Touch of Adamantine

[Yogibear41]

If I wanted to cast this spell(touch of adamantine) on an enemies weapon would I have to make a melee touch attack to do so? In the spells desicription it doesn't really give any details about using it on an opponents weapon it only says target = weapon touched.

(Defense against silver weapons as a lycanthropic character) :smallsmile:

[Alaris]

If I wanted to cast this spell(touch of adamantine) on an enemies weapon would I have to make a melee touch attack to do so? In the spells desicription it doesn't really give any details about using it on an opponents weapon it only says target = weapon touched.

(Defense against silver weapons as a lycanthropic character) :smallsmile:

Umm... I'd say you probably have to make a touch attack against the weapon. If it was allowed at all.

>.> Though since it's an attended weapon, it might get a save.

<.<

The rules are strangely quiet...

[andromax]

I'd say 'Yeah, but it'd get a will save,' cool idea.

[Deepbluediver]

I think that the rules say that if the spell normally allows a save, any items held by an enemy that are targeted use that creature's save. But I'll need to do some research to find out where I'm getting that from; it could be just something that I THOUGHT I read.


For non-rules translations, since you have to touch an enemies weapon, I'd probably houserule it to be the equivalent of an unarmed Disarm attempt.

[strider24seven]

If I wanted to cast this spell(touch of adamantine) on an enemies weapon would I have to make a melee touch attack to do so? In the spells desicription it doesn't really give any details about using it on an opponents weapon it only says target = weapon touched.

(Defense against silver weapons as a lycanthropic character) :smallsmile:

Try reading the spell:


Touch of Adamantine
Transmutation
Level: Cleric 6, Druid 6, Sorc/Wiz 5
Componenents: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Weapon Touched
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (object, harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object, harmless)

In case you don't know how touch spells work:


Touch

You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

[andromax]

I got the impression that he had read the spell.

He asked specifically whether he would have to make a touch attack against a held weapon. It's not as simple as 'Uh yeah heres the rules on touch spells.'

For example if he readied an action to block the sword with his fist, No he wouldn't need to make a touch attack because the sword is already touching his fist, thus discharging the spell.

[strider24seven]

It's not as simple as 'Uh yeah heres the rules on touch spells.'
Umm.... Yes it is? Because that's how touch spells work?


For example if he readied an action to block the sword with his fist, No he wouldn't need to make a touch attack because the sword is already touching his fist, thus discharging the spell.
So he would ready an action to attack the sword if he were attacked?

[jindra34]

You can. I'd probably rule it closer to a sunder than a disarm. But when in doubt remember that you can do pretty much everything you can with a regular weapon with a melee touch attack.

[andromax]

Umm.... Yes it is? Because that's how touch spells work?


So then what is this weapon's ac?

[strider24seven]

So then what is this weapon's ac?
See rules on objects:


Armor Class

Objects are easier to hit than creatures because they usually don’t move, but many are tough enough to shrug off some damage from each blow. An object’s Armor Class is equal to 10 + its size modifier + its Dexterity modifier. An inanimate object has not only a Dexterity of 0 (-5 penalty to AC), but also an additional -2 penalty to its AC. Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon.



General descriptions include notes on activation, random generation, and other material. The AC, hardness, hit points, and break DC are given for typical examples of some magic items. The AC assumes that the item is unattended and includes a -5 penalty for the item’s effective Dexterity of 0. If a creature holds the item, use the creature’s Dexterity modifier in place of the -5 penalty.


Alternatively, if the item is magic, its AC can be included in its description.

Edit: Alternatively to the alternative, use sunder rules and have both characters make opposed attack rolls

[TypoNinja]

You'll probably also provoke an attack of opportunity, since in most cases attempting to attack someone's gear provokes.

[strider24seven]

You'll probably also provoke an attack of opportunity, since in most cases attempting to attack someone's gear provokes.

Only for sunder (without Improved Sunder).
Since you are not making a sunder attempt that is not an issue.

You would provoke if you don't cast defensively if in range of your target.
But since you can hold the charge that is not an issue.

[TypoNinja]

Only for sunder (without Improved Sunder).
Since you are not making a sunder attempt that is not an issue.

You would provoke if you don't cast defensively if in range of your target.
But since you can hold the charge that is not an issue.

Even snatching gear (like ioun stones) provokes, as done tripping, and grappling, and sundering, and bull rush, the pattern is pretty clear, anything other than standard attacks tends to provoke.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Depending on when the spell is cast depends on if an AoO is provoked. If it was cast and then held, it is treated as an 'armed' attack. AKA as if using a weapon, so no AoO. If it was cast within reach, an AoO be provoked for the casting, but the Touch Attack itself wouldn't provoke, see above.

[TypoNinja]

Depending on when the spell is cast depends on if an AoO is provoked. If it was cast and then held, it is treated as an 'armed' attack. AKA as if using a weapon, so no AoO. If it was cast within reach, an AoO be provoked for the casting, but the Touch Attack itself wouldn't provoke, see above.

Its targeting a specific piece of gear that provokes not that its a spell.

Put it another way, you are trying to touch his weapon, he'd like to touch you with his weapon too, or perhaps just lop your hand off at the wrist.

Usually you spend combat trying to avoid contact with the enemies weapon, deliberately going for contact with it, without some special training is just asking for it.

[Deepbluediver]

I originally compared it to an unarmed Disarm attempt, because a logical interpretation of the sequence of events is that you need to grab a wielded weapon long enough to unleash the spell, without getting hurt. It was pointed out that touch-spell attacks are normally treated as if you where using a weapon, but this is not a normal touch attack. You are not targeting a creature, but instead an item they are holding, and a weapon, at that.

It seems like whether you rule it to be more like a Disarm or more like a Sunder, either attempt will provoke an AoO (unless you have the appropriate Improved feat). So a strict reading of the rules would seem to indicate that in a worse case scenario, this tactic would provoke TWO AoO, one for the spell and one for the attempt to apply it.

Obviously the designers probably never considered using a spell like this defensively, so unless there is some additional ruling in the errata somewhere, it may not be explicitely spelled out.

[Yogibear41]

Since there are no specific rules on it I suppose I will follow the rules for a similar spell :

Rusting Grasp
(Player's Handbook v.3.5, p. 273)

Transmutation
Level: Druid 4, Blighter 4,
Components: V, S, DF,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One nonmagical ferrous object (or the volume of the object within 3 ft. of the touched point) or one ferrous creature
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Any iron or iron alloy item you touch becomes instantaneously rusted, pitted, and worthless, effectively destroyed.
If the item is so large that it cannot fit within a 3-foot radius (a large iron door or a wall of iron), a 3-foot-radius volume of the metal is rusted and destroyed.
Magic items made of metal are immune to this spell.
You may employ rusting grasp in combat with a successful melee touch attack.
Rusting grasp used in this way instantaneously destroys 1d6 points of Armor Class gained from metal armor (to the maximum amount of protection the armor offered) through corrosion.
For example, full plate armor (AC +8) could be reduced to +7 or as low as +2 in protection, depending on the die roll.
Weapons in use by an opponent targeted by the spell are more difficult to grasp.
You must succeed on a melee touch attack against the weapon.
A metal weapon that is hit is destroyed.
Note: Striking at an opponent's weapon provokes an attack of opportunity.
Also, you must touch the weapon and not the other way around.
Against a ferrous creature, rusting grasp instantaneously deals 3d6 points of damage +1 per caster level (maximum +15) per successful attack.
The spell lasts for 1 round per level, and you can make one melee touch attack per round.


Would use this spell for all weapons but unforunanetly is does not work on magic weapons :smallfrown: