How balanced would you say this is?

[LTwerewolf]

To try to make shields a bit better, I've been thinking about a few things to make them more appealing.

First: improved shield slam is innate to any class that has shield proficiency.

Second: you can use an attack of opportunity to make an opposed attack roll with your shield to block an attack.

[limejuicepowder]

1) decent, but not nearly enough to make shields worth it. Bashing is only any good if the character specializes in it, and even then it's inferior to a THW.

2) when do you picture this ability being used? Any out of the box action that triggers an AoO isn't an attack, thus blocking would be useless. Alternatively, you have the Robilar's Gambit feat and shields are suddenly an absolute must-have (to the point of making Robilar's Gambit a must-have).

This still doesn't address animated shields, which negates almost all reasons why a character would actually use a sword and board style.

Edit: In all, I don't think this is particularly unbalanced, but I also don't think it's going to accomplish what you want it to. The blocking ability would basically give all melee character a 50% chance to avoid attacks from similarly CR'd enemies, but you'd also be giving them a 50% miss chance (I assume other character and intelligent monsters would employ the same tactics). And since it doesn't protect them in the slightest from spells, it's kind of a nerf to mundanes. Just my 2 cents of course.

[Xerxus]

I would say that boosting the shield archetypes especially for Fighters would accomplish a balance. As is, Tower Shield Specialists are nice, but you could grant almost every single one of those class abilities at level 1 and still not be good. If it could retain one count of weapon training then it would actually be viable.

[XionUnborn01]

Instead of using a opposed attack roll, you could do something along the lines of giving them a "block chance" a large steel shield is normally +2 AC, why not make is +2 AC and then a 5%+5% per point of dex modifier to block an incoming attack as long as it's not targeting touch AC. this along with letting large shields block LOS or LOE possibly, and giving a bonus on Ref saves against area effects.

[limejuicepowder]

Instead of using a opposed attack roll, you could do something along the lines of giving them a "block chance" a large steel shield is normally +2 AC, why not make is +2 AC and then a 5%+5% per point of dex modifier to block an incoming attack as long as it's not targeting touch AC. this along with letting large shields block LOS or LOE possibly, and giving a bonus on Ref saves against area effects.

I don't like the notion of static miss chances - with this, a high dex commoner is better with a shield than a 20th level fighter with low dex. If you want it to scale, it should absolutely be tied to a level-based figure: probably base attack bonus.

[ArcturusV]

Eh. I'd think that touch should apply for shields automatically. A mage comes in with a shocking grasp? I should be able to bash his hand aside with my shield giving him nothing to use the spell on. Shooting a Ray at me? I should be able to deflect it with my shield (Particularly if it's a magical shield, jeeze).

The animated shield thing needs to just be dropped. As long as it exists everyone is going to ask "Why use a shield and weapon when I can use two weapons or two handed weapons and STILL have a shield"?

Applying to Reflex makes sense. If a rogue can basically just step somewhere within a 5' square to completely ignore a Reflex based attack, why could a fighter not use a shield similarly?

The block chance thing is... okay. Maybe have it BAB based and require a feat (So every goblin warrior doesn't get some 50% miss chance). So take a Blocker feat. Have it be a Fighter bonus feat (Requiring a feat may be a good reason why every roughly humanoid enemy you run into won't have it, or spellcasters and other less martial characters). Say something like you have a 20% chance, plus 2% per BAB to block an incoming attack, touch attack, or ranged touch attack. This costs you an attack of opportunity. This is block is done before the attack roll is made against you.

[Phelix-Mu]

The animated shield thing needs to just be dropped. As long as it exists everyone is going to ask "Why use a shield and weapon when I can use two weapons or two handed weapons and STILL have a shield"?


Animated shield is viable because every wizard worth their salt has a shield bonus, as do most gishes, even without the actual shield. Saying only spellcasters can benefit from this type of bonus to AC is adding to built-in unfairness to martial-centric builds, adding to AC disparity between high-level casters and martial types.

