Optimizing a Red Dragon (Monster Class)

[Hidden_Blade11]

Hi GitP!

So a player in my upcoming campaign has been wanting to play as a true dragon for as long as he has been playing D&D, but never got the chance to. Well, after a long absence I am playing 3.5 and DMing again, and I wanted to allow him to play an Evil PC Red Dragon in my campaign, using the Dragon 332 (I think?) rules for the Chromatic Dragon monster class / race.

My only worry is that he may be weak in our usually rather highly optimized gaming group, as the monster class, although having some cool aspects, doesn't seem especially powerful: The BAB only reaches around 14, he doesn't get a Hit Die at every level, and although he gets lots of flat ability bonuses, I'm afraid that he will have few actual battle and roleplay options available barring a breath weapon and blindsense.

Sorry for this big block of text, and onto my favor to ask the community:

Could you help me with any suggestions to increase the power, and more importantly the playablilty, fun and options available, of the Red Dragon class, either via Feats or Prcs ect or any other suggestions.

Thanks for any help!

-Mark

[Magesmiley]

While I haven't had someone run a red, I've had a silver in a prior game and another silver in my current game.

First big question: what level are you playing?

The biggest drawback I can see to playing a red is when it comes to towns and NPCs. Typically dragons aren't terribly welcome there. Any activities in towns will probably be extremely hard to work the red dragon into. The alternate form ability of the silver and gold make them much better choices if there is going to be much activity inside the bounds of civilization.

The next drawback is definitely equipment. How does the dragon carry it, if any? The dragon is going to find very little that is sized right for him/her, so most equipment is going to have to be custom made.

A third problem is that a number of spells only affect humanoids. No enlarge person for the dragon. The flip side of this is that the dragon is also immune to hostile spells that only affect humanoids.

Don't underestimate the ability to fly at will. Once gained, it is a huge benefit. Along that line, I'd heavily suggest the Hover feat. Useful for many reasons and it also greatly simplifies the character's airborn maneuvering.

Pick up a copy of the Draconomicon if you haven't already. Lots of dragon-specific feats and items in that book. Savage Species might be helpful too.

One thing that I have observed is that buffs seem to be more effective when applied to a dragon than to most PCs. There are quite a few that stack with the dragon's natural abilities. Either talk to the party's wizard/sorcerer or consider dipping into sorcerer along the way. Adding shield, mage armor, and cat's grace can do some rather horrendous things to a dragon's AC. In a similar vein, consider putting together custom versions of spells with the dragon in mind. An enlarge dragon spell might be particularly potent.

[Hidden_Blade11]

Sorry I missed some information that would be helpful: My campaign is going to be in an Evil Underdark setting, so acceptance into society will not be much of an issue. Players will be starting around somewhere between lvl 5 and 7, but I haven't finalised that yet.

Also I'm not sure about multiclassing into a base/ core spellcasting class because the player will be set very far behind in terms of actual spellcasting as he must wait until level 11 before multiclassing, and the HP per level will be poor and I'm guessing he will be largely melee based, so perhaps Prestige Classes will be the way to go?

I'm thinking metabreath feats will be a cool way to bring some control and variation to the PC's breath attack, but I was wondering if there were any other cool things beside the already mentioned Hover feat, which he will certainly be taking, preferably something that helps his melee prowess.

Also I am now looking for some magical equipment that could be useful for a dragon, or that is custom made for a dragon, to be placed into my loot lists ect. I don't want him to lose out on the magical item side of things, especially when he is a greedy Red Dragon!

[Magesmiley]

Other question: what is the makeup of the rest of the party? I only threw out the sorcerer notion as there are some level 1 spells (mage armor, shield, true strike) that can seriously boost a dragon, even at higher levels. An 8 point AC jump for 2 1st-level spells when you already have a decent AC and are built for melee is pretty potent. If he's got a friendly caster willing to give him a boost, just focus on the dragon levels.

Sounds like he's going to be starting in at the levels where the LA in the progression hurts the most. If he can make it through to wyrmling, things get a bit better, as the payoffs get more frequent.

As far as magic items, the Draconomicon had a list of what was and wasn't usable for item slots. There are a number of standard items that dragons can use as is. Items that provide boosts for STR, DEX, and CON in particular help as they enhance stats already boosted from racial abilities even higher. Make sure he finds things to stack with his high natural armor bonus. Look around for items that are useful to enhance monk attacks - they typically also work for natural attacks.

Multiattack and Improved Natural Attack are obvious choices. I recall there being another feat that can give extra attacks with natural weapons, but the name is escaping me right now.

Metabreaths are often quite nasty. Clinging, maximize, etc. If the dragon is willing to only use the breath only once a combat, he can put out a fairly staggering first strike by stacking several together.

[Hidden_Blade11]

Yeah we have a Wizard, Cleric, and a some kind of steath class/ Skill monkey/ Assassin-ish guy.

That really leaves the Red Dragon in the position of the bulky damager who stands and fights the enemy next to the Cleric (Who will be nasty strong, I'm sure), and also as aerial support when possible. Obviously metabreath will give him some really nice battlefield control and horde damage, while hopefully his other feats and a PRC help towards causing maximum damage.

Question: What does he do about DR with his natural attacks? Do True Dragons have a way of bypassing it with their natural attacks?

[Urpriest]

Since you're the DM, consider letting him play one of the homebrew monster classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142724). They're designed to give the feel of playing a monster while still sticking to the standard HD at every level scheme.

[Magesmiley]

Yeah we have a Wizard, Cleric, and a some kind of steath class/ Skill monkey/ Assassin-ish guy.

That really leaves the Red Dragon in the position of the bulky damager who stands and fights the enemy next to the Cleric (Who will be nasty strong, I'm sure), and also as aerial support when possible. Obviously metabreath will give him some really nice battlefield control and horde damage, while hopefully his other feats and a PRC help towards causing maximum damage.

Question: What does he do about DR with his natural attacks? Do True Dragons have a way of bypassing it with their natural attacks?

DR for magic shouldn't be too hard to overcome. There's plenty of magic enhancements floating around for natural attacks. Other materials may be a bit problematic. Best plan is probably either power attack or breathing. There is a feat in Draconomicon that lets you ignore five points of DR, if I recall. (It is actually intended to help PCs against dragons, but it might help in this case too.)

[Hidden_Blade11]

Thanks Magesmiley for all your help, you are a champ ^^

And Urpriest, Holy Hell! That page is pure gold! I may very well be using those classes a lot, absolutely awesome!