Level Adjustment question

[ReaderAt2046]

So I know that when a character plays certain monsters as races he has to pay a penalty in levels. For example, suppose Bob wants to play an Janni in a 7th-starting-level campaign. He can do that, but he only gets two levels in character classes, the other five being used to pay the Level Adjustment fee.

So my question is, what happens if the Level Adjustment is greater than the actual number of levels a character has. For example, suppose Bob wanted to play that same Janni, but the campaign only started at third level. What should we do? Do we give him one level plus his racial bonuses (which would make him level 6) and just not let him advance any levels until everyone else catches up? Do we give him some of his racial traits but not others? Do we rule that he simply cannot play the character he wants? What?

[Matticussama]

The book Savage Species introduced the ability to take levels in a monster "class" so that players can play monstrous creatures that they normally couldn't play due to LA & racial HD. Some of the level progressions are good and some are terribly bad, but the concept itself is great.

There is a really great guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928) on all of the in and out for playing Monstrous races which you should definitely read if you want clarification or a better understanding on the topic.

[KillianHawkeye]

First of all, a Janni has a Level Adjustment of +5 on top of its 6 racial Hit Dice, making it an 11th level character out of the box. LA is in addition to RHD.

Secondly, if you're starting at a lower level that the ECL of the race that one of your players wants to be, most DMs would simply say they cannot be of that race. It would be like saying one player can start at a higher level than the others. Maybe that's okay in your games, but personally I've never heard of anybody allowing that.

[lunar2]

actually, i once DM'ed a campaign with the ruling that you could start with a template or LA race (but no more than 1 RHD). you got all the benefits of your template right then, but you were still a beginning adventurer like everyone else. so you got only the starting gold for your class, you started at 0 xp, etc.

there was a skarn half dragon fighter in the party (i made houserule that let him get all 4 natural weapon attacks, and he was going to go into spinemeld warrior for the twf with his spines). it really wasn't that unbalancing. he was harder to hit, and he hit harder, but he still went down in one hit just like everyone else, and i proved it to him in a fight against an actual 4th level fighter when he started getting arrogant.

[Deaxsa]

actually, i once DM'ed a campaign with the ruling that you could start with a template or LA race (but no more than 1 RHD). you got all the benefits of your template right then, but you were still a beginning adventurer like everyone else. so you got only the starting gold for your class, you started at 0 xp, etc.

there was a skarn half dragon fighter in the party (i made houserule that let him get all 4 natural weapon attacks, and he was going to go into spinemeld warrior for the twf with his spines). it really wasn't that unbalancing. he was harder to hit, and he hit harder, but he still went down in one hit just like everyone else, and i proved it to him in a fight against an actual 4th level fighter when he started getting arrogant.

first of all, having 1 RHD, in RAW, means that you don't get any RHD when you take class levels (of which basically must have at least one to be a PC)
second, nice job on bringing your player down a notch ;)

as for the OP, well, I personally would not allow it. another thing i would do might be to make him take lower base stats first, so that he's really only doing it for the special abilities, not the stat increases. finaly, if you absolutely HAVE to let bob play that race in a low-level party, you could make up some serious in-game consequences for him being that race, for instance, there's some serious bad blood between his race and EVERYBODY. what it really breaks down to is leveling the playing field: i'd let my players do that.. if the special race character had about the same power as any other member of the party.

[lunar2]

some races, like (pixie or nixie?) have an actual RHD, not class levels. while i would certainly allow that rhd to be swapped (raw is vague here, and can be interpreted yes or no), i wouldn't force them to. but it never came up. the half dragon was the only one who actually took a template. everyone else was core races.

[Deaxsa]

some races, like (pixie or nixie?) have an actual RHD, not class levels. while i would certainly allow that rhd to be swapped (raw is vague here, and can be interpreted yes or no), i wouldn't force them to. but it never came up. the half dragon was the only one who actually took a template. everyone else was core races.

i always thought that RHD was a limiting factor, unless you're an outsider or a dragon. for instance: monstrous humaoids get very little for their RHD, and the lack of class features is the REAL kicker.

[lunar2]

it's also a personal choice, because raw on the matter is vague for non-humanoids. and there's also niche cases like were-rats, where it's vague even for humanoids.

[MeiLeTeng]

some races, like (pixie or nixie?) have an actual RHD, not class levels. while i would certainly allow that rhd to be swapped (raw is vague here, and can be interpreted yes or no), i wouldn't force them to. but it never came up. the half dragon was the only one who actually took a template. everyone else was core races.


A pixie character exchanges its 1 HD of fey for its first class level.

What's vague about that?

[Greenish]

i proved it to him in a fight against an actual 4th level fighter when he started getting arrogant.As you've noticed, LA tends to be weaker than class levels (or in other words, most critters have too high LA).


first of all, having 1 RHD, in RAW, means that you don't get any RHD when you take class levels (of which basically must have at least one to be a PC)Some read that as applying only to humanoids, though.


i always thought that RHD was a limiting factor, unless you're an outsider or a dragon. for instance: monstrous humaoids get very little for their RHD, and the lack of class features is the REAL kicker.Full BAB and two good saves. You could do worse (say, humanoid).

[lunar2]

how did i ever miss that line?

still were-rats are in a weird place, and the vagueness in the general rule still stands.

[TuggyNE]

Some read that as applying only to humanoids, though.

Given the context of Monsters As Races (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#otherStatisticsforMonsters), that seems highly improbable.

[Greenish]

Given the context of Monsters As Races (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#otherStatisticsforMonsters), that seems highly improbable.Some read the books, not the SRD. :smallwink:

[Deaxsa]

Full BAB and two good saves. You could do worse (say, humanoid).

fair enough, but i really was referring to the lack of class abilities.


Some read the books, not the SRD. :smallwink:

Isn't it in savage species? where does the SRD get that info? (not defensive, actually curious now)
edit: found it, page 13 of Savage Species, in the blurb at the bottom of the page. And it refers to 'monsters,' for what that's worth. it does, however, say that dropping the one monster HD is OPTIONAL(although it has really weird rules about skills and feats if you don't drop it).

[TuggyNE]

it does, however, say that dropping the one monster HD is OPTIONAL(although it has really weird rules about skills and feats if you don't drop it).

Yeah, I believe the deal is that you can drop your first HD if you want, unless you're a Humanoid, in which case you have to.

[Thurbane]

If you want to play a Janni-type character starting at 7th level, you could look at the Half-Janni template in Sandstom (p. 164). Its a LA+3 template, so if you put it on a LA+0 humanoid like a Human, you could have 4 class levels at ECL 7.