When Brute Force Isn't Enough...Stack Templates?

[Palanan]

This is a DM-only thread, my players punch out.



I've had some excellent input on designing an encounter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269816) for this Saturday's session, but there's one thing I'm still trying to work out, and that's how to make it a challenge beyond a simple fight.

The party is fifth level, abundantly martial, with virtually no combat magic, and the barbarian/warblade tends to make quick work of things; it's a real struggle to keep combats relevant and interesting. It also means there's less opportunity for anyone else to contribute.

What I would like is to add some other dimension to the encounter at hand, something that involves creative thinking in character. So far the encounter involves a telthor defending a bridge crossing onto the terrain where it died. I like the concept, but it's mechanically basic, and I'd like to add something deeper, something to involve a clever character who doesn't have a greatsword. How could I build on this?
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[Lortharian Duin]

Have you thought about using Joker Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5496158#post5496158)?

[Palanan]

Well, what I'm really looking for are two things:


1. An encounter that can't just be solved with several swings of a +1 greatsword, but which requires creative thinking and good roleplaying to completely overcome.

2. Beyond that, I'd like to bring in some deeper aspect of the situation for the characters to respond to, something involving the terrain and its tragic history.

The second item will probably require some story integration on my part...but the first is hopefully more straightforward. How can the characters think their way past the encounter, rather than just chopping through?

I'm looking for something that would be challenging and unexpected, that still poses a physical threat but which can be overcome more intelligently by some other means. What could I try here?

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[TaiLiu]

Well, what I'm really looking for are two things:

[INDENT]1. An encounter that can't just be solved with several swings of a +1 greatsword, but which requires creative thinking and good roleplaying to completely overcome.



Creatures of the Swarm subtype should help. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#swarmSubtype)

[Squirrel_Dude]

Creatures of the Swarm subtype should help. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#swarmSubtype)If they're party doesn't have any strong combat magic, a swarm isn't just powerful, its a possible TPK.

Do it.

[Averis Vol]

This may seem a little "mean" but you could do some things that would, later on, come to bite them in the ass the more they just decide to meaninglessly kill. Theres something called a dream vestige in Libris Mortis that is, in effect, a mass of souls that are fueled by hate and anger. Now at base it is a CR 16, so a lot of tweaking would need to be done if they choose to fight this thing, but just start it out as a single, angry and anguished soul, and the more they kill the defenders of the island, the stronger this soul becomes and the less rational it gets until it becomes a mini dream vestige ball of anger and pain.

So basically the encounter would play out in three ways:

1) they could not attack the Telthors that walk the island, instead trying to come to a peaceful solution, maybe solve some mysteries in the area, then once they reach the top speak to the reasonable if some what angry spirit up top and come to some sort of agreement that gets them both something they want.

2)Your melee monsters goes around beating on the Telthor, and each time they kill one, there is an audible moan that shakes the island, and they can see a bluish wisp head straight towards the top of the volcano, each one they kill strengthens the monster, maybe giving it a 1/2-1 cr boost per person, adjust based on how many enemys there are on the island, capping at say, CR8; making them reap the seeds of their pointless slaughter. So after all that combat, the traps in the area, and any other things you decide to throw in, THEN they have to pay for it by getting smacked around by the very spirits they relieved the world of.

3) they repeat number 1, but decide to kill the spirit at the top; successfully circumventing the challenge of the encounter.

of course number 3 is very undesirable, but there is a chance that it will happen.

hope this helps somehow.

[ArcturusV]

You know... when I generally think of "Thinking my way past an encounter" instead of just bashing it into submission, the first thing that pops into mind is Illusionist. Because then you're Forced to. Least back in the old day when Specialist Wizard meant nearly all your spells had to be from the specialty in question.

Which leads me to believe that, if you're willing to put in some extra work, that could be the answer to the situation, more or less. As they kill these little animal spirits their energy disperses from Form to Illusion. They create a twisting of the area they died in. Each one killed is another layer to the illusion. If your party just Brutes it, you can end up in a case of Save or Die style "Die of Illusionary Fright" like the old Weird spell.

While interesting, I realized this isn't what you're asking for. This is PUNISHMENT, not really Alternate Routing. Though it will serve as a lesson about not just going Barbarian SMAAAAASH! at everything should they survive whatever illusionary hell their carnage wrought.

