One Feat Does not a Leader Make [3.5, Feats, PEACH]

[Amechra]

So, umm... this is something that I hope will help out with fixing leadership? Maybe?

New System Term: [Follower]
A Follower is a weak creature that is fully drawn to the glory and majesty of a fully heroic or monstrous being; they aren't very strong individually, but under the direction of a proper leader, they tend towards being a semi-effective force.

Unless a feat or class feature modifies what capabilities a follower has, they are a member of a humanoid race with an LA of at most +0 and no racial HD, have the non-elite ability array, and may have a number of Commoner levels up to the amount listed in the following table:

{table=head]Leader's Level|Maximum Commoner Levels
1-3|NA
4-6|1st
7-9|2nd
10-12|3rd
13-15|4th
16-18|5th
19+|6th[/table]

Followers do not gain levels or experience normally; they also cannot take feats that allow them to gain their own followers. Followers are, by default, Helpful towards their leader, and may not be increased to Fanatical (because reasons); however, depending on the actions of their leader, their attitude towards them may become more hostile; if a Follower would be reduced to Indifferent, they cease to be a Follower, but do not lose the benefits of any Training effects that they have received.

If a Follower dies, you can obtain new ones based on the standard method of how you, you know, got them in the first place. The limit on how many followers you may have at one time is determined by what feats you have.

Unless otherwise stated, the DM selects the feats and skills that the followers have. It is suggested that they give them feats and skills that would be helpful in their normal, day-to-day life.

A group of Followers is referred to as their leader's Posse.

New System Term: [Training]
If a feat or an ability states that they are a "training effect", they modify the effects of the training that the Leader can give due to the Leadership feat, or through an ability that says that it works in a similar manner.

A Training effect takes what is referred to as a Training action, which normally takes 8 hours involving drilling and instructing your Followers. You may normally only apply one Training effect for each Training action you take.

Training effects do not automatically affect all of your Followers; they only affect those that are present for the Training action that you take. In addition, if your Training effect gives you a choice, that choice is the same for all Followers affected by that particular use of the effect.

Training effects cannot be modified or removed by spells or effects unless those spells or effects explicitly interact with Training effects.

Auspicious Aid Another [Fighter]
You are good at being helpful. Very good.
Benefits: You may make an Aid Another check as a swift action.

In addition, whenever you successfully use aid another on a creature's attack roll, you may have the bonus instead apply to the damage that they deal with that attack.

Leadership [Fighter][Leader]
You are good at leading a small force; they look up to you, and are generally your gophers.
Prerequisites: Character level 4th, Charisma 13+
Benefits: You gain a number of Followers equal to either half your level or your Charisma modifier, plus your highest ability modifier; temporary effects and magical items that increase or decrease your ability scores are ignored for the purposes of Leader feats.

You do not automatically gain these Followers; instead, over the course of an 8-hour period spent in an area where there are at least 50 people that are not unfriendly to you, you may add one follower plus another for every 10 extra creatures comprising that group to your Posse.

Additionally, you gain the following two abilities:


Rudimentary Combat Training: You may, as a Training effect, grant your Followers proficiency with all Simple weapons and one Martial weapon of your choice; in addition, as part of the same action, you may retrain any of their non-bonus feats, granting them access to any Fighter or General feats that they qualify for.

Bettering Your Lessers: You may, as a Training effect, grant your Followers an additional level in the Commoner class, subject to the limits on the highest number of hit-dice that any of your Followers may have. You may select what skills and feats that your Followers gain through leveling.

Glorious Troop Morale [Fighter][Leader]
It's not a bad deal following you; your Followers are healthier and happier following you that they were before you brought them into your service.
Prerequisites: Leadership
Benefits: Upon taking this feat, all of your Followers gain a +1 morale bonus to all d20 rolls and to their AC. In addition, you gain access to the following abilities:


Loyalty Unto Death: You may, as a Training effect, permanently grant your Followers a morale bonus to Will saves against Fear, Charm, and Compulsion effects equal to either your Charisma modifier or +4, whichever is higher. In addition, they treat any command that would, to their knowledge, harm you or damage one of your plans as if it were an obviously suicidal order.

Teachings from Above: You may, as part of another Training effect, make an Aid Another check; all of your Followers permanently gain the normal benefits of that Aid Another check, except that you may choose to use your Charisma modifier in place of the normal bonus granted by your Aid Another action, and that the bonus granted by this ability is a morale bonus instead of a circumstance bonus.

Finally, you may, at the end of any actual combat in which you are personally involved, take a single Training action as a free action, targeting all of your Followers that participated in that battle.

Make A Man Out of You [Fighter][Leader]
Did I recruit a group of men, or did I recruit a scared group of little girls? I will break you down and rebuild you, harder, better, faster, and stronger!
Prerequisites: Leadership, Auspicious Aid Another, Intimidate 9 ranks
Benefits: Upon taking this feat, you gain the following abilities:


Building Better Soldiers: You may, as a Training effect, trade any number of Commoner levels that your Followers have as either Warrior or Expert levels; these retrained levels may be granted in any combination that you wish.

Charles Atlas Methodologies: You may as a Training effect, replace your Follower's ability scores with the Elite array, which is then modified as normal by their racial ability score modifiers. In addition, any Follower that has been affected by this Training effect before increases all of their ability scores by 2, which replaces the normal benefits of this Training effect. This cannot increase any of their ability scores above your own permanent ability scores.

Feared Above the Gods: You may, as a Training effect, grant your Followers a number of temporary hit points equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1) times their hit dice. You may, by taking 10 minutes to speak to them (or otherwise instill in them the fear of godyou), refill this pool of temporary HP.

Finally, this feat modifies the effects of Bettering your Lessers; you may now grant additional Expert or Warrior levels in place of Commoner levels.
Special: If you use a different ability score in place your Charisma for the purposes of Intimidate checks, you may replace your Charisma modifier with that ability score's modifier for the purposes of this feat.

