Good tibbit classes

[Pesimismrocks]

I'm starting a new campaign where obscure races are encouraged. There is already a spellcaster, tank, barbarian and ninja. All that is left is either a party face or a trapfinder. I love the tibbit race and was thinking of being a savant. Is this a good idea or is there a better class to go with the trapfinding role

[UnjustCustos]

You have a trapfinder already, the spell caster. Isn't that what Summon Monster is for?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Psionics are pretty good for Tibbits in general and Psychic Rogue is pretty neat, so I am going to suggest that.

[Kazyan]

Wilder, maybe? Psionics don't need conventional components, they've got social skills + CHA focus, and you can toss out Astral Constructs like candy to find the traps.

EDIT: SwordsagePsychic Rogue'd

[Pesimismrocks]

The spellcaster is chaotic evil, and generlly refuses to help the rest of the pary, unless in combat or it suits him. Also I have not yet read the psionics handbook, what can the psychic rouge or wilder actually do?

[kestrel404]

Tibbits make excellent Warlocks, and Warlocks make good faces.
Psychic rogue is also a reasonable option. It's in the Wizards online archives here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) (WoTC's website appears to be down, ATM).
Wilders kind of suck. They do nothing well.

Other interesting options include Factotum (for trapfinding, while also allowing you to be a face & other stuff), Scout (again, trapfinding and skirmish goes well with tibbits) and if you want a REALLY interesting cross, Dragonfire Adept (Firebreathing Cat!).

[Amnestic]

Tibbits make excellent Warlocks, and Warlocks make good faces.

[...]
Dragonfire Adept (Firebreathing Cat!).

Problem with both of these is you can't use invocations in cat form due to somatic components. DFA is slightly better due to most of their invocations being 24 hour buffs though.

[Pesimismrocks]

I have considered a dragonfire adept but the Dm thinks of them as underpowered. I also like the warlock class and i have not yet seen the pschic rogue class, although psionics confuse me.
Finally factotums are the only one of these I have played before and i really didn't like their playing style. At some points they were underpowered and the DM would always conteract my inspiration points with magical wapons. Three standard actions with a magical greatsword that deals acid damadge (one of the only ways to kill a troll) and naturally the troll had a magic weapon that healed all acid damadge.
Really its either dragonfire adept or pschic-rogue at the time being, mainly because this DM has a particular knack for knocking off high charisma spellcasters as well as somatic components.
Also I forgot to mention earlier but this is a level 11 campaign at the point i am going in, where other players are halfway through to level 12

[kestrel404]

I have considered a dragonfire adept but the Dm thinks of them as underpowered. I also like the warlock class and i have not yet seen the pschic rogue class, although psionics confuse me.
Finally factotums are the only one of these I have played before and i really didn't like their playing style. At some points they were underpowered and the DM would always conteract my inspiration points with magical wapons. Three standard actions with a magical greatsword that deals acid damadge (one of the only ways to kill a troll) and naturally the troll had a magic weapon that healed all acid damadge.
Really its either dragonfire adept or pschic-rogue at the time being, mainly because this DM has a particular knack for knocking off high charisma spellcasters as well as somatic components.
Also I forgot to mention earlier but this is a level 11 campaign at the point i am going in, where other players are halfway through to level 12

If the GM thinks DFAs are underpowered, ask to be able to choose from Warlock invocations (and possibly get a few extra invocations - they're really hurting for those). That should at least put you on par with the Ninja & barbarian.

And if you can use invocation in cat form (I've always played the druid feat that lets you cast while wildshaped is available to anyone for handling this issue), then you should be golden.

As for psionics, the basic idea is dead simple. Instead of getting spell slots, you get spell points. A level N spell costs 2*N-1 points to cast (1,3,5,7,etc). All psionic characters get 'known spells' the same way sorcerors do, but they don't generally tell you how many of any given level you learn, they just tell you how many you gain per level and you can choose to learn any spell you can cast. You can cast any spell you know by spending whatever spell points it costs, and you can buff your spells to be cooler by spending extra points (up to your caster level as a max). Your spell points refresh when you sleep, like spell slots. Now replace the word 'spell' with the word 'power' and you've got Psionics. That simple.

The psychic rogue class, just FYI, gets 3/4 BAB, good reflex saves, Evasion, Sneak attack at about +1d6/3 levels, and the same psionic ability progression as a psychic warrior with a sneakier list of powers they can learn.

[Bhu]

Official 3.5 only or are you allowed homebrew or third party?

[tuesdayscoming]

Just throwing it out there:

Surrogate Spellcasting, a feat from Savage Species, will allow you to cast spells in cat form (and, for that matter, any other form), and is available from level 1.

[Pesimismrocks]

Generally I would like to keep to official 3.5 sources. Mainly because he doesn't trust me after the factotum. Also is there any way, feats or ability, that would let me speak in cat form. With surrogate caster I can cast invocations in cat form but I still need a way to communicate.

[tuesdayscoming]

I still need a way to communicate.

