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The Giant
2006-11-07, 04:39 AM
New comic is up. Sorry it's a few hours late, my laptop decided to crash as I was saving the completed comic--twice.

Solmage
2006-11-07, 04:47 AM
SOOO Funny! This is perhaps my new favorite oots :)

Claw Swipe!

LostInBrittany
2006-11-07, 04:47 AM
Excellent!!!

Now I can imagine a Star Wars OotS, that would be so great... :)

Anyways, Giant, thanks again for this post-comic-a-day week!!

Delgarde
2006-11-07, 05:02 AM
I'm thinking Miko fits the bill for "stupidity has a place in the progression".

Another wonderful comic. I love Redcloak's retort in the second panel... zero ranks in Knowledge (What The Hell You're Talking About).

Tamis
2006-11-07, 05:02 AM
It's great.
God, I love to hate Miko.
'Cause you know, Redcloak is evil and thus can't have feelings like love and stuff.... And the Order is evil, because they've lied. (except they didn't at the time knew Xykon had survived)
But I'll stop stating the obvious now.

Starwars references are always fun!
The roaches with the lightsabers are cool.:roach:

Neo
2006-11-07, 05:03 AM
Yeah that was great, being caught by the bad guys and finding out they're idiots :D

Piedmon_Sama
2006-11-07, 05:04 AM
"If turned, this one could be a powerful tool.... for the Dark Side...." :D

Comrade Gorby: Page 1 calls are not allowed. Please do not do it again; continuing to do so will result in Infractions.

oogabooga
2006-11-07, 05:04 AM
Everything leads to the Dark Side.

I love the demon roaches with the lightsabers in the last panel...

Heads_or_Tails
2006-11-07, 05:07 AM
Well, y'know I'd have thought that Redcloak would've known that speech a lot better than that.

Secondly will they team up, or just... not? Miko seems to be annoyed enough at the moment to not care who she's talking to.

Why are there two discussion threads for 371? Edit: Oh well, looks like the other one's gone now.

I liked the comic, especially the roaches, but is she missing the force cage in panel 7? Or is that just a view behind the cage?

Pvednes
2006-11-07, 05:07 AM
Hahaha! That was awesome.

Xykon is my favourite baddie.

arscott
2006-11-07, 05:08 AM
Soulless Nihilist dedicated to undoing the universe? Does that make Redcloak a cleric of a philosophy?

Leo_Forestclaw
2006-11-07, 05:09 AM
And to think I just watched Episode III the other day! (I could never follow Yoda's logic train on what leads to the dark side). But E III does contain my favorite contradictory quote from the movies: When Obi-Wan notes "only Sith deal in absolutes!" I can't help but note that observation is, in fact, an absolute.

But Star Wars tangents aside: enjoyed this one heaps! Tho I'm not sure if this means Miko is joining "Team Us" or not...

Bring on the next one, Rich!! Hurry. No, you don't need to sleep, eat, shower or otherwise maintain a "life." More OotS, Now! ;-)

Ragan
2006-11-07, 05:10 AM
This is getting better and better + more updates + my favorite vilan is back YES! . I'm going to wish for more OOTS books for my birthday! (only got the first so far).

I'm chancing my own p1 post on this, I know, but didn't we get a warning about posts would be deleted of they contained the 'page' reference. It seems the posts are begining to appear again. I, for one, would rather they stayed away and left the room for people with sometinh to say.

drkdstryer
2006-11-07, 05:11 AM
Oh how I love Xykon and Redcloak just bantering back and forth : P


but is she missing the force cage in panel 7? Or is that just a view behind the cage?

I saw that, but decided that it would just be weird looking to have the forcefield when the perspective is in that close. I mean, the proportions are a little wrong to be actually looking in from the inside, but I can deal with a little inconsistency so that the comic looks better.

Castamir
2006-11-07, 05:12 AM
There's a problem, though.

Our favourite outsider -- and the only evil outsider around -- is quite a bit of distance away, and she would be needed about right now.

nagora
2006-11-07, 05:13 AM
Miko is not one to talk about stupidity. This is going to be a real mess now.

Solmage
2006-11-07, 05:13 AM
Oh come on now, I know you hate Miko, but she has never acted stupid, naive yes, but not stupid. She always took her fighting very seriously, unlike Xykon who thoroughly underestimated OOTS and it was through his crap that they even had a shot.

phobiandarkmoon
2006-11-07, 05:14 AM
Hmm. Miko, once again, completely misinterprets her own situation - looks like we have Blackguard potential again here...

Nu
2006-11-07, 05:15 AM
Damn, Miko is really quick in jumping to conclusions. Even if they for some reason didn't slay Xykon directly, they could've assumed he was destroyed when the castle blew up. Roy also had the lich's crown as a trophy, a fact that was carefully pointed out to Miko, although I supposed the paladin could assume he merely stole it.

Still, awfully hasty of her. Miko must really, REALLY dislike the Order of the Stick.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-11-07, 05:15 AM
Soulless Nihilist dedicated to undoing the universe? Does that make Redcloak a cleric of a philosophy?

Nope. Just that Miko does not, in fact, know what the hell she's talking about.

Aidan305
2006-11-07, 05:16 AM
I was wondering when Miko would find that out. Now all she needs is the whole story.

Going down, next floor Evil Gods, Foul Abominations, and Fallen Paladins.

Edit:
Loved the roaches with light-sabres. Where do they come up with this stuff.

Also note the title - Anyone else think this may have something to do with Miko falling?

Leo_Forestclaw
2006-11-07, 05:17 AM
Oh, just re-read the strip: any reason Miko's not behind a Forcecage in Panel 7? Or am I a victim of the ultra-close up?

Dene
2006-11-07, 05:18 AM
I like the Star Wars refernece, I always thought the whole "fear leads to anger" speach thingy was silly if you consider that when Luke Skywalker says he's not afraid Yoda just says "You will be" so it's nice to see it being mangled by Xylon and Co.

The Giant
2006-11-07, 05:19 AM
Oh, just re-read the strip: any reason Miko's not behind a Forcecage in Panel 7? Or am I a victim of the ultra-close up?

See aforementioned, "laptop crashing while I went to save it--twice". I simply forgot to add it back when I redrew the strip the third time. Fixed now.

Pvednes
2006-11-07, 05:22 AM
So, not only did Elan recognise Miko's true nature, the bad guys do too!

Max_Sinister
2006-11-07, 05:23 AM
Wow... another strip? Thx Giant!

And just when you think it can't become cooler... look at the roaches in the last panel...

Grim Greyscale
2006-11-07, 05:25 AM
<_<

Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate, Hate is connected to the wishbone...

warmachine
2006-11-07, 05:26 AM
How could Redcloak heal himself if he was unconscious? How can he heal himself with with his own magic if, as an evil cleric, he can't cast cure spells?

Meh! If rule violation is good enough for Thor, then it's good enough for Redcloak.

Azukar
2006-11-07, 05:28 AM
Well yep, I admit my knowledge of D&D-related material is practically nil, but Miko The Blackguard (or whatever the class is called) is looking more and more likely. Are Blackguards more powerful than Paladins?

J.Gellert
2006-11-07, 05:29 AM
I can't decide who rocks the most, Xykon or Redcloak.

And I like where this is going...

The_Weirdo
2006-11-07, 05:35 AM
I think a blackguard Miko scenario is getting more and more likely. Let's face it: Miko doesn't care about justice, she cares about doing what she FEELS LIKE, and THEN justify it "somehow".

:vaarsuvius:

Dispozition
2006-11-07, 05:37 AM
That...Was...The best comic you've done so far Rich...I'm in awe...

And demon roaches with lightsabers is always cool :biggrin:

Ikkitosen
2006-11-07, 05:49 AM
And I didn't think I could hate :miko: any more than I already did. Good work!

Caelestion
2006-11-07, 05:49 AM
Outstanding. I love it! :) One of my favourites and I don't have many *g*

Movoza
2006-11-07, 05:53 AM
waiting for tomorrow...
nice comic, but a bit overdone in my liking

Woolysock
2006-11-07, 05:53 AM
How could Redcloak heal himself if he was unconscious? How can he heal himself with with his own magic if, as an evil cleric, he can't cast cure spells?

Meh! If rule violation is good enough for Thor, then it's good enough for Redcloak.

Maybe :mitd: bandaged him, giving him the boost he needed to become conscious and heal himself. He was waving that red hand thingy around...

Oooh, I'm tempted to post the thing that should not be posted, but I guess I'll resist.

I dunno, the Star Wars references seemed a little forced to me, and also been done SO MANY TIMES

Piedmon_Sama
2006-11-07, 05:54 AM
Well yep, I admit my knowledge of D&D-related material is practically nil, but Miko The Blackguard (or whatever the class is called) is looking more and more likely. Are Blackguards more powerful than Paladins?

Not exactly. Paladins are a "base class"--meaning you begin your career as a level 1 Paladin. Blackguards are a Prestige Class, which means you have to have a certain level requirement met before you can become one. So technically there is no such thing as a "pure Blackguard." Rather there are "Fighter/Blackguards," "Knight/Blackguards," and most especially, "Ex-Paladin/Blackguards." Blackguards who were formerly Paladins are generally more powerful than any other type of Blackguard, making it the true "Anti-Paladin" class.

faerwain
2006-11-07, 05:58 AM
Holy ninja comics, Giant-man!

You just go to the bathroom, and there the strip sneaks up. Not that I'm complaining.:smallsmile:

Maybe it's the urge to disagree with the public, but I still have a little doubts about the blackguard thing... chances of her going over to the dark side would've been better if Xykon had NOT tried his speech..but of course also less funny. Redcloak get's cooler more and more, but despites roaches with lightsabers I laughed somehow the most about Xykons non-existant respect (or even interest) for the order.. :xykon: "Who? Oh, Bluepommel and his buddies. "
Poor Roy, it was hard enough for him to face Xykons disregard for Eugene and the bloodoath, but one should have thought Roy's encounter was a little more impressive...

battleburn
2006-11-07, 05:59 AM
Those :roach::roach: with the lightsabers are awesome.
Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.
That's the path to the darkside.

It is fairly obvious now, what the mentioning of the cloak meant. Was Rich seeing the forums and thought to elaborate on this, or was it his plan all along.
Stay tuned, for the next episode of 'OotS'

-Battleburn

Neo
2006-11-07, 06:04 AM
The irony here is that Miko isn't being evil. I was just reading some Forgotten Realms stuff and the followers of Tyr(God of Justice) praise the destruction of evil, not really caring too much about the means.

Castamir
2006-11-07, 06:05 AM
How could Redcloak heal himself if he was unconscious? How can he heal himself with with his own magic if, as an evil cleric, he can't cast cure spells?

Meh! If rule violation is good enough for Thor, then it's good enough for Redcloak.
For the first question, it is safe to assume that the CitD, albeit stupid, has at least enough clue to bandage his allies. At least I don't doubt even Thog would fail to do that.

For the second question, evil clerics can cast healing spells, they just need to memorize them instead of getting free conversion like good clerics do.

5tephen
2006-11-07, 06:18 AM
Yay for daily comics!
Miko will not turn Blackguard- she will just end up being released by Xykon, in order to aid and abet him. She will still be doing it to (in her eyes) to serve the cause of Law & Good.

What people who complain about Miko forget is that she is not one of the protagonists in this story. She is an Antagonist. Now, that doesn't mean that she's a bad guy. Just that she opposes the OOTS.

Specifically, Miko's role is to annoy and frustrate the reader. To make them rage at her one-eyedness.

Azukar
2006-11-07, 06:23 AM
Not exactly. Paladins are a "base class"--meaning you begin your career as a level 1 Paladin. Blackguards are a Prestige Class, which means you have to have a certain level requirement met before you can become one. So technically there is no such thing as a "pure Blackguard." Rather there are "Fighter/Blackguards," "Knight/Blackguards," and most especially, "Ex-Paladin/Blackguards." Blackguards who were formerly Paladins are generally more powerful than any other type of Blackguard, making it the true "Anti-Paladin" class.

Cheers Peidmon :) But Miko is a pretty high level obviously - she can kick the butt of the entire OotS team over and over after all :S
They sound like a pretty colourful (no pun intended) character class to play - the backstory of how they came to lose their Paladinhood, their journey to the Dark Side if you will... If I ever seriously played D&D, and could stand to play a Paladin for long enough, I'd make them Blackknightify for sure!

CockroachTeaParty
2006-11-07, 06:24 AM
Again, curiosity asks the question: what does Xykon plan to do with Miko? Must... find... out!

I can see Xykon now, speaking to Roy as he hides in the shadows:
Xykon :"Sister... you have a sister...? If you will not join me, then perhaps she will..."

Roy: "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

Death, your friend the Reaper
2006-11-07, 06:35 AM
Why is it always only the cockroaches who can see the potential in lightsabres? If only Xykon could to harness there power....

*Death gives Rich a few more hours to live thanks to the funny comic.*

Zeb The Troll
2006-11-07, 06:40 AM
Heh, I loved this one. Especially the Knowledge (What the hell you're talking about) line.

One minor grammatical nitpick though...

:redcloak:"However, it is up to Lord Xykon, not I, as to whether or not we execute you."

Should be "not me" because in this case the pronoun is the object of the prepostion "to". You would say "It's not up to me," never "It's not up to I."

Also, for those of you who insist on spelling it Xylon or Xyklon, note the spelling of the lich's name.

DarkLightDragon
2006-11-07, 06:42 AM
This is even better than the last comic! Xykon had me laughing again at the second last panel-look at his eyes!
And I LOVED those 2 :roach: with the lightsabers!

The speech was funny as well :smallbiggrin:

Alfryd
2006-11-07, 06:44 AM
New comic is up.
Although cold terror clutches my bowels like an iron vice, that was damn good.


I'm thinking Miko fits the bill for "stupidity has a place in the progression".
I'll take her comment as a slight good sign.

Our favourite outsider -- and the only evil outsider around -- is quite a bit of distance away, and she would be needed about right now.
Xykon summons a demon.
Xykon: "Hey, you wanna make peaceful contact?"
Demon: "No, actually, I was doing something important."
Xykon: "Allow me to rephrase myself." casts Cone of Cold toward demon
"You wanna make peaceful contact?"
Demon: "Sure."
Xykon:"Demon, Miko, Miko, Demon."
Miko: "Hey."


Still, awfully hasty of her. Miko must really, REALLY dislike the Order of the Stick.
I think that's a given.

Also note the title - Anyone else think this may have something to do with Miko falling?
NO! Really! My Gods, how did you get that impression?

soozenw
2006-11-07, 06:54 AM
if you didn't already have a fan for life in my boyfriend, the star wars references will hook him.

roaches with lightsaber FTW!:roach:

Ragnarokpc
2006-11-07, 06:55 AM
I liked the strip a lot . . . And I like what Rich is showing us about what a Paladin can really be like . . . she's so hateful! But I do think that will be her downfall. I thought for a moment that Xykon was going to let slip the whole story of what happened with the OOtS and him, but didn't . . . we all know he's not that dumb.

I so don't look forward to Miko and the Order meeting again . . .

Good work, thanks for all of the comics lately!

