Are you allowed to make trip attempts with whirlwind attack?

[Zedicius]

See title.

I'm sure this question has been asked and answered before, but google is letting me down at the moment.

I'm currently in a discussion about this with a friend of mine. He claims trip attempts and whirlwind attack are both separate actions, so you can't do the whirlwind and trip at the same time.
Though the way I understand it, trip simply replaces a melee attack, so you should be able to make a trip attempt on anything you can attack, even with with a whirlwind.

[Darius Kane]

You are right. Although if you're using a weapon it must be a tripping weapon.

[TuggyNE]

Yes, tripping replaces an ordinary melee attack; it's not a standard action.
These attack forms [in the nearby table, Disarm, Grapple, and Trip] substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity.

[Gotterdammerung]

Yes you can make a trip attempt against everyone in reach when you use whirlwind attack. Attack actions can be subbed out for certain combat maneuvers.

However, it is worth noting that whirlwind attack has special rules regarding bonus attacks granted from other sources.


When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

So whirlwind is not compatible with the bonus attack granted from the improved trip feat, if you were thinking of throwing that combo in the mix.

But sure you can use whirlwind in conjuction with regular old trip combat maneuver.

Sunder as well.

And funny enough grapple as well.

I have seen whirlwind improved grab natural attack builds b4. So funny/silly.

[Fouredged Sword]

Now I need to make a warhulk that sunders everything inside 60ft of him.

With warhulk, would you still get your extra attack? In fact a warhulk could trip everyone around him, so possibly getting an exploding number of attacks from a single trip!

[Xerxus]

You are right. Although if you're using a weapon it must be a tripping weapon.

Depends. I think they released a FAQ i Pathfinder which stated that all weapons can be used to trip, but only trip weapons can be dropped to let the user avoid being tripped themselves.

[J-H]

For non-whirlwind attacks, take the Knockdown feat... any time you do more than 10 damage with a melee attack, you get a free trip attempt.

[Darius Kane]

Depends. I think they released a FAQ i Pathfinder which stated that all weapons can be used to trip, but only trip weapons can be dropped to let the user avoid being tripped themselves.
We're not talking about Pathfinder, though. At least the OP didn't specify, but by what he said I assume it is 3.5.

[Person_Man]

You might want to consider the Knock-Down Feat. It will give you a free Trip attempt (but not an attack) after you damage an enemy. If your DM doesn't allow it for some reason, you should consider the Ritiik exotic weapon (Frostburn), which forces a Reflex Save or knocks the enemy Prone.

Also, I assume you know that Dodge and Mobility are a horrible waste of Feats, and that you should just get the Whirlwind weapon enhancement or take three levels of Binder to get access to it instead.

[Curmudgeon]

You might want to consider the Knock-Down Feat. It will give you a free Trip attempt (but not an attack) after you damage an enemy. If your DM doesn't allow it for some reason ...
The reason would be the explicit rule Gotterdammerung quoted:
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
Trip is in the Special Attacks section of the Combat chapter, and the instructions for how you attempt to trip someone are headed by "Making a Trip Attack". A "Trip attempt (but not an attack)" doesn't exist in the D&D rules, I'm afraid.

[Pechvarry]

I think he was referring to the fact that Knockdown forfeits your bonus attack from Improved Trip.

And uhh, there probably aren't clear rules for it, but shouldn't there be a differentiation between a trip "check" and the trip "action"? i.e. the touch attack->strength check constitutes the action. But if I have a standard action spell that initiates a trip attempt, I'm not also making a melee attack (which is interchangeable with a trip). Likewise, the trip check induced by Knock-Down is an effect which cannot be traded in for damage.

[Gotterdammerung]

I think he was referring to the fact that Knockdown forfeits your bonus attack from Improved Trip.

And uhh, there probably aren't clear rules for it, but shouldn't there be a differentiation between a trip "check" and the trip "action"? i.e. the touch attack->strength check constitutes the action. But if I have a standard action spell that initiates a trip attempt, I'm not also making a melee attack (which is interchangeable with a trip). Likewise, the trip check induced by Knock-Down is an effect which cannot be traded in for damage.

