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Brett Nortje
2013-01-31, 07:03 PM
I am watching an irc game, and it was great, until they started rolling dice for drinking beer. this ruined it for me. i suppose the more dice you roll, the worse your game becomes? who agrees with that.

This thread if for discussing dice rolling. should it only be used for combat and skill tests? if not, why not? if so, why so?

valadil
2013-01-31, 07:36 PM
Dice should be used to resolve conflicts. Determining who is a better swordsman is a conflict. Putting beer mug to lips is not. If the players are trying to get admitted to a frat house, beer drinking skill may matter but in most games it just doesn't.

jindra34
2013-01-31, 07:39 PM
Dice should be used to resolve conflicts. Determining who is a better swordsman is a conflict. Putting beer mug to lips is not. If the players are trying to get admitted to a frat house, beer drinking skill may matter but in most games it just doesn't.

Agreed don't roll just drink. Maybe a roll or two if you get involved in a serious drinking contest (dwarf challenges you for a piece of information or some such), but for everyday stay with no time pressure? NO.

Slipperychicken
2013-01-31, 07:39 PM
Dice should be used to resolve conflicts. Determining who is a better swordsman is a conflict. Putting beer mug to lips is not. If the players are trying to get admitted to a frat house, beer drinking skill may matter but in most games it just doesn't.

This. Most I'd roll for drinking is opposed Fort saves (as though against poison), just to see who won. The players can make up whatever details they want and chuckle about it -it doesn't matter.

Lord Il Palazzo
2013-01-31, 07:40 PM
I haven't seen the game you're talking about, so I can't comment directly.

My group will roll for pointless things occasionally. It can be a little annoying if it's taken too far or goes on too long, but it's no worse than any other off-topic conversation or distraction at the table. I'm there to have fun with friends; if indulging in a little joking around is more fun than shouting at them to stay focused for four or five hours, why not go along with it?

I definitely wouldn't say that "the more dice you roll, the worse your game becomes". Some people like a lot of randomness (such as dice rolling) in their games, some don't. Some like the tension of having things left up to chance, some don't. It's way too subjective to say "more dice rolling equals worse game".

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-01-31, 08:31 PM
To steal Vincent Baker's advice...

"Every moment of play, roll dice or say 'yes'. If nothing is at stake, say 'yes' [to the player's request], whatever they're doing."

If you're rolling dice, it needs to matter. So, either don't roll the dice, or else make it matter.

Don't roll for drinking beer just out of nowhere. Roll when you have to drink the Dwarven ambassador under the table to seal a deal.

(Then again, sometimes people just like being stupid/random for fun.)

kyoryu
2013-01-31, 08:38 PM
To steal Vincent Baker's advice...

"Every moment of play, roll dice or say 'yes'. If nothing is at stake, say 'yes' [to the player's request], whatever they're doing."


That's great advice for a narrative game, but sometimes seeing what comes out of the system/RNG is part of the fun.

snoopy13a
2013-01-31, 09:09 PM
It's ok if the players are playing "Three Man."

ArcturusV
2013-01-31, 09:15 PM
Sometimes I ask for a roll (Or roll myself) just because I don't particularly care one way or another, but it has some effect I don't normally want them to have for free.

e.g.: Haggling with a merchant to get 10% off an item. In the grand scheme, it's not a big deal. I don't care. But I don't just want them to be able to just SAY they are getting discounts.

Sometimes I really do a needless dice roll just to feed paranoia. If my players suddenly see me stop to roll dice a couple of times out of their sight... well... it puts them on edge. And sometimes I just want them on edge.

1337 b4k4
2013-01-31, 09:45 PM
You should roll dice as often as the rolling will increase the fun being had. That is, if everyone around the table will have fun rolling out a drinking contest (as groups I've been in have done), then go ahead and roll to your heart's content. If on the other hand, it won't be fun, then just compare fort scores, draw lots or DM fiat the answer and move on. Dice rolling is there to generate a randomized or uncertain outcome, and lets face it, rolling dice is fun. So roll as long as the roll is making things fun.

Jay R
2013-02-01, 12:29 AM
The dice aren't always being rolled for what the players think they are. And sometimes I make unnecessary rolls so I can make a necessary one without giving away information.

PCs: We take another drink.
DM: Roll your die. (Ignores the die roll except for the one time in ten that a thief tries to pick their pockets while they drink. Then it's a Spot check.)

But if they fail to make the Spot check, the players don't know something happened until they try to pay for the beer.

SowZ
2013-02-01, 12:33 AM
My players sometimes volunteer rolls as a joke for things like drinking beer or sex or something, but they all know it is just being silly and has no real bearing.

nedz
2013-02-01, 08:06 AM
It sounds like a harmless distraction — but if you're bothered by it then obviously your game needs a non-harmless distraction. Throw a 'random' encounter at them.

EccentricCircle
2013-02-01, 08:54 AM
I agree that some DM's call for dice rolls in situations when they are not needed. In such a case it can damage the game, as every dice roll brings with it a fairly high chance of failure. If its something which your character shouldn't resonably be able to fail at then rolling the dice is more likely to detract from the enjoyment of the players.