Lord Zentei
2006-11-07, 07:05 AM
I'm thinking Miko fits the bill for "stupidity has a place in the progression".

Nah, more like pigheadedness.


As for what's going on I'll say it again: she is an ANtagonist. As such, it is her destiny to be in opposition to the heroes. And, ultimately, to either meet her death at the hands of one of them or to see the error of her ways and be redeemed. Possibly with some heroic last minute self sacrifice in the latter case. It's all part of her tragic pathos, along with being orphaned at a young age, raised in a monastery and dedicating her life to fighting the very forces that got her there, yet ironically ending up in bad company. As to whether she "falls" all the way, I guess we'll find out.

Not that any this detracts from the character in any way, far from it. Actually, she reminds me somewhat of Anakin Skywalker - and isn't that appropriate with all the Star Wars references in today's comic - powerful, obstinate, not inherently evil, but at risk of going darkside, and of course, way cool.

Nazzo, the 102nd
2006-11-07, 07:12 AM
Loved the line from Redcloak. "Wow, our mystic senses are perfectly attuned to what she JUST said out loud." Heh!

I'm starting to speculate on the Oracle's prediction about Belkar... :smallbiggrin:

Fillbert
2006-11-07, 07:17 AM
It's all so clear now.... Belkar pushing her to the edge, and no Xykon comes by and gives her that last little shove......

Ronald_saveloy
2006-11-07, 07:17 AM
I like the whole comic strip. Not because of the art, as the stick figures are drawn rather poorly. But for the backgroundstory and the character development. And now, we even get character development for named NPCs, wich really rocks!

Looking forward to the next strip.

BTW: Could you make the lightsaber roaches into an emoticon for the forum. They rock too!

Grunjon
2006-11-07, 07:24 AM
"But beware. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

The road to, er, HECK is paved with good intentions. Miko thinks she's acting in the best interest, but then again most real-life "bad guys" also believe they are completely in the right. Relatively few evil-doers decidely set out to commit evil like Xykon does.

And she's already fallen so far. Miko's got anger, as she herself stated, and gobs of aggression, and yes, though she would not admit it (being such a Paladin), she has fear as well.

The comic was VERY good, Rich, and all the Star Wars references were terrif. The c°ckroaches with the lightsabers were good, and "backstoryiffic!" was even better. CitD got in a funny line, too. Aces!

Blood
2006-11-07, 07:26 AM
I sense a lightsaber battle coming up soon!

StickMan
2006-11-07, 07:29 AM
I don't see Miko going Blackguard on us. One too predictable. Two that stick up her butt seems to shoved very far up there. But then agin I could see her turning evil on her own, not with the lich, then after losing her powers look for a way to take vengance on the order and then becoming a blackguard. But I don't think Xykon can just turn her.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-07, 07:30 AM
"But beware. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

The road to, er, HECK is paved with good intentions. Miko thinks she's acting in the best interest, but then again most real-life "bad guys" also believe they are completely in the right. Relatively few evil-doers decidely set out to commit evil like Xykon does.

And she's already fallen so far. Miko's got anger, as she herself stated, and gobs of aggression, and yes, though she would not admit it (being such a Paladin), she has fear as well.

That's not all: there is still a potentially devastating trump card that Xykon could use if he finds out about it: Lord Shojo.

Shojo has been deceiving the Sapphire Guard with the "being of pure law and good" business, and with the secret missions he is sending the OOTS on. How will Miko react to that if she finds out? Her own lord not playing it straight?


The comic was VERY good, Rich, and all the Star Wars references were terrif. The c°ckroaches with the lightsabers were good, and "backstoryiffic!" was even better. CitD got in a funny line, too. Aces!

And he's doing ONE PER DAY? Seriously, how is this possible? He must have invested in a truckload of Time Stop scrolls.:smallbiggrin:

_JM_
2006-11-07, 07:30 AM
"Souless Nihlist who seeks to undo creation" ...Hmm. Releasing the Snarl would do that, it did it before. Didn't someone suggest before that Redcloak might be the High Priest of a religeon that worshipped the Snarl?

(At least we finally had the link between the Redcloak being killed in Soon's crusade to purge the knowledge of the Snarl / gates and those who knew and our favourite Redcloak)

As has been said Miko seems to have missed the fact that Roy has Xykons crown...and also that Redcloak recognises the name and Xykon sort of recognises the name...and so had fought Xykon to such a state that he had been able to take that crown.

But why ascribe to an honest mistake, or stupidity, what can be ascribed to malice and so fits your own poor impression of the OOTS? :smallsmile:

Swashbuckler
2006-11-07, 07:32 AM
Much humor in this strip! :biggrin: But I'm thoroughly diggin' where this plotline is going. I'm going to cast my 'guess' in the same direction as others ...

Blackguard Miko ... or maybe even Death Knight Miko, ala Lord Soth?

ah, the mind ponders the possibilities!

Leo_Forestclaw
2006-11-07, 07:37 AM
See aforementioned, "laptop crashing while I went to save it--twice". I simply forgot to add it back when I redrew the strip the third time. Fixed now.

Pixelicious!

Wait - if memory serves, don't you use a Mac? I may be among the few, but in the two odd years I've been using OS X I haven't been able to crash it once. Stalled, yes. Beach ball of death, yes; crash: no.

I'm impressed. Or you do some vile things to your 'puter.

Shatteredtower
2006-11-07, 07:39 AM
No, no, no.

Fear leads to Belkar! Belkar leads to suffering! Suffering leads to more creative uses of kobold heads.

Why do people keep forgetting this?

I'm really not sure what to make of the title. Miko doesn't have good intentions and this is the wrong road for that anyway. If intentions do figure into it, they're Xykon's, which suggests -- well, no, with Xykon involved, it guarantees -- more chaos.

I find the interaction between Redcloak and Blueshawl fascinating. There's just something about law enforcement officers who won't let the facts get in their way. I am curious about how many times the goblins and the Sapphire Guard have faced each other since Soon's original crusade. Either Redcloak is older than he looks, this conflict has been an ongoing event, or... there's another option.

I never cared for the roaches, personally, but I usually just ignore them.

Tormsskull
2006-11-07, 07:49 AM
rofl. The roaches dueling with lightsabers had me laughing very loud and hard. Good comic.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-07, 07:53 AM
Pixelicious!

Wait - if memory serves, don't you use a Mac? I may be among the few, but in the two odd years I've been using OS X I haven't been able to crash it once. Stalled, yes. Beach ball of death, yes; crash: no.

I'm impressed. Or you do some vile things to your 'puter.

Or - he just Crashes Different (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7148748849652085555&q=Nintendo+Oldschool+Revolution).:smallbiggrin:

Tharidra
2006-11-07, 07:57 AM
Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.
That's the path to the darkside.

You beat me to the perfection of the line! :smallfurious: J/K. At least I'm not the only one who knows what it's really supposed to be!

-The Newbie

Mr_Shrubber
2006-11-07, 07:59 AM
Oh ye freakin' gods. Love the Star Wars references.

Also,:xykon: needs to get the A material out double-quick, if he doesn't want :redcloak: to overtake him as the second bestest ever villain. :redcloak: is getting way sarcastic.

(The bestest ever villain being :thog:, obviously. Me love :thog:!)

Coffee_Dragon
2006-11-07, 08:00 AM
Let's face it: Miko doesn't care about justice, she cares about doing what she FEELS LIKE, and THEN justify it "somehow".

Let's face it: you're making things up in your head.


And she's already fallen so far. Miko's got anger, as she herself stated, and gobs of aggression, and yes, though she would not admit it (being such a Paladin), she has fear as well.

"Fallen so far"? Sigh. First of all, falling as a paladin and falling as a Jedi are two different things. The whole thing about Jedi makes no sense, but thankfully Miko's not involved with that at all. She's a human being with emotions. Anger actually doesn't lead to alignment changes nor some form of self-hypnotism. It's George Lucas who's been trying to tell you that.

Of course, when it comes to Miko people don't want to see a person, they're seeing fragments of class and alignment descriptions and fitting everything to their own personal aggravations. "OMG! Miko frowned at that shrubbery! She must be teeming with hatred! I'm sure Rich is telling us she's going to fall! In my game she'd have fallen long ago! Now let's get back to Roy doing pompous monologues and being sarcastic and picking on Elan; it's so great that Rich shows us you can be cool and not hemmed in by your alignment!"

Oh well, this isn't going to change. And I have a feeling I've said this before.

Dumbledore lives
2006-11-07, 08:04 AM
GO :mitd:

What is whith :xykon: and his stupid little jokes?
Awesome comic especially at the last panel with the light saber dueling :roach:s

Haarculaneaum
2006-11-07, 08:06 AM
YEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
EVIL EVIL :miko:!
EVIL EVIL :miko:!

<does the dance of joy>

WOO HOO!

Also, I enjoyed the banter, Star Wars references, and Redcloak's acknowledgement of being less-than-happy about serving Psyzckahn (come on, people, it's spelled right there for you -- it's XYKON).

Haar

Pegasos989
2006-11-07, 08:08 AM
I like the Star Wars refernece, I always thought the whole "fear leads to anger" speach thingy was silly if you consider that when Luke Skywalker says he's not afraid Yoda just says "You will be" so it's nice to see it being mangled by Xylon and Co.

Ah, I see that the force is not with you.

You see, Luke was not afraid but yoda knew that he would be. So, as the first thing he teaches luke to win and face his fears in that cave.

charik
2006-11-07, 08:25 AM
Excellent!
Not just a StarWars spoof, but a spoof of StarWars fans misquoting lines!

And loved the demon roach lightsaber fight at the end.

sklar dansig
2006-11-07, 08:28 AM
awesome comic, Xykie, Red and CitD never get old

im thinking however, maybe Miko is not angry because the Order lied about Xykon, maybe she figures that they lied about the whole redmountain incident, thus making them agents of destruction, or Xykon allies or something

B9anders
2006-11-07, 08:29 AM
Great stuff. Xykon remains el numero uno in my eyes, but Redcloak's character development just gets better with every strip.

The pair of them is just the best villain team ever. If they were NPCs in my campaign I would never allow them to be killed by the PCs.

The Star Wars references were maybe a bit too obvious, but I love the plotline. Xykon is just a seriously evil badass.

It will be tragic if it is Xykon and not Belkar who manages to decisively swing her to the other side though.

Also, do I sense a minor tangent referencing 'who is the king of somewhere' in panel #10 from :mitd: & :redcloak:

CGM3
2006-11-07, 08:31 AM
I really don't see Miko as joining forces with Xykon; in her world view, the lich is quintessentially evil, and she is a paladin opposed to such things. Rather, I think Xykon will give her the idea that he and the OOTS are actually allies, a concept she'll seize upon because it justifies her opinion of Our Heroes; then the lich will arrange for her to "escape" so she can set out to righteously foil the OOTS' nefarious scheme. That's the sort of masterminded villainy worthy of Xykon.

I don't hate Miko, or even dislike her; I feel sorry for her. She's convinced that her perspective of the world is the absolute and incontrivertible truth, all black and white with no shades of grey; remember, even her fellow paladins of the Sapphire Guard are uncomfortable with her strict interpretation of Good and Evil (all those missions "away from here"). If she falls, it won't be because some villain tricks her into it, it'll be because her rigid sense of duty (possibly driven by her "righteous" anger) leads her to an evil act.

And on a slightly different topic, does anyone else see poor Redcloak as the Bob Newhart of the OOTS world, the "last sane guy in a world of weird"? I almost expect a trio of bumpkin goblin brothers named Larry, Darryl and Darryl to show up one day. :smallsmile:

thecommodore6
2006-11-07, 08:33 AM
YAY StarWars reference!
I especially like how the roaches are dueling with lightsabers in the last panel.

Oh and Redcloak's "Knowledge (What the Hell You are Talking About)" line.

Haarculaneaum
2006-11-07, 08:36 AM
The Roaches need to be named Larry, Darryl, and Darryl from now on.
The Bob Newhart observation is flawless victory.

Haar

YAY FOR EVIL :miko:!

Lord Zentei
2006-11-07, 08:41 AM
The Roaches need to be named Larry, Darryl, and Darryl from now on.
The Bob Newhart observation is flawless victory.

Haar

YAY FOR EVIL :miko:!

Heh, you actually like her better as evil than ostensibly good? :smallamused:

(though she has yet to go out and out evil)

Logos7
2006-11-07, 08:58 AM
Hey,

First of all, Intentionally smiting people who have been pardoned and are in fact not evil ( even belkar because he is doign his time for his crime) , isn't lawful good

Secondly, Associating with Evil, which is what she's a hairbreath from doing now, isn't lawful good ( and is noted in the class discription)

Xykon's gonna have to swig this a bit, if he wants her to keep her status, but thats been said before

Great Job, I loved this comic.
Logos7

Yorkiebar
2006-11-07, 09:06 AM
Duh, Miko! EVERYONE knows that evil liches never go away the first time you kill them. Fact of life. Or a fact of undeath, anyway.

Also, LOL at "In the flesh! Except, you know, not."

TinSoldier
2006-11-07, 09:11 AM
Hmm. I don't like where this is going...

I really enjoyed the talk between Miko and Redcloak, especially since I am also a fan of the Goblins webcomic and that kind of moral amibiguity stuff can be pretty cool.

However, if Miko goes to the darkside that will really ruin the character for me :smallfrown: . Instead of an antagonist that I love she will become a villain that I hate because she is nowhere near as good of a villain as either Redcloak or Xykon. Or even Nale.

Oh, well. Plotwise I guess it makes sense but...

Haven't had time to read the rest of the message board yet.

Wrecan
2006-11-07, 09:16 AM
Our favourite outsider -- and the only evil outsider around -- is quite a bit of distance away, and she would be needed about right now.
The demonic cockroahes could conceivably be outsiders (although they are probably magical beasts). The Monster in the Darkness might also be an evil outsider, for all we know.

Bilbo27
2006-11-07, 09:17 AM
Any comic, no matter what the scenario, that relates to Star Wars, is an A++++ comic in my book. Keep those tangents coming Xykon!! Love ya buddy. You are already at the dark side Miko!! Feel the dark side, let anger take over!!

Leatherman
2006-11-07, 09:25 AM
"I'm guessing stupidity has some place in that progression" - Miko

LMAO

This one made me laugh more than any in a long time. Hats off Giant.


The dueling Demon roaches were absolutly PRICELESS!

Haarculaneaum
2006-11-07, 09:27 AM
Dear Lord Zenu,
Yes, I like :miko: as evil. I had originally typed "much better" but I don't like her at all as good. Though I'm fascinated by "good" antagonists, I have argued that Miko is a mass-murdering crazy-head who ACTS evil, whether or not she IS evil. But that's a whole nudder ball of wax.

Haar
Blackguard+Intelligent Undead+:miko: = JOY

TinSoldier
2006-11-07, 09:27 AM
"OMG! Miko frowned at that shrubbery! She must be teeming with hatred!"That is so sigged!

Raimun
2006-11-07, 09:29 AM
:xykon: "That's me, in the flesh! Except, you know, not."

