Are there any REALLY stupid dragons?

[Larkas]

I am currently homebrewing a monster, and it is going to be pretty much a Wyvern on steroids. However, it is a predatory beast, cunning, but not necessarily intelligent. It is certainly nowhere near intelligent enough to be able to speak, for example. The least intelligent dragons I could find were the Wyvern proper and the White Dragon Wyrmling, but they check at Int 6, and are capable of speech. Stupid, but undoubtly much more intelligent than what I have in mind.

I want Int 3, 4 at most. Think "Tarrasque stupid". I can't find any dragons that match this criteria, be they lesser or true. Add that to the fact that this monster shouldn't be immune to sleep and/or paralysis (though not necessarily magical) and I am left wondering if Dragon is really the type I want, or if I should choose Magical Beast instead. These things should be relatives to true dragons' ancestors, however. So... Yeah, I'm not sure of what I should do. What do you guys think? Is it OK to have a very low Int, incapable of speech and vulnerable to sleep Dragon?

PS: For the record, this is the beastie:

http://reikichi25.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/mhhc-rathalos_001.jpg

[ArcturusV]

Try Wurms? I seem to recall they are lower on the intelligence scale. Sure, they don't usually have wings, limbs, or breathe fire. But otherwise are fairly "Draconian" in look. It might be a base that you can apply a few templates and/or mutations to, to end up with what you want in a weird backwards way that explains why it's so randomly stupid and sans typical immunities.

[Phelix-Mu]

Some of the drakes from Draconomicon were also more tempered in stats. Most true dragons see inflation of all stats except Dex as they increase in age categories, the main reason why elder dragons are extremely fearsome (unless the DM leaves their touch AC at piss-poor).

Finally, zombie dragon or skeleton dragon are dumb. The um, more pertinant, I think there are some templates out there that might serve you well. As DM, bend entry requirments to suit this critter. I think Savage Species, perhaps? Feral template? Not sure that last one is in Savage Species.

[hamishspence]

Drakkensteeds (Dragon Magic) are pretty close- Int 2, not dragons but animals with the dragonblood subtype (which allows them to be affected by things like spells, effects, powers, that specifically target dragons.)

They're a mix of dragon and horse.



I think Savage Species, perhaps? Feral template? Not sure that last one is in Savage Species.
It is, but only applies to humanoids & monstrous humanoids.

Maybe Half dragon roc might work? would have bat wings instead of feathers, and be Int 4.

[Uncle Pine]

Dragons not immune to sleep and paralysis do not exist.
From the SRD:

Traits
A dragon possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in the description of a particular kind).

Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
Proficient with its natural weapons only unless humanoid in form (or capable of assuming humanoid form), in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with no armor.
Dragons eat, sleep, and breathe.

However, that's not true for dumb dragons. The easiest way to create a dragon with a really low Int I can think of is the Feral Dragon template from Advanced Bestiary (Int -15, minimum 1). It's a really nice book by Matthew Sernett and I think that you should be able to find a comprehensive (and legal) preview on the internet.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you are homebrewing this already, why not give it Int 2 (Animal-lke) and call it a day?

[Edenbeast]

You could use the salt drake:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/drakes/drake-salt-tohc

Or the fire drake (looks like a red dragon, so resembles more the image you provided):
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/drakes/drake-fire-tohc

They both have Int 4.

Edit: however, they do speak draconic.

You can also pick one dragon or wyvern and just give it Int 2.

[Answerer]

Considering what you're hoping for from this creature, I'd probably favor Magical Beast (Dragonblooded) over Dragon.

[Phelix-Mu]

Feeblemind a normal dragon? That would end up being very stupid.

[Larkas]

Try Wurms? I seem to recall they are lower on the intelligence scale. Sure, they don't usually have wings, limbs, or breathe fire. But otherwise are fairly "Draconian" in look. It might be a base that you can apply a few templates and/or mutations to, to end up with what you want in a weird backwards way that explains why it's so randomly stupid and sans typical immunities.

Hmmmm, I don't think I remember where to find those monsters! The closest I could find were Draconomicon's Landwyrms, and those are, unfortunately, fairly intelligent (Int 9+) :smallfrown:


Some of the drakes from Draconomicon were also more tempered in stats. Most true dragons see inflation of all stats except Dex as they increase in age categories, the main reason why elder dragons are extremely fearsome (unless the DM leaves their touch AC at piss-poor).

Hmmm, indeed. But even the Elemental Drakes see Int 6+! :smalleek:


Finally, zombie dragon or skeleton dragon are dumb. The um, more pertinant, I think there are some templates out there that might serve you well. As DM, bend entry requirments to suit this critter. I think Savage Species, perhaps? Feral template? Not sure that last one is in Savage Species.

They are actually mindless, so they don't really count :smallbiggrin: But great call on the templates! Feral isn't compatible, but I remember seeing a feral-like template on a 3rd party book a loooong time ago, made specifically for dragons. I'll see if I can dig it up!