Expansive Training [Fighter][Leader]
You have learned just enough to teach people how to do things that you yourself don't know how to do. Man, are you proud of yourself.
Prerequisites: Make A Man Out of You
Benefits: Upon taking this feat, your Bettering your Lessers and Building Better Soldiers abilities are expanded; you may use them to retrain or grant levels in any NPC class except for Aristocrat that you wish, instead of just Commoner, Expert, or Warrior.

In addition, you gain the following two abilities:


Instructions on Hygiene: You may, as a Training effect, grant your Followers immunity to all non-supernatural Diseases and a +4 bonus on saves against Poison.

Superior Bivouacking Skills: You may, as a Training effect, grant your Followers the ability to refill their temporary hit points from Feared Above the Gods by sleeping for 8 hours, at the same rate that they heal from normal hit point damage.

In addition, they may heal ability drain as if it were ability damage, treating each point of ability drain as if it were two points of ability damage.

Squamous Leader of Cults [Leader][Aberrant]
As the saying goes, there is nothing in this world that will not be worshiped or followed by men.
Prerequisites: Leadership, Aberration Blood, Charisma 15+
Benefit: All of your Leader feats are treated as Aberrant feats for all purposes. In addition, you may use Rudimentary Combat Training to retrain any of your Followers' non-bonus feats into Aberrant feats.

Finally, treat any penalties to skills that you might have due to the Aberrant feats that you have as if they were bonuses instead.

Leader of Many [Leader][Fighter]
You have learned how to lead a greater number of the weak than of the strong; the better to police a town with, of course!
Prerequisites: Leadership, ECL 9, Cha 15+
Benefits: When determining the number of creatures that you may lead, multiply the number of creatures that you can lead by your Charisma modifier (min. 1).

Community Leader [Leader][Fighter]
You have learned the skills necessary to manage a large area, not just a few people.
Prerequisites: Leadership, Diplomacy 12 ranks, Cha 15+
Benefits: You may, over the course of a week, convert a single District (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20030719a) that is at least Indifferent towards you into a Stronghold. When attempting to recruit Followers inside a Stronghold, it only takes 1 hour and you may double the population of the Stronghold when determining how many Followers you gain.

Each Stronghold you control counts as a single Follower when determining how many Followers you may control. The inhabitants of the Stronghold are not counted as Followers, and as such their attitudes are not automatically improved to Helpful.

Bustling Community [Leader][Fighter]
Communities that you lead show a marked decrease in their crime rates and a marked increase in their profitability.
Prerequisites: Leadership, Community Leader, Glorious Troop Morale
Benefits: You may teach Loyalty Unto Death and Teachings from Above to any Stronghold that you have as if it were a single Follower; the benefits of each taught effect only apply to residents of the Stronghold who are at least Friendly towards you.

When using Teachings from Above, you no longer have to have ranks in the skill you are granting a bonus to, as long as you are inside a Stronghold where you would have access to someone who has ranks in that skill.

Finally, any building in one of your Strongholds that is damaged recovers a number of hit points each hour equal to your Charisma modifier, as your leadership bolsters and repairs the decay of the masonry and subconsciously directs inhabitants to maintain their surroundings.

Unity of Purpose [Leader][Fighter]
Your stunningly exemplary nature inspires your followers to pattern their lives after you.
Prerequisites: Leadership
Benefits: Whenever a creature is affected by one of your Training effects, they may move their alignment one step towards your alignment.

You may choose to make your training contingent on them making this shift; if you do so, they do not receive the benefits of the training unless they make the shift.

Religious Revival [Leader][Fighter]
Your rulership fundamentally alters the very nature of a community.
Prerequisites: Unity of Purpose, Community Leader
Benefits: Any Stronghold that you control for at least one week is treated as if it were on a plane with a Mild alignment trait matching your alignment. If you control a Stronghold for at least a month, the trait improves to Strong.

Promote Lieutenants [Leader][Fighter]
You can teach a few of your followers to be half as good as you; that's good enough, right?
Prerequisites: Leadership, Leader of Many, Make a Man Out of You, Cha 17+
Benefits: You may spend 8 hours to promote a number of your Followers to Lieutenants equal to your Charisma modifier. For the purposes of the benefits your Lieutenants derive from your [Leader] feats and teaching effects, the maximum level of Follower you can have is equal to half your character level, and your Charisma modifier is considered to be 2 points higher.

You may only have a number of Lieutenants at one time equal to your highest ability score plus the higher of charisma modifier or half your class level; Lieutenants still count towards the number of followers that you may have.

In addition, you may use Building Better Soldiers to retrain or grant levels in any NPC prestige class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10951428&postcount=115) that they qualify for.

Exemplar Community [Leader][Fighter]
You lead communities, yes, but some communities draw your attention far more than others.
Prerequisites: Community Leader, Promote Lieutenants
Benefits: You may, over the course of a week, choose to promote one of your Strongholds to a Citadel. A Citadel is treated as if it were in a city one size larger or smaller whenever it would be advantageous to you or one of your Followers. In addition, whenever you hire Followers from a Citadel, you may apply one Training Effect to them for free.

A Citadel counts towards the number of Lieutenants you can have at one time.

Urban Renewal [Leader][Fighter]
Sometimes, you simply need to change the nature of a community you control.
Prerequisites: Community Leader
Benefits: You may, over the course of a month, change what type of District (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20030719a) one of your Strongholds is. Over this period of time, the population alters until it matches the target District.

Ruler of Cities [Leader][Fighter]
Your leadership flows like an all-consuming tide.
Prerequisites: Exemplar Community
Benefits: As long as you have a Citadel in a given city, Strongholds in that city don't count towards the number of Strongholds that you can have at one time.

Emperor Above All [Leader][Fighter][Epic]
The world has simply acquiesced to your control. Long live the King.
Prerequisites: Leader of Many, Ruler of Cities
Benefits: There is no limit to how many Followers you may have at one time; additionally, the number of Lieutenants that you may have at one time is multiplied by your Charisma modifier (minimum 1.)

Furthermore, any feat that affects one of your Strongholds over the course of a week instead affects it over the course of a day; any feat that affects one of your Strongholds over the course of a period longer than a week affect it over the course of a week.