Got to remember that. :)

Dabble
2006-11-07, 09:30 AM
Great Comic,

Has the potential to lead into so many things... can't wait to see what twisted paths this will take us down.

Oh, and Demon roaches with lightsabers?? Priceless.

chibibar
2006-11-07, 09:32 AM
Heh... Miko clearly knows NOTHING about the undead it seems.. she just seem to be a "kill all evils and never ask questions later"

The higher end of undead - Liches, Vampire Lord and such is a bit hard to get rid off unless you really know your stuff :)

the_tick_rules
2006-11-07, 09:35 AM
blackguards aren't really more powerful (well they have different abilities so some may think they are stronger) but a blackguard is basically an anti-paladin. they are as committed to evil and consort with demons/devils as a paladin consorts with good and does good deeds (or tries to in miko's case).

i dunno if she is going to fall, maybe. but my first impression is the title the road to heck (is paved with good intentions) meant xykon is going to release miko to hunt the OOTS for their "deceiving her". a bad idea since they may be the only hope of stopping xykon, but for miko she would have good intentions for doing it.

how does that jedi phrase go? isnt it fear-anger-hate-suffering? oh and on a similar topic i talked with a friend and our debates over sabines succubus/erinye status may have been misguided. he suggested the amibguity over her was not over her succubus/erinye status (she is clearly a succubus) but was a joke about people sometimes confusing the succubus is a demon, not devil and also confusing which outsider is vulnerable to cold iron/silver. that actually makes more sense to me, anyone else agree?

xyzchyx
2006-11-07, 09:41 AM
Miko's lost it.

"they [OotS] seem to have found a way to magically shield their duplicity"

She's taken to actually _contriving_ crimes that the OotS has done and putting more stock in that than the fact that Xykon and Co have just murdered the guards in this tower before her very own eyes.

And with no Lord Shojo around to "talk her down" and bring her back to reality... It's such a shame, really... I really had held out that there was still some hope for Miko.

Jopinion
2006-11-07, 09:42 AM
I am never disappointed in this comic. I love the Miko possible evil and the roaches.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-07, 09:44 AM
Dear Lord Zenu,
Yes, I like :miko: as evil. I had originally typed "much better" but I don't like her at all as good. Though I'm fascinated by "good" antagonists, I have argued that Miko is a mass-murdering crazy-head who ACTS evil, whether or not she IS evil. But that's a whole nudder ball of wax.

Well, she could hardly be a "good" antagonist to a good party if she didn't have difficulties with "getting it right" so to speak.

Its more that she has... issues, probably relating to her past. Perhaps more will be seen on that front in due course.


oh and on a similar topic i talked with a friend and our debates over sabines succubus/erinye status may have been misguided. he suggested the amibguity over her was not over her succubus/erinye status (she is clearly a succubus) but was a joke about people sometimes confusing the succubus is a demon, not devil and also confusing which outsider is vulnerable to cold iron/silver. that actually makes more sense to me, anyone else agree?

YARR! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26695) A thread on the matter! :smallwink:

Lord Zentei
2006-11-07, 09:48 AM
And with no Lord Shojo around to "talk her down" and bring her back to reality... It's such a shame, really... I really had held out that there was still some hope for Miko.

There may still be. She is now at the stage where Anakin was at the midpoint of Episode III. At that stage, he was about to "fall", and if one didn't know better one would conclude the same about him as you have concluded about Miko here. And yet, what happens at the end of Episode VI? :smallwink:

Nightstallion
2006-11-07, 09:57 AM
Well, now there's two things I don't like about the current storyline -- the Elan/Nale switching, and the fact that Miko seems likely to join Xykon due to misunderstandings about what the Order of the Stick said and did.

I don't like misunderstandings as a primary plot point. ::sighs:: Ah well, maybe it'll be over soon.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2006-11-07, 10:08 AM
I would've loved this comic just for the character development in any case...the fact that it has more of my absolute favorite goblin in the whole world, the bearer of the crimson mantle, just pushes the dial on the awesome-meter to eleven.

Normal awesome meters only go up to ten. Redcloak's goes up to eleven. Yes.

:redcloak:

Tawkis
2006-11-07, 10:20 AM
Miko's lost it.
I tend to agree


"they [OotS] seem to have found a way to magically shield their duplicity"

She's taken to actually _contriving_ crimes that the OotS has done and putting more stock in that than the fact that Xykon and Co have just murdered the guards in this tower before her very own eyes.

And with no Lord Shojo around to "talk her down" and bring her back to reality... It's such a shame, really... I really had held out that there was still some hope for Miko.
Well, if she doesn't know about liches (like the OOTS) she wouldn't know that they regenerate. Eugene wouldn't say anything to Shojo since all he cares about is his family getting revenge.

As for "murdering" the guards, that at least is behaviour that she expects from evil. She can deal with that better.
Shojo has been lying to everyone since day one, while I agree that Miko needs some therapy I think he's the last person to deliver it. However, his authority is rock-solid until she goes over the edge.

Have no fear, stereotypical paladin Miko isn't out of this yet!

Karkadinn
2006-11-07, 10:30 AM
I really don't see Miko as joining forces with Xykon; in her world view, the lich is quintessentially evil, and she is a paladin opposed to such things. Rather, I think Xykon will give her the idea that he and the OOTS are actually allies, a concept she'll seize upon because it justifies her opinion of Our Heroes; then the lich will arrange for her to "escape" so she can set out to righteously foil the OOTS' nefarious scheme. That's the sort of masterminded villainy worthy of Xykon.

I don't hate Miko, or even dislike her; I feel sorry for her. She's convinced that her perspective of the world is the absolute and incontrivertible truth, all black and white with no shades of grey; remember, even her fellow paladins of the Sapphire Guard are uncomfortable with her strict interpretation of Good and Evil (all those missions "away from here"). If she falls, it won't be because some villain tricks her into it, it'll be because her rigid sense of duty (possibly driven by her "righteous" anger) leads her to an evil act.

Quoted for truth.
Assuming that the Order is allied with Xykon is fairly reasonable from her pov. It's more likely than there being a party of mostly good-aligned adventurers who tolerate the company of a psychopath halfling that paints murals with the blood of the innocent, isn't it?
The Redcloak thing is actually kind of touching, in a way. It very much fits in Miko's life view that she assumes Redcloak can't have familial feelings, because that would be directly contradictory to his goal to destroy the frickin' universe, which contains not only his family but his entire species. She works by the basic assumption that Redcloak is not a hypocrite, and is actually working with a consistent philosophy and line of logic! How cute is that? She fails to understand that the very nature of evil is to be hypocritical, illogical, and inconsistent. Particularly in a comedy-oriented online comic.

Starbuck_II
2006-11-07, 10:34 AM
There may still be. She is now at the stage where Anakin was at the midpoint of Episode III. At that stage, he was about to "fall", and if one didn't know better one would conclude the same about him as you have concluded about Miko here. And yet, what happens at the end of Episode VI? :smallwink:

Still evil, but loves his kid more than the emperor.

Unless her kid turns out to be Belkar or Elan I doubt the same for Miko. Unless there is love for Roy still within Miko.

Varian7
2006-11-07, 10:53 AM
Yay for demon roaches with lightsabers! And maybe we should start calling him "Darth Xykon".

Lord Zentei
2006-11-07, 11:02 AM
Still evil, but loves his kid more than the emperor.

Which helps him redeem himself and return to the "good" side - as was the theme of the story. So "still evil" is not really the case.


Unless her kid turns out to be Belkar or Elan I doubt the same for Miko. Unless there is love for Roy still within Miko.


There may be other ways to resolve that than kids in danger, of course.

Kython
2006-11-07, 11:03 AM
I KNEW THIS WOULD COME!!!!

Miko's being turned to the dark side and will become a blackguard!

awesome starwars referances

Doug Lampert
2006-11-07, 11:06 AM
"I'm guessing stupidity has some place in that progression" - Miko

LMAO

This one made me laugh more than any in a long time. Hats off Giant.
Yeh, but many people are missing half the Joke. Paladins are NOT JEDI, so the entire sequence fits under stupidity. Paladins are allowed to hate, fear, kill, suffer, kill, and feel pretty much any emotion (they may not be allowed to act on some emotions some of the time). Xykon, Redcloak, and most of the Miko haters who have quoted Jedi "philosophy" about Miko all miss that. Alignment is about general attitudes, Paladin's fall for evil acts or for actually changing alignment (and unless the act is deliberate attonment is trivial for someone of Miko's level). Nothing in the code about not feeling certain emotions or even about not acting on those emotions.

Miko may well be let go convinced that the OotS is actually in League with Xykon, and under that impression she may act against them and fall for the evil act of attacking good people who are trying to save the world.

Alternately Rich may have Miko fall now because it makes a good joke, but I seriously doubt that he will. And joining Xykon would be out of character for Miko.

theKOT
2006-11-07, 11:22 AM
Well, it was plotterific, but the mode of exposition was pretty cut and dry. The joke was alright but overall the comic dragged a bit, and wasn't very efficient in its exposition. While it raised some good questions, I still give it a 5/10.

fwiffo
2006-11-07, 11:34 AM
Miko may well be let go convinced that the OotS is actually in League with Xykon, and under that impression she may act against them

If Xykon had any clue, he would notice her anger toward OOTS and take advantage of it. After all, as far as Miko sees, he is "alive", OOTS lied, and the only evidence of Xykon's demise is OOTS's word and that crown, which Xykon could've conveniently provided to their accomplices OOTS to fool Saphire guard into thinking he's been destroyed. So, Xykon can easily set her off on a path against OOTS, if he paid attention and played his cards right. Which Xykon is not known to be able to do, in general. But would be a plausible setup.

Sky_Schemer
2006-11-07, 11:37 AM
I'm thinking Miko fits the bill for "stupidity has a place in the progression".

No kidding. She's proved once again that INT and WIS are her dump stats. :)

Starla
2006-11-07, 11:40 AM
My favorite part was the 2 roaches using lightsabers in the last panel. It was all amusing but when I saw the last panel with the 2 roaches on the bottom it drew a hearty chuckle from me.

ozmar
2006-11-07, 11:54 AM
And she's already fallen so far. Miko's got anger, as she herself stated, and gobs of aggression, and yes, though she would not admit it (being such a Paladin), she has fear as well.

Impossible! Paladins are immune to fear. Its a class feature. :smallwink:

I honestly don't know what ya'll are talking about. :miko: is awesome! She's a totally cool paladin. Sure, she's zealous, but since when is that incompatible with LG? I think most of the criticism of her (and paladins in general) stems from a modern, real-world understanding of morality applied to paladins (but never to any other character class) and which isn't really appropriate for the black-and-white, moral-absolutes-embodied-by-actual-extraplanar-beings, violent good-vs-evil morality of the D&D world.

The fact that she is a foil for the OOTS is a part of her antagonist role. But she is clearly adhering to the strictures of the paladin's LG calling while serving that role. She is not going to "turn to the darkside", because she has never strayed from her ideals.

So you go, Samurai Jill! :miko: Keep up the faith! And fight the good fight against Evil!

Ozmar the :miko: Fan

Zeb The Troll
2006-11-07, 12:00 PM
the amibguity over her was not over her succubus/erinye status (she is clearly a succubus) but was a joke about people sometimes confusing the succubus is a demon, not devil and also confusing which outsider is vulnerable to cold iron/silver. that actually makes more sense to me, anyone else agree?
I don't think anyone actually thinks she's an erinyes. That's not the debate. The debate is "succubus or not succubus". There are some pretty valid arguments either way and, short of a Giant declaration, a concensus is impossible. Heck, even then. If Sabine came out and said "I'm a succubus" in a strip, the debate would continue because she did this thing or didn't do that thing.

Just look at the "Miko is evil" debate. She's clearly not. She would've (note that this is a contraction of 'would have' not 'would of') lost her standing as a paladin if she were. Therefore she is not. At least not in the view of the DM, whose opinion is the only one that counts. All the discussion about "if it were in my campaign" is moot. If frogs had wings, you know? She IS a paladin until she's not. Like her or don't (I do not) but the discussion about what someone thinks she should be is irrelevant.

Dawnstrider_Moogle
2006-11-07, 12:02 PM
Oh no! Stay good, :miko:, stay good!

ElfLad
2006-11-07, 12:03 PM
I'm with the camp that thinks Xykon will let Miko escape on a non-obvious way, a way that makes her think that she was able to outsmart him and get out on her own.

Cifer
2006-11-07, 12:17 PM
Well, the strip was quite good, especially with the messed-up jedi mumbo-jumbo.
Still, I don't think M is going to fall, at least not by teaming up with Xykon. That would be too easy now, especially after she has essentially seen through the hate - anger - suffering - whatever monologue with her stupidity comment.
I guess X will set her free (possibly after the aforementioned deathtrap)
and she will go after the order, which happens to be on the way to the city she is just delivering a package to.

TreesOfDeath
2006-11-07, 12:25 PM
The day of Blackguard Miko draws nearer.
Sweet

TMTree
2006-11-07, 12:39 PM
My favorite part was the 2 roaches using lightsabers in the last panel. It was all amusing but when I saw the last panel with the 2 roaches on the bottom it drew a hearty chuckle from me.

This is (almost) exactly what I was going to post. I feel redundant:smalleek:. Great comic though- I've really liked the last few.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-11-07, 12:39 PM
Quoted for truth.
Assuming that the Order is allied with Xykon is fairly reasonable from her pov. It's more likely than there being a party of mostly good-aligned adventurers who tolerate the company of a psychopath halfling that paints murals with the blood of the innocent, isn't it?
The Redcloak thing is actually kind of touching, in a way. It very much fits in Miko's life view that she assumes Redcloak can't have familial feelings, because that would be directly contradictory to his goal to destroy the frickin' universe, which contains not only his family but his entire species. She works by the basic assumption that Redcloak is not a hypocrite, and is actually working with a consistent philosophy and line of logic! How cute is that? She fails to understand that the very nature of evil is to be hypocritical, illogical, and inconsistent. Particularly in a comedy-oriented online comic.

I don't doubt someone has already made a rebuttal to this, but just in case, I'll reply too. We are given no indication in the story as yet precisely what Xykon wants to use the Snarl's power for. Perhaps he wants to kill the Gods, or become a God, or kill every single living creaure on earth leaving only himself and a planet full of undead minions. We could assign him a hundred motives and not one would need to involve "undoing creation." This is just Miko making a less-than-logical leap of reason, "you're using a power that can destroy the universe, ergo you're some kind of psycho who wants to annihilate everything." I seriously doubt that's actually the case--Redcloak is much too down-to-earth, and Xykon loves his own skin far too much, to be party to that kind of suicidal scheme. Miko's assumption may seem more likely from her perspective, but it's still a logical leap primarily meant to paint Redcloak and his goblins as a complete monster with no ties to family or ability to feel love and loyalty.

As Xykon said, "I guess you've gotta get yourself to sleep at night somehow..."

On another note, I doubt we'll see a Blackguard Miko in the future. It's just too likely a move for The Giant to take. (I don't care what he says, he reads these boards and rewrites accordingly--there's just too many coincidental references to the mass debation (lolz) of our threads for it to be otherwise.)

