[3.5] Help me Build An assassin!!

[Lazarus]

So i'm looking to make a stealthy assassin type character. But my group doesn't do prestige classes. are there any base classes or anything at all i can do to build a good assassin type character.. please help..all books and races are open.. i thought about rogue/swashbuckler with the daring outlaw feat...but it just doesn't feel right...i wanna be more stealthy...the DM is working on making poison use a feat... im not sure if this matters but i usually play my character as EVIL as i can :smallamused:

[Daftendirekt]

But my group doesn't do prestige classes.

What.

Why.

Do you realize how huge a portion of 3.5 content you're cutting yourself off from with that action? Just go play 4e except never progress past heroic. You get the same thing.

[ABEW19043]

Ninja+Acrobatic Strike helps. By taking a full round attack you get the equivalent of a sneak attack, as long as you can succeed in a tumble check.

Pair this up with a skill later in the Book of Feats (Can't remember the name) that allows insta-kill on a successful sneak attack (Or its equivalent)...

[Flickerdart]

No PrCs is going to be tough for an assassin. There is already a feat for poison use though, in Drow of the Underdark, called Master of Poisons. In addition to never risking poisoning yourself, it also allows you to apply poison as a swift action.

What level are you, and what do you plan to do with the assassin? Flank and then deliver devastating attacks? Scout ahead and poison enemies without them noticing, then come back with your group to finish them off together? The traditional operations of an assassin (take a job, gather information, make the hit, and exfiltrate) don't really work well when you have a party of clanking armoured jerks dragging their heels behind you.

[ArcturusV]

Well, it's not high on the optimized list, but have you looked at the Ninja from complete adventurer?

You have the skills as class skills you need for it. Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, etc. No armor so you're CLEARLY not a frontliner. Got Sudden Strike which I know isn't as good as Sneak Attack due to lacking the "or flanking..." bit. But if you ran old school thief characters that was how you had to get backstab damage anyway, actually earn it and not just an auto every round. Ki abilities like going ethereal or invisible, always useful for the Assassin on the go. Get the trap finding feature and poison use as well in the class early on.

I mean it sounds like it has everything you'd really want for an "Assassin" character. Other than the fact that the class requires quite a spread of stats. It lacks some skills on it's list that are needed for various "Assassin" prestige classes (Like Bluff, not sure why but that seems to be on almost all Assassin Prestige classes and not a Ninja skill) but you're not using them.

[Azoth]

Dark Whisper Gnomes are demented little stealth buggers. Dark is a +1LA template from I want to say Tome of Magic.

Without ANY prestige classes being a non caster style assassin is hard to swing. The first two classes that come to mind are the Rogue and Spellthief. Swordsage might fit the idea fairly well if you stick with Shadow Hand, Diamond Mind, and Tiger Claw as your main disciplines.

The main issue really, if you need to be a skill monkey is balancing BAB and skill points. Without BAB you can't hit well, without skill points you can't be a skill monkey.

If you want to be a magical assassin then pick any Tier1 caster with a spell list you like, and use your magic to get things done. After all at level 1 Sleep + a CDG from a scythe is a one shot on just about anything.

[Flickerdart]

Ninja's an all right choice, but basic Rogue or Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) works better, just because Sneak Attack is vastly superior to Sudden Strike, and those special abilities are quite juicy. Psychic Rogues can also pick up Psionic Minor Creation with a feat, and pump out Black Lotus Extract by the bucket.

[Alphasez]

Something I have done before when making a rogueish type, is take levels in warlock as well.. you'd be surprised at the utility it opens up, and the at wills make it a marriage made in heaven for the stealthy type.

I suggest looking at Hideous Blow, to stack with your sneak attacks, Devil's Sight to see in both non/magical darkness, and the ability to be invisible and fly at will. Also it lets you do ranged sneak attacks at touch AC with eldritch blast.

I gotta tell you, this is probably the funnest I ever had playing a character. And it also lets you continue with you UMD skill. Honestly, the possibilities are endless with this build.