Finally, you no longer have to be inside a community to convert a District into a Stronghold or recruit Followers.

[Zireael]

I like the concept and the feats.
What about Outsider Leadership? Animal Leadership?

[Amechra]

I'll probably end up writing those too; I've got about 3 or 4 others that I've gotta write (including how to promote a Lieutenant or the like).

Glad you like them!

[Friv]

I like the concept, but I'm not so big on the execution, for three reasons:

1) If you want these to be fighter-based feats, I would rather not have Charisma be the main deciding factor, because Charisma doesn't do anything else for fighters. No 9th-level Fighter will have Charisma 20; that requires actually devoting significant resources away from fighting and towards Leadership.

Now, if you want that to be valid, that's okay, but each follower needs to be as valuable as the benefit of raising a core trait higher in that case. Which leads to #2:

2) The people granted are neither numerous enough to be a functional army nor powerful enough to be used on a personal-scale situation. Assuming the use of every feat from 4th level to 9th level, a 9th level fighter with the aforementioned Charisma 20 has seven followers, who as warriors have the following stats:

Str 17, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Feats: Power Attack
Base Attack +2, HP 2d8+4 (12), F+5 / R +1 / W +0
Greatsword +10 [1d12+4], AC 19 [Chain Shirt]

Note that I am assuming the use of Leadership at Level 4, Happy Little Soldiers and Vocation Specialist at Level 6, Heroic Training at Level 8 and Exceptional Morale at Level 9.

12 HP. That means that any hit from just about any CR 8-10 creature is going to kill your followers on any successful hit, most CR 8 to 10 creatures have either Cleave or access to area attacks, and most CR 8 to 10 creatures have attack bonuses in the +15 to +20 range, so they are always going to hit. If your Level 9 guy tries to take his people into combat against equivalent enemies, they will all die in a single action. So you've used your amazing skills to slaughter your own men, buying a single turn.

So they're no good for adventuring. But there's only seven of them; they're no good for serving as a military unit, either, and they can't effectively police any region larger than a village.

And worst of all...

3) You've spent every feat you gained from Level 4 to Level 9, and invested heavily in Charisma, in order to get your minions up to the level of "not worthwhile". While the championing fighter was buying an entire feat tree in order to kill things more effectively, you had to use all of your unique resources just to get to a point where the guys you bought weren't a total waste of your time. If you were just a normal fighter who was moderately charismatic (let's say Charisma 14), rather than a fighter with an absurdly good Charisma, you have only four guys, and they're much less skilled (+7 to hit, and AC of only 17.

And if you're not a fighter, there's no reason to ever buy these feats at all; they require every feat you get from Level 6 to Level 20, and they're still not going to be valuable. You've moved the goalposts much too far towards "weaker".

[Amechra]

You forgot that they get a +1 morale bonus to all d20 rolls (not that that would help them much...)

Alright, so I'm going to have to think of a way to buff them up...

I'll probably end up consolidating the ones that are already posted (Exceptional Troop Morale could easily be folded into Happy Little Soldiers, Heroic Training will be parceled in with Vocational Training, which will get a new name, Survival is Glory could also give a HP buff; hell, extra HP equal to your Charisma modifier times their level would be enough to work with, wouldn't it?...)

Also, I can't really think of a good replacement for Charisma to base things off of; half level is too slow to scale, but...

Would adding the number of Leader feats you have to your Charisma modifier work for the feats?

With those changes, it would be 3 feats, letting you finish up the "chain" that I've set up so far at level 6, and would result in warriors with stats closer to (with the same Cha of 20, and at level 9, as before):

Charisma only.
Str 17, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Feats: Power Attack
Base Attack +2, HP 2d8+14 (22), F+6 / R +2 / W +1 (+4 vs. Fear)
Greatsword +10 [2d6+4], AC 19 [Chain Shirt]


Charisma+Leader feats.
Str 17, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Feats: Power Attack
Base Attack +2, HP 2d8+20 (28), F+6 / R +2 / W +1 (+4 vs. Fear)
Greatsword +13 [2d6+4], AC 22 [Chain Shirt]

Also, I'm reconsidering the number of Followers you have being only Charisma+1/2 [Leader] feats you have; bumping it up to Charisma+[Leader] feats would be better, if I'm considering correctly.

So, with those changes, your example Fighter would have 2nd level warriors with about the HP of a Warrior of 6th to 7th level that had the same Con. They would also hit as well as a 9th level Warrior with the same strength (and Weapon Focus (Greatsword)), have the saves of a character 2 levels higher.

I'm going to need something that will buff damage, won't I... Actually, including that in the boost from Exceptional Morale + Happy Little Soldiers might be worth it...

Further thoughts?

[SamBurke]

I really like this idea, but I do agree...

Perhaps you can use a feat to change it from a Charisma Bonus to a Strength Bonus?

Also, is there a way to make them Adepts?

Could you get more with a specialized feat (Double the number of people, basically)? If so, that should be taken multiple times.

Perhaps there's a way to give them a feat that you have, without them needing the Pre-reqs?

[Amechra]

I'm going to have feats that transfer your bonus to Strength, Intelligence, or Wisdom (Might Makes Right, Respected Intellectual, and Wise Sifu, respectively); I'll also have a feat that lets you use any NPC class for your followers, for one thing.

Another idea I'm having is that there will be a feat, Great Leader, which just straight-out triples your followers. Taking it a second time gives you six times the normal amount, while taking it a third time expands that to ten times the normal amount. I'm thinking that extra followers will be themselves weaker though (maybe have it so that feats that let you access other NPC classes only affect your base Posse, with everyone else having to be a Commoner, Warrior, or Expert.)

[Deepbluediver]

The biggest problem with a feat or feature that gets you lots of little minions is that D&D is not set up to handle large-group style combat. The mechanics work well for a small group of powerful characters, but break down when you try to hit single targets with a large mass of troops, or grinds to a halt glacier speed if you try to work out rolls for 2 large groups battering away at each other.

