MMOs have corrupted me, I think.

[tadkins]

In EQ, a halfling warrior could tank an enemy just as well as an ogre warrior could.

In WoW, a gnome fury warrior deals the same kind of damage as an orc warrior.

I've always been a fan of playing short race characters. When I got into D&D and started reading into it though, it seems like the shorties are relegated to spellcasting or stealth/skillmonkey roles. None of the guides, handbooks or even WotC published material seems to recognize the little ones as a martially-capable race.

Perhaps I'm just being silly, but is there anything wrong with making a melee-based cleric out of a gnome? A goblin knight or a halfling barbarian?

Even better, how about a pixie warblade? :)

I doubt a slightly lower strength is *that* big a deal, right?

[Ravenica]

the real disadvantage usually comes down to combat maneuvers (at least in PF)
the small size means they can't affect anything larger than an orc without magical assisstance.

[ArcturusV]

There's nothing wrong with it. I mean even in the original DnD halflings were, defaulted, to the Fighter role. They couldn't BE anything else. So there is some history to back you up.

Honestly a lot of the short races don't really make HORRIBLE fighters or the like. They won't be able to Greatsword bash like a Half-Orc Barbarian of course. But they usually get Dex based buffs and some interesting dodge bonuses and other bonuses that make them perfect for stuff like the Thug Fighter Variant from Unearthed Arcana.

[Baroncognito]

It really depends on how well optimized the party is. I've been playing a Halfling Ranger who is the main tank since the fighter and the cleric quit, and I've been doing alright.

Timmy was a Gnomish Paladin and he absolutely reveled in his job.

[PersonMan]

It depends. If you have a huge Strength hit, you'll often want to get some source of [X] to damage, where [X] is a stat you have a bonus to.

A hit to Con is a bit harder to deal with, as there are, I think, 2-4 ways (at most) to get [other stat] to function as Con for the purposes of HP. But as any mid/high op player can tell you, layered defenses (miss chance being one of the key ones here) are better than and can compensate for a low HP pool.

As such, a Small melee character is fine, but be ready to take some hits to stats you want or use other ones in the place of Strength or Constitution.

[Kane0]

Well, it depends on the amount of optimisation you're dealing with, but on the whole you can be a halfling fighter or a gnome ranger just fine. You generally operate slightly behind the half-orc and human warriors, or find another way to make up for that tiny defecit.

I've found halfling warblades particularly fun myself.

[Chilingsworth]

Well, it would make a difference at lower levels, when it's not just a matter of the strength penalty, but also of a lower weapon damage die.

At higher levels, the difference is much less important. At a certain point, damage comes from added bonuses (power attack, for instance) rendering the base damage almost moot.

Small races could also make decent martial adepts. One other issue is the speed penalty, but that can be overcome with magic items.

[tadkins]

Are there actual ways to compensate for a lesser strength? I figure there might be one of those "dex counts as strength" feats out there.

I know that typically flavor-wise, a smaller fighter will find ways to overcome larger opponents. A quick-thinking halfling could adjust their stance to just the right trajectory to make a hit to them seem ineffective, while a half-orc would mostly just take it on the face.

Of course there's also the smaller size that makes them harder to hit too.

Heck, Gnomes have a +2 to Con as well, don't they? They're hardy fellows.

[TaiLiu]

Are there actual ways to compensate for a lesser strength? I figure there might be one of those "dex counts as strength" feats out there.

Weapon Finesse allows one to use one's Dexterity modifier instead of one's Strength modifier on attack rolls.

Shadow Blade allows one to add one's Dexterity modifier as a bonus on melee damage for attacks made while in a Shadow Hand stance.

[Eldariel]

Are there actual ways to compensate for a lesser strength? I figure there might be one of those "dex counts as strength" feats out there.

I know that typically flavor-wise, a smaller fighter will find ways to overcome larger opponents. A quick-thinking halfling could adjust their stance to just the right trajectory to make a hit to them seem ineffective, while a half-orc would mostly just take it on the face.

Of course there's also the smaller size that makes them harder to hit too.

Heck, Gnomes have a +2 to Con as well, don't they? They're hardy fellows.

X stat to Y Bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) might interest you; it lists all the major ways to derive anything off any other stat, along with the source where the option originates from.

But yeah, as said above, with two feats you can get damage and to hit from Dexterity so that's a good start.

[Gotterdammerung]

I too share a love of the little people. But while tiny in stature do have some mechanical disadvantages in the area of melee, they still have a lot of potential for circumventing those disadvantages.

One of the strongest chargers I have ever played was a hafling outrider, for instance. His size didn't really come into play. Sure he had a smaller weapon dice, but small dice + a bazillion is negligible.

One of my strongest animal companions was a small cerval reduced to tiny size with reduce animal, buffed to the nines, stacked heavy with little people fighting feats, and a maximized fell the greatest foe thrown on him for good measure. That tiny little cat outperformed almost every melee I have ever seen.

I have also seen swarmfighting builds that were viable.

So don't get down too hard on the cute little melee warriors of D&D. They can be powerful too.