[Flickerdart]

I suggest looking at Hideous Blow, to stack with your sneak attacks, Devil's Sight to see in both non/magical darkness, and the ability to be invisible and fly at will. Also it lets you do ranged sneak attacks at touch AC with eldritch blast.
Hideous Blow and Eldritch Blast are rubbish Sneak Attack vehicles, because you get only one per round, and they already advance at the same rate. If you want to increase EB damage, it's basically always better to take more Warlock levels than it is to take Rogue levels, because EB+SA only matches pure EB damage when SA conditions are met, and never exceeds it.

[ArcturusV]

Never played with Psychics, so it didn't cross my mind.

Rogues ARE nice, and I'd say superior on the face of optimization. Though would require more feats to get stuff like poison use, on top of the feats you want to maximize your ability to inflict that maximum amount of damage. I do admit it's still probably the better choice. And possibly having to deal with DMs saying things like:

DM: "But you're not a drow..." Player: "So?" DM: "So then why do you have a drow feat?" Player: "Because I want it." DM: "But how would you have learned it if you weren't a drow?"

And sometimes I do run into DMs who do that. I don't rage against them because I usually agree it's a good idea to stop a lot of insane cherry picking combos and such in general, though maybe not in this case in particular.

But part of me just likes the ninja package better for the "Assassin" ideal (Even if it has a devil of a time qualifying for any assassin PrCs), due to having it all in one convenient package, allowing me to burn my feats on what I want to focus on rather than giving me basic capabilities.

[Daftendirekt]

DM: "But you're not a drow..." Player: "So?" DM: "So then why do you have a drow feat?" Player: "Because I want it." DM: "But how would you have learned it if you weren't a drow?"

Respond with what should be incredibly obvious: Just because it's from the Drow of the Underdark book doesn't mean only drow can use it.

[thethird]

Psionic rogue with a focus on poisons and psionic minor creation is probably the best bet there.

[Lazarus]

Thanks a lot guys you've been a big help so far!!!! keep them coming....My DM has informed me that we allow Prestige classes its just nobody has EVER used one and some members in this group have been gaming since they could hold dice.... 30+ years...maybe ill look into the assassin prestige class...:smallcool:

[Flickerdart]

There's nothing Drow about Master of Poisons. The fluff is "You are highly trained and adept in the use of toxic substances". Nothing to do with Drow.


Thanks a lot guys you've been a big help so far!!!! keep them coming....My DM has informed me that we allow Prestige classes its just nobody has EVER used one and some members in this group have been gaming since they could hold dice.... 30+ years...maybe ill look into the assassin prestige class...:smallcool:
Assassin doesn't actually make a very good assassin. Check out the Unseen Seer from Complete Mage - 3/10 Sneak Attack progression and it learns divination spells from other class lists, too. You know what's a neat divination spell? Hunter's Eye from PHB2. Gives you extra SA dice equal to 1/3 your CL. Good thing that Unseen Seer gives you bonuses to caster level for divination spells!

[Alphasez]

I agree 100% with you regarding the stacking of eldritch blast, hideous blow, and SA. But the idea of the build, for me ayway, wasnt to do MAX damage every round. It was about the utility, having answer for most situations, and making it out alive.

What was nice about the build though, was that I was just about always able to set up a prime position because the baddies never knew where I was.

[Flickerdart]

It was about the utility, having answer for most situations, and making it out alive.
What would the Rogue levels add to that? You're already invisible and flying, and if you go pure Warlock, are firing your lasers from 250 feet away instead of 30.

[Alphasez]

What would the Rogue levels add to that? You're already invisible and flying, and if you go pure Warlock, are firing your lasers from 250 feet away instead of 30.

Class skills. Again, I dont choose my characters for straight pew pew power. I was still damn good at being a rogue with this build. Disarming magical traps, disabling locks.. You know, rogue stuff.

[lsfreak]

Swordsage makes a decent out-of-the-box assassin.

Rogue is decent too, and potentially hits harder more reliably. Depends on how your group plays though, if you can never set up flanking and you can't count on a wizard dropping greater invis on you it can be very painful.

Monk 3 with Invisible Fist ACF nets you immediate-action invisibility that doesn't break on attacks (which is awesome with sneak attack), but it's not very assassiny if you're starting at low levels.