At the very least, I doubt we'll ever see a black-armored, red-eyed Miko leading platoons of skeleton soldiers as so many people seem to be hoping. (I always hated that cliche, the fallen hero suddenly trading his white hat for a black one just because he's "switched sides," when in his own mind he's been on only the side of justice all along.)

Miko is already a villain. No, I don't think she should fall--for anything she's done so far. I'm still sure she's lawful good. But she's a villain all the same. It's quite possible to be lawful good, fulfill the Paladin's code and be a dastardly villain all in one package. That's what the Giant has been showing us through the character. The Paladin's code may enforce honor and courage, but it does nothing to stem bigotry, rashness and vengefulness.

Now, what would really impress me is if the storyline had Miko at last attack the OOTS with full intent to kill at Xykon's own behest, but let her keep her Paladin abilities. It would put a fine point on the theme the Giant's been harping with her since day 1.

Doshi
2006-11-07, 12:41 PM
The Miko haters who insist on insulting Miko's intelligence and character at every opportunity should notice that the reason she now thinks the OotS were lying when they said they destroyed Xykon is that she is underestimating the incompetence of the OotS. Let's face it, while Miko certainly isn't infalliable, Roy and the rest of the OotS have also made some really stupid blunders in the course of this comic. Like Roy's failure to learn that Lich's have pylacteries. Like Roy's stupid failure to realize what the Oracle was hinting about until it was too late. Like their current failure to even imagine that Nale might have played one of the oldest tricks in the book, and replaced his twin brother.

Good grief, this is a comic strip, and none of the characters in this comic are anything even approaching perfect. If they were, the comic would not be so funny. The joke of this particular comic is Miko noting, correctly, that the Star Wars progession to the Dark Side is also rather silly.

Cifer
2006-11-07, 12:42 PM
and Xykon loves his own skin far too much
Except that he hasn't got any, of course...

BardicLasher
2006-11-07, 12:51 PM
Am I the only one hoping for the follow up to be...


:miko: I will never work with a vile creature like you!
:xykon: Oh well. DOMINATE PERSON!
:miko: What is your command, my master?

Tharj TreeSmiter
2006-11-07, 12:56 PM
I still really dislike Miko. I understand her perspectives and assumptions. And yes all characters/people make mistakes (and plenty of them here:)) unlike Roy, Miko seems to take everything personally and once she's made a decision she can't be disuaded from it.

Miko loses perspective, while Roy rolls with the punches and keeps things moving right or wrong.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-07, 12:57 PM
Oh no! Stay good, :miko:, stay good!

Damn. I was logging in because it occoured to me to say just that. :smallbiggrin: Kiki quotes FTW.

vanyell
2006-11-07, 01:00 PM
*chanting*
blackguard
blackguard
blackguard
blackguard
blackguard
blackguard
BLACKGUARD
BLACKGUARD
:miko: :xykon: :miko: :xykon: :miko:

_sl0t_
2006-11-07, 01:00 PM
Redcloack standing up again:
He wasn't necessarilly at 0 hp or less. Of course Xykon would stop Myko when she clearly had the chance to kill him. This could be at 15 hp, maybe even more.
Also CitD could bandage him, or in the case he was at 0 hp, he could perform a standard or a movement action with no penalty.

About Miko:
She reminds me of my mom. After she gets to a conclusion, nothing will make her change it. It doesn't matter how much people say or prove the opposite or how many facts say the contrary, everything is just ignored or "twisted" to corroborate her own conclusion. This doesn't make her necessarily stupid or evil.
I still hate Miko, evil or not. :P

Faramir
2006-11-07, 01:02 PM
Okay, how about this as a scenario:



Miko plays along with Xykon saying she seeks to bring OOTS the justice (true). She turns on Xykon, leads Azure City to victory, reveals Shojo's "treachery" and takes control of Azure City. She then deploys its forces to hunt down OOTS for their evil crimes.

OOTS is then left to defeat Xykon and try and save the world while being actively hunted by the Sapphire Guard.

SupraGuy
2006-11-07, 01:12 PM
Naw, I don't think she's going to turn. She'll still be a paladin, just a seriously misguided one.

Though it occurs to me that if she attacks the OotS, this might give Belkar his chance to 'cause the death of' Windstrider. Or her. Naw. She's gonna live. She's too much of a pain in the rear not to.

Zeb The Troll
2006-11-07, 01:13 PM
We are given no indication in the story as yet precisely what Xykon wants to use the Snarl's power for.
Actually, in #300 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) he specifically says "...we're literally out to conquer the world here..."

Tharj TreeSmiter
2006-11-07, 01:16 PM
I'm hoping for the blackguard, I would probably like her more then... not sure why but I would.

Renegade Paladin
2006-11-07, 01:36 PM
I'm thinking Miko fits the bill for "stupidity has a place in the progression".

Another wonderful comic. I love Redcloak's retort in the second panel... zero ranks in Knowledge (What The Hell You're Talking About).

I'd place her as smarter than Xykon, at any rate.

Estelindis
2006-11-07, 01:40 PM
I enjoyed this comic a lot - especially Redcloak's lines to Miko and the Star Wars references (go lightsaber roaches!).

However, I for one really hope Miko doesn't fall. One of the reasons I like her character is because of the function she fulfils in the narrative: a good, but misguided, antagonist. I think it's a sign of mature storywriting when a recurring character who isn't a particularly bad person nonetheless actively dislikes the protagonist(s).

Coffee_Dragon
2006-11-07, 01:41 PM
Which helps him redeem himself and return to the "good" side - as was the theme of the story. So "still evil" is not really the case.

I think David Brin wants a word (http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/1999/06/15/brin_main/index3.html) with you in a dark alley...

Renegade Paladin
2006-11-07, 01:48 PM
Pixelicious!

Wait - if memory serves, don't you use a Mac? I may be among the few, but in the two odd years I've been using OS X I haven't been able to crash it once. Stalled, yes. Beach ball of death, yes; crash: no.

I'm impressed. Or you do some vile things to your 'puter.
Mac: Crash different. :smallbiggrin:

Sky_Schemer
2006-11-07, 01:50 PM
The Miko haters who insist on insulting Miko's intelligence and character at every opportunity should notice that the reason she now thinks the OotS were lying when they said they destroyed Xykon is that she is underestimating the incompetence of the OotS.

So? Among Miko's failings are that she sees the world as black and white and really allows no room for mistakes, expects obedience because she has "right" on her side, and generally assumes the worst in people. Xykon is still alive? Clearly it's because the OOTS lied, not because they may have made a mistake.


Good grief, this is a comic strip, and none of the characters in this comic are anything even approaching perfect. If they were, the comic would not be so funny.

Well, obviously. But that doesn't mean we can't have preferences or point them out.

BardicLasher
2006-11-07, 01:52 PM
I'd place her as smarter than Xykon, at any rate.

I'd put them at about the same intelligence. Xykon's a fool sometimes, but only when he WANTS to be. On the RARE ocassions Xykon takes something seriously, he's very intelligent about it.

Either way, Redcloak is smarter than both of them. Combined. Or maybe that's just his 18 wisdom at work (Compared to Miko's 14-ish and one of Xykon's 3 dump stats.)

Yeah, Xykon's probably got huge dex and insane Cha. He probably dumped Str, Wis, and Int, or at least didn't put much into them. He also seems like the type who would've had a good constitution score while he was alive.

Jontom Xire
2006-11-07, 01:52 PM
Pure class.

In my industry, Dilbert is the favoured cubicle stick-up of choice. We have company restrictions on colour print-outs but it so happens that the only printer on out floor is a colour printer (and I can't be arsed to turn on my home colour printer because it has USB issues if the computer is already running).

Anyway when I get to work tomorrow I'm gonna print that out and stick it on my cubicle wall. The best strip I've seen for ages.

Ok, so I've had a few drinks, but it's still very funny, and I bet all the geeks in the office (and there are a lot of them) are going to love it.

Btw I'm a software engineer - in case you didn't guess.

P.s. as for the laptop crashing when you went to save - twice. Let me guess. Windows?

TreesOfDeath
2006-11-07, 01:54 PM
*rant at Miko hates*
... Like Roy's failure to learn that Lich's have pylacteries.


Miko isn't stupid, just naive, arrogant, stubborn and single minded (a bad combination). I don't know why people dont get that she was brought into to serve as a force of antagonism. She is explictly meant to wind the order up and stuff. She can be annoying at times, but I think its silly to hate her for doing her job as an atagnist so well, and she is going to get a karmic slap in the end.

And while your noting of Roy's failures are justified, I'd just like to point out that the Lich's have pylacteries is something that his dad really should have told him.

Renegade Paladin
2006-11-07, 01:55 PM
Dear Lord Zenu,
Yes, I like :miko: as evil. I had originally typed "much better" but I don't like her at all as good. Though I'm fascinated by "good" antagonists, I have argued that Miko is a mass-murdering crazy-head who ACTS evil, whether or not she IS evil.
Well that's mainly because you're wrong, but hey. Who's counting?

*Puts away the abacus.* What? :smallamused:

Felinoid
2006-11-07, 02:04 PM
Oy. Can't we keep the Miko-bashing/defending to another thread? It's rather tedious to read through the same arguments over and over again. Anyway...

:miko: "I'm guessing 'stupidity' also has a place in the progression."
:redcloak: "You have no idea."
*GASP* Did Miko actually DELIVER a joke, instead of just playing the straight (wo)man?!? It's a Miracle!

bosssmiley
2006-11-07, 02:12 PM
Careful with those "Star Wars" refs Giant! The infamously litigious (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2439226.html) Lucas might strike back. :smallwink:

Doug Lampert
2006-11-07, 02:12 PM
I'd place her as smarter than Xykon, at any rate.True, but then there are things growing in my refrigerator that are smarter than Xykon.

Alfryd
2006-11-07, 02:16 PM
She is now at the stage where Anakin was at the midpoint of Episode III.
Rich, come here. Come here, and look what you've done. I hold you directly responsible for all the misguided Jedi comparisons.


She's taken to actually _contriving_ crimes that the OotS has done and putting more stock in that than the fact that Xykon and Co have just murdered the guards in this tower before her very own eyes.
And what on Earth gives you the impression she's dismissed their murder of the assorted guards? Not that any are actually visible to her ATM.

The higher end of undead - Liches, Vampire Lord and such is a bit hard to get rid off unless you really know your stuff

Xykon is still alive? Clearly it's because the OOTS lied, not because they may have made a mistake.

Bear in mind that Miko is not likely to know about a Lich's phylactery features, given Roy & Co. didn't. So, she can reasonably assume that Roy would have been able to tell whether or not Xykon was dead. It's not like Miko doesn't herself take measures to ensure those she slays stay good and smote. Thus, she can plausibly conclude that Roy was lying, though she certainly has no inclination to give the benefit of the doubt.

What I find interesting, and slightly saddening, is this indicates she must have heard about their testimony during the trial (as she talks about magical shielding of their duplicity,) which would otherwise have been some testament to their character. Now that's all blown away, since if they were able to lie about Xykon, they could be lying about anything.


Intentionally smiting people who have been pardoned and are in fact not evil ( even belkar because he is doign his time for his crime) , isn't lawful good
No, Belkar's still Evil, since he had to be coerced into service on pain of execution. And, thing is, Miko now has no guarantees that the rest of the group are innocent of the charges they were brought to trial for.


im thinking however, maybe Miko is not angry because the Order lied about Xykon, maybe she figures that they lied about the whole redmountain incident, thus making them agents of destruction, or Xykon allies or something

I think Xykon will give her the idea that he and the OOTS are actually allies, a concept she'll seize upon because it justifies her opinion of Our Heroes; then the lich will arrange for her to "escape" so she can set out to righteously foil the OOTS' nefarious scheme. That's the sort of masterminded villainy worthy of Xykon.
That is very possible.

I really enjoyed the talk between Miko and Redcloak, especially since I am also a fan of the Goblins webcomic and that kind of moral amibiguity stuff can be pretty cool.
They're sorta kindred spirits, really. Both stuck with masters they're not entirely happy with, highly Lawful, and borderline within their alignments.

"So help me, if you force me to sail a ship made of hobgoblin corpses, I will find a way to make you pay."

In any case, this will all be settled tomorrow, most likely. In which case all the critics will either be sternly rebuffed, or a tiny little part of me will die inside.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-07, 02:19 PM
I think David Brin wants a word (http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/1999/06/15/brin_main/index3.html) with you in a dark alley...

David Brin is an idiot. As shown here (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/Brin.html).

Lord Zentei
2006-11-07, 02:22 PM
Mac: Crash different. :smallbiggrin:

I ninja'd you. :smalltongue:

Haarculaneaum
2006-11-07, 02:25 PM
highly Lawful

No. :redcloak: is Neutral Evil. He doesn't like Lawful folk, as he complains about Hobgoblins having all their lawfulness.

Haar

specifically: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html

Mewtarthio
2006-11-07, 02:33 PM
If Miko falls, it should be a realistic fall. There is no way short of Dominate Person she could join Xykon right here and now. The most likely possiblity I can think of is that she falls for doing something she believes to be right (such as ignoring innocents in need while pursuing Belkar or killing a helpless opponent when he could easily be captured) and also discovers Lord Shojo's deception.

Renegade Paladin
2006-11-07, 02:34 PM
Am I the only one hoping for the follow up to be...


:miko: I will never work with a vile creature like you!
:xykon: Oh well. DOMINATE PERSON!
:miko: What is your command, my master?

Two words: Paladin saves.

Alfryd
2006-11-07, 02:36 PM
No. Redcloak is Neutral Evil. He doesn't like Lawful folk, as he complains about Hobgoblins having all their lawfulness.
That was kinda to underline how useful they'd be as minions, he dislikes them because they bullied his native people. And he still tries to avoid unnecesary deaths on their part... for a given value of 'unneccesary.'
He is, however, dutiful to a fault, and has never, to my knowledge, really lied.

Renegade Paladin
2006-11-07, 02:37 PM
I think David Brin wants a word (http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/1999/06/15/brin_main/index3.html) with you in a dark alley...

David Brin is a self-important blowhard. That article, and I have read it before, is possibly the biggest steaming pile of bull I've ever been subjected to.

TinSoldier
2006-11-07, 02:41 PM
No. :redcloak: is Neutral Evil. He doesn't like Lawful folk, as he complains about Hobgoblins having all their lawfulness.

Haar

specifically: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html


That was kinda to underline how useful they'd be as minions, he dislikes them because they bullied his native people. And he still tries to avoid unnecesary deaths on their part... for a given value of 'unneccesary.'
He is, however, dutiful to a fault, and quite rarely lies.After checking the strip in question, I think Haar has a point.

:redcloak: "All efficiency and warrior's codes and sense of duty, with their military discipline this and discipline that, and--"

That sounds Lawful to me. And while :redcloak: complaining about it doesn't make him Neutral it certainly increases the possibility.

Coffee_Dragon
2006-11-07, 02:45 PM
David Brin is an idiot. As shown here (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/Brin.html).

Argh, white on black! *reads* Those are good points, though he makes some hasty assumptions of his own about Brin and his work (e.g. "The Postman" as novel vs. "The Postman" as movie), and argues a lot against Brin's rhetoric rather than against his points. It would be interesting to read Brin's reply; I assume he'd claim his points still stand.