[ArcturusV]

Maybe. Though I'm not in favor of having everything for nothing. Which I guess is why I don't typically like playing Clerics and Wizards. Buffing shields... then allowing fighters to have an animated shield with all the shield benefits, but still be swinging the clearly superior two handed weapon of choice, just seems like a bad idea in general as far as making martial combat options more interesting (though maybe not on the Martial vs Arcane axis).

I mean ideally (And I don't think I'm smart enough to reach that point), there should be a point where fighting Sword and Board makes as much logical sense as just two handed power bashing.

And since martial characters are already in the hole I don't think nerfing that is generally the right way to go. Though Animated Shield keeps getting called out every time someone mentions this lately as "Pssh, still, why bother when I can have both?" Same as armor spikes and two-weapon fighting, but that's another thing and I don't think is as bad as the Animated Shield as far as neutralizing an entire combat style as an option.

Which suggests that it's a problem that is going to have to be addressed if you ever want a sword and board to make sense as a viable, decent alternative. Otherwise all you're doing is making the Two Hander bashing even more powerful and widening the gap between it and other combat styles.

[Phelix-Mu]

So maybe allow Shield Proficiency to work like Deflect Arrow feat? Block the first incoming melee attack each round? Not sure if it should also block incoming missile attacks; I guess flavor-wise the answer is "yes." Zweihanding barbarian ain't got no shield, so he gets to soak the damage that the sword-boarder is ignoring. Ignore the first attack is also good against Power Attackers. I find Deflect Arrows to be extremely useful for monsters, and this stands to have many more orcs packing shields.

[ArcturusV]

Maybe. So first Melee attack, ranged, Touch, or Touch Ranged is what I'd say.

[Curmudgeon]

One house rule I use occasionally is to improve shield bonuses:

buckler: +2
light shield: +3
heavy shield +4
tower shield: +5
Of course, to keep this from just being a boost to spellcasters, the Animated shield property then changes from +2 cost to +4 cost. :smallwink:

[Slipperychicken]

A mage comes in with a shocking grasp? I should be able to bash his hand aside with my shield giving him nothing to use the spell on.

What if I told you

Your shield and armor conduct electricity, so he can shock you through it.

[ArcturusV]

Wood is a typically poor conductor, nor is iron or steel really that great of a conductor. Not to mention even metal armors have leather and padding underneath them which is also poor conductors. The "it's magic" theory can be used. But then equally valid is the "I smack your hand away causing you to misfire as you try to lay a hand on me" theory.

[Yogibear41]

What if I told you

Your shield and armor conduct electricity, so he can shock you through it.

You sir made me laugh :smallsmile:

but what if he told you his shield and armor weren't made of metal :smallsmile:

Blue Dragon armor ftw or Bronze if ye be evil

[satorian]

If you want to make the shield viable to level 20, it will have to a) auto-block an attack or two, or b) provide a miss chance, or c) provide a stun or daze attack every round. Maybe all three. The power attack bonus granted to two-handers are just too huge, especially as base and strength damage go up.

[NotScaryBats]

What if you have a magic shield, you gain the ability(or are allowed to buy the ability) to reflect stuff? Like, reflect rays a la Tarrasque back at their casters.

Shields could give you Evasion, so you take half damage as you block 'most of the attack' with your shield.

Maybe give shields a way to negate SR no stuff? Like, even your "no save, just die" spell can be thwarted in some way by a shield?

Giving sword and boarders really strong defenses could make up for their lack of offense. That's kinda the point of the build, after all.

Finally, you could also implement a "hey, come fight me" sort of mechanic, to make it so things don't just ignore you. The Knight's kit of abilities is a start, so is 4e "Mark" mechanic, that gives things a penalty for not attacking you (rather than forcing them to attack you)

All of these could be tied to fighter feats / certain classes however you wanted to balance it (so it isn't just all of a sudden everyone has a shield).

[TuggyNE]

Maybe give shields a way to negate SR no stuff? Like, even your "no save, just die" spell can be thwarted in some way by a shield?

If they can deflect ranged touch attacks they'd be fine for nearly all cases; the only ways to kill someone without save and without touch attacks are extremely cheesy.

[Yogibear41]

Shields could give you Evasion, so you take half damage as you block 'most of the attack' with your shield.

