby halfling on its back.

--Then again, it's also possible that it's very specifically programmed to take any chance to split an enemy party by carrying one member as far from the others as possible. Who knows?

Snails

2013-02-04, 02:03 PM

When the defenses were fully powered up and manned, splitting the intruding party is the superior tactic.

Or maybe it is just "dumb luck" (that will so happen to allow some plot progression for Belkar).

rewinn

2013-02-04, 03:00 PM

Why is the hellhound running? It would be useless as a trap if the thing fled if overpowered... so why is it sprinting off?
Some dogs like to grab their food and run off to play with it, rather than share with everyone else in the room.

Practically speaking, if you're a solo attacker and you don't have an area-of-effect damaging attack sufficient to take out the defending party before it mobs you, why *not* run away with one of them to munch in solitude? After lunch, you can come back for another round.

Deepbluediver

2013-02-04, 03:31 PM

Belkar is off to rescue Versuvius; that's my guess anyhow.

But more importantly- I was reading this comic for years before I ever so much as glanced at the forums, and now I check out the forums at least 2-3 times per day, while the comics have been somewhat sporadic lately.
I'm busy making a post in another thread, and I just happen to glance over and notice:
"Oh hey! A new comic is up! ...When did that get posted?"
*browse* *browse* "5 DAYS AGO?!?!"

Does anyone else find this happening to them?

rewinn

2013-02-04, 05:12 PM

Belkar is off to rescue Versuvius; that's my guess anyhow....

That might happen as a matter of narrative, but it's not his present intent. My guess as to what happens is Belkar encounters ... Malack who is outraged to see Belkar killing his missing hellhound, slays him and raises him as a kill-happy undead abomination, that neither breaths nor desires birthday cake.

No-one notices the difference.

Snails

2013-02-04, 06:30 PM

rewinn,

Please note that I behaved myself and did not bring that up. :smallbiggrin:

I think it is reasonable to speculate it is somewhat likely that the fleeing hell-puppy will prove to be a thinly disguised plot device to give Belkar the chance to interact with someone else within the complex. His likely options are: V, Blackwing, Qarr, Malack.

There are other possibilities (e.g. Belkar finds V. And with his painfully rudimentary tracking skills and V's help, they arrive just in time to saves the Order's bacon from Tarquin or Xykon).

Mordar

2013-02-04, 07:47 PM

Why is the hellhound running? It would be useless as a trap if the thing fled if overpowered... so why is it sprinting off?

Um, because he's a dog and a cat is running away from him? No caster there to direct it, so I'm going with it reverting to type...it is, after all, the Second Canine Imperative. :smallamused:

- M

Jay R

2013-02-04, 10:33 PM

Why is the hellhound running? It would be useless as a trap if the thing fled if overpowered... so why is it sprinting off?

The most deadly traps have more than one step.

Step one is to split the party.

Gift Jeraff

2013-02-04, 10:52 PM

I figured the hound is either chasing Mr. Scruffy or trying to shake Belkar off.

Mr. Pants

2013-02-05, 12:31 PM

If he's doing the former, Belkar's not going to be happy. :furious:

SteveDJ

2013-02-05, 04:01 PM

I can see it now -- Haley finally gets through the traps... they open the door... and there waiting on the other side is Xykon...

:xykon: "What took you guys so long?" :smallbiggrin:

Deepbluediver

2013-02-05, 05:10 PM

That might happen as a matter of narrative, but it's not his present intent.

Nothing that isn't killing is EVER Belkar's intent...but he manages to accomplish quite a bit anyway, just by happening to be at the right place at the right time. :smalltongue:

I can see it now -- Haley finally gets through the traps... they open the door... and there waiting on the other side is Xykon...

:xykon: "What took you guys so long?" :smallbiggrin:

As funny as that would be, it doesn't seem plausible given the time constraints everyone is working under. Xykon had months to restock and re-trap Dorukan's dungeon, he's probably had a few days at most to work on this one. And while he knows the actual location, I don't think he has enough info to just teleport directly into the gate-room.

Tragak

2013-02-05, 08:11 PM

Nonetheless, hellhound is not a bad choice both because it is immune to the Meteor Swarm and the fact it is evil. Enemies adventuring in are most likely to sport Protection from Good, which will not help here. Mixing up the kinds of summoned critters is a smart tactic.

He could also have been counting on the fact that paladins can Smite Evil and would have a better chance of surviving than truly Evil intruders would.

Deepbluediver

2013-02-05, 09:22 PM

He could also have been counting on the fact that paladins can Smite Evil and would have a better chance of surviving than truly Evil intruders would.

Ok, knowing what we do about Girard's opinion of Soon and his "facist paladin lackeys (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html)" do you really, TRUELY think that was a concern?

oppyu

2013-02-06, 12:01 AM

He could also have been counting on the fact that paladins can Smite Evil and would have a better chance of surviving than truly Evil intruders would.
If anything, Girard probably had a long list of traps specifically designed to kill paladins and any other Lawful organisation.

CoffeeIncluded

2013-02-06, 12:56 PM

Maybe he felt like trolling them a bit?

Snails

2013-02-06, 01:01 PM

Against Soon's "fascist lackeys", the puppy would be practically worthless, but Meteor Swarm stands as a pretty good choice. I would assume that Girard thought about that, and called it good enough.

Warren Dew

2013-02-06, 03:19 PM

No, the main reason they can do better than the door is they can use teamwork, and can potentially disrupt spells while also dishing out damage. Xykon is a very difficult target to fight one-on-one, but there are team tactics that can reduce him to a simple bag of hit point.
No, the main reason they can do better is that the traps are designed to work in concert with illusions that no longer exist.

CoffeeIncluded

2013-02-06, 03:25 PM

Exactly. Oh, I hope there's a sampling of what illusions there would have been if the clan were still alive in the book.

ReaderAt2046

2013-02-06, 04:03 PM

Exactly. Oh, I hope there's a sampling of what illusions there would have been if the clan were still alive in the book.

See the fourth panel of this comic(http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=541) for a really epic trap/illusion combo.

Snails

2013-02-06, 04:31 PM

No, the main reason they can do better is that the traps are designed to work in concert with illusions that no longer exist.

That was not quite the issue on hand. The assertion offered by allenw was the the Order was doing Xykon or Nale a favor by taking down traps, especially on this door.

The *many* traps Haley is disarming include at least 1, probably several, 9th-level spells. Any defense they can set up *will* be weaker than the passive defenses on the door.
Their defense will have the advantage of being active, and not entirely spell-based, but even so, the only reason they might do better than the door is because they're Persons of Consequence.

Amarsir

2013-02-06, 09:18 PM

It would be nice to see the order supplement the remaining defenses, rather than disarm and (plan to) replace them. But I have to agree that their best course of action right now is gaining knowledge, which means finding the gate.

I doubt the hellhound has specific instructions, rather than just attacking on sight. The trap is its aggression, not its loyalty, and it has a stabby halfling on its back.

--Then again, it's also possible that it's very specifically programmed to take any chance to split an enemy party by carrying one member as far from the others as possible. Who knows?
Under the circumstances, a better instruction would probably be to attack the disarming rogue and trigger other traps. But of course that's a little too omnicient for a hellhound trap and "act naturally" would be a reasonable expectation.

Snails

2013-02-06, 11:36 PM

It could be just be plain old canine instinct bubbling up, but the best plan for a lone summoned critter is to attack the weakest available member of the enemy party first. Since it is a good bet Mr. Scruffy is the weakest target, if the cat flees down the corridor, that would be the way to go.

Forikroder

2013-02-06, 11:36 PM