And I'll just add, it's not a drow feat. It's a feat that happens to be in a book of drow stuff. The entire description is "You are highly trained and adept in the use of toxic substances." Nothing about being drow, training with drow, anything.
EDIT: Of course, that's what I get for talking to long to respond. Also I mistyped, that's Monk 2, not Monk 3, that gets you invisibility. It's once every 3 rounds, which isn't *outstanding* but certainly helps, and with all the ACF's monks have you can probably do something else to help support being an assassin character.

[Flickerdart]

If you want to get consistent sneak attack, a ring of blinking is all you need. Invisibility is nice for sneaking around, but not once battle has begun.

[vhfforever]

I'm giving a second to Swordsage. You could sprinkle in a little bit of Rogue or Scout for Trapfinding to cover the 'breaking in' aspect of things, and use Diamond Mind strikes for one good kill shot, and swap to Tiger Claw to finish them off if the single Con-Checkx2 Damage doesn't finish them off.

Assassin is a horrible assassin, and the most-mentioned member of the 'murder people for money profession' in the books, Artimes Entrati, actually only has 1 level in the prestige class, and the majority of his levels in Fighter.

[Azoth]

Rogue4/ranger2/nightsong enforcer2/swordsage2/nightsong enforcer+8/swordsage+2.

18BAB, good skills, solid maneuver choices from your dips into swordsage. Also good mundane assassin overall.

[vhfforever]

Rogue4/ranger2/nightsong enforcer2/swordsage2/nightsong enforcer+8/swordsage+2.

18BAB, good skills, solid maneuver choices from your dips into swordsage. Also good mundane assassin overall.

Not being able to use Prestige Classes kind of puts a damper in that.

[Azoth]

He said he could use them, but no one in his group usually does. That is why I kept the build down to 1 PRC that helped further blend the classes together.

[JaronK]

I'd recommend a combination of Factotum and Swordsage for an assassin. That lets you teleport up to enemies and cut them down with Assassin's Creed style weapons... very effective. A basic build might be Rogue 1/Factotum 8/Mindbender 1/Swordsage 10 on a Necropolitan Whispergnome, using Mindsight and Lifesense to make sure you see enemies long before they see you, and Darkstalker so you cannot ever be found. Then generate poison with Minor Creation (Black Lotus or Sinmaker's Surprise will do) and sneak up to kill people.

JaronK

[*.*.*.*]

I like Rogue3/Swordsage2/Assassin9/Telflammer Shadowlord6

[Seharvepernfan]

Don't you love it when people post without reading?

Is swordsage an option? Go Rogue 5/Swordsage 1/Rogue X. Get Martial Study (assassins stance) at 6th, and Pierce Magical Concealment, and the twfighting feats. Try to get Backstab from dragon mag. If you go for poisons, try to get weapons with the assassination enhancement. Grab the Crippling Strike ability at 11th. When you take a level of swordsage, grab Island of Blades while you're at it.

That'll be a pretty good assassin.

[Slipperychicken]

I'd recommend a combination of Factotum and Swordsage for an assassin. That lets you teleport up to enemies and cut them down with Assassin's Creed style weapons... very effective. A basic build might be Rogue 1/Factotum 8/Mindbender 1/Swordsage 10 on a Necropolitan Whispergnome, using Mindsight and Lifesense to make sure you see enemies long before they see you, and Darkstalker so you cannot ever be found. Then generate poison with Minor Creation (Black Lotus or Sinmaker's Surprise will do) and sneak up to kill people.

JaronK

And take Font of Inspiration 4 times. That feat is like crack for Factotums.

[GenericMook]

Hideous Blow and Eldritch Blast are rubbish Sneak Attack vehicles, because you get only one per round, and they already advance at the same rate. If you want to increase EB damage, it's basically always better to take more Warlock levels than it is to take Rogue levels, because EB+SA only matches pure EB damage when SA conditions are met, and never exceeds it.

It actually exceeds it if you progress SA dice right after the EB progression slows down. It's not by much (and really not worth it, since you might as well PrC into HFW if you want damage), but it's still possible to get damage greater than raw EB.

[Unusual Muse]

If "all books are available" means third-party content as well, Green Ronin put out a book called The Assassin's Handbook that has an Assassin base class, as well as more feats, etc.