I would suggest one of two things: Leadership grants you a single minion/squire/apprentice/bodyguard/healer/etc who is effectively an additional PC that you control that is a few levels/HD lower than you. The DM can determine what sort of limits (if any) exist on what skills and abilities they can have, but they are, in effect, a character that is not as powerful as the rest of the group, but exists to help you in combat.

Option 2 is that leadership does not grant you in-combat help, but instead allows you to attract followers who will populate a home base or follow you around caravan-style, to provide out-of-dungeon support and backup. They might craft items, repair equipment, or generate an income for you, or evangelize and spread your gospel, if you are so inclined. They might start out as simple commoners, and eventually grow into profesional craftsmen, accountants, chefs, managers, etc.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Or, perhaps, the feats give you a squad/platoon/company, that acts as a single entity in combat.

[Deepbluediver]

Or, perhaps, the feats give you a squad/platoon/company, that acts as a single entity in combat.

If you have any ideas about mechanics, I'd love to see them, but my first reaction is that this causes a whole heap of problems that I was trying to avoid.

If the squad is one entity, does that mean all damage is evenly divided between all members? How exactly does that work? Ditto for healing.
If some individuals drop dead before other, how are they replaced?
What about AOE spells that affect an area occupied by only some of the soldiers?
What about attack rolls, do they either all hit or all miss? What if you arm them with different weapons?
What about things like flanking?
etc etc etc



I'm normally all for seeking out creative solutions, but maybe we just need to accept that controlling groups of low-power minions doesn't work very well, unless you are the kind of player who doesn't mind sending hordes of cannon-fodder to their death.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

What if you made the training feats into teamwork benefits instead, with one of the benefits of the Leadership feat being that you can ignore the normal teamwork benefit constraints such as max number of trainable characters when training followers? That would drastically reduce the feat consumption of these abilities, and this sort of thing is what teamwork benefits were designed to do in the first place.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you have any ideas about mechanics, I'd love to see them, but my first reaction is that this causes a whole heap of problems that I was trying to avoid.

I mean, there's an element of abstraction there, but... I've seen the mob rules from the DMG used. I've also used this (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hjp8?Military-Unit-by-template) a few times, which worked quite well.


If the squad is one entity, does that mean all damage is evenly divided between all members? How exactly does that work? Ditto for healing.
Abstract-- X damage kills Y men. Single-target spells and suchlike don't affect the group at all.


If some individuals drop dead before other, how are they replaced?
Can only be healed by taking time in town to recruit new soldiers?


What about AOE spells that affect an area occupied by only some of the soldiers?
The template I linked has the unit take 25% extra damage for each square covered by the AoE.


What about attack rolls, do they either all hit or all miss? What if you arm them with different weapons?
Iterative attacks dealing extra damage, but suffering extra penalties from DR. In the latter case, I guess you'd average the weapon effects, or designate one weapon type for each iterative.


What about things like flanking?
You can't flank, there's a hundred dudes there.

[Amechra]

I was about to mention mobs. Huh.

I know oslecamo has a trained unit template somewhere that I'll pillage...

EDIT: I think I'll make it so that the feat that grants you bonus Followers (multiples, wooh!) doesn't give you Followers. It instead gives you what I think I'll call a <Cool Name Here>, where you can get new followers faster, and which gets different benefits than your Posse (Cha to all Perform, Profession, and Craft skills sounds good...)

Also, I might as well state that Followers all act on the same initiative count.

As for Teamwork Benefits, I'm not liking them for this; they just don't feel right to me mechanically in this case.

I'll see what I can do with the "too many feats" problem...

[PairO'Dice Lost]

As for Teamwork Benefits, I'm not liking them for this; they just don't feel right to me mechanically in this case.

I'll see what I can do with the "too many feats" problem...

Hmm. Maybe if you grouped multiple feats together into feats that grant three benefits each like Tactical feats do? The constant benefits aren't overwhelming enough to be a problem if combined, I think, and giving multiple Training options for one feat shouldn't be a problem since you have to do them all separately and during downtime anyway.

You could combine Happy Little Soldiers, Exceptional Troop Morale, and Passionate Followers into one "inspirational leader" feat, and Vocation Specialization, Survival is Glory, and Heroic Training into one "exceptional trainer" feat. (I'd suggest calling the latter one I'll Make A Man Out Of You. :smallwink:)

[Amechra]

I actually was going to work on feat consolidation. Thanks for the name suggestion!

And, yeah, granting three benefits each is not overpowered, especially since I balanced out the whole thing with "they are going to be about a third of your level anyway."

[Omnicrat]

This seems to have a lot of potential, but I agree with Deepbluediver that you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. A weak group doesn't help with combat and a small group doesn't help (much) with maintenance of a keep or acquisitions of wealth or anything you would want followers for, really. Personally, I would rather you pull back on the combat focus, because either you have an ineffectual hoard (which is useless), a beneficial hoard (which is too useful) or a cohort (which is basically running another character).

A bunch (enough to fill a hamlet by lvl20) of low level NPCs who would die in almost any combat situation is what I want out of leadership (usually as followers of my cult/philosophy) but that doesn't seem to be what you want to deliver. I hope you're re-tooling leads to your feats being more inline with what I want.

[Doorhandle]

Maybe if you made it work like a myriad, or a mob? The followers act as 1 creature with H.D as appropriate for an animal companion of your level, but they effectively have multiple bodies/spaces, of a maximum equal to your level+cha+# of leadership feats. It would get the standard allotment of actions per turn (swift, standard, move or full-round,) but would get certain bonuses if it had multiple bodies in contact with one target (representing the usual advantage of swarming opponents.)

Also, perhaps you could have feats improving aid another? Like making it usable as a swift action, or making it also improve damage? Your followers would only be able to use those feats on each other though.

Personally, I think followers should be more useful out of combat, yes, but should also have limited use within it besides forming meat-shields, such as doing pressure damage, or occasionally interrupting something.

[Amechra]

Alright, here are my current thoughts:

1. The Leadership feat gives you access to two things: creating a Posse, and creating a Stronghold.

2. The Posse is going to be expanded on with feats like the above; I'm going to take the suggestion of dropping most of the feats into sets of three, and those are going to be the starting feats; if you want to, there are feats where you can "train" your Followers to be immune to negative levels, which boost their numbers, which grant them "magic items" (I'll cheat and use permanent soulmelds), basically make them princely. Their job isn't to win the fight; or, rather, it isn't to win the fight against big and fugly.

