CR, EL of a variable party

[javijuji]

I have ran into a small conundrum with our group.

Person A: Optimized a lot
Person B: Optimized a little
Person C: Does not optimize
Player D: Underoptimizes

The problem I am running into is the following. Lets say this is a lvl 5 party. Now player A can fight CR 8-9 with no problems. And Person B can tag along. But player C and D cannot without having a very high chance of dying. So If i stick to CR 5 then player A and B just blow everything up in 1 round. Which makes it kinda boring for everyone. But, if I increase the difficulty (Via stronger monsters) then Player D is gonna end up dying. Not only this, but also the party is gonna level up faster since they are in fact fighting higher CR. I am not sure what to do. Since player C and D are in it for the role playing while player's A and B are more used to PC gaming and see the game more linearly (Kill+Loot+Level up)

Also player A will tend to abuse his power by bossing the party around. Player's A and B tend to PvP each other a lot. Which tends to cause even more optimization.

[javijuji]

And the only one dealing with the consequences of A and B are C and D.

Since they are the ones that are gonna die from higher CR monsters and they are the ones getting bossed around by either A or B.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ask Player A to rein it in, and ask him and B to give C and D a hand with character building? Steer C and D in the direction of classes with higher optimization floors (ToB, Beguiler, Dread Necro, etc)? Move for a system less sensitive to optimization differences?

[javijuji]

Im also not sure how to manage individual xp. In our last session the bard diplomacied his way out of an encounter with 3 satyrs. So I gave everyone the share of the XP. Was I supposed to give the bard a plus?

What if the barbarian decides to duel an NPC. Does the whole party get experience for a 1 on 1?

[Zman]

Ask Player A to rein it in, and ask him and B to give C and D a hand with character building? Steer C and D in the direction of classes with higher optimization floors (ToB, Beguiler, Dread Necro, etc)? Move for a system less sensitive to optimization differences?

This is good advice.

And if at lvl5 the party of 4 can hand CR 8-9 fights with ease, then they need to really be reigned in.

[javijuji]

Player C does not want help with his character sheet. He is not into optimizing. Player D has been given help in the past and this only ended up in him not knowing how to use his character. In our last group the DM gave player D access to all the wizard spells in the game in his wizard book. He was still useless.

[Zman]

Player C does not want help with his character sheet. He is not into optimizing. Player D has been given help in the past and this only ended up in him not knowing how to use his character. In our last group the DM gave player D access to all the wizard spells in the game in his wizard book. He was still useless.

Then I'd work on getting A and B to bring themselves down to a manageable power level then. Shoot for CR appropriate as a whole even with C and D.

[Kornaki]

If he just refuses to be good at the game there's nothing you can really do about it. A and B will probably be just as resistant to knocking down their character levels (especially since the current status quo doesn't really hurt them at all) as C and D are about upping theirs

The hard to implement answer is to have a challenge which stresses all of them with different parts. A big demon appears that A and B start attacking, but then he summons a horde of imps behind them that C and D have to fight off, and things like that. It is harder to construct and balance these encounters though so don't feel like you have to do it every time. The easier alternative is to put in harder creatures which only focus on killing A and B (the in game justification is that they are clearly more dangerous) - but occasionally fight guys who decide to attack the weakest link to keep things more interesting


For the bard I would give everyone XP. His ability to diplomacy his way out probably was aided by the fact that the satyrs were going to in for a tough fight (if the rest of the party wasn't there they would just kill the bard with less worries), and if there's ever a fight where the bard is worthless, he would still get XP for it. It's very difficult to say where the dividing line is for "you didn't do anything so you don't get XP". Also the rest of the group would never let the bard do diplomacy again if he's stealing their XP.

For the barbarian dueling an NPC it's very clear (unless the duel was only able to come about because of assistance from the party) that the barbarian is the only one fighting and taking the risk of combat on, so giving him all the XP is OK, but be careful about this because your players may decide to go seeking out more duels to outlevel the rest of the party (which means A and B in particular will be blowing C and D out of the water) so you might want to give them all equal XP anyway.

If you want to reward somebody beyond XP it can be a story reward - for winning this duel you're now a duke! Or maybe they gain contacts that will let them get out of trouble or find extra quests . I don't recommend a straight item reward because of the same 'A and B going out to get extra magic items' possibility (or at least tell them they can't do that if they try)

[javijuji]

The problem I had is the party did not like me giving XP to the barbarian for the duel. They said if individual XP is gonna be given then the "Rogue should only get the XP for the traps and no one else" since they arent even helping.

[Kornaki]

If the party doesn't want the xp to be split then just don't split the xp... unless you have some sort of burning desire to see unequal levels in the party it's definitely easier to maintain balance wise if they're all the same level

[Shining Wrath]

Your biggest problem is "D". Someone who won't even try to play the game well is a drag.

Each class has strengths and weaknesses. You haven't told us what classes each one is running, although I smell "caster" for A :smallsigh:

Magic-resistant monsters where A has to buff C for the party to win?

[Toy Killer]

Typically, when I design encounters, I loathe the "20x20 room + Monster = Done!" formula. It's shoddy at best and it takes away a lot of verisimilitude of the story, if that's what your going for as a DM.

Try, instead of stand 'em up and fight kind of encounters (Which is the sound of what you're going for) try tailoring them to each individual player, not to challenge each of them, but to get the team to work together.