[Piggy Knowles]

Or just go straight beguiler. Stealing a bit from JaronK's build, a necropolitan whisper gnome beguiler 19/mindbender 1 is a fine build if it turns out PrCs are allowed after all. For feats, I might go with something along the lines of...

1- Darkstalker
3- Lifesense
6- Obtain Familiar
9- Mindsight
12- Improved Familiar (Mirror Mephit)
15- Spectral Skirmisher
18- Evasive Reflexes

Spectral Skirmisher/Evasive Reflexes is a combo I saw on RadicalTaoist's beguiler build (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29427631/) on the WotC boards, and it's pretty fun. Spectral Skirmisher has two effects, both of which only take place when invisible: first, enemies have a -5 to their listen checks to hear you, and second, if an enemy makes a melee attack against the square you're in, you can make an AoO prior to determining if that attack finds you.

The first effect is pretty handy all on its own, but the second effect gets particularly fun when combined with Evasive Reflexes, which lets you take a five foot step in place of an attack when granted an AoO. The net result? Enemies have a harder time than usual detecting you while invisible. If they are pretty sure they know where you are and decide to target the square you're in to attack, you five foot step out of that square before the attack resolves. It's a very sneaky little combo, and ever since I saw it on RT's gnome beguiler build I've been itching to try it out myself.

You won't be the traditional assassin who slits people's throats in the dark, but you'll be as stealthy as it's possible to be, and you can sneak in, poison or enchant your enemy (as a necropolitan you won't need to take a feat for poison use), and duplicate them via your mirror mephit's simulacrum ability. Now not only have you killed them, but you've replaced them with a willing duplicate....

[limejuicepowder]

I recommend straight factotum, with this caveat: your DM thinks cunning strike can be used multiple times. If that's the case, with at least 4 fonts of inspiration you'll have some serious nova abilities - as a human and with all fonts, at level 4 when you get cunning strike, you'll be able to hit for a 9d6 sneak attack 1/combat.

Even if you boost your int (which you will), I probably wouldn't go past 4 fonts. By level 9, you're going to start needing some other stuff, like dark stalker. Ask the DM if you can take craven. It'll up your regular combat damage significantly, as you can spend just a single point to add your level to the sneak attack.

Besides that, factotums can do just about anything - to me, that makes them very good assassins. With savvy spell selection, strong skills, and a high int they can contribute to and react to virtually every situation.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Beguiler also makes a great assassin and an excellent poisoner, because the victim never realizes that they're actually drinking a poison, thanks to your heavy focus on Enchantment and Illusion.

It's very difficult to find a Beguiler who doesn't want to be found, with a blend of mundane and arcane methods of not being seen. Illusions are perfect for misdirection and causing distractions which leave holes in security that you can slip through. Being immune to mind-affecting won't necessarily save you either. Figments and Glamors are not mind-affecting, although Patterns and Phantasms are. Shadow spells are not only NOT mind-affecting, but they're actually part-quasi-real.

Make sure to point out this line to your GM:


Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)

Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

Underlined for emphasis.

[Talionis]

Just going to throw out there that anBinder from Tome of Magic can put together a pretty darn good assassin, especially when it startsmbinding two and three vestiges. But you get some decent binds really quickly.

[Slipperychicken]

Beguiler also makes a great assassin and an excellent poisoner, because the victim never realizes that they're actually drinking a poison, thanks to your heavy focus on Enchantment and Illusion.


Glibness (+30) and max Bluff ranks means you have to screw up pretty hard to ever fail a Bluff check.

Your disguises should also be impenetrable by 6th level: Crown of Veils (Beguiler 3. +8 Competence), Disguise Self (Beguiler 1. +10 untyped). Add Disguise Kit (+2 Circumstance), Bluff synergy (+2 untyped), and only change minor details (+5 untyped). Then add in your max ranks (+9) and relatively low charisma (+1). That gives you a total Disguise modifier of +37, before you even roll. Speaking of which, Take 10 instead of rolling so you can keep the Spot DC to defeat your disguise at a nice healthy DC 47.

If you can't at the very least reach your target with numbers like that, you're doing it wrong.