Drakkensteeds (Dragon Magic) are pretty close- Int 2, not dragons but animals with the dragonblood subtype (which allows them to be affected by things like spells, effects, powers, that specifically target dragons.)

They're a mix of dragon and horse.



It is, but only applies to humanoids & monstrous humanoids.

Maybe Half dragon roc might work? would have bat wings instead of feathers, and be Int 4.

Half-dragon roc?!? That is... Strangely appropriate, if way too big :smalleek: Let's see how this turns out.


Dragons not immune to sleep and paralysis do not exist.
From the SRD:


However, that's not true for dumb dragons. The easiest way to create a dragon with a really low Int I can think of is the Feral Dragon template from Advanced Bestiary (Int -15, minimum 1). It's a really nice book by Matthew Sernett and I think that you should be able to find a comprehensive (and legal) preview on the internet.

Actually, they might exist if called out as such:


(unless otherwise noted in the description of a particular kind)

Now, that Feral Dragon template really interests me. Let me see if I can find it!


If you are homebrewing this already, why not give it Int 2 (Animal-lke) and call it a day?

Of course I can do that. It's not a bad idea, really. I just want to know if there's a precedent for that!


You could use the salt drake:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/drakes/drake-salt-tohc

Or the fire drake (looks like a red dragon, so resembles more the image you provided):
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/drakes/drake-fire-tohc

They both have Int 4.

Edit: however, they do speak draconic.

You can also pick one dragon or wyvern and just give it Int 2.

Totally forgot to check Pathfinder material! I'll be sure to check if an oversized fire drake would fit the bill :smallsmile:


Considering what you're hoping for from this creature, I'd probably favor Magical Beast (Dragonblooded) over Dragon.

This is EXACTLY what I was wondering. Seems appropriate enough. I'll think about that for a while to see if it's the way I really should go.


Feeblemind a normal dragon? That would end up being very stupid.

Poor thing, that would be going too far! :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

Half-dragon roc?!? That is... Strangely appropriate, if way too big :smalleek: Let's see how this turns out.

Half-dragon Dire Eagle (Races of Stone) would be a good Large beastie.

[DonDuckie]

Linnorms are quite tough, yet not too bright... maybe one of those on valium - lots of valium.

[hamishspence]

Even the stupidest linnorm (the grey) in MM2 is Int 14.

If you take the view that D&D dragons and D&D dinosaurians are related, Quetzalcoatlus could be a dragon ancestor- it's Huge, reptilian, looks a lot like a tailless wyvern.

[ArcturusV]

Eh. I was probably thinking of earlier edition stuff Larkas. The Landbound Wyrm sounds like it was the same thing but updated and made intelligent. Always the problem with having a feeble old mind and having played for a really long time, sometimes systems and answers get crossed.

[hamishspence]

Dragon Magazine 296 had Wurms (Mountain Wurm, River Wurm, Sand Wurm, Sea Wurm, Storm Wurm, Swamp Wurm, Tundra Wurm) which aren't the same as Draconomicon's Landwyrms.

Unfortunately I don't have that issue so can't say what Int they are.

[DonDuckie]

Even the stupidest linnorm (the grey) in MM2 is Int 14.

If you take the view that D&D dragons and D&D dinosaurians are related, Quetzalcoatlus could be a dragon ancestor- it's Huge, reptilian, looks a lot like a tailless wyvern.

partially my bad:smallsmile:
I was thinking pathfinder, the three linnorms in Bestiary are Int 5, 5, and 7.

[hamishspence]

Good point- haven't got Pathfinder so didn't know about those changes.

[Larkas]

Thanks for all the great ideas, guys! I have a lot to chew on for now. :smallsmile:

For the record, Dragon Magazine's wurms are also very intelligent... PF's linnorms are the best in this respect.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Since you're homebrewing the monster, can't just just arbitrarily set its Int to whatever you want?

[Yogibear41]

White Dragons are the dumbest dragons that I know of INT ranging from 6-18 as they increase in age catergories but even then thats not really dumb.

Out of curiosity why do you need a dumb dragon?

[ngilop]

did 3rd ed get rid fo drakes?


in 2nd drakes were basically dragons that were animal intelligence, had a weak breath weapon, no magical abilities and no age categories.

I think he wants a dumb 'dragon like beast' for the sole reason of hey this is a dragon, but not a real dragon its really tough and scary, but not as dangerous as a rela ctual dragon.

[Randomguy]

The glacierdrak (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20040109a) has 4 int, but it's got CR 28, is ice based and can't fly.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I find that monster hilarious because it can be taken out pretty easily well before epic levels with a Ray of Stupidity and some buffs to get through SR.

[andromax]

hatchlings Wurmlings can be outwitted by most barbarians. :smallbiggrin:

[Ravenica]

Any dragon that doesn't flee when murderhobos show up for dinner doesn't seem all that bright to me

[ericgrau]

Half-dragon dinosaur?