I think I remember a class ability that allowed you to do fortitude saves instead of an evasion save, where you basically just manned up and endured the attack to reduce the damage. I think this would make more sense for a shield ability in addition most of the would be shield weilders generally have better fortitude saves than relfex saves. Anything fortitude related could help make sure the abilities helped a legit melee fighter more than to a mage with a floating magic shield.

[ButtSoup]

The alternate AC rule of replacing the base +10 with a d20 roll could be applied specifically to shield users in your game (or something like it)??
Instead of a static bonus to AC, you get to make a 'block roll' with bonuses from your BAB. So a level 5 fighter with 10 dex, full plate and a heavy shield (normally AC 20) would have an AC of 18, and get to make a block attempt on any (or maybe just the first) attack in the round. The block is at +7 (BAB +5 and shield +2), and if it beats the attack roll- it's blocked.
It opens a whole new realm of focus for character types... but potentially slows down combat with additional dice rolls... so I'd test it out first (i have not... just crapping out ideas)

Edit: forgot to mention: the block bonus could be more depending on strength bonus.

[Clistenes]

Animated shield is viable because every wizard worth their salt has a shield bonus, as do most gishes, even without the actual shield. Saying only spellcasters can benefit from this type of bonus to AC is adding to built-in unfairness to martial-centric builds, adding to AC disparity between high-level casters and martial types.

I loathe the animated shield...it looks just too ridiculous. I would rather use an enchanted buckler strapped to the forearm even if it offers a bit lower shield bonus and reduces my attack bonus by -1.

[LTwerewolf]

Well see my idea was to make it useful, and make it viable with some of the changes i made to the fighter class. I made it similar to ranger where it gets combat styles. One is two handed, one is TWF, one is archery, and the last is sword and board. A couple of these suggestions are already part of the sword and board fighter. The spell reflection, for example, is already there a certain number of times per day based on their CON. They also get the parrying shield feat as a bonus feat at a bit of a low level. The only open bonus feats that they get are for level 1 and 2 of fighter, to make dips worth the same as they were before.

I also wanted to give a reason for fighters to take combat reflexes, to give themselves more block chances if they wanted to burn a feat on it.

[Greenish]

I also wanted to give a reason for fighters to take combat reflexesYou say that like there was any reason for a fighter with sufficient dexterity not to take it. :smallconfused:

[LTwerewolf]

You say that like there was any reason for a fighter with sufficient dexterity not to take it. :smallconfused:

Our fighters never touched it, since none of them have ever had more than a 13 dexterity.

[Gotterdammerung]

To try to make shields a bit better, I've been thinking about a few things to make them more appealing.

First: improved shield slam is innate to any class that has shield proficiency.

Second: you can use an attack of opportunity to make an opposed attack roll with your shield to block an attack.

I've houserule fixed shields b4 and it worked out pretty well. Basically, instead of shields adding to AC, I made them deflect physical attacks on a 5% chance per AC. I capped the miss chance at 75% (in regular rules this would be a shield with a +15 shield bonus to ac, kinda hard to get but i figured better to hard cap it). You can set the hard cap much lower if you want (25%-50%), I just wanted to reward builds that dropped lots of character resources into raising the shield power. Spells that gave shield bonuses instead gave the miss chance, but shield mischances didn't stack from different sources.

I added a feat and a special material and a shield enhancement (+3 bonus enhancement) that all essentially did the same thing, allowed the miss chance to apply to magical attacks.

So basically, a miss chance versus attack rolls is similar to an AC bump except against a high accuracy opponent having the hard capped % miss is more effective. This made the shield scale better as a defensive option.

And the extra homebrewed options for applying the miss chance to magical attack rolls gave melee's a bit of extra defense vs magic.


I think it worked out well. Player's were sufficiently enticed to try to incorporate shields into their repertoire. And it didn't break any encounters. And it was evenly powerful for the monsters and the players.

(The player that made the most out of it was an incarnum with a +5 greater soulbound Spellshield (the new enchantment that let the miss chance apply yo magic) extreme steel shield, the shield specialization feat. He kept the 4 essentia invested in it to give him a +14 shield bonus which translates into a 70% miss chance on all attack rolls. )

[Jerthanis]

Our fighters never touched it, since none of them have ever had more than a 13 dexterity.