It would have to be looked at on a case by case basis, really. But the knock-down feat would not work with whirlwind.

It says,


Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.

The ritik from frostburn also gives a "trip attack".


Whirlwind again

any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

[Zanthy1]

I assume you know that Dodge and Mobility are a horrible waste of Feats, and that you should just get the Whirlwind weapon enhancement or take three levels of Binder to get access to it instead.

Dodge is hardly a waste of a feat. Getting that additional bonus to AC can often make or break an attack, especially at mid level. Mobility is not super useful, but if you also go for spring attack, then it instantly gets useful. Moving after an attack (spring attack) would give your target an attack of opportunity, and a +4 to AC against that is very very useful. Seeing as to get whirlwind attack (the feat) you need Spring attack, then obviously, the feat progression is not useless.

This is not to say that getting whirlwind weapon enhancement would not be better, because if you do not intend to spring attack around the battlefield, then putting those other 3 feats to good use it totally acceptable. But I push you not to dismiss feats so easily

[Answerer]

Dodge is hardly a waste of a feat.
Yes it is.


Getting that additional bonus to AC can often make or break an attack,
There is a 10% (or less) chance of +2 AC making a difference. For one opponent.


especially at mid level.
And this is even less true, since by mid levels AC quickly drops in value. You'd have a better argument if you were talking only about very-low levels, but even then you'd still be wrong.


Mobility is not super useful, but if you also go for spring attack, then it instantly gets useful.
Spring Attack is an awful feat. I'd love for my opponents to constantly be Spring Attacking: their damage output would be at least halved, and very likely dropped by considerably more than that.


Moving after an attack (spring attack) would give your target an attack of opportunity, and a +4 to AC against that is very very useful.
Not really; it's a significant but extremely niche boost. Not even remotely worth a feat.


Seeing as to get whirlwind attack (the feat) you need Spring attack, then obviously, the feat progression is not useless.
Whirlwind Attack, itself, is god-awful.


This is not to say that getting whirlwind weapon enhancement would not be better, because if you do not intend to spring attack around the battlefield, then putting those other 3 feats to good use it totally acceptable. But I push you not to dismiss feats so easily
I dismiss each one individually as not worth it, and I call taking all of them "killing your ability to contribute to combat."

[strider24seven]

I'd just like to throw in my two cents here with regards to the Whirlwind Attack chain:

Dodge is 100% a waste of a feat unless it is used for qualifying for a good prestige class, such as Telflammar Shadowlord, in which case it is a tax for whatever goodies you are getting. An extra 5% chance for 1 opponent to miss some of the time if you thought ahead and selected him as your dodge target is exceptionally lame.

Mobility is approximately 80% a waste of a feat. Unless of course it is a feat tax. +20% chance for opponents to miss on attacks that you should be trying to avoid anyway. Slightly less lame than Dodge and is actually somewhat useful if your DM is fond of Thicket of Blades.

Spring attack is either a 100% waste or a cute gimmick. Either you are doing 1 lame attack (not a charge- i.e. negligible damage) and moving, discharging a touch spell and moving (why are you a caster and possess Spring Attack?), or you are attacking and diving into the ground/ethereal via Earth Glide/Phase Cloak. Certain builds can make good use of Spring Attack to attack with impunity and retreat to a safe location- others will find it a waste of time.

Whirlwind attack is useful for precisely one class- the Duskblade. Even then it is only moderately useful. Otherwise it is garbage.

Combat Expertise has niche uses- some builds can afford to sacrifice attack bonus and could benefit from +5 AC... and everyone needs more sac outlets, right?

[andromax]

Combat Expertise has niche uses- some builds can afford to sacrifice attack bonus and could benefit from +5 AC... and everyone needs more sac outlets, right?
Paired up with Allied Defense, it can be pretty cool - especially for the party 'tank.'

[JaronK]

Now I need to make a warhulk that sunders everything inside 60ft of him.