[tadkins]

X stat to Y Bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) might interest you; it lists all the major ways to derive anything off any other stat, along with the source where the option originates from.

But yeah, as said above, with two feats you can get damage and to hit from Dexterity so that's a good start.

Ooh yeah, awesome link! Thanks.

I do picture a smaller warrior fighting with more of an emphasis on speed and mental quickness, so this helps.

[Greenish]

Small races could also make decent martial adepts.This. The maneuvers are easily enough to compensate for lower weapon damage and lower Str potential at lower levels, and on higher ones the difference is minor.

I've done a (whisper) gnome barbarian/swordsage and a goblin warblade. The latter wasn't very high OP, but both did their job.


A quick-thinking halfling could adjust their stance to just the right trajectory to make a hit to them seem ineffective, while a half-orc would mostly just take it on the face.There's a counter or two for that in ToB. One of them even gets a bonus for being smaller than the enemy.

RoW has the Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk feats, which are also handy at representing such a fighting style. The Other Killer Gnome (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872846/I_May_Be_Tiny,_But_Youre_Dead:_the_other,_melee_Ki ller_Gnome,_for_your_pleasure.) uses them to great advantage. (If you were wondering, it's called "the other" because the original killer gnome uses shadow magic.)

[tadkins]

Just as long as my future whisper gnome crusader/cleric/bone knight (or something similar) isn't totally gimped when I finally get to play it in a game. That's all I care about. :)

[Eldan]

Level one, you are looking at maybe -2 damage. Not that bad, really, your size bonus usually makes up on the to-hit score. And at higher levels? There's little difference between 1d6+5+10d6+30 and 1d8+7+10d6+30 or something.

[mistformsquirrl]

Yeah, as others have said, the hit is honestly quite small in most circumstances. This goes double if you're playing a Martial Adept, where a LOT of your power is coming from maneuvers, and very little from your own stats.

There are, as I recall, some feats specifically to make Small characters more powerful against Medium and Large enemies too I think. I can't remember them off the top of my head, but I'll try to look them up real quick, see what I can see.

[Pechvarry]

There are quite a few builds around that make use of small-size in melee. Tons of feats exist to this end (Confound the Big Folk, Underfoot Combat, etc etc). I'm sure at least 1 of them is good. Also substitution levels and prestige classes (such as Blade Bravo, which is hella cool, if nothing else). I've never actually seen the Killer Gnome build, but I'm sure it's a gnome that kills.

Also, Small-sized Knights work well, as their riding dogs can squeeze anywhere an orc could, giving you mounted attacks and good movement speed. And then there's the D&D kiting: taunt everything and run in circles untouched while your party does the killin'.

[Killer Angel]

Also, Small-sized Knights work well, as their riding dogs can squeeze anywhere an orc could, giving you mounted attacks and good movement speed.

And with a mounted charger, the penalties (strength and weapon damage die) don't matter too much, 'cause your dam output will be based on multipliers.

[javijuji]

You might wanna take a look at Gnome Giant Killer.

[Story]

If you're a Gnome and want to do extra damage, there's always the Gnomish Quickrazor/Iajitsu Focus route.

[The Glyphstone]

You might wanna take a look at Gnome Giant Killer.

And to scale up the op level, the full-on Killer Gnome build.

[Amphetryon]

Look into Wild Dwarves, from Races of Faerun. They're a Small Race with no STR penalty.

[Edenbeast]

I have played a halfling paladin doing mounted combat, and a weird gnome who was a cleric of Olidammara. Both were fun in combat. Optimizers will argue that you take a hit in your main stat, but what is the difference effectively? A -2 in strength translates to -1 to hit, given that you are small and therefore have +1 to hit, they even out. So you have the same chance to hit, but 1 less to damage rolls compared to a similar build without the -2 Str. You have -1 in combat maneuvers due to being small, which doesn't convince me to not playing a small character. A halfling on a pony or riding dog can usually go anywhere compared to a human who has to leave his warhorse outside the dungeon. I like the image of the small guy teaching the big guy a lesson.

[Greenish]

Look into Wild Dwarves, from Races of Faerun. They're a Small Race with no STR penalty.Also worth mentioning are Poison Dusk Lizardfolk from MMIII. They're +1 LA, but might be worth it, especially with buy off.


You have -1 in combat maneuvers due to being small, which doesn't convince me to not playing a small character.Well, in 3.5 it's -4 for each size category you're smaller than the opponent.

That said, even strength-focused medium-sized creatures are liable to lose grappling and the like against the bigger monsters, unless they're specifically focused on it.


Also, I see quite a few optimizers in this thread who are not arguing against the idea. :smallamused:

[Fouredged Sword]

A halfling fighter with power attack looses next to nothing in melee. You have -2 strength and +2 dex. You also have a +1 to attack and defense. You are likely going to wield a two handed weapon.

Now this makes a -1.5 to damage due to lower strength and -1 from lower strength, attack rolls are even due to a -1+1, and your defense goes up 2 points.

