Make a StP Erudite a god

[Nettlekid]

Psionics just scream with awesome, and there's something kind of mysterious and powerful about them that makes them cooler than traditional spellcasters. Sorcerers and Wizards make a show of their spells, Clerics and Druids are vocal about their beliefs, but a Psion can just sit in a room, without so much as moving a finger, and destroy and rebuild the world around him. So how might you go about making an Epic Psion (or more specifically an Epic Spell-to-Power Erudite, which probably has the potential to be the strongest of all character classes)...a master of the universe? With EVERY spell at his disposal, how best to exert authority and power?

Basically, what do you have do have to have godly power? A StP Erudite can make free True Resurrections for 19 PP and 10 minutes. Using the Soul Crystal power from MoI removes the manifesting time. Any power which requires XP (like Psychic Chirurgery) can be manifested via a Body outside Body clone, which retains all SLA (like Psionics). By Empowering and Augmenting Temporal Acceleration you have minutes to buff whenever you please. You never have to worry about power points, because you can manifest the spell Mental Pinnacle which gives you more power points than it costs. And if you use Delay Death beforehand, you can use Epic Overchannel to double your ML with every power, only to manifest Celerity and Pact of Return just before Delay Death expires.

But all of this just scratches the surface. With the uncountable spells and powers you don't even really need infinite stats or things like that. What can you use to go from "powerful caster" to "demigod" in terms of might? Like, temporal reconstruction for example. Let's say an Elder Evil appears on the Material Plane, unstopped. In a single Temporal Accelerated turn you could write down details of its appearance, and record all the information you need in a Thought Bottle. Body outside Body a few dozen times (clones can make clones, so you get as many as you want in one turn) and have them all make Quintessence to cover the Thought Bottle and take it out of the time stream. Have these clones use Time Regression (with clever uses of clones to remove XP cost) and leapfrog your way back in time. The Quintessence keeps the Thought Bottle from being affected by the Time Regression, so you can get back to like a year earlier and suddenly have all the information you need in your hand.

This just ignores the easier solution of using Teleport Through Time, ignoring material components with Erudite, and sending a clone back to give yourself a message personally (and promptly die, perhaps via Contingency).

So yeah, what are the most literally universe-breaking ways a StP Erudite at Epic Levels can show that he's a god?

[strider24seven]

(Greater) Arcane Fusion

[Nettlekid]

I'm not sure that Arcane Fusion works on a StP Erudite. RAW, it says choose Sorcerer SPELLS that you know. RAI it makes perfect sense to change every use of the word "spell" in the spell's description to "power," but that's not how its written. A similar quandary applies to Contingency and Arcane Spellsurge.

Also, that's still just making this guy a "stronger spellcaster," not a god. Though it does let him be a god more efficiently.

[strider24seven]

I'm not sure that Arcane Fusion works on a StP Erudite. RAW, it says choose Sorcerer SPELLS that you know. RAI it makes perfect sense to change every use of the word "spell" in the spell's description to "power," but that's not how its written. A similar quandary applies to Contingency and Arcane Spellsurge.

Also, that's still just making this guy a "stronger spellcaster," not a god. Though it does let him be a god more efficiently.

If you are looking for an epic god, look no further than Metamind 10+Temporal Reiteration.

[Psyren]

Your biggest hurdle is finding a way to get 9th-level spells as powers, since StP Erudites can't actually do that even post-epic (there's no way to get 10th-level powers, therefore they have no way to learn 9ths.)

One trick is to combine StP with Favored Discipline - since you get two bonus feats at 1st-level, you can trade them both away for ACFs. This combination arguably lets you treat "spells" as your discipline, and Favored lets you learn spells from that discipline all the way up to your max power level (which would be 9.)

From there, the sky is the limit - you get Shapechange, and all the ridiculousness that goes along with it (e.g. Su Wish from Zodars.) As far as becoming a god, you could do so quite literally by manifesting Ice Assassin of an existing deity and simply ignoring the material component, then have your duplicate deity bestow divine ranks upon you.

[strider24seven]

Your biggest hurdle is finding a way to get 9th-level spells as powers, since StP Erudites can't actually do that even post-epic (there's no way to get 10th-level powers, therefore they have no way to learn 9ths.)