A better option? Have the monster do something non-combative. Don't frame up the situation in a combat encounter. Maybe have the critter doing something to try and sabotage the bridge as it sees the adventurers crossing. If they get within Charging Range of the critter (Probably 2/3rds of the way across the bridge?), it bolts. It doesn't offer them a fight.

This is repeated in pattern later on. It avoids a direct throwdown with the party, requiring them to think of some way to "Trap" it and force a confrontation if they want to just kill it. Or find some way to appease it if not. Meanwhile it's something that's stalking them, keeping just out of range, hiding, moving around. It might use things like Hallucinatory Terrain to screw with people and harm them, set up traps like Spike Stones or Snares, use Fire Seeds as Mines, etc. Doing as much harm to the party as possible and is fitting without drawing down and saying "Come at me!"

[Alleran]

If brute force isn't enough, then you're not using enough of it. I believe a certain Vaarsuvius has remarked on the strength of a fireball in relationship to the number of social situations it is capable of solving. :smallamused:

Moving on, I'd put some thought into playing with illusions. Set it up (re-firing illusion trap that the telthor deliberately triggers, maybe?) so that the barbarian is fighting shadows, perhaps, and make the party think more tactically about how to get past the illusions.

Of course, you could also use the telthor as a bridge guardian who asks questions about the air speed velocity of unladen swallows, or some other type of riddle that would require the party to stop and think rather than just charge ahead with pointy ends first.

[jaynus006]

When it comes to big encounters I try to think really outside traditional statistics.

The Abbot of the monastery was murdered, by the hands of numerous other monks. Inside his body still rests. I would homebrew up a zombie with some rough abilities but low enough HP it can be brought down quickly. Whenever it dies it raises in a couple rounds. In addition the Abbots soul haunts the monastery as a ghost. The ghost can inhabit items in the monastery and animate them. If the item or ghost is destroyed it respawns as well. This gives your barb something to pound on the entire encounter.

The monks responsible for the murder are also present here. The other characters can begin to interact with their souls.

You can play a few different angles , the abbot could have been evil and your PC's need to help the other ghosts regroup and seal his soul away (allowing his body to be destroyed) or they are being held captive as punishment for their betrayal (if this is the case make the Abbots ghost a social NPC where the party has to convince him to forgive while his invincible zombie body is tearing the place up)

Each soul rescued/destroyed/forgiven could strip the Zombie of a special ability, making it easier to deal. There are a ton of possibilities.

Something alone this line allows you to create a physical threat your martial characters can face, a dangerous monster that needs to be brought down quickly, but also lends the time in between for roleplay and tactics for when the beast returns.

[Slipperychicken]

The ghost on the bridge is stuck in the world, bound to defend it via cruel magic. He wants to go to the afterlife, but each time he's tried to commit suicide, he's respawned at the bridge, even when something tried to kill him. There are a few ways to resolve it. His final order in life may have been to guard the bridge (against whatever killed all the monks, probably), and he needs evidence that his order is no longer valid. Perhaps more interestingly, he might have gone crazy and tragically thinks the battle is still going after all these years, kind of like a guy with acute PTSD. The PCs can only get his soul to rest is with evidence the battle's long over, like the guys skull, finding the ghost's dog tag, or something similar.


Maybe there are a bunch of prayer bells somewhere which can exorcise spirits (requiring a Know: Religion check to activate), but no-one's used them in a very long time. Correct use banishes the ghost.

[Pickford]

I mean...skill challenges? I'd be hard pressed to see a Barbarian complete a diplomacy check, or decipher script or any number of things that could allow the players an easier path. Or you could occasionally split the party with each 'finding' the opportunity to do something that plays to their strengths.

What are all the classes? (Maybe there's a particular class skill that would help)

ex: You come across an unconcious man in the forest, he's bleeding profusely and has an arrow through his leg. What do you do?

[Slipperychicken]

I mean...skill challenges? I'd be hard pressed to see a Barbarian complete a diplomacy check

This is why there's an Intimidate variant rule which allows a character to use his Strength instead of Charisma for it. It just doesn't make any sense for a Barbarian to not be scary.



ex: You come across an unconcious man in the forest, he's bleeding profusely and has an arrow through his leg. What do you do?

Sic the Cleric on him. Or get someone to attempt a Heal check. Or pour a CLW potion into his mouth. If he's an adventurer, persuade the town militia to accept him as a guard. Make Skyrim references.