Maybe I'm fuddling this up a bit

So, Player A is a wizard of uberlitude, Player B is a CoDzilla, Player C is a Hexblade with a Grimdark back story and a silver tongue and Player D is a Grapple Barbarian who wants the biggest stick he can swing.

At level 5, Player A is already able to mow down things that the party could already handle. Player B holds his own decently. Player C performs as well as expected from a hexblade without optimization. Player D causes too many face palms, as he doesn't understand the grapple rules.

The fearsome four are out to recover ancient evil in a can before the other evil figures out where they placed their can-opener, on behalf of the church of Hienz; the evil canner.

If you throw down something too tough, the party has a fifty/fifty to Yawn at it, or lose a couple of dead weight players (From perspective of the Wizard at least). Thrown down something too low, and the encounter is over before the Hexblade and The Barbarian get a chance to get in the action, You want a good pre-boss fight encounter. What's a DM to do?

DM Fiat to the rescue!

I say DM Fiat, but really, I mean: Make s*** up. Not on the fly, naturally, but something that tailors itself to your needs.

First, lets take care of the grapple barbarian. He may not 'get' grappling (with that big ol' great club of his) but that doesn't mean other things won't think twice about grappling him. So... How about a big thingy that wants to grapple... Owlbear works, but it's a little too high for him on his own. drop a hit dice, a couple points of strength, and he'll have about a two thirds chance to win a grapple check against it. Good! He can effectively beat that in a grapple and who cares what the owlbear was thinking? wizard would've been a better option for grappling, but who cares? You played the Barbarian to his strengths and let him have fun with his character (perfect for a pre-boss fight)

But, what about the Hexblade, he needs something to talk to, with that high powered charisma score of his. Something that the wizard can't one shot and the cleric can't gang up on with him. When talking is the only option, I can't help but love to use ghosts. So versatile. Even though the wizard can attack the ghost, doesn't mean that he wants too... How about an ancient Ogre druid spirit. stats are meaningless as long as he serves his purpose, if the wizard attempts to kill it, it just makes him angry. (Choo Choo! I know) In fact, it may be a good idea to let the wizard think he can take him down and realize the only way is to talk him out of the fight. Maybe he can summon the Owlbear for the grapple barb to fight!

Now the cleric. Undead are usually efficient enough with clerics around. But if the cleric can kill thirty skellies by himself, let him. The ground rises with skeletons of the fallen druids, whom worshiped Bob, ogre druid. Exact number to be determained later. The point is, they are small enough to not threaten the Hexblade, swarm the non-believer and ignore the barbarian (In lieu of the cleric and wizard. fluffing will come later.)

Finally the wizard. Wizard has battlefield control, polymorphing, summons of his own and what the hell ever else he seemingly needs. Against wizards, I like creatures that have superior maneuverability, Syringes fit the bill here. Dangerously lethal to any character when unchecked, but especially a wizard, who doesn't have hit points to spare, even if he does have con (And what optimizer wouldn't put con as his second choice.)

Finally the encounter is gathered up and ready to be fleshed out and smoothed over:

Obu, the Spirit of Ferality

The players explore the deeper confines of the ruined underground academy and discover a room with a petrified oak tree in the center. the room is circular and the tree has been grown around a stairway in the northern side of it. The stone bark hums with excitement as the players enter the room. The branches reach up to the center of the ceiling and sprawl outward onto the walls, stony leafs precariously dangling from the branches. The floor is littered with skeletons of goblins, arranged with tribal war paint and claw like weapons on their clutched fists. Curiously, hanging from the stairway is a sign, remarkably fresh compared to the Oak itself, saying "Only the Welcome Obu" written in [Language the Hexblade speaks, preferably exclusively.]

If the party advances any closer to the Oak, Obu Appears and the goblin's rise up. He makes some petty threats against them and summons the Owlbear (With a full Aztecan headdress on) to attack them. As the goblins fall, they reassemble. Make sure that when the wizard makes his knowledge checks, he is unmistaken in the futility of continuing the fight. When the owlbear dies, it's body fades away and Obu Summons him again. And when the first character takes any kind of damage, release four or five syringes. add two or three whenever one gets killed/lost. The Hexblade will have to realize that he has a particular skill set here that helps the party out and use it. He has to fool Obu into thinking that he is friendly. The party gets to use all their tricks and play to their capacity, the wizard only has so many useful talents that he has to focus on the syringes. The Cleric can keep skeletons at bay while the party tries to figure out how to get past the ghost ogre. The Barbarian gets to find his character suprisingly good at a niche fighting style and the Hexblade gets to save the Day with a character that is, admittedly, under par.

Hope this helps!

[javijuji]

Wow. That was beautiful. I thank you for your time and your words. I am sketching your adventure right now.

[RoseyNZ]

ToyKiller, I want you to be my DM....

I'm all for people playing their character their way, but some helpful tips from the group is nice.

I found it hard to run pre-defined encounters with my group, so tended to throw more fighting plebs at the more powerful guys, while being more tailored to the less-powergaming / more roleplaying types.

The fighter who likes to enlarge and hack down baddies gets 30 town guards to hold off, while the caster crowd controls their support & the stealthy and/or talky one has to find the person in charge & take him down/talk him out of it.