Psychic Chirurgery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm) says hi.

[Psyren]

Psychic Chirurgery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm) says hi.

Hi, did you read the part where you have to know the powers to be transferred? So that means finding someone who already has 9th-level spells as powers to give them to you.

[Nettlekid]

Could you.......make a Power Stone of Psychic Chirurgery using Soul Crystal, and if maybe you had the Magic Mantle when making that Power Stone, their spells would count as powers that they could transfer to you using the Psychic Chirurgery they manifest from the Soul Crystal?

[strider24seven]

Hi, did you read the part where you have to know the powers to be transferred? So that means finding someone who already has 9th-level spells as powers to give them to you.

Yes indeed I did. I assumed that you knew you needed a 21st level Erudite with the Epic Manifestation feat and knowledge of the desired spell.

Granted, the whole "can cast a 10th level power" thing is a bit murky, but it flies for most people who are looking for 9ths on their StP Erudites.

Edit: The other option of course is knowstones + magic mantle if necessary.

[Psyren]

Magic Mantle is another way, provided you follow the cheesier reading.

Epic Manifestation.... could work. This is after all a "possible situation where spell level is important," per the Epic Spell rules, and Epic Powers inherit that clause. So you would have to first develop an epic power of some kind, then you would be free to learn 9th-level spells. As an added bonus, 9th-level powers would be open to you as well, including via Expanded Knowledge. (Though of course, you could simply take Epic EK to do this instead.)

[Spuddles]

The most straightforward way to get 10th level powers is using the Mind Mage prestige class. It lets you heighten a power for free a couple times a day.

[Nettlekid]

Hm, would it work for an Erudite to take Expanded Knowledge or Epic Expanded Knowledge, and choose the spells that he can make into powers as a power learned? He could then Psychic Chirurgery that learned power into a Body outside Body clone, have another clone manifest Psychic Reformation on him to unlearn and relearn (Epic) Expanded Knowledge with a new power, and have the clone who he Psychic Chirurgeried use Psychic Chirurgery back on him again, so he now had the first power he learned for real, and can repeat the process for the next one. If he's clever about the swift use of clones (Extending them probably, and using Soul Crystal stones to bypass long manifesting times) then he can probably do it without using ANY XP. Just have one clone Psychic Reform another clone into gaining Expanded Knowledge.

[Psyren]

The most straightforward way to get 10th level powers is using the Mind Mage prestige class. It lets you heighten a power for free a couple times a day.

That uses Dragon material though, so it may not be allowed.


Hm, would it work for an Erudite to take Expanded Knowledge or Epic Expanded Knowledge, and choose the spells that he can make into powers as a power learned? He could then Psychic Chirurgery that learned power into a Body outside Body clone, have another clone manifest Psychic Reformation on him to unlearn and relearn (Epic) Expanded Knowledge with a new power, and have the clone who he Psychic Chirurgeried use Psychic Chirurgery back on him again, so he now had the first power he learned for real, and can repeat the process for the next one.

Keep in mind that by default, transparency may apply to Body Outside Body, preventing your clones from being able to manifest. If they can though, then yes, this trick would work as your clones have all the same feats you do.

[Spuddles]

That uses Dragon material though, so it may not be allowed.



Keep in mind that by default, transparency may apply to Body Outside Body, preventing your clones from being able to manifest. If they can though, then yes, this trick would work as your clones have all the same feats you do.

StP Erudite uses internet material, so it may not be allowed:smallconfused:

[Psyren]

StP Erudite uses internet material, so it may not be allowed:smallconfused:

It's still 1st-party despite being online, though. Which do you see more often here, "no online" or "no Dragon Magazine?"

[Rubik]

I did something similar to this, although I started out as gestalt (with the important bit being the illithid savant levels on the other side, but I'll detail how you can get something similar without gestalting).