I use dice rolls in the following circumstance.


The DM calls for a player to make a roll to see whether they succeed or fail at a task of known dificulty (this should only be done if chance of failure is significant and if failure matters)

The DM calls for all of the players to make rolls because all of them are doing something and its important to know who does it best and who doesn't do as well. Someone will almost certainly succeed , so the actual DC is rarely significant. But the story is affected by who does well and who doesn't.

The DM or one of the players calls for a roll to determine who wins a contest, be it a fight, a conversation or anything else.

A player rolls a dice to determine how well they do at something, so as to direct their roleplaying. (for example rolling a will save to see if you fall asleep quickly or a con save to see how many pints you can drink.) such checks have no bearing on the success of failure of the story as a whole but provide detail and colour which the player feels will add something to their enjoyment of the game.

GolemsVoice
2013-02-01, 09:09 AM
I agree with all the others here, dice should be rolled if there's some possibility of failure, and if that failure matters to the people involved.

Did the attack hit or miss? That's important. Roll.
Can the fighter polish his armor enough to impress the ladies? I'm sure he can, if he wants to. No roll.

So if players just drink beer, they can do that all they want. I'd only make them roll if a) there's a contest or b) they're drinking so much that it may influence their performance later, and that performance is important. So if they'll get in a fight, it's important to know if the PCs are already shaky from the alcohole. If they just drink one too many and tell an embarassing story before heading home, okay.

Also, if the player actively desires the "negative" outcome, e.g. "I want to get drunk" I'll not make him roll to see if he actually can get drunk or after how many beers, I'll just adjust my description according to the character's stamina.

NOhara24
2013-02-02, 03:47 AM
If the player has a theoretically unlimited amount of time to complete their given task or there is no risk of failure otherwise, I won't make them roll.

Going based off of the example given in the post above mine, I wouldn't make him roll for that because he hasn't given any deadline that he must meet or any risk of failure. He just wants to polish his armor to impress women, like it's been said, given enough time I'm sure he could manage that.

Now, if the question were "Can the fighter polish his armor to impress the nobility before he goes to the royal ball in 20 minutes?" Then yes, he'd have to roll because a risk of failure is introduced upon limiting the amount of time he has to complete his task.

Now for casually drinking and most mundane tasks, I think it's assumed that the players just "take 10" unless they're somehow hindered. (Walking vs. attempting to walk with a broken ankle. I'd make them roll a balance check every now and again if they wanted to walk at normal speed.)

The only way I'd make a player roll while casually drinking is if either by common sense or by fort save it becomes established that they're HAMMERED. At that point though, your character runs a risk of passing out.

TL;DR - If there runs a risk of failure in the player's attempted task, then they need to roll.

Jay R
2013-02-02, 09:36 AM
The primary reason to make people roll when there is no real risk of failure is to hide the fact that sometimes there is a real risk of failure that the players aren't aware of.


Player: We try to go through the door.
DM: It opens.
(later)
Player: We try to go through the door.
DM: It opens.
(later)
Player: We try to go through the door.
DM: Make a die roll.
Player: Everybody get ready - there's a possible trap or other danger on this door.

If they had made a die roll each time, then the DM didn't announce that the third door was different until the characters find out.

When I have the party make a roll in which there is no real risk of failure, and they roll low, I ostentatiously write something down in my notes and say. "Nothing apparent happens. The door opens."

White_Drake
2013-02-02, 10:06 AM
Funnily enough, there are actually some fairly involved rules for drinking in the A&EG. I once played a barbarian that won 140 gp in a drinking contest resolved with a simplified version of them.

SowZ
2013-02-02, 10:57 AM
Funnily enough, there are actually some fairly involved rules for drinking in the A&EG. I once played a barbarian that won 140 gp in a drinking contest resolved with a simplified version of them.

Were people betting their houses on a drinking game?

Slipperychicken
2013-02-02, 06:48 PM
Were people betting their houses on a drinking game?

Questgivers. High level NPCs with appropriate WBL. Adventurers.

nedz
2013-02-02, 08:06 PM
Questgivers. High level NPCs with appropriate WBL. Adventurers.

I'll put the mission to recover the McGuffin of Doom on Red.

Waddacku
2013-02-02, 08:31 PM
If my character has a session of heavy drinking, I have no interest in me or the DM just deciding how it goes. I want to roll and see what happens. It probably will have no bearing whatsoever on anything else in the game, but I want his "success" or "failure" (whatever you put into those terms here) to be determined by him and the dice.
Naturally, often there aren't any actual rules for it, so the result still needs interpreting. How well things went for the character relative both to other characters and to his own earlier and later endeavors is shown by his statistics and the dice, though. And that kind of information makes things feel so much more alive to me.
Not to mention you tend to get funnier results that way.

Slipperychicken
2013-02-02, 08:35 PM
I'll put the mission to recover the McGuffin of Doom on Red.