With warhulk, would you still get your extra attack? In fact a warhulk could trip everyone around him, so possibly getting an exploding number of attacks from a single trip!

Note that War Hulks explicitly can't trip with their Mighty Swing ability... you have to make a normal attack. However, Shield Charge + Mighty Swing should work, because that gives you an extra free trip added on to the normal attack.

JaronK

[Gotterdammerung]

Note that War Hulks explicitly can't trip with their Mighty Swing ability... you have to make a normal attack. However, Shield Charge + Mighty Swing should work, because that gives you an extra free trip added on to the normal attack.

JaronK

Yes they can. The ability limits them to only performing combat maneuvers on 1 target. But they can still use them on that 1 target.


Great Swing (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a war hulk is able to
make a great, sweeping swing with a melee weapon. As a full-round
action, the war hulk can choose three squares adjacent to one
another (he must threaten all of them). His attack applies to all creatures
in those squares. Make one attack roll and apply that roll as an
attack against each defender. If the war hulk uses a special attack
(such as disarm, trip, or sunder), this special attack affects only the
first target; the other creatures are attacked normally.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Dodge sucks. Desert Wind Dodge is decent, but still subpar, and counts as Dodge.

Mobility UBER sucks, with year-old moldy cheese on top. However, you can get it as a +1 armor enhancement on light armor (thanks, MIC!), so at least the cost part of the cost:benefit analysis is low. Still not as low as the benefit, though you can make Mobility work for you (I like using it for Elusive Target's Cause Overreach tactic). And there are a lot of grey areas for what Mobility should apply to. IMO, it should apply to: standing from prone; moving into a foe's space for grapple/bull rush/overrun; picking up a dropped/disarmed weapon; AoOs provoked from forced movement like bull rush done to you; and more. Unfortunately, I've seen DMs rule against applying it to each of those scenarios before, but I think RAW it should work.

Spring Attack sucks and is a trap feat, in that it really makes you think using it is actually beneficial when it fact it's a self-nerf. That said, reach weapon AoO tripper build w/ Spring Attack and sufficiently stupid and numerous opponents could find some value in using it.

Combat expertise has no good merits, it is pure fail and suck. If you can "attack the ground by stepping on it" as you walk to effectively enter into any surprise rounds or 1st round combats before your first turn with +5 AC (you'd need uncanny dodge, of course), it has some tiny merit as an ablative defense, before you get your turn and actually do useful, offense-oriented things. Good luck getting your DM to allow that, though.

Whirlwind Attack is mostly a bad feat. Horrible pre-reqs and it forces you to spread your attacks rather than focus fire, which is what the game rewards with its critical existence failure and rocket tag elements, not to mention the infrequency of actually fighting a LOT of dudes. It is one of the martial's few means of becoming a human AoE (area of effect), though. I rather enjoyed using it w/ Dervish PrC's dance, to move between each attack and slaughter of lot of mooks (until the DM nerfed the combo because it was "unbalanced" :annoyed:) .

[Xerxus]

Combat expertise has no good merits, it is pure fail and suck. If you can "attack the ground by stepping on it" as you walk to effectively enter into any surprise rounds or 1st round combats before your first turn with +5 AC (you'd need uncanny dodge, of course), it has some tiny merit as an ablative defense, before you get your turn and actually do useful, offense-oriented things. Good luck getting your DM to allow that, though.

Don't know if it is allowed, but I want to plug the ever so useful Stalwart feat from Pathfinder. Improved Stalwart especially. With Combat Expertise this is at it's most efficient.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Those also require Diehard and Endurance. So those, plus Stalwart and Improved Stalwart. Plus Combat Expertise.

That's an awful lot of feats to pay just to fight like a turtle.

[ButtSoup]

I wouldn't say spring attack is 100% useless. If you're taking it for flavor purposes when making a character that literally uses 'hit & run' tactics it's exactly what you're looking for. Like for a scout or a rogue that only goes in for a flank and then gets out...
I feel confident saying it's only 99.9% useless.
Dodge on the other hand truly is useless. Not even flavorful.