Anyway, I'll stop clubbing people with that article now.

BardicLasher
2006-11-07, 02:51 PM
Two words: Paladin saves.

Didn't help her against Forcecage... And Xkyon's a SORCERER. How many times a day can he cast Dominate Person? Answer: A lot. What can Miko do while in the cage? Answer: Not much.

And he only needs a very simply command once she's dominated, one that isn't against her nature... "Smite the order of the stick."

octobergirl
2006-11-07, 02:51 PM
RFLOL!! Oh, my goodness! The roaches with the lightsabers. Funny, funny stuff!!

Lord Zentei
2006-11-07, 02:55 PM
Argh, white on black! *reads* Those are good points, though he makes some hasty assumptions of his own about Brin and his work (e.g. "The Postman" as novel vs. "The Postman" as movie), and argues a lot against Brin's rhetoric rather than against his points.

Mike Wong is not above doling out a bit of flaming, though he always has sound arguments to go with such condiments. :smallwink: (In any case, arguing against Brin's rhetoric is reasonable if Brin is using rhetoric overmuch in the opinion of the writer - provided that the points are confronted also, as is the case here.)


It would be interesting to read Brin's reply; I assume he'd claim his points still stand.

Presumably, he would - though I'd like to see him raise counterpoints before I'd swallow such a claim.


Anyway, I'll stop clubbing people with that article now.

Yarr. Good to hear. (It is a bit of a tangent we're indulging in in any case:smallwink: )

innk
2006-11-07, 02:55 PM
Lol nice comic, but aaaa miko pwned redcloak somehow :(

Wren
2006-11-07, 02:58 PM
I'm sure this will just reaffirm my belief in random RPG rule #2325; any major female paladin/jedi/righteous crusader npc you run into will, eventually, turn to the dark side (and come back to the light side again after falling in love, of course).

Haarculaneaum
2006-11-07, 03:02 PM
Forcecage = no saving throw + no spell resistance.
God, Jesus, Buddha, and Xenu couldn't save against a Forcecage.
Ch*ck Norr*s himself couldn't even save against one, though it's likely a Forcecage would probably disintegrate itself rather than enclose him, roundhouses being what they are and all.

Haar

Leo_Forestclaw
2006-11-07, 03:03 PM
Or - he just Crashes Different (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7148748849652085555&q=Nintendo+Oldschool+Revolution).:smallbiggrin:

O. M. F. G.!

I'm vacillating between crying and laughing here!

Thanks for the link!

Grey Watcher
2006-11-07, 03:05 PM
Personally, I think having Miko go Blackguard is just too easy a thing to do. It just seems like a cheap shot. Besides, she isn't dumb enough to do something obviously Evil, like ally herself with a Lich.

Turcano
2006-11-07, 03:27 PM
Okay, how about this as a scenario:



Miko plays along with Xykon saying she seeks to bring OOTS the justice (true). She turns on Xykon, leads Azure City to victory, reveals Shojo's "treachery" and takes control of Azure City. She then deploys its forces to hunt down OOTS for their evil crimes.

OOTS is then left to defeat Xykon and try and save the world while being actively hunted by the Sapphire Guard.



There's one major flaw in that plan:

Hinjo. I doubt that Shojo's own nephew is going to take part in an ouster, and he would probably oppose an attempted coup. In such a scenario, I think that he would definitely have the upper hand, as no one in the Sapphire Guard likes Miko because she's an arrogant prig. A perceived abandonment by the Guard, on the other hand, would almost certainly push her over the edge.

xyzchyx
2006-11-07, 03:34 PM
Forcecage = no saving throw + no spell resistance.
God, Jesus, Buddha, and Xenu couldn't save against a Forcecage.Please don't go there... or are you trying to offend certain people's religious beliefs?

Tharj TreeSmiter
2006-11-07, 03:37 PM
Yeah, Xykon's probably got huge dex and insane Cha. He probably dumped Str, Wis, and Int, or at least didn't put much into them. He also seems like the type who would've had a good constitution score while he was alive.


But Xykon is a spell caster which requires good INT and WIS, I'd say his dump stats are constitution, strength, and dexterity.

When he acts stupid it's to make a joke like putting all the tough monsters on the bottom level and spreading out the weak monsters.

Wren
2006-11-07, 03:37 PM
Please don't go there... or are you trying to offend certain people's religious beliefs?

He was just trying to make a point, you're the one blowing it out of proportion.

TinSoldier
2006-11-07, 03:38 PM
But Xykon is a spell caster which requires good INT and WIS, I'd say his dump stats are constitution, strength, and dexterity.

When he acts stupid it's to make a joke like putting all the tough monsters on the bottom level and spreading out the weak monsters.But he was a sorcerer in life, so Cha is more important than Int or Wis.

Duraska
2006-11-07, 03:40 PM
I love Miko so much. I was so glad to see her back in the strips, but now I'm a bit worried... :)

Doompuppy
2006-11-07, 03:47 PM
Actually, in #300 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) he specifically says "...we're literally out to conquer the world here..."

That, to me, says that he's not out to destroy the world. Hard to conquer what isn't there, after all...

Rolaran
2006-11-07, 03:47 PM
This is incredible. How is the Giant going to keep up this pace all week? Seriously, Rich. Good luck, and we all appreciate the sleep you're losing to get these to our waiting eyeballs.

As for the comic itself, sounds exactly like me and my friends when someone tries to quote something in a game. Like before a paladin smite, from a paladin whose deity is apparently Samuel L. Jackson...

"And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger!"

"Isn't there something about "my name is the Lord"?"

"I think you're right... where, after "I will strike down upon thee"?"

"No, I think before."

"Ah, crap. Do-over!"

Swashbuckler
2006-11-07, 03:50 PM
I love Miko so much. I was so glad to see her back in the strips, but now I'm a bit worried... :)

I love Miko, too. As a Blackguard! :xykon:

Lord Zentei
2006-11-07, 03:53 PM
That, to me, says that he's not out to destroy the world. Hard to conquer what isn't there, after all...

Xykon is out to conquer the world. It may be that Redcloak is planning to double cross Xykon: the fire that destroyed Lirian's gate might not have been so "accidental" as he claims, for instance. Though I admit that this may be a bit of a long shot.

Mirage_of_Deceit
2006-11-07, 04:11 PM
Well yep, I admit my knowledge of D&D-related material is practically nil, but Miko The Blackguard (or whatever the class is called) is looking more and more likely. Are Blackguards more powerful than Paladins?

Yes in fact they are. Blackguards are very very dangerous in fact in the campaign are DM is working on right now a blackguard is the main villain. In fact to become a blackguard someone has to be contacted by an evil outsider I guess Xykon counts as an evil outsider so uh yeah Mikos probably gonna turn into a blackguard. Then the oots will have to kill her yay!

Skyserpent
2006-11-07, 04:31 PM
Outsider means from another plane. Xykon is technically and undead, not an outsider. at least in Type.

Finwe
2006-11-07, 04:32 PM
I'd put them at about the same intelligence. Xykon's a fool sometimes, but only when he WANTS to be. On the RARE ocassions Xykon takes something seriously, he's very intelligent about it.

Either way, Redcloak is smarter than both of them. Combined. Or maybe that's just his 18 wisdom at work (Compared to Miko's 14-ish and one of Xykon's 3 dump stats.)

Yeah, Xykon's probably got huge dex and insane Cha. He probably dumped Str, Wis, and Int, or at least didn't put much into them. He also seems like the type who would've had a good constitution score while he was alive.


I'd say he's got good(12-13), if not great (14-16) int. His wis probably isn't terrible, but its not particularly good either (probably in the 9-11 range). What makes you think he's got a huge dex modifier?

Ego Slayer
2006-11-07, 04:40 PM
That was an awesome comic! It definitely just made my day... ^_^

Starbuck_II
2006-11-07, 04:43 PM
Forcecage = no saving throw + no spell resistance.
God, Jesus, Buddha, and Xenu couldn't save against a Forcecage.
Ch*ck Norr*s himself couldn't even save against one, though it's likely a Forcecage would probably disintegrate itself rather than enclose him, roundhouses being what they are and all.

Haar

However, Abe Lincoln can't be touched by a forcecage. He wears a stove pipe hat adding lots of height and he was tall around 6'4.

Stovepipe hats protect against force cage.


Originally Posted by Bitnine:
NPC: Why is your friend wearing a giant stovepipe hat made of tinfoil?
Wizard: :shrug: He keeps saying it keeps the evil magic from locking him in a little cage.

Geech000
2006-11-07, 04:50 PM
Demon cockroaches with lightsabres for the win!


I wonder how badly my players would mutilate me if I actually tried to make them fight some of those....

Mirage_of_Deceit
2006-11-07, 05:07 PM
Outsider means from another plane. Xykon is technically and undead, not an outsider. at least in Type.

I knew that but you forget his spirit was trapped in some other dimension while his body was reforming so technically he could be an outsider.

Eldhrin
2006-11-07, 05:13 PM
Demon roaches with lightsabers? How cute is that!

I note that Miko completely fails to think that maybe the Order of the Stick genuinely believed that they'd destroyed Xykon. Of course, that would require a good deal more introspection and understanding of the limitations of her powers than Miko seems to possess... and a severe dose of some sort of medicine for jumpingtoconclusionsitis.


Demon cockroaches with lightsabres for the win!


I wonder how badly my players would mutilate me if I actually tried to make them fight some of those....

You should so do that! Wouldn't they suffer some fairly severe penalties for being so ridiculously small though? You'd have to cast Enlarge Creature on them first or something.

Wren
2006-11-07, 05:18 PM
If Xykon were a demi-lich, it might be possible. More likely he has access to plenty of forgotten knowledge of dark gods and such, to hook whatsherface up with one.

Sothicus
2006-11-07, 05:24 PM
Wow! So many comics in a row! It's like Christmas come early! Keep up the good work. (Also I really like the tangent sub-plot going on).

mikeejimbo
2006-11-07, 05:46 PM
You'd have to cast Enlarge Creature on them first or something.

But that completely violates the square-cube law. We don't want to be unrealistic, after all :smallwink:

AyuVince
2006-11-07, 05:46 PM
Miko's lost it.

"they [OotS] seem to have found a way to magically shield their duplicity"

She's taken to actually _contriving_ crimes that the OotS has done and putting more stock in that than the fact that Xykon and Co have just murdered the guards in this tower before her very own eyes.


I think so too. She's pretty much in denial now, letting her hate against the OotS cloud her judgment - especially with no Shojo acting as a restraint around. However, I believe she will "only" fall, not become a blackguard. Taking up this prestige class means voluntary commitment to definitive evil, and I don't believe she would sink that deep.

Sliverghost
2006-11-07, 05:50 PM
Secondly will they team up

I liked the comic, especially the roaches, but is she missing the force cage in panel 7? Or is that just a view behind the cage?

u can see the cage but its faint


and that would be so funny if they team up

Sliverghost
2006-11-07, 05:52 PM
Wow! So many comics in a row! It's like Christmas come early! Keep up the good work.

ill say, but sadly just a few more in a row =( :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek:

Solara
2006-11-07, 06:11 PM
Oh wow. Seriously, I just loved this one to pieces.

Everyone's always wanting to see Fallen Miko, Blackguard Miko, etc., but I've never seen a realistic way that it could happen before. (Granted, I still don't, at least not at this point, but this strip looks to me like the first step down the road to, well, you know... It could go in so many directions from here, none of them good, all of them deliciously dramatic.)

Though as cool as it is to one kickass storyline being put into motion, at the moment I'm mostly just happy to see more of Redcloak in the spotlight.

The first few panels were backstoryiffic! :D Not to mention that even in such a short space they revealed (well, maybe cemented) so much about both Redcloak and Miko's personality. The dialogue there was great, I must have reread that conversation like three times...even without any jokes it's wonderful stuff, those two have got to interact more often.

And from his scorn at her comment it also seems like Redcloak might not, after all, be trying to 'undo creation'. More than likely he and Xykon are out to control the Snarl's power, though it still seems he may know a lot more about the gate than Xykon does.

Zaruthustran
2006-11-07, 06:19 PM
This comic was great. Xykon is the best--I just love his dialogue.

Me, I predict a little romance between Miko and Redcloak. I know, I know. Very unlikely, but man, it would be funny.

-z

the_tick_rules
2006-11-07, 06:26 PM
miko would never work with xykon. if (or more likely when) the forcecage wears off xykon will be gone then miko as i see it has 3 options.

1 persue xykon
2 warn azure city
3 hunt the oots for their percieved betrayal

I dunno about miko falling as i said earlier. this self-richteous justice is how she's always been. in her mind she's still obeying her paladin code.

aryeh88
2006-11-07, 06:34 PM
Wow, Miko really can't see past her own self righteousness can she?

Solara
2006-11-07, 06:38 PM
1 persue xykon
2 warn azure city
3 hunt the oots for their percieved betrayal


Those aren't mutually exclusive, you know. In fact she could easily do all three.

Pilum
2006-11-07, 06:47 PM
Sigh. So much of this and other threads reminds me of why I stopped playing paladins.

They're not jedi. If we must look to SF for the 'rules' for a paladin, I much prefer someone's idea here to use the Three Laws of Robotics, but with 'paladin' substituted for 'robot'. As any reader of Asimov could confirm, there's enough leeway in those apparently simple little instructions for a whole universe of interpretation ;)
They're not, ironically enough, given Miko's status, samurai. Samurai are fighters wearing different clothes (yes, I KNOW there are class templates for samurai, but ultimately one can play a samurai using nothing but the base fighter class).
A paladin is a holy knight, entirely within the western european chivalric (even, dare I say it, 'christian') tradition, who must defeat the Forces of Evil where'er he finds them. This does not mean keeping detect evil up constantly and smiting away at each and every opportunity - to do so inevitably tempts an over-reaction, the harming of innocents and, ultimately, violation of Goodness. Nothing wrong with keeping Detect Evil up to be on one's guard, of course... A ha'penn'orth of example is better than a penn'orth of cure, as the old saying goes. But that said, they are STILL Warriors, to see some people on these boards willing to pull the trigger on any pally within 100 yards of their gaming group who dares say "I draw my sword" is rather disheartening.

Compare this, for example:

And anon after there came out of the castle seven knights, and all were brethren. And when they saw Galahad they cried: Knight, keep thee, for we assure thee nothing but death. Why, said Galahad, will ye all have ado with me at once? Yea, said they, thereto mayest thou trust. Then Galahad put forth his spear and smote the foremost to the earth, that near he brake his neck. And therewithal the other smote him on his shield great strokes, so that their spears brake. Then Sir Galahad drew out his sword, and set upon them so hard that it was marvel to seet it, and so through great force he made them to forsake the field; and Galahad chased them till they entered into the castle, and so passed through the castle at another gate.

with the now-infamous "Samantha Incident":
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html

I chased this passage for a reason. Here we have Sir Galahad fighting a group who threatens him, killing one. Yep, killing. And this is the only knight, to my knowledge, who properly achieved the Grail. He was deemed such a perfect knight he was permitted full, uncovered sight of it and was taken into heaven. And yet some GM's/players on these forums would have stripped him of his office before he'd barely begun. Too many in the D&D community - and this argument has been going on since paladins were first created - seem to take a perverse delight in looking for every chance to effectively stunt a PC. I find it frustrating and somewhat disquieting that what could be called the only inherently heroic class in the whole game should be the subject of such derision.