It's to distract the opposition long enough that your party can be the big damn heroes. Because leadership shouldn't deprotagonize the other PCs.

Sure, they'll die to an optimized Wizard, or to the big and magical monsters. That's going to stay in there. Why?

Because when was the last time you read a book, and the solution to the big-ass dragon/monster/BBEG was "throw soldiers at him"?

At low levels, they're job will not be to face down the head honcho of the orc camp, with his 6 levels in Barbarian and pecs bigger than their head; it will be to keep the orcs of your backs while you fight him.

At higher levels, they'll be holding back the demon hordes while you go and kill the damn summoners.

That's what I'm going to have Followers do. They will have your party's back when no-one else will. Heck, I might even just have something where they just become Necropolitans upon death at a certain point.

Loyalty beyond death. Loyalty forever.

3. The Stronghold (which doesn't have to be a building) lets you essentially start running an organization; you'll pick a nice location, get discounts on building structures, improve the productivity of the nearby citizenry, and gradually increase their loyalty to you until they cast off the shackles of their former ruler and put on yours (it'll be a mind-affecting ability or something). And then they are your Cult. And they'll farm, and they'll build, with your watchful eye making sure they won't flag and falter, forever singing your praises.

4. Each of the leader feats will have at least one of their effects be aid the party directly, so they won't be dead weight when their Followers or Cult aren't around. Stuff like expanding the effectiveness of Aid Another, giving out easy feat retraining, and buying stuff at the cheap. Hell, I'll probably just pillage the Marshal's useless corpse and steal auras from it.

[Zireael]

I agree that the followers should not steal the spotlight. Consolidating feats is a good idea.

On the topic of attributes, I'd open the feats to all classes and simply base them off the given class's main attribute. Problem solved!

[Omnicrat]

On the topic of attributes, I'd open the feats to all classes and simply base them off the given class's main attribute. Problem solved!

This is actually a (mostly) good idea. I mean, if you are following a figure for how powerful they are, a very wise cleric should get more followers that a low-wisdom cleric. That said, charisma should probably also play a roll. This does mean certain classes would get the same bonus twice, but it makes sense that those people would be able to attract more people to their cause than others.

[Deepbluediver]

This is actually a (mostly) good idea. I mean, if you are following a figure for how powerful they are, a very wise cleric should get more followers that a low-wisdom cleric. That said, charisma should probably also play a roll. This does mean certain classes would get the same bonus twice, but it makes sense that those people would be able to attract more people to their cause than others.

I don't really feel that it's a problem that Charisma is the only stat that contributes to a leadership score, because frankly, it's the one that makes the most sense. Maybe, MAYBE something like wisdom could also help out, but how do things like Con or Dex make you a better leader? Obviously this inadvertantly penalizes the melee-heavy classes, so I also think that Charisma should only be a small part of the calculation.

Ideally, what really contributes to a leadership is how famous and powerful you are. For example, killing a dragon and stealing it's treasure is noteworthy. Leaping onto the back of a flying dragon from a burning/collapsing tower, stabbing it until it dies, and then riding it's body down to land on top of a group of skeletons that is just about slaughter some innocent NPC's is the sort of thing that makes people tell stories that eventually become legends.

Personally, I think that if you want leadership to attract bands of followers, then your score should be something like level+charisma, plus let you DM increase it some value for every particularly daring or unexpected accomplishments.

[Omnicrat]

I don't really feel that it's a problem that Charisma is the only stat that contributes to a leadership score, because frankly, it's the one that makes the most sense. Maybe, MAYBE something like wisdom could also help out, but how do things like Con or Dex make you a better leader? Obviously this inadvertantly penalizes the melee-heavy classes, so I also think that Charisma should only be a small part of the calculation.

Ideally, what really contributes to a leadership is how famous and powerful you are. For example, killing a dragon and stealing it's treasure is noteworthy. Leaping onto the back of a flying dragon from a burning/collapsing tower, stabbing it until it dies, and then riding it's body down to land on top of a group of skeletons that is just about slaughter some innocent NPC's is the sort of thing that makes people tell stories that eventually become legends.

Personally, I think that if you want leadership to attract bands of followers, then your score should be something like level+charisma, plus let you DM increase it some value for every particularly daring or unexpected accomplishments.

Con or Dex doesn't make you a better leader, but a more attractive one to someone who wants to follow a great archer or barbarian. I mean, charisma doesn't make you a better leader, just a more attractive one. Not that extra followers the more famous you are is a bad idea...

Also

To Amechra: I feel like their should be a feat that upgrades the locals giving fealty to you into they are your blind followers of everything ever. My good philosophy-spreaders are not going to like blind obedience in their followers.

[Deepbluediver]

Con or Dex doesn't make you a better leader, but a more attractive one to someone who wants to follow a great archer or barbarian. I mean, charisma doesn't make you a better leader, just a more attractive one. Not that extra followers the more famous you are is a bad idea...

My point was that being better at what you do (and presumably what qualities you are emphasizing to try and attract followers for) is better represented by your level than by your ability scores.

The charisma figures into things because someone who is friendly, imposing, or good with social interactions (i.e. has a decent charisma score) will probably attract more followers than a person who is rude, crude, or socially brain-dead, even if they are equally capable in a fight. If you where worried about players stacking Charisma to try and cheat the system, then cap it at a value equal to your level (or even 1/2 your level) so that the benefit of being good with your voice doesn't exceed the benefit from slaying dragons or rescuing princesses.

[Omnicrat]

My point was that being better at what you do (and presumably what qualities you are emphasizing to try and attract followers for) is better represented by your level than by your ability scores.

The charisma figures into things because someone who is friendly, imposing, or good with social interactions (i.e. has a decent charisma score) will probably attract more followers than a person who is rude, crude, or socially brain-dead, even if they are equally capable in a fight. If you where worried about players stacking Charisma to try and cheat the system, then cap it at a value equal to your level (or even 1/2 your level) so that the benefit of being good with your voice doesn't exceed the benefit from slaying dragons or rescuing princesses.