[Xerxus]

Those also require Diehard and Endurance. So those, plus Stalwart and Improved Stalwart. Plus Combat Expertise.

That's an awful lot of feats to pay just to fight like a turtle.

Of those only Endurance (and maybe combat expertise) would be an actual feat payment. But for a Stalwart (Dwarven) Defender this would be one of the ultimate feats, as long as you have some way of actually tanking. My idea would be: Use the Dwarven Dorn-Dergar in two hands, get at least one level of armor training from Fighter, then use the two defensive powers that let you halt someone if you hit them with an AoO and makes tumbling much harder. This way you could be sitting there with combat reflexes for 3 AoOs, Weapon Focus and Specialization to hit and deal more damage, reach and a way to get out of reach as a swift action (you'll need it) as well as the capstone: 10 Damage Reduction (plus the extra from Defender).

[shortround]

I wouldn't say spring attack is 100% useless. If you're taking it for flavor purposes when making a character that literally uses 'hit & run' tactics it's exactly what you're looking for. Like for a scout or a rogue that only goes in for a flank and then gets out...
I feel confident saying it's only 99.9% useless.
Dodge on the other hand truly is useless. Not even flavorful.
But then if you're a scout or a rogue, you give up your full-attack and your damage falls off immensely. Also, if you only have 30 feet movement, you're not even moving far away enough to stop them from retaliating with a charge. You're giving up most of your damage so they can charge you. Travel Devotion accomplishes similar things to Spring Attack without the awful prerequisites and actually lets you full-attack.

[Darius Kane]

But then if you're a scout or a rogue, you give up your full-attack and your damage falls off immensely.
Scouts and Rogues have only medium BaB, so it's probable that they hit with only first attack regardless.


Also, if you only have 30 feet movement, you're not even moving far away enough to stop them from retaliating with a charge.
But you can move in and out of cover or behind some other obstacle (like your beefier team-members).


Travel Devotion accomplishes similar things to Spring Attack without the awful prerequisites and actually lets you full-attack.
Yeah, you full attack and eat a full attack in return that round. I wonder who will come out on top in this, the squishy skillmonkey or the enemy who most probably is a tough melee brute.

[ButtSoup]

Darius Kane made most of the arguments I was going to make :smallsmile:

Only thing I would add: I stated spring attack was good for the flavor of hit & run. To get the most out of devotion feats you dip in cleric... doesn't it seem kinda weak that a Rogue would have to dip into a divine class to perform a roguish style of fighting?
Again, this purely from the flavor standpoint.

[Waddacku]

I think he was referring to the fact that Knockdown forfeits your bonus attack from Improved Trip.

It doesn't, actually. Most recent source and all that.

[ericgrau]

Mobility lets you get past reach with high reliability even with mediocre AC optimization. I can see how splatbook feats would be a better use of your feats, but it's hardly worthless. If reach is worth anything and it is common, then countering reach is worth something, though less.

If anything makes it worthless it would be trumping it with better splatbook feats and items.

[Curmudgeon]

I wouldn't say spring attack is 100% useless. If you're taking it for flavor purposes when making a character that literally uses 'hit & run' tactics it's exactly what you're looking for. Like for a scout or a rogue that only goes in for a flank and then gets out...
I feel confident saying it's only 99.9% useless.
Your percentage is too high.

One of the archetypes of the stealthy character is one who's always hiding in the shadows. In fact, the earlier incarnations of D&D gave the Thief (pre-Rogue) the Hide in Shadows skill. In 3.5 D&D a stealthy character needs Hide in Plain Sight — but, for reasons that completely escape me, the Rogue class has no easy access to such an ability. :smallconfused: The most straightforward way to get that is via a 1-level dip into Shadowdancer. The entry cost for that PrC includes Dodge and Mobility. As pointed out, these are sucky feats. So you bite the bullet and choose Dodge (or one of the replacements like Expeditious Dodge). Then you buy Mobility as an armor enhancement. Following your 1-level Shadowdancer dip you select Spring Attack as your next feat. Why? Well, you've already been forced to acquire the prerequisites, so you're amortizing those costs over two returns (Hide in Plain Sight and Spring Attack); that's one reason. The second reason is because the best combat use of Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight is to Hide while attacking, and that comes with a steep (-20) penalty. Against enemies with sucky Spot skills you just stand there and full attack, and Hide while attacking. Against enemies with good Spot skills you can't do that, but Spring Attack will let you move (half of your move action) and Hide with at most a -5 penalty, attack twice (using Snap Kick for your second hit), then move (remainder of your move action) and Hide again.