Oh, and from a storyline point of view - no, becoming a blackguard is too cliche, and I'm not getting any motivation. I mean come on, "Join me, a symbol of everything you've worked against?" No, killing, raising and having her later reassert her own personality (becoming a freaky undead paladin? Why not? Remember the GM's motto, "My World, My Way!" :D ) and striking down Xykon at his moment of triumph? More likely. Personally I'll wait and see what happens, but I'll be somewhat disappointed if some of what could be termed the more... easier, obvious plot choices are followed, especially as, let's be honest, it would have been so easy to have Miko simply exit stage right, never to be seen again...

Wrecan
2006-11-07, 06:47 PM
Actually, as far as she knows, OOTS is waiting for them in Azure City so Durkon can receive a response about his letter to the High Priest of Thor. So if Xykon escapes, she'd definitely hightail it to Azure City for all three reasons.

Coffee_Dragon
2006-11-07, 06:55 PM
Me, I predict a little romance between Miko and Redcloak. I know, I know. Very unlikely, but man, it would be funny.

Whoa. Reading the last few posts on the previous page, I had this idea of a romance between Redcloak and Miko that I thought of posting within spoiler tags. Not knowing I had already been beaten to it.

Anyway, what about the idea that Redcloak is following Xykon only in order to betray him at some critical point, grab the power for himself and not actually be so evil about it?

fangthane
2006-11-07, 07:05 PM
However, Abe Lincoln can't be touched by a forcecage. He wears a stove pipe hat adding lots of height and he was tall around 6'4.

Stovepipe hats protect against force cage.

Not unless the stovepipe hat is at least 14 feet tall. The version of forcecage Xykon used yields a 20-foot barred cube. An Abe Lincoln with Righeous Might, on the other hand, would be proof against forcecages as long as the hat's normally at least 3.5 feet tall (which I still doubt)

Finwe, most minmaxed caster characters have a decent dex, and I'd expect no different from Xykon; I suspect that's the justification others use for assuming a good dex too.

Kish
2006-11-07, 07:30 PM
I knew that but you forget his spirit was trapped in some other dimension while his body was reforming so technically he could be an outsider.
No. "Outsider" means "outsider." It doesn't mean "undead subjected to tortured logic."

dunbar
2006-11-07, 08:09 PM
I can see Miko falling, and perhaps even joining with some evil character, while thinking that she is still in the cause of good.

She is so sure of herself, so sure she is RIGHT, and that's what will be her downfall. She has believed from the start that the OotS were in the wrong, and never truly believed they were not guilty, and probably never will. I don't think anything can convince her otherwise...Xyklon will release her knowing she'll hunt them down. And in the process, she will do something that causes her to lose her paladin status, like say killing Roy or some other member of the OotS.

But, and here's the rub: she will never believe she did the wrong thing. I think the 12 gods themselves could come down and tell here that what she did was evil, and still she would hold that they were wrong and SHE was right. And her belief in that, in that she best knows good from evil, is what will blind her and be her doom. She will twist all evidence she sees to fit this belief; and when she is bereft of her paladin powers she will be ripe for some evil being to come along, agree with her beliefs, and offer her power to fullfil her view of "justice." Thus she could well become a blackguard (or something similar), and never really know it, and still believe with all her might that she is on the true side of good and justice.

I think Rich must be a fan of Babylon 5 (thus the "giant in the playground" reference?), and this reminds me of the episode "Comes the Inquisitor." Delenn believes that she has a purpose, that she is part of a prophecy. The inquisitor challenges her belief:

"If I believe I'm here now for a reason..."
"And if the world says otherwise?"
"Then the world is wrong!"
"And Delenn is right? Perhaps the world is right and Delenn is wrong? Have you ever considered that? Have you?"
"Yes. Sometimes."
"Then there may yet be hope for you."

Miko has never considered this. All that remains to be seen is if there is still hope for her anyways...

tgva8889
2006-11-07, 09:00 PM
I think she's too good to side with Xykon personally, simply because she KNOWS he's evil. She also KNOWS he plans to destroy the city which is her home and the lord she serves. She might, however, become a blackguard purely for revenge against the Order. I could see that occuring, if she is willing to lose her paladin status to kill them. She's got Detect Evil, I'm wondering why she hasn't use it yet.

Lord_Jadawin
2006-11-07, 09:19 PM
I'm finally seeing some comments that begin to touch on the real imperfection of Miko- namely a lack of humility. Maybe it's just the nature of the Christian tradition I was raised in, but I have a real problem with any supposedly good-aligned character who isn't willing to acknowledge and examine his or her own faults and engage in some self-criticism. That's the real path to the dark side- not fear or anger or suffering (suffering? what does one's suffering have to do with their moral state? that's the logic of Job's friends)

Miko has shown absolutely no inclination that I am aware of to ever look at herself and wonder whether or not what she's doing is appropriate or an optimal way to accomplish the will of the Twelve. She's a lot more likely to deliberately attribute her own wishes as their will, and in a campaign I was running, that would be the quickest way to at least suffer a temporary loss of paladin powers.

mikeejimbo
2006-11-07, 09:25 PM
This has to be the comic where I started actively disliking Miko. Not just for her anger towards the OOTS for (seemingly) lying, but especially for how she reacted to Redcloak's dismay at her (and the whole Sapphire Guard's) killing of his friends and family.

"Pff, as if the bonds of family had any meaning to a soulless nihilist who seeks to undo creation"

She has a good point, but she also has no ranks in Knowledge(What the Hell You're Talking About) skill.

Marcus
2006-11-07, 10:08 PM
Backstoryiffic!

heh, brilliant, I love them roaches. I think redcloak may very well be my favorite OOTS character. Wonder what level he is? hmn...

Zeb The Troll
2006-11-07, 10:16 PM
Two words: Paladin saves.
Yeah, but a paladin's phenomenal saves are due in large part to their CHA stat being pretty high. I'm not sure hers is. That would make her saves closer to a Fighter's, if I'm not mistaken.


David Brin is a self-important blowhard. That article, and I have read it before, is possibly the biggest steaming pile of bull I've ever been subjected to.
Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law), anyone?


That, to me, says that he's not out to destroy the world. Hard to conquer what isn't there, after all...
Yeah, I was trying to support your assertion that they're not out to "undo creation," not make a counter point. Rereading my post I see that my intention wasn't readily apparent. Now it is. :smallsmile:

Nazzo, the 102nd
2006-11-07, 10:38 PM
Actually, as far as she knows, OOTS is waiting for them in Azure City so Durkon can receive a response about his letter to the High Priest of Thor. So if Xykon escapes, she'd definitely hightail it to Azure City for all three reasons.

That's a good point, Wrecan... Didn't thought of it.

Maybe...

... when the Forcecage spell runs out and Miko goes to Azure City, she'll see the OotS helping the Sapphire Guard in the fight against Xykon's forces and be all confused.

Ha! Speculation is fun! :smallbiggrin:

TigerHunter
2006-11-07, 10:49 PM
In the second panel, Miko says 'nihlist.' Isn't it supposed to be spelled 'nihilist?'

[/nitpick]

Sliverghost
2006-11-07, 11:00 PM
Or - he just Crashes Different (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7148748849652085555&q=Nintendo+Oldschool+Revolution).:smallbiggrin:

OMG i cant stop watching/laughing at it im am going to show this to all my friends LOL :amused:

Solara
2006-11-07, 11:07 PM
I'm finally seeing some comments that begin to touch on the real imperfection of Miko- namely a lack of humility. Maybe it's just the nature of the Christian tradition I was raised in, but I have a real problem with any supposedly good-aligned character who isn't willing to acknowledge and examine his or her own faults and engage in some self-criticism. That's the real path to the dark side- not fear or anger or suffering (suffering? what does one's suffering have to do with their moral state? that's the logic of Job's friends)

Miko has shown absolutely no inclination that I am aware of to ever look at herself and wonder whether or not what she's doing is appropriate or an optimal way to accomplish the will of the Twelve. She's a lot more likely to deliberately attribute her own wishes as their will, and in a campaign I was running, that would be the quickest way to at least suffer a temporary loss of paladin powers.


Excellent post! I don't think I've ever really sat down and examined my frustration with Miko, but I do believe this gets right to the heart of the matter. I would say that compassion, empathy, and humility are the three key ingredients to being Good. Miko never seems to display any of that, though of course I'd say it was very difficult, if not impossible to have one without the others.

I honestly think Roy is a better example of a LG character than Miko is, but of course everyone seems to have a different take on the alignment system. I just happen to think anyone who's heart was really in the right place would be Good first, Lawful second.

<<yAn>>
2006-11-07, 11:22 PM
They're not, ironically enough, given Miko's status, samurai. Samurai are fighters wearing different clothes (yes, I KNOW there are class templates for samurai, but ultimately one can play a samurai using nothing but the base fighter class)

I've been ghosting on this forums for quite sometime, and although a lot of the posts on this forums are a great read, I've never felt the need to response until now. I think Pilum did a great effort in trying to change the stereotypes surrounding the paladin. However, for all your efforts, you acted towards the Samurai the same way you are urging people NOT to act towards the paladin.

Samurai are not "fighters wearing different clothes". Yes, one can play a samurai using the base fighter class. This is because the Samurai are not the sum of the class template's abilities, but rather warriors who swear loyalty to a lord and follow the Bushido code. Check here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurai) for a detailed description of the Samurai.

Flak_Razorwill
2006-11-07, 11:28 PM
"The road to heck is paved with good intentions."

As it happened to Anakin, Macbeth, and many others, Miko may fall, too.

I hope she redeems herself in a cool way. Not like Frohman. PLEASE not like Frohman!

Chaingun
2006-11-07, 11:40 PM
I've tried to second-guess the Giant in the past and been dead wrong. Still, it's fun, so I'll try again.

I believe Miko won't become a blackguard, at least not right away. She'd NEVER agree to co-operate with Xykon and Redcloak, EVER. Far more likely she'd be imprisoned after the Forcecage wears off for the ostensible purpose of Xykon coming back to her later to talk her around some more; but in reality being allowed to escape so she can be free to go after the evil ones (which in her mind now is just about EVERY major character.) Along the way she will do something which is an evil act and immediately lose her Paladin status. She might not even know about this until she tries to use one of her powers and fails. This would be better for the story than becoming a Blackguard, as at least in this way she has hope for redemption.

Also, does anyone else have the idea that Miko is RIGHT about Redcloak? Maybe he is the REAL BBEG of the strip. Xykon wants power, so seeks the gates. Redcloak recognised Xykon's usefulness long ago, so acts the "loyal henchman" when his true agenda is to... DUN DUN DUN... DESTROY THE WORLD!

Haarculaneaum
2006-11-07, 11:40 PM
Thank you, Lord Jada Pinkett-Smith.
I have been unable to correctly articulate your stated viewpoint, which I share.
I am indebted to your clear thought.

Haar

xyzchyx
2006-11-07, 11:52 PM
Everyone's always wanting to see Fallen MikoNot me... I'm fully expecting it any time now, but I certainly wouldn't have wanted it to happen.
I can see Miko falling, and perhaps even joining with some evil character, while thinking that she is still in the cause of good.Doing so wouldn't necessarily forfeit her alignment, but voluntarily associating with Xykon would would instantly render her a non-paladin, forevermore just a fighter without the bonus feats.

Mirage_of_Deceit
2006-11-08, 12:06 AM
No. "Outsider" means "outsider." It doesn't mean "undead subjected to tortured logic."

well then I have but one thing to say maybe he was an outsider before he was undead :P that or maybe Rich will bend the rules again or you know Miko wont become a blackguard which I hope will not happen :/

mikeejimbo
2006-11-08, 12:23 AM
I expect that if she falls, it won't be because of working with Xykon.

Cult_of_the_Raven
2006-11-08, 12:39 AM
I can see Miko falling, and perhaps even joining with some evil character, while thinking that she is still in the cause of good.

She is so sure of herself, so sure she is RIGHT, and that's what will be her downfall. ....
But, and here's the rub: she will never believe she did the wrong thing. ... And her belief in that, in that she best knows good from evil, is what will blind her and be her doom.

this seems to describe ninety percent of evil beings.

take, for example of this, two barbarian clans. they have been fighting for centuries. each side believes that they are doing good. almost every battle that has taken place can be described like this. only after the battle is won that the alignments of the parties involved are decided.

this is the true wisdom of war.

Taelas
2006-11-08, 12:40 AM
I think David Brin wants a word (http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/1999/06/15/brin_main/index3.html) with you in a dark alley...
That article is full of stupid...
Two quick points:
a) Anakin Skywalker was redeemed. He rejected evil the moment he chose to save his son. That doesn't mean he is suddenly exempt from his crimes and that "all charges should be dismissed at once". As in the D&D universe, a simple choice can change your alignment. If Anakin Skywalker was truly redeemed, then he would want to make amends for his past crimes. He does it the only way he could: By sacrificing his own life to save someone else's. Can there be a greater path to redemption?
b) When did anyone in Star Wars convert to evil simply by becoming angry? Anakin's conversion was a long and troubled one, but ultimately it was fear that turned Anakin to the dark side.
Sheesh.

Rich, great comic. Loved the roaches with the sabers.

Telinyth
2006-11-08, 12:44 AM
David Brin is a self-important blowhard. That article, and I have read it before, is possibly the biggest steaming pile of bull I've ever been subjected to.

On the other hand, Brin can claim to be among the top seven science fiction authors in the history of the field. The fact that he has won not only the Hugo, but also the Nebula, and the John W. Campbell Memorial awards makes me think that he might just know what he's talking about when he discusses science fiction. Although I could be snide and ask if you've published anything in the field, I won't. Instead, I'll just make the comment that perhaps you could restrict such violently negative comments to a less public arena. I understand that you've a right to your opinion, but there are less confrontational ways to express it.

zapperchamp
2006-11-08, 12:53 AM
Hmmmm, on other DnD boards we have often discussed the Good and Evil alignments. The funny thing about them, at least in the Handbook, is that the intentions of the character mean nothing. A person could believe that they are doing good by killing *insert name here* but may be considered evil based on the rules of alignment. Therefore, Miko may indeed be considered evil if she tries to kill OoTS even if she believes it to be good. Alignment is tricky this way.

EDIT: Let me word that a little better. "Good intentions mean nothing if the act is evil."

Interesting to note: Paladins must "help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends)" Does that mean if she helped an evil character, she would be stripped of paladin powers? Maybe if she helped him by trying to kill OoTS?

Renegade Paladin
2006-11-08, 01:07 AM
I'd say he's got good(12-13), if not great (14-16) int. His wis probably isn't terrible, but its not particularly good either (probably in the 9-11 range). What makes you think he's got a huge dex modifier?
He's a cleric, and high enough level and high enough Wisdom to cast harm and destruction. That means a Wisdom of at least 17.