[Flickerdart]

When brute force isn't enough, use more brute force. Your party's barbarian cuts through every challenge? Throw him a monster he can't kill like that. Anything from things that are obviously bigger and scarier than he is (a dragon larger than the one he remembers nearly killing his master, for instance) to things that don't play fair (succubus or illithid with charmed townsfolk blocking the barbarian's charge) to puzzle monsters (the melee equivalent of a golem or some such) to subterfuge (the monsters are actually illusions or summons and the real attacker is hidden a ways away, so without finding and killing the caster they'll just keep coming).

[Answerer]

Frankly, I find it... questionable to attempt to apply encounters that require out-of-the-box thinking and nullify martial abilities, when all of the players intentionally chose very simple, "I hit it again" characters who excel at martial combat. I mean, are you sure they want to play the game you're envisioning? Cuz it doesn't really sound like they do.

[Bouregard]

This is a DM-only thread, my players punch out.



I've had some excellent input on designing an encounter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269816) for this Saturday's session, but there's one thing I'm still trying to work out, and that's how to make it a challenge beyond a simple fight.

The party is fifth level, abundantly martial, with virtually no combat magic, and the barbarian/warblade tends to make quick work of things; it's a real struggle to keep combats relevant and interesting. It also means there's less opportunity for anyone else to contribute.

What I would like is to add some other dimension to the encounter at hand, something that involves creative thinking in character. So far the encounter involves a telthor defending a bridge crossing onto the terrain where it died. I like the concept, but it's mechanically basic, and I'd like to add something deeper, something to involve a clever character who doesn't have a greatsword. How could I build on this?
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The party seems to like combt, so why change it?

What I always like to play is a village defense against a huge number of weak humanoids like in the 13th warrior.

This adds a tactical layer to the game. Yes the party can play roadblock and wherever they are there is no coming throught for the enemy.
But those guys have brains too.
Why attack the frontgate with a blooddrenched barbarian in front that already murdered close to 200 of my buddies when the other side is only guarded by a few villagers with wooden sticks?

Now the party can split/bundle up/or decide to flee/lead a retreat, use utility spells/skills to reinforce the walls, buff the villagers and many more things.

[Malroth]

a room full of captured children one of which is an Illithid using polymorph

[strider24seven]

At low levels, I am a fan of illusions.
Especially if no one thinks of packing a method of nullifying them.

And if they do they're always Invisible Obscuring Mist.

[Pickford]

This is why there's an Intimidate variant rule which allows a character to use his Strength instead of Charisma for it. It just doesn't make any sense for a Barbarian to not be scary.

Intimidate != Diplomacy. For one thing though it might have a temporary benefit the next time you meet that person they will be unfriendly or worse. (i.e. next time that Barbarian may be facing an extremely angry mob).

[QUOTE]Sic the Cleric on him. Or get someone to attempt a Heal check. Or pour a CLW potion into his mouth. If he's an adventurer, persuade the town militia to accept him as a guard. Make Skyrim references.

Yes, exactly, the point is that perhaps these other characters have skillsets which are different than the Barbarian. Also based on the description of the party composition a cleric seems unlikely. Still, it would give someone else something to do with their abilities.


The party is fifth level, abundantly martial, with virtually no combat magic, and the barbarian/warblade tends to make quick work of things; it's a real struggle to keep combats relevant and interesting. It also means there's less opportunity for anyone else to contribute.

[Palanan]

Well, I appreciate the suggestions so far. The swarm concept does have its possibilities, especially an incorporeal swarm, and Averis Vol's suggestion of adapting a dream vestige also sounds interesting.


Originally Posted by Slipperychicken
The ghost on the bridge is stuck in the world.... His final order in life may have been to guard the bridge...and he needs evidence that his order is no longer valid.

I really like this approach. In fact, I like it so much that I ran an almost identical scenario in one of the earliest sessions of the campaign, using a standard ghost, half-mad, still convinced he had to defend against an invasion from the sea.

So...great concept, exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for. Anything else like this?

:smallamused:

[GilesTheCleric]

Well, if you want a combo of melee/thinking, then what about Ice Assassin (perhaps a modified less-aggressive one) or that mirror that duplicates anything that looks into it? The party should be much more frightened when they see themselves coming after themselves. Throw in just one additional enemy or a terrain/situation that is disadvantageous to the party and they should clearly see that while a potential option, combat is clearly not the best one.