You could take a level 20, say, dvati society mind (or use a shaper, or some other non-erudite class) with LA buyoff and some UMD, use that on a scroll of Gate or Ice Assassin (made by someone using Eschew Materials) to grab, say, a young prismatic dragon, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm) which you then manifest Fusion (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fusion.htm) on (via Expanded Knowledge, if necessary). Then manifest Astral Seed (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralSeed.htm) so that, when you kill yourself, you come back gestalted with a 34 HD epic dragon. Note that you ALSO have the Supernatural Transformation [Psionics] feat (from Savage Species), which turns your manifesting into a Su ability AND boosts your ML up to your HD (which is now 34). Plus you get tons of hp and skills and feats. Now store your XP in a thought bottle, give yourself enough negative levels to drop yourself back down to 20, and fail your save against them to make them permanent. Then use the thought bottle to re-level yourself to 34, which you now take as illithid savant and epic illithid savant levels. (Use Metamorphosis to change yourself into a brain-eater to qualify.) Grab the erudite's spell-to-power ability, the erudite's ability to add powers (and spells) to its repertoire, and the metamind's Font of Power ability (using Supernatural Transformation to make it indispellable).

Now you have all the benefits of the erudite class (and infinite power points, via combining FoP with the Temporal Reiteration power) without bothering with those nasty Unique Powers Per Day restrictions.

Now learn Ice Assassin and pull in a hagunemnon (www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm) and Fusion/Astral Seed again (for one of the most powerful abilities in the entire game), before pulling the negative level trick (so that the young dragon's retrained HD AND your original 20 levels are now gestalted with yet another creature's, with the overflow being more epic illithid savant) and AGAIN with a great wyrm prismatic dragon. Now do it once more with an aleax copy of yourself, but this time don't unFusion with it before you kill yourself.

Congrats; you're now level 78. You're partially octa-gestalted (first with four creatures, then with a copy of yourself for eight), and you're utterly invulnerable to anything that isn't you (since you're now an aleax with yourself as your singular enemy, and thus your only weakness).

Now since you have a level of 78, you qualify as an epic character, and can take feats such as Epic Leadership and all the other Leadership-based feats. I managed over 35,000,000 followers this way (though in my case I used a level of thrallherd on the other side of the gestalt, but since it's nearly identical to Leadership, it qualified as a prereq in this particular thought exercise of mine).

So put those followers on a flowing-time demiplane with one of your dvati bodies. Have the multiverse's largest orgies or whatever in your free time. And then when your traveling body needs to, have your flowing-time body research epic spells using your followers' spell slots to mitigate the XP costs to give you an insane Spellcraft/Psicraft score for the purpose. Note that your mind will switch over, and you can basically condense weeks of time into a fraction of a second in your traveling body's time.

Now you can spontaneously research and cast epic spells at will! And you're utterly invulnerable and can get every spell and power in the game (see: Magic Mantle and Extra Spell/Expanded Knowledge + power stones or follower spells/powers known -- and since your erudite level is 0, learning them all doesn't cost you XP). And you have infinite pp.

The only way to make this better is to add divine ranks (easy enough) and to make all your manifestations Ex or Na (which I haven't figured out how to do yet).

[Edit] Note that this is technically doable as soon as you have enough money and UMD to buy and successfully use a scroll of Ice Assassin, Fusion, and Astral Seed, as well as a thought bottle.

[Psyren]

Metaconcert and Soul Crystal also allow you to get around UPD.

"Su Psionics" doesn't actually work by RAW - transparency doesn't apply to feats, therefore that feat can't treat PLAs like SLAs. (And that's before you get into questions like what is considered innate, or whether even if it did work, you would only be able to apply it to one power you know at a time etc.

[Rubik]

Metaconcert and Soul Crystal also allow you to get around UPD.

"Su Psionics" doesn't actually work by RAW - transparency doesn't apply to feats, therefore that feat can't treat PLAs like SLAs. (And that's before you get into questions like what is considered innate, or whether even if it did work, you would only be able to apply it to one power you know at a time etc.Another reason the build has the Magic Mantle.

Also, psionics is explicitly innate, and it's one ability in all the stat blocks -- "Psionics."

At worst, it's mildly murky.

[Wings of Peace]

Do you want Erudite to be the primary caster? Because Erudite/Wizard/Mind Mage with focus on arcane spellcasting can hijinx infinite spells, free metamagic, and plenty of other trickery with infinite spell point abuse?