A few suggestions:

• Open Least Chakra (Crown) and Shape Soulmeld (Shedu Crown) feats, taken together, give you telepathy
• Fell Conspiracy feat gives you limited, pseudo-telepathic communication
• Pearl of Speech

[Pesimismrocks]

Pearl of speech is a fantastic investment for 600 gp. Thanks

[Scow2]

Generally I would like to keep to official 3.5 sources. Mainly because he doesn't trust me after the factotum. Also is there any way, feats or ability, that would let me speak in cat form. With surrogate caster I can cast invocations in cat form but I still need a way to communicate.

Ask about Bhu's homebrew "Cat Burglar" class and its assorted feats, spells, magic items, and spin-off classes anyway!

[Person_Man]

I suggest using the Confound the Bigfolk Feat from Races of the Wild. It has some very specific mechanics you have to follow, but basically if you're two sizes smaller then your enemy then you can move into his square, and the next round he’s Flat Footed against you, and when other enemies attack you they have a 50% chance of hitting the enemy in your square instead of you.

It works well with at least 4 levels of Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429) (forcing enemies to attack you, and thus have a 50% chance of hitting their ally instead).

It also works well with any build that uses Iaijutsu Focus (from Oriental Adventures) like OA Samurai or Factotum, which gives you a nice damage bonus vs. Flat Footed enemies on the attack immediately after you draw your weapon (once, or any number of times with a Gnomish Quickrazor).

You might even ask your DM to waive the stupid Knight's Code, which forces you to lose a Challenge every time you hit a Flat Footed enemy, so you can do a Factotum/Knight/PrC build.

There's also Binder. In addition to having a lot of good Standard Action effects which are not size dependent, the Zagon vestige grants you Snake Bane, Aversion (basically Antipathy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antipathy.htm), a very potent effect, though you'll need to create snakes with another vestige to trigger it against your enemies), Improved Grapple, Constrict, and you specifically count as Large (not one size larger - Large) for the purpose of your opposed Grapple checks. I just love the thought of a Tiny character Grappling an Ogre to death.

Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) grants Sneak Attack, Rogue Skills (minus UMD), Mind Cripple (2 points of Int damage on each Sneak Attack), plus a fairly good selection of psionic powers, such as Compression (-2 size, +4 Dex, +2 to hit, +8 Hide), Hustle, Vigor, True Seeing, Read Thoughts, and others.

But even if you're going with a more strait forward melee build like a Totemist, CoDzilla, Gish, Tome of Battle, etc, having Confound the Bigfolk is a nice option.

[Pesimismrocks]

While I do live the mechanics of confound the big folk/ knight, I do need either a trapfinder or party face. I can see it working with a class like savant or another sneak attack class and I think it would work perfect with the pschic rogue idea. Problem is then that you can do little in the way of combat damage in cat form I have also just read Bhu's cat burglar. It looks amazing to play.

Also on a side note, what sourcebook does pschic rogue come from?

[tuesdayscoming]

what sourcebook does pschic rogue come from

Complete Psionics, IIRC. If not, Expanded Psionics Handbook.

edit: looks like it's from a WotC online article. Unfortunately, those are down right now.

[Pesimismrocks]

If they only exist as an article the Dm probably won't let me play as one. I will have to check tomorrow. Thanks anyway

I do still think either a dragonfire adept or a pschic rogue looks best buti do need to read the article and I dont really want to dumpstat wisdom. To wise its difficult to draw a line between intelligence and wisdom

[Eldest]

Generally I would like to keep to official 3.5 sources. Mainly because he doesn't trust me after the factotum.

The Factotum is from an official source, and a 3.5 one. Dungeonscape.

EDIT: And the article that the other person was linking was an excerpt from another book, if I remember correctly. Likely one of the two listed beforehand.

[Pesimismrocks]

I know it was from dungeonscape but he thought it was overpowered and I was perhaps adding extra rules to my charecter. Which I wasn't. He thinks the ability to make three attacks a turn cast a maximised fireball and save the cleric from dying was too varied and untrustworthy

[Psyren]

Wilders kind of suck. They do nothing well.


Not true at all - they're weaker than Psions, sure, but they can still blow most other T3s out of the water and they can still break the game without too much difficulty.


Problem with both of these is you can't use invocations in cat form due to somatic components. DFA is slightly better due to most of their invocations being 24 hour buffs though.

DFA invocations can't be used in cat form, but their breath is Su, not an SLA. It has no somatic components at all.

[Eldest]

I know it was from dungeonscape but he thought it was overpowered and I was perhaps adding extra rules to my character. Which I wasn't. He thinks the ability to make three attacks a turn cast a maximized fireball and save the cleric from dying was too varied and untrustworthy

Um. Did you point out that while you can't do all of those things, at least not at the same time? Not enough Inspiration Points. And to cast a maximized fireball, you'd have to be very, very high level. Close to the point where a full caster can do all of those things, several times a day, at one time. Even the healing, though wands.