Yes, it's only a situational benefit, but it still brings Spring Attack down to no more than 94% bad. That's still worse than feats like Two-Weapon Fighting at about 86% useless (no good on surprise rounds, when an enemy drops partway through a full attack, whenever you need to move, most ranged attacks, and all AoOs) and Improved Initiative at 90% useless (benefit is only 20% of the d20 roll it modifies, and then half the time you're going to want to Delay until your flanking partner gets into place).

[ButtSoup]

I'm re-crunching the numbers.
Beep boop beep.
Hmmmm... I'll concede your percentage.

[ericgrau]

Spring attack + hide in plain site is actually in a FAQ example where they give it a -20. It may be implying that if you don't move you can't hide at all, which would make sense because hiding is part of movement. Likewise why would people ever snipe for a -20 if they could just bow full attack for a -20 while remaining hiding? You can however get magic items with up to a +15 bonus to hide and move silently. Most people don't get any skill boosting items and you need custom items to get a spot bonus higher than +5. So we're back at -5 again.

Ninjas can also ghost step and spring attack / shot on the run then hide again without hide in plain sight so if he's alone or in a stealthy group the enemy is clueless. Greater shadow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm)s and a shadowdancer's augmented shadow can likewise go forward by themself, enter a solid object and annoy the piss out of a foe with spring attack + strength damage. By the time the foe starts readying actions, which can't be full attacks btw, he takes 1 hit and leaves for good. If he belongs to a shadowdancer, he heals up and returns for a second go or the party charges in.

See the pattern? You basically have to pull some coordinated trick to make it work. But so much of the build has to revolve around it I dunno why you'd ever use both spring attack and whirlwind attack. Hmm... whirlwind strength damage bomb? 1 feat short... but you could give the shadow a feat granting item like the one for mobility.

[Greenish]

Yeah, you full attack and eat a full attack in return that round.That's why you combine it with Pounce or some other trick.

[Edit]:
Only thing I would add: I stated spring attack was good for the flavor of hit & run. To get the most out of devotion feats you dip in cleric...You don't have to dip cleric to get Devotion feats, though it does get you more uses.


doesn't it seem kinda weak that a Rogue would have to dip into a divine class to perform a roguish style of fighting?Yes. It's still true, though, that you'd be better off with it.


[EditEdit]:

Yes, it's only a situational benefit, but it still brings Spring Attack down to no more than 94% bad. That's still worse than feats like Two-Weapon Fighting at about 86% useless (no good on surprise rounds, when an enemy drops partway through a full attack, whenever you need to move, most ranged attacks, and all AoOs) and Improved Initiative at 90% useless (benefit is only 20% of the d20 roll it modifies, and then half the time you're going to want to Delay until your flanking partner gets into place).TWF has some marginal use outside the context of SA and rogue, namely stuff like Revenant Blade, Dragonsplit EWM, and possibly some martial adepts.

So, say 84% useless. :smalltongue:

[ButtSoup]

Again, flavor focusing here.
Travel devotion is worthless as a 1/day trick. Nightsticks and extra turning feats to get extra uses of a devotion feat are as bad as dipping cleric. But if the DM wants to call it extra spring and spring sticks, have at it. You're still supernaturally moving 30 feet as a swift action, making a single attack, then running out... doesn't feel like you've trained in hit & run so much as magic makes it possible.

[Greenish]

Again, flavor focusing here.Ah, well, I tend to regard flavour as mutable, but each for their own.


Travel devotion is worthless as a 1/day trick. No, it isn't.