[Nettlekid]

Yeah, with appropriate use of Temporal Acceleration, Mental Pinnacle, and Soul Crystal, you can have an infinite number of power points, actions, and UPD means nothing to you. As far as that goes, you need no workaround. With the list of powers and spells at your disposal, you don't need much more than that.

In most campaigns I've seen/been in, there's very little magic/psionics transparency. For balance's sake, Dispels and Antimagic Fields work on Psionics (and vice versa), and SR/PR are interchangeable. But otherwise, the two systems are distinct. So things like Supernatural Spell aren't going to fly with this, although I don't really think it needs it. With the godlike power available, it doesn't matter if it can be dispelled since you can reinstate it...well, before it even gets dispelled, if you're good with temporal distortion. And because of this lack of transparency, Body Outside Body allows users to keep Psionics (just like Mental Pinnacle does.)

I still need good ideas for godlike abilities. The use of powers that, if demonstrated before an army, would make that army realize the absolute futility of their actions. For one thing, I really need to find a way to get 9th level spells and powers onto this Erudite. Is there any way to allow a caster user of Psychic Chirurgery to impart spells into the mind of a Psionics user? Or is there a thing for Psionics that acts like Sanctum Spell, which would "technically" allow them to manifest (effectively) 10th level powers and as such be able to learn 9th and lower.

By the way, does there exist the Psionic equivalent of Persistent Spell? Like, +12 PP to make a power last 24 hours? I know one could be homebrewed easily, but I'd be glad to hear of an existing version.

[Silva Stormrage]

By the way, does there exist the Psionic equivalent of Persistent Spell? Like, +12 PP to make a power last 24 hours? I know one could be homebrewed easily, but I'd be glad to hear of an existing version.

Technically there is a 3.0 psionic feat for persist that works. Kinda cheesy as 3.0 had a different psionic system but since it wasn't updated its RAW works right?

http://dndtools.eu/feats/psionics-handbook-30--46/persistent-power--2138/

It has a +8 power point cost.

[Rubik]

Technically there is a 3.0 psionic feat for persist that works. Kinda cheesy as 3.0 had a different psionic system but since it wasn't updated its RAW works right?

http://dndtools.eu/feats/psionics-handbook-30--46/persistent-power--2138/

It has a +8 power point cost.It was updated in the 3.5 version of Hyperconscious. It's technically 3rd party, but it's written by Bruce Cordell. Check the cover of the XPH if you want to see his credentials.

[Nettlekid]

Hmm, so both are slightly iffy, but they do in fact exist, which is good. The Hyperconscious version of Persistent Spell has a pretty strict limitation with the Psionic Focus thing. If you used your Psicrystal's Psionic Focus (granted with Psicrystal Retainment) instead of your own, could you persist many things?

[Psyren]

Well, the Hyperconscious Persist requires you to maintain focus to keep a power going, not expend it. So your psicrystal's focus doesn't actually matter (except insofar as you can use your psicrystal's focus in place of your own while yours is tied up.)

There is a second feat in Hyperconscious though called Permanent Focus. Taking this and applying it to Persistent Power will let you expend your focus as much as you like without losing any of your persisted powers.

[Nettlekid]

Hmm, neat. That's a good way to taking care that you're always buffed. Though, for a StP Erudite they could get away without having powers Persisted if they, at the start of every battle, Celerity, Augmented Temporal Acceleration/Time Stop, and buff in the effective rounds.

A quick question, can Time Stop or Temporal Acceleration be Extended? If you roll a 3 on your Time Stop d4, so it lasts for 4 rounds, if you had a way to Extend the spell could you do so and make time stop for 8 rounds? That would be pretty good.

And I still need more ideas on properly godlike powers. It's more a case of "what should I do" rather than "what can I do," since StP Erudite can do really ANYTHING. I like Mass True Resurrection (BoB clones holding Power Stones of True Resurrection), Fate-Changer (Give a BoB clone information or a weapon, apply a Contingent Slay Living on it so that it dies when it sees your past self, and have it Teleport Through Time to change the course of history with the information/equipment it leaves behind), and things like that. If you haven't noticed, I love Body outside Body. It feels like Naruto. But better.