TinSoldier
2006-11-08, 01:09 AM
He's a cleric, and high enough level and high enough Wisdom to cast harm and destruction. That means a Wisdom of at least 17.Who? Xykon? Who ever said that he had cleric levels?

The Glitter Ninja
2006-11-08, 02:01 AM
This comic? Awesome! I'm so glad :xykon: is back. The :mitd: is always so helpful, too.

Solmage
2006-11-08, 02:19 AM
Yeah, but a paladin's phenomenal saves are due in large part to their CHA stat being pretty high. I'm not sure hers is. That would make her saves closer to a Fighter's, if I'm not mistaken.

Considering "CHA" doesn't necessarily mean being likeable, but force of personality, and evaluating the strength of the negative (&postive) responses to her, not to mention the fact she's apparently quite attractive (I love that picture someone made of her, which alas I have lost) I'd say her charisma is through the roof.

Woolysock
2006-11-08, 02:20 AM
Ok, I'm not a big :miko: fan, but she's certainly not stupid. We see this when she fights the ogres. So

She's in a f***ing force cage people! She obviously has to talk with the big bad guys, AND convince them that she's susceptible to their arguments, (look like she's more angry at OOTS than them, f'rinstance) long enough for a)them to let her out or b) the forcecage to run out, so she can get windstriker and hightail it back to AC to warn them. Its either that or undead paladin, and she doesn't want THAT.

xyzchyx
2006-11-08, 02:31 AM
Ok, I'm not a big :miko: fan, but she's certainly not stupid. We see this when she fights the ogres. So

She's in a f***ing force cage people! She obviously has to talk with the big bad guys, AND convince them that she's susceptible to their arguments, (look like she's more angry at OOTS than them, f'rinstance) long enough for a)them to let her out or b) the forcecage to run out, so she can get windstriker and hightail it back to AC to warn them. Its either that or undead paladin, and she doesn't want THAT.
To address what you said in your spoiler...Xykon almost certainly has a better sense motive check than the Ogres did, so Miko bluffing in a manner similar to what you suggest would probably not be effective. If they let her live, anticipating that by the time the forcecage wears off, it will be too late (and then Xykon and Co will have an unwitting ally, Miko, who by this time would be too late to warn Azure City, will undoubtably go after the Order instead of following Xykon, who has many hours or even a couple of days lead time).

Holy_Knight
2006-11-08, 02:35 AM
Sigh. So much of this and other threads reminds me of why I stopped playing paladins.

They're not jedi. If we must look to SF for the 'rules' for a paladin, I much prefer someone's idea here to use the Three Laws of Robotics, but with 'paladin' substituted for 'robot'. As any reader of Asimov could confirm, there's enough leeway in those apparently simple little instructions for a whole universe of interpretation ;)
They're not, ironically enough, given Miko's status, samurai. Samurai are fighters wearing different clothes (yes, I KNOW there are class templates for samurai, but ultimately one can play a samurai using nothing but the base fighter class).
A paladin is a holy knight, entirely within the western european chivalric (even, dare I say it, 'christian') tradition, who must defeat the Forces of Evil where'er he finds them. This does not mean keeping detect evil up constantly and smiting away at each and every opportunity - to do so inevitably tempts an over-reaction, the harming of innocents and, ultimately, violation of Goodness. Nothing wrong with keeping Detect Evil up to be on one's guard, of course... A ha'penn'orth of example is better than a penn'orth of cure, as the old saying goes. But that said, they are STILL Warriors, to see some people on these boards willing to pull the trigger on any pally within 100 yards of their gaming group who dares say "I draw my sword" is rather disheartening.

Compare this, for example:


with the now-infamous "Samantha Incident":
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html

I chased this passage for a reason. Here we have Sir Galahad fighting a group who threatens him, killing one. Yep, killing. And this is the only knight, to my knowledge, who properly achieved the Grail. He was deemed such a perfect knight he was permitted full, uncovered sight of it and was taken into heaven. And yet some GM's/players on these forums would have stripped him of his office before he'd barely begun. Too many in the D&D community - and this argument has been going on since paladins were first created - seem to take a perverse delight in looking for every chance to effectively stunt a PC. I find it frustrating and somewhat disquieting that what could be called the only inherently heroic class in the whole game should be the subject of such derision.

Oh, and from a storyline point of view - no, becoming a blackguard is too cliche, and I'm not getting any motivation. I mean come on, "Join me, a symbol of everything you've worked against?" No, killing, raising and having her later reassert her own personality (becoming a freaky undead paladin? Why not? Remember the GM's motto, "My World, My Way!" :D ) and striking down Xykon at his moment of triumph? More likely. Personally I'll wait and see what happens, but I'll be somewhat disappointed if some of what could be termed the more... easier, obvious plot choices are followed, especially as, let's be honest, it would have been so easy to have Miko simply exit stage right, never to be seen again...

A-freaking-men, brother. That was extremely well said.

Incidentally, Percival and Bors also achieved the Grail, although Galahad was considered the most worthy of them all.



EDIT: Let me word that a little better. "Good intentions mean nothing if the act is evil."
I'm afraid it's still not worded very well. An act done from truly good intentions is not evil, and a bad outcome does not render intentions meaningless. Probably what you mean is that it's possible to be morally blameworthy for being ignorant of certain facts regarding the situation in which you are acting. That's definitely true, and it applies very strongly to Miko. Her reaction toward the OoTS here, and her likely actions because of it, are wrong because--at the very least--she ought to realize that there are other plausible explanations for why Xykon is still alive.



Interesting to note: Paladins must "help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends)" Does that mean if she helped an evil character, she would be stripped of paladin powers?
Not necessarily. This would only be the case if she knowingly helped someone achieve some evil purpose. If she was tricked through no fault of her own into doing so, she wouldn't fall.

Pilum
2006-11-08, 02:44 AM
... I think Pilum did a great effort in trying to change the stereotypes surrounding the paladin. However, for all your efforts, you acted towards the Samurai the same way you are urging people NOT to act towards the paladin...

Samurai are not "fighters wearing different clothes". Yes, one can play a samurai using the base fighter class...

Hi yAn, firstly, thanks for the compliment :) My point about the samurai was simply that one cannot point at how a samurai would behave and doom a paladin because of that, because standard samurai aren't paladins. To me, a samurai occupies the same social niche as the knight in the West, and no-one would call a standard knight a paladin, rather he's a fighter with a good ride skill, a certain level of equipment (viz, decent warhorse, heavy armour, lance), a certain societal status and a number of appropriate knowledge skills. Yes, he has his oaths of fealty, and the concept of chivalry as an ideal to live up to, but the number of civil wars and attempts at usurpation in world history (not just Europe) tell you what they're worth...

I think I see what you're getting at, that it's all a question of roleplaying, and I'd agree; the point is that rulebooks don't generally strip a samurai of all his abilities if he ever acts differently to that chambara movie the GM saw at 2 in the morning last month ;) (thinking about it, if I was to make a paladin in an Oriental setting, I'd be tempted to look more at basing it off a yamabushi or similar than a samurai...)

ETA: @ Holy_knight: again thanks (gosh, I need a blush icon!), I knew Bors, wasn't sure about Percival but I have a vague rememberance that they only saw a shining light, or that it was covered; I could be wrong here, of course, it's a while since I dug my Malory out!

xyzchyx
2006-11-08, 03:02 AM
This would only be the case if she knowingly helped someone achieve some evil purpose. If she was tricked through no fault of her own into doing so, she wouldn't fall.Actually, if she was tricked, she could still temporarily lose paladinhood... but could definitely reacquire it once she had atoned for her misdeeds, probably by questing or performing some important service for her deity. Of course, that's _only_ if she was tricked or charmed or whatnot... if she did it entirely voluntarily and with all awareness of what she was actually doing and what sort of evil person she was was helping, then it's a whole different picture.

Woolysock
2006-11-08, 03:03 AM
To address what you said in your spoiler...Xykon almost certainly has a better sense motive check than the Ogres did, so Miko bluffing in a manner similar to what you suggest would probably not be effective. If they let her live, anticipating that by the time the forcecage wears off, it will be too late (and then Xykon and Co will have an unwitting ally, Miko, who by this time would be too late to warn Azure City, will undoubtably go after the Order instead of following Xykon, who has many hours or even a couple of days lead time).

Well, as to that

Then its duelling high charismas, Paladin (Bluff) vs Sorcerer (Sense Motive), isn't it? If Xykon wins, as you suggest, then it's Undead Paladin time...
I predict Miko gets away. 200 gp on the wacky kung-fu chick! :-)

Zeb The Troll
2006-11-08, 03:28 AM
well then I have but one thing to say maybe he was an outsider before he was undead :P that or maybe Rich will bend the rules again or you know Miko wont become a blackguard which I hope will not happen :/
Not that I'm speculating this will happen, or hoping this will happen, but I think the point was that Xykon, though not an evil outsider himself, has the contacts to get one in the area that could satisfy the requirement.


Considering "CHA" doesn't necessarily mean being likeable, but force of personality, and evaluating the strength of the negative (&postive) responses to her, not to mention the fact she's apparently quite attractive (I love that picture someone made of her, which alas I have lost) I'd say her charisma is through the roof.
I didn't say she didn't have a high Charisma. I said I'm not sure what hers is. Though she seems to be getting a minus to her reaction modifiers judging by what we've seen so far (i.e. Vaarsuvius stating that s/he prefers Belkar to Miko, her Order sends her away, etc). Indeed strength of the negative responses is the most compelling argument for her having a charisma that is mediocre at best, especially for a paladin. And for what it's worth, I know the SRD includes comeliness in the characteristics of charisma, but I've always hated this. I know and know of plenty of attractive people that couldn't convince an alcoholic to drink.

The SRD says specifically, "Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness". She seems to have the physical attractiveness and the force of personality, but nothing else. So there you have it, I stand by my assertion that we have no evidence to support a high charisma score.


If she was tricked through no fault of her own into doing so, she wouldn't fall.
I disagree with this interpretation, but I would stipulate that if this were the case an atonement would be much, much easier to justify. But that's just me.

It occurs to me that she may be tricked into doing something harmful (though not likely as part of the current story arc) and as part of her atonement Shojo orders her to help the OotS to right her wrong. Note that I'm not speculating an alignment change, just a temporary suspension of her abilities.

Kish
2006-11-08, 03:39 AM
Well, as to that

Then its duelling high charismas, Paladin (Bluff) vs Sorcerer (Sense Motive), isn't it?

No, because Sense Motive is based on Wisdom.

Acksiom
2006-11-08, 05:17 AM
:miko: Those deceivers! I knew they could not be trusted to speak the truth, and they seem to have magically found a way to shield their duplicity. Twelve gods, let it be my righteous anger that brings their lies to justice!

:roy: I went to Fighter College because I wanted to help people. To protect the weak and --. The weak. Oh gods. Elan! Am I really so intent on wallowing in my own self-pity that I'm willing to cast a helpless innocent to those thieves? What is wrong with me? I'm a disgrace to my own alignment!

Pretty much says it all, doesn't it?

Lord Zentei
2006-11-08, 05:39 AM
On the other hand, Brin can claim to be among the top seven science fiction authors in the history of the field. The fact that he has won not only the Hugo, but also the Nebula, and the John W. Campbell Memorial awards makes me think that he might just know what he's talking about when he discusses science fiction. Although I could be snide and ask if you've published anything in the field, I won't. Instead, I'll just make the comment that perhaps you could restrict such violently negative comments to a less public arena. I understand that you've a right to your opinion, but there are less confrontational ways to express it.

I guess someone got promoted to moderator, and we were not informed. Congratulations on that.

As an aside, you might want to look up "appeal to authority fallacy" sometime. The fact that Brin has won awards does not mean he isn't full of it.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-08, 05:45 AM
Whoa. Reading the last few posts on the previous page, I had this idea of a romance between Redcloak and Miko that I thought of posting within spoiler tags. Not knowing I had already been beaten to it.

Heh, funny thing, I was thinking about something similar.

:miko: + :xykon: = LUV <3

Nah, I'm not serious.:smallbiggrin:

Eldhrin
2006-11-08, 06:04 AM
I honestly think Roy is a better example of a LG character than Miko is, but of course everyone seems to have a different take on the alignment system. I just happen to think anyone who's heart was really in the right place would be Good first, Lawful second.

Wouldn't that just make them Neutral Good? Miko and Roy, as far as I can see, both fit the Lawful Good template, but they approach it in a very different way. Roy gives people the benefit of the doubt, and tends to gather information before acting. What makes Miko so obnoxious is that she tends to start from a few assumptions:

1) Everyone else is evil until proven good
2) My conclusions are correct
3) Everyone who is good will support my actions

and go running off into a bloodbath without really thinking things through - beyond the tactics, that is, as we've seen she's very good at tactics.

If Miko loses her Paladin features due to a change in alignment, it's not going to be because she didn't think she was doing the right thing.

Renegade Paladin
2006-11-08, 07:30 AM
Who? Xykon? Who ever said that he had cleric levels?
Not Xykon. Redcloak.

Renegade Paladin
2006-11-08, 07:46 AM
Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law), anyone?
What about it? I don't seem to recall comparing Brin to Hitler.

Renegade Paladin
2006-11-08, 07:50 AM
On the other hand, Brin can claim to be among the top seven science fiction authors in the history of the field. The fact that he has won not only the Hugo, but also the Nebula, and the John W. Campbell Memorial awards makes me think that he might just know what he's talking about when he discusses science fiction. Although I could be snide and ask if you've published anything in the field, I won't. Instead, I'll just make the comment that perhaps you could restrict such violently negative comments to a less public arena. I understand that you've a right to your opinion, but there are less confrontational ways to express it.
When discussing liars, I will be as confrontational as I care to be. Brin has quite obviously either never watched Star Wars, or is lying about what he saw; in either case, I'm not going to feel very inclined to cut him slack when he's completely wrong. Besides, Brin wasn't talking about sci-fi per se; he was talking about the messages he perceives behind sci-fi. And since he evidently can't pick up on basic premises of the plot such as the fact that Jedi did not rule the galaxy, I feel justified in saying that no, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Considering "CHA" doesn't necessarily mean being likeable, but force of personality, and evaluating the strength of the negative (&postive) responses to her, not to mention the fact she's apparently quite attractive (I love that picture someone made of her, which alas I have lost) I'd say her charisma is through the roof.
Would you happen to mean this picture? (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/29518698/?&q=Miko+Miyazaki&qh=boost%3Apopular+age_sigma%3A24h+age_scale%3A5)

Shatteredtower
2006-11-08, 08:51 AM
Brin has quite obviously either never watched Star Wars, or is lying about what he saw...

Having talked (and disagreed) with Mr. Brin in person on the subject, I'm compelled to find the previous claim gravely mistaken. I found the man I talked to was quite familiar with the subject material, and he does a good job of expressing the reasons for his objection to it. Granted, he slants his argument heavily, but he's careful to know his material before he draws what you or I may find to be the wrong conclusion.