[TroubleBrewing]

Abyssal Drakes have 6 Int, which puts it right at Ogre-intelligence, or "stupid". They're also Huge-sized and CR 9, which means it's actually bigger than most Dragons of equivalent CR.

[Rubik]

Remember, any beastie marked in the books is "average," meaning that it rolled a 10 or 11 on any given stat unless it states otherwise in the entry (generally for those creatures who advance via class levels). If your particular dragon rolled particularly low, it could have a 2-3 for Int, depending on which one you chose.

And remember, you aren't limited to having a minimum Int of 3 for non-PCs. That stricture is in place because the designers had this strange assumption that you can't really have a playable character without human-level intelligence.

[Valdis]

Finally, zombie dragon or skeleton dragon are dumb. The um, more pertinant, I think there are some templates out there that might serve you well.

I would suggest this also. Zombie and Skeletal dragons are very dumb, Int 0. (Draconomicon 192 and 197 have the templates) But then you would have to deal with the cleric who raised it in the first place, I'm sure he wouldn't be very happy that you attacked his mount. :smallsmile:

[Firest Kathon]

Good point- haven't got Pathfinder so didn't know about those changes.
No need to get it, it's all online (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/linnorm).

[Larkas]

Since you're homebrewing the monster, can't just just arbitrarily set its Int to whatever you want?

Of course I can. I'm just trying to gauge if there are any dumb dragons at all, to see if Int>5 is a "hidden trait" of sorts. :smallwink:


White Dragons are the dumbest dragons that I know of INT ranging from 6-18 as they increase in age catergories but even then thats not really dumb.

Out of curiosity why do you need a dumb dragon?

Mainly, it's not that I need a dumb dragon, it's that the base material is a dumb dragon. :smallbiggrin: I'm trying to write the creature in D&D terms so it can be fought in the game. More specifically, however, I'm doing this mainly for low-magic/E6 games. My target is CR 12, so it should be a great challenge for stronger 6th-level E6 parties.


did 3rd ed get rid fo drakes?


in 2nd drakes were basically dragons that were animal intelligence, had a weak breath weapon, no magical abilities and no age categories.

I think he wants a dumb 'dragon like beast' for the sole reason of hey this is a dragon, but not a real dragon its really tough and scary, but not as dangerous as a rela ctual dragon.

It didn't, but 3E's drakes are not dumb at all, clocking at 6 Int at least. Well, dumber than a human, but certainly not animal intelligence-like.

And you pretty much hit the nail in the head regarding my intentions! :smallsmile:


The glacierdrak (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20040109a) has 4 int, but it's got CR 28, is ice based and can't fly.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I find that monster hilarious because it can be taken out pretty easily well before epic levels with a Ray of Stupidity and some buffs to get through SR.

Aaaaand you just made my day with the Glacierdark! :smallbiggrin: I just wanted to know if there were precedents for stupid dragons, and you just proved there are!

And regarding Ray of Stupidity, that is precisely why I was thinking of making the monster immune to mind ability damage, or at least saying it can't be dropped below 1. It won't have SR, after all.


hatchlings Wurmlings can be outwitted by most barbarians. :smallbiggrin:

Indeed! But considering that, say, orc barbarians should have an average of 8 Int and shouldn't dump Int any more, that is not saying much. :smallbiggrin:


Any dragon that doesn't flee when murderhobos show up for dinner doesn't seem all that bright to me

Hahahaha, point taken :smallbiggrin:


Half-dragon dinosaur?

Hmmmm, that works too. Not much different from a half-red dragon tyranossaurus.


Abyssal Drakes have 6 Int, which puts it right at Ogre-intelligence, or "stupid". They're also Huge-sized and CR 9, which means it's actually bigger than most Dragons of equivalent CR.

Unfortunately, they have Int 6 and are Outsiders! But otherwise, the size is spot on, as is the body type. It's good to have something to compare against!


Remember, any beastie marked in the books is "average," meaning that it rolled a 10 or 11 on any given stat unless it states otherwise in the entry (generally for those creatures who advance via class levels). If your particular dragon rolled particularly low, it could have a 2-3 for Int, depending on which one you chose.

And remember, you aren't limited to having a minimum Int of 3 for non-PCs. That stricture is in place because the designers had this strange assumption that you can't really have a playable character without human-level intelligence.

Hmmmm, I was disregarding that, but it's true. I was aiming at Int-3-and-no-speech (like the Tarrasque), so no problems there, but that way I could go even lower based on very low int dragons. Thanks for the pointers!


I would suggest this also. Zombie and Skeletal dragons are very dumb, Int 0. (Draconomicon 192 and 197 have the templates) But then you would have to deal with the cleric who raised it in the first place, I'm sure he wouldn't be very happy that you attacked his mount. :smallsmile:

Hahahahaha, indeed, but again, they are Undead, not really fitting. :smallbiggrin:


No need to get it, it's all online (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/linnorm).

It's a pity it doesn't have pictures, though. :smallfrown:

[Larkas]

Okay, it is done (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269941). Tell me what you think!