[Psyren]

A quick question, can Time Stop or Temporal Acceleration be Extended? If you roll a 3 on your Time Stop d4, so it lasts for 4 rounds, if you had a way to Extend the spell could you do so and make time stop for 8 rounds? That would be pretty good.

Yes, you can extend both forms of Time Stop. The only requirement for Extension is that the spell/power in question has a duration other than instantaneous, concentration or permanent.



And I still need more ideas on properly godlike powers. It's more a case of "what should I do" rather than "what can I do," since StP Erudite can do really ANYTHING.

What you should do depends entirely on what you're up against. Certainly the Save Game Trick should be a daily must though, as well as churning out a pile of Soul Crystals with your leftover PP before bedtime.

[Nettlekid]

Hmm, can you put Metapsionically enhanced powers into Soul Crystals? Imagine passing around Persistent buffs to your party members. Make the DMM Persist Cleric totally obsolete.

[Psyren]

Hmm, can you put Metapsionically enhanced powers into Soul Crystals?

Not by RAW (because there's no such power as, say, Extended Inertial Armor - only Inertial Armor.)

But hour-long buffs will use your ML, even the self-only ones, so those are great to pass around. Passing around Greater Metamorphosis or Shapechange crystals will get you Team Solars.

[Nettlekid]

When you say that there's no power such as "Extended Inertial Armor," a thought occurs. Spirit Shaman call down Metamagically enhanced versions of their spells separately from the basic versions. I'm not totally 100% sure how it works, but it's like, if they can call X 4rd level spells and Y 6th level spells per day, they have to use a 4rd level to call down Flame Strike and a 6th level to call down Empowered Flame Strike separately. In that case, would a Spirit Shaman have "Empowered Flame Strike" as a spell known? And if so, might a Geomancer who went in with Spirit Shaman be able to know (and even prepare, with the right feats and stuff) metamagic spells as arcane spells, and thus make that sort of spell applicable to be learned by a StP Erudite?

[Spuddles]

You can't extend a time stop for the same reason you can't persist it.

[Rubik]

You can't extend a time stop for the same reason you can't persist it.AKA, "some people think you shouldn't be able to, with no backing in the rules."

You can persist it, just like you can extend it. It has a duration entry and it isn't instantaneous or permanent, and those are the only restrictions.

[edit] Other than targeting, but they fit those restrictions too.

[Spuddles]

AKA, "some people think you shouldn't be able to, with no backing in the rules."

You can persist it, just like you can extend it. It has a duration entry and it isn't instantaneous or permanent, and those are the only restrictions.

See here for previous discussion:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78521

[Rubik]

See here for previous discussion:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78521I've seen discussions on it before, and the fact remains that both Time Stop and Temporal Acceleration fit the requirements of Extend and Persist.

[Psyren]

See here for previous discussion:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78521

Surely if the counterarguments are valid, you can just repeat them here instead of linking them?

[Rubik]

Surely if the counterarguments are valid, you can just repeat them here instead of linking them?Or he can merely link them rather than derailing the discussion (which will go on for pages upon pages).

[Psyren]

As extended (and persisted) buffs are a significant factor to any caster's power, it is actually relevant to the topic. This goes double for StP Erudites, who can routinely extend Time Stop pre-epic - doing so would only cost them 19 PP (and that's before items, metapower etc.)

Granted, a regular Time Stop is plenty to get on the buffs they would need (particularly with a Schism or similar active), but it's nice to have the option.

[Nettlekid]

Alternatively, instead of Extending or Persisting a Time Stop/Temporal Acceleration, could you just keep manifesting a new one before the old one's duration was up? If you spent 21 PP for a Maximized Time Stop, spent 4 rounds doing whatever you wanted to, and then on the fifth round manifested the same 21 PP Maximized Time Stop, couldn't you just stay in the Time Stop as long as you wanted?
Remember, with Mental Pinnacle refueling PP, there's no worry about efficient use.

Or heck, if you weren't stingy with swift actions you could manifest Temporal Reiteration every round in the Time Stop to make that round not count toward the remaining rounds left in Time Stop. Then standard action Linked Power to fire off one or two powers, and move action to regain Psionic Focus.