Rough terrain prevents charging. Forcing the party to use move actions every turn (eg. a wall of evilfiredeathwaterghosts that advances every round) prevents full attacks and favours casters. They will be forced to re-arrange the combat to favour themselves, or else look for the source of the duplicates. And there's surely a way to introduce a duplicate party without it being cliched.

Also: Incorporeal/invisible opponents are difficult without magical assistance. Advanced rust monsters. Hydras. Jellies. Plants/objects. Hostage situations.

Another idea I've just had - perhaps the party meets an NPC clearly more powerful than they are (e.g. the bridge guardian), who takes a liking to them/needs them and accompanies/helps them. But, the NPC is cursed/negatively affects the party. They would be forced to get the NPC out of their group in order to be at their peak combat efficiency, but they obviously cannot do so with brute force.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by GilesTheCleric
They would be forced to get the NPC out of their group in order to be at their peak combat efficiency, but they obviously cannot do so with brute force.

Oh, yes they could. :smallamused:


Originally Posted by GilesTheCleric
Also: Incorporeal/invisible opponents are difficult without magical assistance.

The barbarian/warblade has a +1 sword, so a standard incorporeal opponent would just take a few more swings.

However, I really like the idea of an incorporeal swarm, especially something Fine which wouldn't be affected by any number of swings. And since I've already been thinking about telthors, from Unapproachable East...why not an incorporeal fey swarm?

So, without much in the way of spellcasting, what could a clever party do to defeat--or at least survive--an incorporeal fey swarm?

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[J-H]

Split the party. Have 2 (or better, 4!) bridges that are semi-flexible and all tied to a single beam at the far end, and have the beam semi-rotatable around a single point. If they all go on one bridge, it'll tip and dump them into the chasm. They'll have to split up amongst the bridges according to weight & leverage...

[Deaxsa]

1. If a couple swings are all it takes for them to win, you could also make it so that a couple of swings is all it takes for them to lose; in other words, whoever strikes first wins harder.
2. you could make them fight VERY strategy-dependent fights(i'd suggest phase spiders, or a two archer groups are attacking from opposite sides, or they need to defend a bridge that's 40 feet wide-they aren't to let anyone cross)
3. You could make them fight a poison monster, which will weaken them for upcoming fights. (you may want to buff the save DCs on the poisons if they ARE all martial-those fort saves may be a bit high. to be REALLY mean, you could have the poison target one of their dump stats, and they just flop over when they hit 0)
4. You could also make them fight a trap, or a anything they can not directly fight.
5. A final idea is to make your party choose between unlocking a door by casting a level 3 arcane spell or fighting the Ultimate Banjo Colossus: make it clear things are harder(maybe a lot harder) because they simply don't have a caster.

To sum it all up, just make it so that the goal is not bashing enemy heads in. it's staying alive, or destroying the enemy base, or getting to point B, or not getting to 0 in any stat, etc. (I highly suggest phase spiders, because they are ethereal as a free action -- not incorporeal. also, the poison adds a whole new dimension to the danger.)

[ArcturusV]

Well, there's always figuring out range limitations, perhaps some terrain or feature they don't like. Like running away from a bee swarm and diving below water to shuck them off.

Been too long since I've messed with Incorporeal and/or Swarm Enemies, so my Rules Fu is weak. But doesn't Fire effect them (But has something like a 50% miss chance)? So couldn't they also use some torches to help fend them off? Depending of course if "Ball of fire on the end of a stick" applies as a "Weapon" for the swarm rules, or an energy source (Fire).

Of course there is always sensory confusion (Not the spell). Figure out what the swarm uses to track them down, then do something to nullify it. Scent? Roll around in some dirt, twigs, mud, and smell like a pile of dirt rather than a human. Sight? Camouflage and Hide. And so on and so forth. Or if they have ultra sensitive senses, overload them.

Sensitive ears? Well... Thunderstone in the midst of them and watch just how that goes with ultra sensitive hearing and a loud noise right in your midst.

[Palanan]

Okay...at this point, I need some help working out exactly how this swarm is gonna roll.

I'd like to use the telthor template from Unapproachable East, so the swarm's type changes to fey, with the incorporeal subtype. According to the template description, "the base creature's melee attacks become incorporeal touch attacks."


1. Does this add anything to the touch attacks, or does this just give the clause about ignoring damage from corporeal sources, etc.?

2. Does being fey really do anything for a swarm?