I like the Factotum a fair amount; it is perhaps my favorite class. I will not continue to argue in it's favor, though, since I'm sure that some random guy on the internet telling your DM it's a good, balanced class will not convince him. Even though it is.

[Ravens_cry]

See if your DM will let you take any of these (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) feats and new skill uses.

[Pesimismrocks]

Firstly the factotum was 15th level, but yes he could not use them all at once.
I also love the cat feats, and I hope the DM will let me use them.
Finally I would like to get the surrogate caster feat so invocations wil not be a problem in cat form.

[D4rtagnan]

Had a bard tibbit once. Kept he in cat mode and pretend to be a normal cat. Only one of the other players knew he was an actual PC. Made so much use of the disguised spell feat and performance: look cute. It took the other players almost the entire campaign before they finally figured out that the cat was a fellow PC.

[Ellrin]

Just throwing it out there:

Surrogate Spellcasting, a feat from Savage Species, will allow you to cast spells in cat form (and, for that matter, any other form), and is available from level 1.

Sorry to go a little off topic here, but this is the first time I looked at that, and I just wanted to check whether being a native outsider would qualify you for that feat. I can't see why not right now, but it is very late right now.

On topic of factota: I've always thought they were one of the more interesting base classes (instead of just another variation on caster or stick beater), though I've never gotten around to making one myself. I can see where inexperienced DMs would get freaked out by them. Jacks of all trades in D&D tend to hardcore suck, and when you see one that's actually effective, it almost seems unbalanced. Maybe there's a way (not for your current build, you don't want to antagonize the guy) to subtly suggest he take a look at some of the actual gamebreaking stuff out there? Just to help him grow as a DM.

Again, it's very late, so I can't recall, but is there anyway to effectively set up a bard with trapfinding/disable device? Other than that, the idea of a tibbit bard/sublime chord (or maybe some of the other good bard PrC's) is kind of tickling my fancy, and he'd make a great face. Assuming you can use bardic music in cat form, you could specialize in Perform (yowl) or Perform (purr). Heh.

@D4:
Did the player have more than one character? And even if he wasn't, was he playing by relaying his actions through the DM, or... I'm confused how this would work in real world mechanics.

[only1doug]

Sorry to go a little off topic here, but this is the first time I looked at that, and I just wanted to check whether being a native outsider would qualify you for that feat. I can't see why not right now, but it is very late right now.


I can see no reason why not, the only Prerequisites are a moderate Wisdom stat and either nonhumanoid or nonhumanlike form, as long as you have a form that meets that pre-requisite you can gain the feat.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, let me see if I can help you on trap finding.

Grab some ranks in UMD (A good thing to do in most cases.), and An Eternal Wand of Extended Silence.

Now, grab a Collar of Perpetual Attendance, you can find it in the Fabulous Cat's Wizards Web Artical.

Have the at will Unseen Servant granted by the Collar drag a 100 pound rock around with a silence spell on it. If it goes over a trap trigger, move it forward and back some to make sure it's not an auto resetting trap. If it breaks, have a couple of rocks that were hit with a Shrink Item spell kept in a bag of holding to pick right back up where you left off.

Guess what, you now don't need a class that can find traps, you have gear for that.

[Person_Man]

If they only exist as an article the Dm probably won't let me play as one. I will have to check tomorrow. Thanks anyway

I do still think either a dragonfire adept or a pschic rogue looks best buti do need to read the article and I dont really want to dumpstat wisdom. To wise its difficult to draw a line between intelligence and wisdom

There's always Beguiler, Binder, Totemist, Psion, etc.

And if for some reason homebrew is on the table, my Vanguard (check my signature) is hilariously fun to play, works well with small/tiny characters, and has been playtested by several Playgrounders.

[Ellrin]

I can see no reason why not, the only Prerequisites are a moderate Wisdom stat and either nonhumanoid or nonhumanlike form, as long as you have a form that meets that pre-requisite you can gain the feat.

Is that how you're reading the prereqs? I see that, but I was reading it last night that you have to either be a non-humanoid type, or you need a form that isn't human-like (plus the Wis 13, of course). The way it's worded, it feels, to me, like that was how it was intended, but the way you're reading it makes way more sense from the fluff angle. Anyway, it's pretty much a nonissue at the moment, I was just curious. /tangent

[Fouredged Sword]

Be a NE shapeshifter druid 6 / warshaper 4 / druid x.

Take willing deformity tall and sit on the evil wizards solders. Have 10ft reach. Let everyone think you are his familiar.

[Pesimismrocks]

Guess what, you now don't need a class that can find traps, you have gear for that.
The problem I have with this is that 60% of the traps this DM sets are traps that summon some sort of monster (generally iron golems). I would much prefer an acual class with the trapfinder ability

[elvengunner69]

You have a trapfinder already, the spell caster. Isn't that what Summon Monster is for?

I really don't get why this is mentioned? Summon monster lasts a round per lvl -- a fifth lvl Wizard gets a monster for what? 50 seconds? I guess you better hope the monster finds it fast? Am I missing something?

Tibbits and Rogue/Beguilers are a fun fix.