Ah. While that is (mostly) true, I still think innate ability should play a role larger than you seem to. Even if alternate ability scores are not used, I definitely do not think there should be any restriction on the charisma bonus to followers.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

My point was that being better at what you do (and presumably what qualities you are emphasizing to try and attract followers for) is better represented by your level than by your ability scores.


Ah. While that is (mostly) true, I still think innate ability should play a role larger than you seem to.

Since the leadership feats are being condensed now, perhaps the formula for Leadership score should be changed from Cha mod + (1/2 * # Leader feats) to something like Cha mod + higher of (level, key ability mod)?

That would mean that being a very strong bandit leader or a very wise mayor is good enough to get an entourage together at low levels, but at higher levels your reputation for being a high-level badass is based more on the deeds that got you to those levels than exactly how nimble or smart you may be. This ensures that SAD classes aren't intrinsically better at Logistics & Dragons than MAD classes are, and it also ensures that non-Cha-based classes can still be competitive leaders at higher levels when the bards, paladins, and sorcerers are getting +7 and +8 Cha mods.

[Amechra]

I might just set it up as the base being Charisma or Half-Level, and then you add your highest other ability score to it.

So you'd get Marshal characters using double Cha, while a Barbarian 20 is going to be using 10+Str mod.

Thoughts?

I'm kinda worried about Charismatic people getting 10+ Followers at 4th level, but then again they are commoners, and that does involve at least one Fighter level...

[Deepbluediver]

I'm kinda worried about Charismatic people getting 10+ Followers at 4th level, but then again they are commoners, and that does involve at least one Fighter level...

Like I said, cap the contribution from Charisma at 1/2 level, that way by the time your character is reaching end-game Charisma is contributing fully (or almost fully), but at low level it does't overwhelm things.

You can even fluff it so that a low-level character is some one who talks a good game, but hasn't really proven themselves yet. All the charisma gets them is people nodding in polite but skeptical agreement at their stories.
"I once caught a fish THIIIIIIIIIIIIS big...but then the line broke and he got away from me!" etc etc etc

[Omnicrat]

I might just set it up as the base being Charisma or Half-Level, and then you add your highest other ability score to it.

So you'd get Marshal characters using double Cha, while a Barbarian 20 is going to be using 10+Str mod.

Thoughts?

I'm kinda worried about Charismatic people getting 10+ Followers at 4th level, but then again they are commoners, and that does involve at least one Fighter level...

Wait, you NEED one level of fighter to take these feats? That doesn't seem right...

Other than that, (if I understand right), charisma + 1/2 level + highest ability + leadership feats - 1 (first leadership feat doesn't count sounds good.

[Deepbluediver]

Other than that, (if I understand right), charisma + 1/2 level + highest ability + leadership feats - 1 (first leadership feat doesn't count sounds good.

I'm not sure if we just aren't in agreement, or if there is a misunderstanding, but I want to be clear about this.

What I meant for calculating the leadership score was level+charisma+whatever, but the bonus from charisma cannot exceed one-half (1/2) your HD. If you don't like that and want to use a different formula, that's fine, I just don't want anyone to think I'm advocating for something that I'm not.

[Amechra]

Wait, you NEED one level of fighter to take these feats? That doesn't seem right...

Other than that, (if I understand right), charisma + 1/2 level + highest ability + leadership feats - 1 (first leadership feat doesn't count sounds good.

Nope, it'll still be a Fighter feat, so you can get it quicker if you have levels in Fighter.

[Omnicrat]

I'm not sure if we just aren't in agreement, or if there is a misunderstanding, but I want to be clear about this.

What I meant for calculating the leadership score was level+charisma+whatever, but the bonus from charisma cannot exceed one-half (1/2) your HD. If you don't like that and want to use a different formula, that's fine, I just don't want anyone to think I'm advocating for something that I'm not.

I understood that was what you were saying. I do not think it should be limited in that way.


Nope, it'll still be a Fighter feat, so you can get it quicker if you have levels in Fighter.

Okay, its just that you said you needed a level of fighter to take it at 4th level, but lots of stuff (gramarie included) give bonus feats at 4th level.

[Amechra]

I actually remembered that other classes get Fighter Bonus Feats by 4th level about 20 minutes ago...

Yeah, sign that it's time for me to go to sleep.

[Amechra]

There are now 6 feats in the first post.

Despite that, if you take the first 5 (the last is an Aberrant feat that helps you turn your Followers weird), your followers are going to be amazing.

Let's take Warrior McExample, the follower of a Fighter with Charisma 20 and a Strength of 20, who is 9th level. He has had Teachings from Above applied to his AC, and his Attack rolls, and has received every other training effect (Charles Atlas Methodologies has been applied twice).

Str 19, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 10
Feats: Power Attack
Base Attack +2, HP 2d8+6+10 (24), F+7 (+11 vs. Poison) / R +3 / W +1 (+5)
Greatsword +11 [2d6+6], AC 20 [Chain Shirt]

Also has immunity to Disease, for when that comes up!

I'm thinking of raising the cap on how often Teachings from Above can be applied to a given follower, because then Warrior McExample would have a nice 2d6+11 damage dealing capability, on top of his other niceness.

Our example Fighter has 10 of these guys, if he so wants. He could also have them be Adepts, giving some nice casting. Or Magewrights, if he feels like being a bit more out there.

I'm still working on how the whole Stronghold/Cult thing will work, but I hope this is a nice start to how Leadership will work (I will write more feats! Who has suggestions?)

[Omnicrat]

Those seem like fine feats to me. Just one (well, two, but only one especially relevant) question: What constitutes combat with ones followers? Could a leader spar in teams with and against his own followers, only dealing non-lethal damage? Could they each kill a chicken? Could they all punch a cow, the leader chops off its head, then they cook and eat it? As is, it looks like could be all of those.

Also, is the stronghold chain going to even use leadership (your feat) or do you not even know that yet?