Nightsticks and extra turning feats to get extra uses of a devotion feat are as bad as dipping cleric.And don't even work if you don't have turning from somewhere.


You're still supernaturally moving 30 feet as a swift action, making a single attack, then running out... doesn't feel like you've trained in hit & run so much as magic makes it possible.Devotion feats aren't SU but they are SLA, and I have no idea why moving your speed using your normal method of locomotion would feel magic anyway.

And anyway, as I mentioned, Pounce (and probably some other methods) can get you full attack and spring away. Or maybe you use maneuvers and can make do with a standard action.

[ButtSoup]

So your game plan was to take travel devotion as a 1/day deal to make a hit and run rogue?

Also, i should have stated that i didn't mean supernatural in the game term. I mean the concept of taking a move action as a swift action would look supernatural.

[Greenish]

So your game plan was to take travel devotion as a 1/day deal to make a hit and run rogue?No. If I was making a hit and run rogue, I'd dip cleric and barbarian, and probably swordsage for good measure.

1/day Travel Devotion isn't something to base your build on, but neither is it useless.

[ButtSoup]

I think you just want to argue.

[Greenish]

Also, i should have stated that i didn't mean supernatural in the game term. I mean the concept of taking a move action as a swift action would look supernatural.I don't follow.


I think you just want to argue.I like hit-and-run style fighting (not quite as much as I like a more direct inyourface style, but more than ranged or casting). I'm just saying there's more than One Right Way™ to do it.

[ButtSoup]

...never said there was only one right way... which is why im thinking you're nitpicking stuff to argue.

But stepping aside from that, do you really think a devotion feat without the tricks to getting extra uses is worth it? Like travel devotion, and nothing to rack up turn attempts? Please explain.

[Greenish]

But stepping aside from that, do you really think a devotion feat without the tricks to getting extra uses is worth it? Like travel devotion, and nothing to rack up turn attempts? Please explain.That's still one fight where you can move with swift actions. Save it for a boss fight, or for a big bruiser that likes smashing everyone around (like war hulk). Or for when you really, really need to get out of dodge.

[ButtSoup]

I get what it can do... but 1/day kills me. If you arent dipping cleric, it doesnt seem worth a feat to me.

[Darius Kane]

...never said there was only one right way... which is why im thinking you're nitpicking stuff to argue.
So?

BTW, it's 1/day for a full minute.

[Answerer]

But what's the problem with dipping Cleric? It's one of the best dips in the game, and with the whole cleric-of-an-ideal thing, it's dead simply for anyone to take a level. For a rogue, that ideal could be wealth, or even just selfishness/himself, if you like.

[Greenish]

But what's the problem with dipping Cleric? It's one of the best dips in the game, and with the whole cleric-of-an-ideal thing, it's dead simply for anyone to take a level. For a rogue, that ideal could be wealth, or even just selfishness/himself, if you like.Not to mention that more than a few rogues probably follow one deity or another, to some extent.

For example, in Eberron, Kol Korran, the deity of thieves, merchants (practically the same thing, amiright?) and wealth conveniently offers Travel Domain, as does The Traveler, deity of subtlety, deception and careful planning.

[ButtSoup]

I think my argument or point got lost along the way. All i really wanted to say was that spring attack is only.0.01% useful in that you can take it for flavor purposes.

[RFLS]

I think my argument or point got lost along the way. All i really wanted to say was that spring attack is only.0.01% useful in that you can take it for flavor purposes.

And that right there is why I tell my players that Spring Attack does not have prereqs.

[animewatcha]

Well if you have dungeon mag 117 and working 'temple of winding way' into background of your character. Can work the manual of winding way minor artifact into your character history. 3 sections require WIS 18 check ( monks add their class level as untyped bonus ). Get only one shot for each one. First section is +1 perm wisdom. Third section is blindsense. Second section is the kicker though. You gain dodge. If you have Dodge, you get mobility. If you already have both, you get spring attack. If you have all 3, you instead get +2 permanent dexterity bonus.

So, it isn't useless all the time.