To mercenaries adventurers, contracts are highly lucrative, so I could see trading them being legit. Actually, trading contracts sounds like one way to start up an mercenary adventurer's guild.

nedz
2013-02-02, 09:04 PM
To mercenaries adventurers, contracts are highly lucrative, so I could see trading them being legit. Actually, trading contracts sounds like one way to start up an mercenary adventurer's guild.

Yes but they are not really convertible. What's the house going to do with them, and how do you double them ?

mjlush
2013-02-03, 08:49 AM
I am watching an irc game, and it was great, until they started rolling dice for drinking beer. this ruined it for me. i suppose the more dice you roll, the worse your game becomes? who agrees with that.

This thread if for discussing dice rolling. should it only be used for combat and skill tests? if not, why not? if so, why so?

Dice are a really useful was to determine if anything extraordinary happens.
Consider two scenarios Diceless (or low dice) vs Diced

Diceless: PC's go out one a bender and get very drunk, one feels sick and heads outside, but accidentally vomits on the Lord High MuckMuck who in in disguise
walking the city...

Diced: PC's go out on a bender and get very drunk, one of them fumbles his Fort roll and GM says he feels sick, so he heads outside, only to fumble his second Fort roll, GM decides he is sick over someone, rolls 00 on a social standing table, so he vomits on the Lord High MuckMuck who in in disguise walking the city...

In the first case this incident was probably planned by the GM (perhaps not in that form but as 'Players offend LHMM') with the idea that he wants them to leave town in a hurry.... and the players know it. In a sense there being victimized by the GM there is no reason why those events should happen they have to be part of the plotline.

In truth the diceless scenario would be more like "PC's go on a bender, get drunk and wake up with hangovers", because that's the more likely thing to happen but YMMV.

In the latter case the dice did it to the game (with a bit of input from the GM), they know exactly what the odds were and that they were pretty remote, so thats OK.... (One could argue that the odds are much too low ie 1 in 40000 drunks vomit over the Lord High MuckMuck but lets gloss over that :-). The players have a nice story and the GM has a new plotline to play with.

Now I'm not saying that you should roll for everything, but a exploratory dice roll is a great way to determine if some apparently insignificant event has a much greater importance.

Michael
--
NPC rights activist | Nameless Abominations are people too

Slipperychicken
2013-02-03, 09:41 AM
Yes but they are not really convertible. What's the house going to do with them, and how do you double them ?

It's like trading debt in that sense. What you're receiving is the right to get a bunch of money from the document. It does the same thing as when you bet a house or car; sell it, then divide the proceeds.

nedz
2013-02-03, 10:09 AM
It's like trading debt in that sense. What you're receiving is the right to get a bunch of money from the document. It does the same thing as when you bet a house or car; sell it, then divide the proceeds.

Well they're not really the same thing as a concrete asset — and it's very hard to quantify their value. Now you may have a valuable dragon slaying quest, but there's nothing to stop someone else pipping you to the post — or even the Dragon from eating you. Even if you could mitigate these downsides, you still wouldn't know how large the hoard was until you pillaged it.

Slipperychicken
2013-02-03, 10:46 AM
Well they're not really the same thing as a concrete asset — and it's very hard to quantify their value. Now you may have a valuable dragon slaying quest, but there's nothing to stop someone else pipping you to the post — or even the Dragon from eating you. Even if you could mitigate these downsides, you still wouldn't know how large the hoard was until you pillaged it.

Hire a consultant with a decent Appraise to get you a figure.

Guizonde
2013-02-03, 11:03 AM
with a bit of reflection, my dm's occasionnally threw pointless tests at us. one comes to mind involving drinking a small cup of beer... we all failed, and the roll was a sobriety roll.
a bit later, we tried to drink quite a bit. all he had to say was "guess what'll you roll?"
next was endurance, or agility, occasionally strength, or fortitude. my dm's never roll pointlessly. they're training us to expect to suffer for our consequences. that, and they keep alive the mantra:"if the dm didn't say, don't roll yet".

honestly, i don't mind rolling dice, aside from normal gamer superstition that i might jinx them

Kane0
2013-02-03, 06:51 PM
Yeah, too much dice rolling ruins things. Even worse in larger groups.

Out of combat, I only ask for rolls concerning skills or random chance. Otherwise I RP it out.

In combat, I try to minimize rolls where I can to streamline play, but thats more via game rules than DM methods.

Gnomish Wanderer
2013-02-04, 02:08 AM
I follow two very loose rules when it comes to rolls: Roll when it's fun and try to keep the rolls down to as little as possible per action being rolled for. I think what hurts the game the most is when you end up making four successive rolls for one task or the like. Other than that, rolling IS fun by itself and there are things that really shouldn't be rolled for but I sometimes call for rolls to increase the level of fun. I don't want to narrate and tell the players what happens all the time, I want to find out what happened by arbitrarily deciding what different dice rolls mean :smalltongue: The distinction, somehow, matters.