[Amechra]

I might actually have the Stronghold chain start with a distinct feat, with a later feat joining the chains.

Might not be the best idea (I mean, I could just have it be a feat that you can first get at 9th level.)

Honestly, I think the best way to handle the Stronghold at this point is for the feat to grant you a small keep (I probably am going to slap a note on the first post that you really should be talking with your DM if you're going to be taking these feats), and then it gives you ways to expand it, much like how Training works with Followers.

Maybe call them Construction effects, where you direct the people you rule over to build it in just the right way for it to get benefits (you could order them to build a chapel; however, only if you take the relevant feat (which would give you an actual mechanical benefit for doing so) would it do something other than "be a place where our Cleric can chill and chat with the guy who we appointed as the Deacon.")

As for combat... I can't think of a way to word it where it is readily apparent that the combat has to be what would constitute an encounter (so none of what you describe; it's intended to be a "everyone survived? Sweet, my leadership taught you something this battle (even if it was just how to duck and cover better.)")

Which reminds me; I think I need to make another feat, branching off of Auspicious Aid Another, that lets you Aid Another as an Immediate action, and lets you Aid Another saves (so you can give your followers bonuses on saves; no wizard's taking your uber-buffed Followers!)

So, what do you think would be a good limit on the number of perma - Aid Anothers you can stick on a Follower? My original idea was 3, but I'm thinking that's a bit low...

[Omnicrat]

How will the keep work? Because my plan was for it to be a grove (the mutation) with grown buildings. Can I still do that?

You could just say "every combat encounter the DM deems appropriate" with a note as to what you would deem appropriate if DMing.

I don't see why it can't be unlimited. It take 8 hours or 1 combat to gain the effect each time, so if you want to give an aid another for every skill, save, and attack, you have to put the time in or risk your upgraded followers lives before they are as good as they can get.

[Amechra]

You're right, though I am thinking of adding something to speed it up (perhaps as a part of "keep" thing.)

I'm thinking that the basic effect of the Stronghold feat (or whatever I call it) will give you a castle (or equivalent) as a side effect (think of it less as a "this is the primary benefit of this feat" and more of a "this is where you can stick this feat's benefits.")

Actually, having it designate a location as your "keep" with "build fortifications" as one of the basic Construction actions seems like a good idea...

As for "grove", what are you talking about? I'm kinda confused.

[Omnicrat]

You're right, though I am thinking of adding something to speed it up (perhaps as a part of "keep" thing.)

I'm thinking that the basic effect of the Stronghold feat (or whatever I call it) will give you a castle (or equivalent) as a side effect (think of it less as a "this is the primary benefit of this feat" and more of a "this is where you can stick this feat's benefits.")

Actually, having it designate a location as your "keep" with "build fortifications" as one of the basic Construction actions seems like a good idea...

As for "grove", what are you talking about? I'm kinda confused.

Its an evolutionist mutation.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240717

I can grow permanent structures to whatever specifications I want with this mutation.

[Omnicrat]

Double post, I know, but is this still being worked on?

[Amechra]

Yep; I've just got classes taking up my time.

[Omnicrat]

Yep; I've just got classes taking up my time.

Classes like college or classes like wizard.

[Amechra]

I'm actually majoring in Wizardry, so... a bit of both.

I kid, I kid; it's the first.

[Amechra]

I'm not deaded! I just added Leader of Many to the OP, and will soon be adding more feats (I'm actually going to be taking my Mount feats, and crossing some of them over to this set. I'm still working on the feats for the Strongholds.)

Honestly, I'm probably going to end up basing them off the rules for a business.

[Omnicrat]

Please don't just use the business rules. They are terrible.

[Amechra]

Oh, alright.

I instead used the District "rules" from the DMG web enhancement!

You can now generally make a town awesome. I do think I need some higher level effects stemming off of Community Leader, so if anyone has suggestions...

[Amechra]

I think I accidentally made Lieutenants too strong.

Especially since anyone with a Charisma of 30 is going to be adding +20 to a bunch of things; I don't like the idea of a 10th level Warrior getting a plain, flat +20 to their attack rolls and damage (seriously, I calculated what a Warrior lead by a Fighter with a Charisma of 30 and a Strength of 30 (I assume edge cases, OK), and they end up being able to power-attack for full against a Balor and hit on a 5. With +55 to damage.

It gets nasty, especially since you'll have 10 of them.

Even if you just had them using longbows, they will be plinking away with a 1d8+20 damage per shot, being able to hit the Balor from over 500 feet away, and would be getting 3 attacks in a full attack due to Rapid Shot. That comes out to pretty much 72 damage each, each round. These guys could, if they get the drop on the Balor (which is probable, since they would have a +20 to Spot, at the least, with an assumable +33 if they went for full ranks in the skill, meaning that they are within the same RNG.) And the Balor would have to get to them, since one feat I'm planning on adding will essentially grant Divine Grace plus a great deal of effective HD for the purposes of resisting stuff, meaning that they'll get a few rounds of sniping in.)

Oh, and did I mention that they are going to have an AC in the mid-30s, at the very least? (Full Plate + 20 Morale bonus to AC comes out to an AC of 38. Yes, the Balor is still hitting on a 7. With their first attack. Our guy autohits on their iteratives.)

tl;dr: I may have accidentally made a bunch of 10th level Warriors that could take a Balor out in 4 rounds.

[Omnicrat]

So, are you still working on these or have you moved on? I've got a character for whom either (or both) might be good. If they get DM approval.

[Amechra]

I've been busy...

If you have any ideas, please, share them!

[Omnicrat]

Well, these are more concepts so I hop that's what you wanted.

More abilities that have to do with community building. Maybe something where everyone's alignment has to be with in 1 step of yours to live in a district you've controlled for x time. A more advanced form where they have to agree with your personal philosophy.

A Promote Lieutenants equivalent where certain strongholds get added bonuses.

A version of Make a Man out of You and Expansive training for your strongholds. Maybe have training courses on how to be other classes?

A version of Make a Man out of You based on diplomacy. I mean, the fluff in it right now is really heavy on the drill sergeant side, and its the only way to get adepts or magewrights, which seems very odd to me.