So you are trading 2.5 damage a hit for +2 ac. This can hurt at lower levels, but help in mid levels when +2 ac is a bigger deal than 2.5 damage.

Add weapon finesse and a court blade and suddenly the math changes. Yes, you are three feats into the build (powerattack, weapon finesse, and EWP), but now you have -3.5 damage, but +2 to hit and +2 AC. Trade the to hit for damage with power attack and you are looking at +.5 damage and +2 AC.

I would do something like whirlpounce barbarian 1 / rogue 2 / fighter 2 / swashbuckler 3 / Factotum 3 / something x to finish (swordsage if you can for shadow blade)

Now you are dex/int/con/strength/wis/cha, and add strength, int and dex to damage with your main attack, get 2x power attack and dex to attack rolls.

Extra rage gets you three whirls, so those give you +4 strength AND dex, so that adds +4 damage and +2 to hit for you.

[Gotterdammerung]

Also, I see quite a few optimizers in this thread who are not arguing against the idea. :smallamused:

Why would we argue, tiny things rock.

And speaking of Tiny things, Jermlaine is another fun little race. It is always wonderful when you can make a powerful Jermlaine, because they seam so unthreatening at first glance. But boy can they end up deadly.

If you like robbing material from pathfinder the reduce monster spell makes you a diminutive character xD.

Compression psychic warrior power will make a jermlaine achieve the coveted Fine size!

[Greenish]

Extra rage gets you three whirls, so those give you +4 strength AND dex, so that adds +4 damage and +2 to hit for you.Whirling Frenzy doesn't boost Dex, so using it actually nets you -2 to hit (if you go for the extra attack). For Str-based characters, it'd cancel out with the Str boost, but no such luck for you.

It's still probably worth it, though, for the extra attack, a bit of damage, and improved AC/saves.

[Story]

So you are trading 2.5 damage a hit for +2 ac. This can hurt at lower levels, but help in mid levels when +2 ac is a bigger deal than 2.5 damage.


Are you sure you don't have that backwards?

[Oscredwin]

On a two hander build in 3.X you lose anywhere from 2-6 strength (taking a +1 LA race like Goliath is common for such builds) for 2-4 to Dex. A SH halfling with EWP courtblade/spiked chain and WF is down a feat from a Goliath with even to hit (from racials).

I'm not against them, I'm just saying you should be comparing the numbers to a specific race. Halflings beat humans on beatstick builds that don't involve tripping, but they should be compared to half-orcs/orcs/water orcs/Goliaths/half-giants, the usual races for those builds.

[Fouredged Sword]

Goliath are +1 LA though, and some races are just more OP then others. I was comparing a strongheart halfling to a human as the closest small/medium comparison I could make.

If you want to go into specific race combos we should compare a vulnerable dragonwraught kolbold vs a dragonborn artic water orc.

[Greenish]

If you want to go into specific race combos we should compare a vulnerable dragonwraught kolbold vs a dragonborn artic water orc.You mean Great Wyrm Dragonwrought Desert Kobold. Which, without further cheese, just about break even with Whisper Gnomes for non-casters.


Anyway, even small creatures with Str penalty are not forced to got for Dex-based combat, so the point about losing feats to a goliath is moot. As for the stats, well, as pointed out, goliaths are +1 LA, which means we could slap our small creature a template, such as Lolth-touched, Feral, or Mineral Warrior. I had a feral whisper gnome once, and he left little to be desired.

And of course it's just silly to pretend that a great number of warrior-types at all levels of optimization aren't human.


[Edit]: Pictured – Feral Whisper Gnome: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UvNmjhRKkZ4/Snh3hlPZSVI/AAAAAAAAAWI/dI_sAkkDiDc/s400/Ulvur.jpgSource. (http://mejostrip.blogspot.fi/2009_08_01_archive.html)

[Oscredwin]

[Edit]: Pictured – Feral Whisper Gnome: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UvNmjhRKkZ4/Snh3hlPZSVI/AAAAAAAAAWI/dI_sAkkDiDc/s400/Ulvur.jpgSource. (http://mejostrip.blogspot.fi/2009_08_01_archive.html)

That is Badass

[Con_Brio1993]

I have a crazy idea. Play a short, but use the racial features of another race :o

[Talya]

If you want to go into specific race combos we should compare a vulnerable dragonwraught kolbold vs a dragonborn artic water orc.



I much prefer Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds. Vulnerable ones are just too squishy for my tastes.

[Greenish]

I much prefer Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds. Vulnerable ones are just too squishy for my tastes.Kobolds use dragon age categories, because why be "venerable" when you could be "Great Wyrm". :smallcool:

[Dusk Eclipse]

I find hilarious that even hatchlings dragonwrought kobolds can enter prestige classes at level 2 (as long as they require dragon-blood though)

[Drascin]

Setting Sun-focused Sworsage halflings are fun if you want to have a martially-inclined halfling. They get a bonus to damage against anything bigger than they are, which is pretty much everything, and they can use their dex to grapple dudes thrice their size and toss them at other dudes.