Combat Reflexes is practically must-have for any martial melee character who can qualify for it.

However, one of the reasons it's must-have is to put it on a guy using a Reach weapon to expand your area of control, and there aren't one handed reach weapons, so making it more attractive for Sword and Board does make some kind of sense.

In fact, in the 'totally-nothing-like-Pathfinder' alternative 3.5 ruleset update "Trailblazer", there are uses for Opportunity Actions other than attacking, and those include dodging and blocking incoming attacks. In that ruleset, you get more opportunity actions as you get iterative attacks, and dodging gives you a bonus to AC related to your Base Attack in some way and blocking requires a shield and gives you bonus DR related to the shield's bonus.

However, in that system Combat Reflexes only adds your Dex modifier to your Base Attack for determining how many you get, which makes it useless at many levels unless you have +5 or better Dex modifier in which case it's giving you just one more than a normal character of your class and level would have.

[satorian]

I like that miss chance thing. Do you allow shield miss chance (which can't stack with itself) to stack with other sources of miss chance (incorporeality, blur etc.)?

[Gotterdammerung]

I like that miss chance thing. Do you allow shield miss chance (which can't stack with itself) to stack with other sources of miss chance (incorporeality, blur etc.)?

Yes, in a sense.

Example: Incorporeal with a +4 shield bonus. Roll 50% for incorporeal miss chance. If you succeed at the incorporeal miss chance, then roll 20% miss chance for the shield.

It wouldn't be one roll against a 70% chance, so they wouldn't "stack" in that way. But they would overlap.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The AoO to make an opposed attack roll to block an attack wouldn't ever really happen. Even Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike wouldn't help because those AoOs only happen after the opponent's attack has been resolved.

Edit: Didn't even read the thread before posting this, leaving it up though.

I'd add on a flat miss chance for anyone using a held shield, similar to concealment. Something like nothing for a buckler, 10% for a small shield, 20% for a large shield, 30% for an extreme shield from RoS, and 40% for a tower shield. These of course would not stack with any other miss chance, such as for concealment. The tower shield miss chance wouldn't apply if you're using it for cover from a particular direction. These miss chances would not apply to animated shields, because it represents a character's ability to react to an attack by moving the shield to block it, and a shield hovering nearby doesn't do that. Flanking an opponent would allow you to completely ignore this miss chance.

Maybe even make a new shield enchantment that increases that miss chance. Lesser Blocking for +10% priced at +1, Blocking for +20% priced at +3, and Greater Blocking for +30% priced at +5. Joe Fighter or Mr. Crusader in the moderate-high levels with a +1 Greater Blocking tower shield would have a 70% chance for every attack against him to automatically miss, unless it's from an opponent that's flanking him.

[Curmudgeon]

... and there aren't one handed reach weapons, so making it more attractive for Sword and Board does make some kind of sense.
Kusari-gama (Dungeon Master's Guide, pages 144-145).

[Greenish]

Kusari-gama (Dungeon Master's Guide, pages 144-145).And Spinning Sword (Secrets of Sarlona, pages 136-137).

Yes, one-handed reach weapons are so long, they span pages.


And even without a reach weapon, one could get some mileage out of Hold the Line (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#holdTheLine).

[Slipperychicken]

And even without a reach weapon, one could get some mileage out of Hold the Line (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#holdTheLine).

Reach Polearm w/ Hold The Line and Combat Reflexes, readied against a charge = 1 attack for double damage + 1 AoO for entering threatened square + 1 AoO for leaving threatened square. So it's like you hit him 4 times before he gets a swing in.

[Greenish]

Reach Polearm w/ Hold The Line and Combat Reflexes, readied against a charge = 1 attack for double damage + 1 AoO for entering threatened square + 1 AoO for leaving threatened square. So it's like you hit him 4 times before he gets a swing in.Add Steadfast Boots (MIC, you're always readied while holding a two-hander) and an Intercepting weapon (FoW, free attack with double damage vs. charging, tripping, etc. foe).