[Amechra]

This isn't dead!

I added a quick little feat: For the Greater Glory!

Basically, anyone within one step of your alignment find your Strongholds to be quite soothing (they add your Charisma modifier to the amount of HP they regain while resting; might have to boost this benefit...)

And if they aren't within that group, they can't rest properly inside your Strongholds. They'll leave soon enough.

[Erik Vale]

I would like to see a feat [probably without the fighter tag] on this tree to allow Arcane/Divine casters to exchange followers levels for adept levels, possibly to a maximum value [that should fit within the power boundries of the feat tree].

Other than that, still looks good for a lower power/op game than I normally play in...
Is it weird that I think this feat tree would be perfect for E6 games?

[Amechra]

You already can do that with Expansive Training.

[Erik Vale]

Oops. Missed that part.
If it weren't for the likelihood of other NPC classes being available in a homebrew game, I would wonder why you said all by aristrocrat.

[Amechra]

I've seen a ton of other homebrew NPC classes, as well as others (such as the Magewright) that were introduced in later sourcebooks.

Thought I'd keep my options open.

[Omnicrat]

YAY! This is back!:smallbiggrin:

So, what feats can we look forward to in the not too distant future?

[Amechra]

Whatever catches my fancy, probably.

I'll at least fill out the ones you wanted.

I'm thinking of having two feats extend off For the Greater Glory; Bastion of Heaven [Exalted], and Dominion of Hell [Vile].

Bastion of Heaven will shift For the Greater Glory so that only Good characters will count as if they were a single alignment step away from you, and will make the community Good-aligned, while Dominion of Hell will do similar.

Both of those will add the option to retrain people into Celestials and Fiends (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115617). Or, more accurately, letting you add the options from the linked templates that match your alignment.

[Omnicrat]

What if I'm Lawfun Neutral and want to make a community dedicated to obeying the rules?

[Amechra]

I actually changed my mind about the above post, and was about to go back and change it.

The replacement idea would be to write 17 feats, each representing one of the Outer Planes of the Great Wheel.

You could take the 3 feats that match your alignment, opening up 3 different templates and making the area heavily aligned to your alignment.

So, for Mr. Lawfun Neutral, you'd be grabbing the Kingdom of Arcadia, Jurisdiction of Mechanus, and Barracks of Acheron feats.

If you were True Neutral, you could take Concordat of the Outlands three times.

To simplify, I'm thinking of a feat that could be taken three times:

First time opens up one part of the template, and mildly aligns the Stronghold on either the Moral or Ethical axis.

Second time opens up another part of the template, upgrades the alignment to Strong, and makes it mildly aligned on the other axis.

The last time opens up the third part that you can access, and upgrades the second alignment step.

In other words, by the time you take the feat the third time, you have three potent "classes" added to your repertoire, and anyone who doesn't share at least one aspect of your alignment takes a -2 penalty to all mental ability score checks/skill checks.

Might have the third feat expand the penalty to physical checks as well; I think it would be appropriate if the very atmosphere of your lawful place made it difficult for those damn Chaotic people to plot their anarchic ways!

Also, For the Greater Glory no longer exists; I replaced it with Unity of Purpose.

"For lo, only by forsaking their depravity could they be taught."

[JKTrickster]

Uh after a certain point, wouldn't it be better to redesign these feats into a class instead of Fighter feats?

Because seriously only Fighters will take all of these feats - most other classes just don't get enough bonus feats to cover enough of the tree.

This is just my two cents but I still like the feats you have!

It's just that in my eye, it really just becomes a ACF for the Fighter - it takes up enough feats that it just completely changes how the Fighter acts and fights for at least the first 10 levels (if not more).

This isn't necessarily a bad thing (most Fighter feats aren't that good and they need better class features anyway) but I just thought you would have more freedom to homebrew if you didn't restrict yourself to feat trees.

[Amechra]

Well, I'm doing it as feats because it really isn't a "class" thing.

Also, one of the houserules I've been favoring recently is doing away with the Fighter, and giving out feats as a function of BAB.

[JKTrickster]

Ah okay that makes sense.

I was just curious why they were all Fighter feats - I mean with so many feats and such a large feat tree, only Fighters are going to be taking advantage of these new feats.

And even when they do, it almost takes up ALL of their feats!

You sure you're okay with that? From a design perspective?

[Amechra]

Well, a lot of classes get Fighter bonus feats; everything ranging from PrCs to ACFs to the effects of spells.

And, from a design standpoint, I don't expect you to grab all the feats. I mean, 3 feats can give you a small force that would be able to last in a fight (if your Charisma was high), especially if you have a Bard or Marshal in your party.

If you go "whole hog", and grab 7 feats, you control an army. I would say that that is pretty worth it.

And, if you are a Fighter, that would only take you until 12th level to grab all of the necessary feats. And the force wouldn't exactly be useless before that point.

But yeah, another thing I was looking at with this is E6; after all, when you have 20 extra feats, having a bunch of feats to take is less daunting.

[JKTrickster]

Okay I rather understand your point!

Either way it wasn't really a complaint - I was just trying to understand the homebrew from your point of the view - the point of view of a designer. That's all! :smallsmile:

Thanks for the enlightening answers!

[Amechra]

I just added Religious Revival, Exemplar Community, Urban Renewal, Ruler of Cities, and Emperor Above All.

I'm considering adding an ability to Emperor Above All that automatically converts a District into a Stronghold each day, as long as you have a Citadel in the same city.

Over the course of a month, you can take control of a city by simply declaring the slums your territory.

Also, I think Urban Renewal is my favorite; turning the estates of nobles into a Red Light District is... amusing.

[Omnicrat]

I love these new feats! Next time I play a gestalt I'm probably going to make one half fighter (or something with lots of bonus feats) to get all the feats!

[Amechra]

Best thing a homebrewer can hear!

[Omnicrat]

I would still like a less drill Sargent, more motivational speaker version of Make A Man Out Of You, but the new feats are just great. I think this is the first batch of feats for this you've made that I didn't have a critique for.