Even Mr. Brin's point about Hitler saving his son is not wrong if you are making a purely rational argument about morality. That's unfair within the context of the story, of course, since morality within Star Wars mythology transcends an atheist limit, in which it is difficult, if not impossible, to make a case for redemption after crimes on such scale. He raises a valid question, however: if Luke had managed to haul his father off the ship alive, then what? Vader's death conveniently sidesteps a very important moral question, and Brin puts it in exactly the right context.

Of course, you can assume I'm lying on the subject. It matters less than the fact that he was quite gracious in response to being called a small-minded idiot (by me) and in his apology -- though his follow-up lecture on the evils of Ralph Bakshi did not endear the man to me at all. Nevertheless, while I found him a bit rabid (and coming from me, I confess hypocrisy in this regard) in the manner in which he's presented more than a few of his views, I do not find him to be dishonest or careless in how he presents those views, even when I think he comes to faulty conclusions. I certainly can't find him lax in his attention to detail either.


And since he evidently can't pick up on basic premises of the plot such as the fact that Jedi did not rule the galaxy, I feel justified in saying that no, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

You're either wrong in making that claim or you're overstating your disagreement with his conclusions. You may not believe it, but there's plenty of reason to believe that Lucas' vision gave us a Jedi shadow government overseeing all affairs that were of importance to them. Granted, they weren't very good at it (and less likely to demonstrate their dissatisfaction with dissent through genocide than the Empire was) but they seemed answerable to no one in their role of judge, jury, and executioner -- or guardian, if you prefer a more politically sensitive word. Now one can easily deny all of those arguments with excellent counter-arguments, or even just fall back on George Lucas' feelings on the matter, but art (and is it my imagination, or did I just hear a thousand critics wince in horror for my use of that word?) remains very much open to interpretation by the viewer. We wouldn't have as much to study in literature if there was only one way to interpret most of it, after all.

What, do you think the Giant's vision of what's happening in his comic is always the most correct one? ;) (Lest you find this an arrogant claim, I'm not claiming I've ever been more right about what he's going on than he has. I just don't deny the possibility that someone can be. He wouldn't be the first writer forced to concede that point to someone else.)

Shatteredtower
2006-11-08, 08:55 AM
What about it? I don't seem to recall comparing Brin to Hitler.

I could be wrong, but I think Godwin's Law was invoked because Mr. Brin draws a comparison between Mr. Skywalker and Mr. H.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-08, 09:05 AM
Having talked (and disagreed) with Mr. Brin in person on the subject, I'm compelled to find the previous claim gravely mistaken. I found the man I talked to was quite familiar with the subject material, and does a good job of expressing the reasons for his objection to it.

He does not show that in his article, as the article I linked to indicated in a point by point rebuttal.


Granted, he slants his argument heavily, he is careful to know his material before he gets it wrong.

No, he does not.


Even Mr. Brin's point about Hitler saving his son is not wrong if you are making a purely rational argument about morality. That's unfair within the context of the story, of course, since morality within Star Wars mythology transcends an atheist limit, in which it is difficult, if not impossible, to make a case for redemption after crimes on such scale. He raises a valid question, however: if Luke had managed to haul his father off the ship alive, then what? Vader's death conveniently sidesteps a very important moral question, and Brin puts it in exactly the right context.

And as was shown, the only person attending Vader's pyre was Luke. The celebrations were held elsewhere, and Luke stood alone. The celebrations were for the death of the emperor and the fall of the empire, they were not for Vader at all.

As for the answer to the question of what would have happened: Vader chose a course of action that he knew would lead to his own death in an effort to save his son, his own concience and the galaxy at large. And you and Brin really need to ask whether he would have accepted responsibility for his actions and whatever punishment that would have entailed when he essentially alerady made that descision by himself?


Of course, you can assume I'm lying on the subject. It matters less than the fact that he was quite gracious in response to being called a small-minded idiot (by me) and in his apology -- though his follow-up lecture on the evils of Ralph Bakshi did not endear the man to me at all. Nevertheless, while I found him a bit rabid (and coming from me, I confess hypocrisy in this regard) in the manner in which he's presented more than a few of his views, I do not find him to be dishonest or careless in his views, even when I think he comes to faulty conclusions. I certainly can't find him lax in his attention to detail either.

I really fail to see how that is of any significance.


You're either wrong in making that claim or you're overstating your disagreement with his conclusions. You may not believe it, but there's plenty of reason to believe that Lucas' vision gave us a Jedi shadow government overseeing all affairs that were of importance to them. Granted, they weren't very good at it (and less likely to demonstrate their dissatisfaction with dissent through genocide than the Empire was) but they seemed answerable to no one in their role of judge, jury, and executioner -- or guardian, if you prefer a more politically sensitive word.

They seemed more aloof and cynical about the political process to me. The very fact they were alienated from the Senate and politicians was the problem. And in any case, the fact that they were "going bad" so to speak was the very reason they fell. It was NOT, as Brin seems to beleive, the situation that was meant to be.


Now one can easily deny all of those arguments with excellent counter-arguments, or even just fall back on George Lucas' feelings on the matter, but art (and is it my imagination, or did I just hear a thousand critics wince in horror for my use of that word?) remains very much open to interpretation by the viewer. We wouldn't have as much to study in literature if there was only one way to interpret most of it, after all.

There are limits to that, said limits being obvious factual errors. More significantly, one opens oneself to criticism in so doing.

Haarculaneaum
2006-11-08, 09:23 AM
Dear Shattered Lord,
These arguments, unfortunately, don't work very well to prove a point. Nor do they seem to change minds. There seems to be two factions on this point -- those who think that author intent = truth and those who think that published material = open to interpretation.
I have tried to find a common ground before but have not been able to (generally in Elan & Miko discussions).

Unfortunately, the interpretation of Literature is more like Religion than it is like Mathematics. As such, people are much less willing to give up their points of view or admit the POVs of others.

Having said that, Lucas's world, like the world of any Author (including OOTS) is viewed by many people in many different ways. Brin obviously argues his point in a ham-fisted fashion. Perhaps if we agree on this (and agree to avoid ham-fisted-ness [moi included]) we can get to some more salient discussions.

Haar

Telinyth
2006-11-08, 09:40 AM
I guess someone got promoted to moderator, and we were not informed. Congratulations on that.

As an aside, you might want to look up "appeal to authority fallacy" sometime. The fact that Brin has won awards does not mean he isn't full of it.

My point wasn't that Brin is an obvious authority -- the fact that he is a brilliant writer does not make him infalliable. In fact, if you read a little more closely, I said I would not take that route, as I can acknowledge that it is petty. I only meant to comment that as a reader on this thread, I was a bit offended by the violently negative imagery that the individual utilized.

Further, your sarcasm is unwarranted, and somewhat offensive. Is the expression of an opinion no longer permissable without personal attacks?

Telinyth
2006-11-08, 09:50 AM
When discussing liars, I will be as confrontational as I care to be. Brin has quite obviously either never watched Star Wars, or is lying about what he saw; in either case, I'm not going to feel very inclined to cut him slack when he's completely wrong. Besides, Brin wasn't talking about sci-fi per se; he was talking about the messages he perceives behind sci-fi. And since he evidently can't pick up on basic premises of the plot such as the fact that Jedi did not rule the galaxy, I feel justified in saying that no, he doesn't know what he's talking about. [/URL]

That's more along the lines of the sort of argument that I would view as an acceptable response: you have stated your position without resorting to excessively confrontational mannerisms, and have backed it up with a couple points. Thanks. Much better than simple reactionary posting, which does nothing but incite further knee-jerk reactions (mine, for instance, lol). It is the laconic expression of opinions that inspires most misinterpretations, in my experience.

I, of course, have my own opinions on the Star Wars "mythology", but it would be inappropriate to detail them in this forum, as it is not an applicable argument.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-08, 09:51 AM
My point wasn't that Brin is an obvious authority -- the fact that he is a brilliant writer does not make him infalliable. In fact, if you read a little more closely, I said I would not take that route, as I can acknowledge that it is petty. I only meant to comment that as a reader on this thread, I was a bit offended by the violently negative imagery that the individual utilized.

Yes you did. Even if you added a "I won't go this route", if you then go and say it, that is precisely what you are doing. For instance: if I were to say "heh, I might go and accuse you of playing moderator, but I won't go that route", then I am, indirectly, insinuating that you have indeed been playing moderator and mealy mouthed addendums won't change that.


Further, your sarcasm is unwarranted, and somewhat offensive. Is the expression of an opinion no longer permissable without personal attacks?

Quit complaining. And incidentally, I find it highly ironic that you are not only indulging in personal attacks yourself, even though you are obfusticating this fact with a veneer of pseudo-civility, but are complaining that you are not being allowed to express your opinion, when you seem to be attacking others for expressing theirs. My admonition was made in good faith and in good humour; I suggest you try not to be so damned sensetive if you wish to participate in discussions.


EDIT: Incidentally, the fact that Brin is a writer does not make him an authority to the extent that obvious factual errors can be excused.

TinSoldier
2006-11-08, 10:00 AM
Not Xykon. Redcloak.Okay, but I thought we were talking about Xykon before your post. That's why I was confused.

Coffee_Dragon
2006-11-08, 10:07 AM
I just happen to think anyone who's heart was really in the right place would be Good first, Lawful second.

Does that mean anyone who's just plain old True Neutral doesn't have any chance of "having their heart in the right place"? They're not even Good.

It is interesting that so many people (not necessarily you) think that Lawful somehow "cancels" Good, so that a Lawful Good person can be expected to be much meaner in the end than someone who's, say, CG or N or CN. That's not really how alignments are supposed to be interpreted, I think. Each component stands regardless of the other.

Also: I apologize to all for bringing up David Brin in the first place.

Telinyth
2006-11-08, 10:11 AM
Yes you did. Even if you added a "I won't go this route", if you then go and say it, that is precisely what you are doing. For instance: if I were to say "heh, I might go and accuse you of playing moderator, but I won't go that route", then I am, indirectly, insinuating that you have indeed been playing moderator and mealy mouthed addendums won't change that.

In actual fact, the terminology I employed was "I could be snide, [...] but I won't." By acknowledging the negativity of that comment, I had hoped to defuse it. Although it was not directed at you, I should like to offer my apologies if you were offended by it. That was not my intention.




Quit complaining. And incidentally, I find it highly ironic that you are not only indulging in personal attacks yourself, even though you are obfusticating this fact with a veneer of pseudo-civility, but are complaining that you are not being allowed to express your opinion, when you seem to be attacking others for expressing theirs. My admonition was made in good faith and in good humour; I suggest you try not to be so damned sensetive if you wish to participate in discussions.


EDIT: Incidentally, the fact that Brin is a writer does not make him an authority to the extent that obvious factual errors can be excused.

Admittedly, my response to you was defensive, as I find it difficult to view sarcasm as anything other than ill-intentioned. As to my "attacking others [for expressing their opinions]": I purposely tried to avoid this, and really only intended to make the comment that the argument posited could have been couched in less disagreeable terminology.

Pseudo-civility? I don't believe I've ever been described like that before! In all honesty, the impassioned furor over my comments is a bit astonishing. Again, my apologies if you've recieved the wrong impression about me.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-08, 10:21 AM
In actual fact, the terminology I employed was "I could be snide, [...] but I won't." By acknowledging the negativity of that comment, I had hoped to defuse it. Although it was not directed at you, I should like to offer my apologies if you were offended by it. That was not my intention.

No harm done. :smallwink: It's just that I have run afoul of too many people who pretend civility all the while sniping at their opponent for not being civil when disagreements arise.


Admittedly, my response to you was defensive, as I find it difficult to view sarcasm as anything other than ill-intentioned.

Ah, well. That's probably where we differ. I'll add more :smallwink: smileys in the future.


As to my "attacking others [for expressing their opinions]": I purposely tried to avoid this, and really only intended to make the comment that the argument posited could have been couched in less disagreeable terminology.

Pseudo-civility? I don't believe I've ever been described like that before! In all honesty, the impassioned furor over my comments is a bit astonishing. Again, my apologies if you've recieved the wrong impression about me.

LOL - I guess we have a Girard vs Soon type situation going on here.

I tend to snap a bit from time to time, but only seldom with genuine anger (i.e. only if my opponet is a genuine tard, and if the forum allows flames). As far as ettiquette is concerned, however, I tend to prefer "cards on the table" so to speak; after all, words are just that.

Telinyth
2006-11-08, 10:26 AM
LOL - I guess we have a Girard vs Soon type situation going on here.

I tend to snap a bit from time to time, but only seldom with genuine anger (i.e. only if my opponet is a genuine tard, and if the forum allows flames). As far as ettiquette is concerned, however, I tend to prefer "cards on the table" so to speak; after all, words are just that.

Truce, then?

Lord Zentei
2006-11-08, 10:27 AM
Truce, then?

Sure. :smallbiggrin:

Vendettas are silly things. Life's too short. :smallwink:

GKBeetle
2006-11-08, 10:28 AM
Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

I don't know if anybody else already posted that, but that's what Yoda said.

Telinyth
2006-11-08, 10:29 AM
Sure. :smallbiggrin:

Vendettas are silly things. Life's too short. :smallwink:

Good, because if I don't get out the door PDQ, they're going to miss me in the lab! :biggrin:

taraxia
2006-11-08, 10:45 AM
well then I have but one thing to say maybe he was an outsider before he was undead :P that or maybe Rich will bend the rules again or you know Miko wont become a blackguard which I hope will not happen :/

1) Outsiders can't become undead. An Outsider's body dissipates when it's killed. Its soul and its body are one, unlike a corporeal being's.

2) In any case, we've seen Xykon before he became a lich, in flashback, and he was a man (and a quite dashing-looking one at that).

taraxia
2006-11-08, 10:54 AM
Forcecage = no saving throw + no spell resistance.
God, Jesus, Buddha, and Xenu couldn't save against a Forcecage.
Ch*ck Norr*s himself couldn't even save against one, though it's likely a Forcecage would probably disintegrate itself rather than enclose him, roundhouses being what they are and all.

Haar

If any of these beings are of Divine Rank 6 or higher, Forcecage won't work on them in the first place, as they will be immune to all imprisoning or banishment effects.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-08, 11:02 AM
If any of these beings are of Divine Rank 6 or higher, Forcecage won't work on them in the first place, as they will be immune to all imprisoning or banishment effects.

Verily. But they still don't specifically get a save, though. :smalltongue:

Incidentally, it would probably work on Xenu - in the Scientology mythos, he is not a divine being, but an evil space emperor who was, in fact, ultimately imprisoned. :smallwink:

Zeb The Troll
2006-11-08, 11:08 AM
What about it? I don't seem to recall comparing Brin to Hitler.
See below...

I could be wrong, but I think Godwin's Law was invoked because Mr. Brin draws a comparison between Mr. Skywalker and Mr. H.
This was, ineed, where I was going with that.

The Hammer of Thor
2006-11-08, 11:57 AM
This is getting interesting.
But if Miko goes bad, won't she lose all her paladin powers?
And the roaches are back!

Tharj TreeSmiter
2006-11-08, 12:48 PM
yes she would lose palidin powers but there is a whole class for fallen paladins and they get new powers/abilities.