Build help Please "A cornered fox is more dangerous than a jackal!"

[The_listener]

For a long time now I have wanted to reproduce Grey Fox of Metal Gear Solid. But I could never get it quite right, I have gone from the basics of Warforged Ninjas, to Swordsages, but I find myself, lacking a certain something everytime...

So I thought to myself, hey, I'll ask around on Giant, maybe someone there will have an idea!

So here I am and would love to know what you all think? Is it doable?
If so, how?
If you want to a 20 level build would be lovely, any WOTC book or dragon magazine is fine of course just no homebrew.
So guys? Is there a possibility?

http://s1.wallls.com/preview/2/metal-gear-solid-grey-fox-10713.jpg

[The_listener]

Bump?
Anyone?

[Mr Adventurer]

Warblade with a ring of invisibility?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

So, what do you want other than an artificially enhanced martial artist that can turn invisible periodically? Because that's easily accomplished by Swordsage, Warblade, Swordsage/Warblade or a gish. Do you end up having to play builds down because they can do more than Grey Fox?

As cheesy as it is, the clockwork armor might be appropriate. It has no listed ACP for a weilder with Heavy Armor Proficiency who makes a DC 14 craft construct or dc 18 spellcraft check and it grants increased movement speed and a circumstance bonus to Strenght and Dexterity.

[LanSlyde]

Grey Fox.. ah childhood memories.

Anyway, I suggest picking up levels of swiftblade. It's really the only way you could replicate his inhuman speed and reaction time.

While it may seem strange I have found that Bard is a better entry than other classes for Swiftblade in terms of what you lose vs what you gain.

That said, unarmed swordsage or maybe a dip in monk to replicate his CQC. A ring of invisibility to replicate his stealth. Warblade's Iron Heart school to replicate his katana prowess. The super human acrobatics can be replicated with magic items (Boots of Striding and Springing?). My memory is a little fuzzy, but did his cyber ninja mask confer any mechanical benefit? As for his gun, Something involving a Wand of Disintegrate?

I would avoid any actual stealth-based classes simply because his MGS incarnation just popped invisibility and ran around like that as opposed to actually have to be stealthy.

[The_listener]

I just ran Swiftblade past my Dm, and he actually said that I could substitute the caster prequisites for a similar level of advancement in Swordsage;

Basically saying to replace:

Skills: Concentration 6 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast haste.
Special: Must have spent the entire previous level using all 3rd level spell slots to exclusively cast haste.

With:

Skills: Concentration 6 ranks, Martial Study 6 ranks
Maneuvers: Able to use Zephyr Dance
Stances: Able to use Absolute Steel stance
Speed: Base movement speed of 40ft
Special: Must have been the target of the Haste spell
However that would mean a lot of the abilities wouldn't work, any advice?

What do you think of Swordsage/Warlock/Monk/Swiftblade?

[limejuicepowder]

I have no idea who this character is, but I make some guesses and assumptions:

If he's strong in melee, ToB is the way to go: and it's probably going to be warblade. ToB is basically the only way a mundane can get in to t3, and thus the only way they can handle the variety of situations they should be able to handle. Sudden leap, iron heart surge, and moment of perfect mind are very good for character depictions.

Give him some magic items, possibly custom, to simulate any cool gear he has.

Finally, I have a general note and opinion on master martial artists. If this character is portrayed as having fast reflexes and attacks, but doesn't explicitly have Superspeed, I wouldn't worry about finding some way for him to have haste or w/e all the time. Him cutting down legions of men who can barely follow his movements is NOT evidence of supernatural speed - that's just the difference between even mid level characters and 1 or 2 level mooks.

Think about what it would be like to go a round with Floyd Mayweather, or Anderson Silva. Their speed, strength, and ability would basically be beyond imagination, and they would utterly trash the average person (hell they trash OTHER trained fighters). Yet if I were to stat them up I wouldn't put them higher than level 5, and they certainly wouldn't have some kind of haste buff. It's just the difference between an expert fighter and an ordinary dude (even one that's had some amount of training).

[LanSlyde]

I just ran Swiftblade past my Dm, and he actually said that I could substitute the caster prequisites for a similar level of advancement in Swordsage;

Basically saying to replace:


With:

However that would mean a lot of the abilities wouldn't work, any advice?

What do you think of Swordsage/Warlock/Monk/Swiftblade?

Hmm, if you can't earn a way to cast Haste yourself then Swiftblade is out the window considering its entire schtick is the Haste spell, But I would try to push for Unarmed Swordsage instead of Monk and replace Monk with Warblade. Why exactly do you have Warlock in the mix btw?


I have no idea who this character is, but I make some guesses and assumptions:

If he's strong in melee, ToB is the way to go: and it's probably going to be warblade. ToB is basically the only way a mundane can get in to t3, and thus the only way they can handle the variety of situations they should be able to handle. Sudden leap, iron heart surge, and moment of perfect mind are very good for character depictions.

Give him some magic items, possibly custom, to simulate any cool gear he has.



Lime has it from an optimization standpoint, ToB is what you want to focus on if Swiftblade is out.




Finally, I have a general note and opinion on master martial artists. If this character is portrayed as having fast reflexes and attacks, but doesn't explicitly have Superspeed, I wouldn't worry about finding some way for him to have haste or w/e all the time. Him cutting down legions of men who can barely follow his movements is NOT evidence of supernatural speed - that's just the difference between even mid level characters and 1 or 2 level mooks.

Think about what it would be like to go a round with Floyd Mayweather, or Anderson Silva. Their speed, strength, and ability would basically be beyond imagination, and they would utterly trash the average person (hell they trash OTHER trained fighters). Yet if I were to stat them up I wouldn't put them higher than level 5, and they certainly wouldn't have some kind of haste buff. It's just the difference between an expert fighter and an ordinary dude (even one that's had some amount of training).

About to go all fanboy you on, so bear with me.

Grey Fox, A.K.A Frank Jaeger, is a dead man. A walking corpse kept alive with drugs and nano machines contained in a cybernetic exoskeleton. He his beyond mortal men. At will optical camouflage, reflexes quick enough to deflect FAMAS fire on full-auto. Legendary acrobatic and martial prowess, both with katana and fist. He has been depicted (personal favorite scene) deflecting fire from a squad of genetically modified soldiers bred for superiority with just his sword while eviscerating them in an eye-blink.

Sorry about that, but yeah, his abilities go beyond 'professional fighter'.

[The_listener]

Personally I think that Swiftblade has it down to a tee (if you agree) so bending towards battle sorcerer then swift blade, not to sure though....
The TOB line has draws but has never quite cut it for me, not to sure why, and finally I took warlock for the ability to throw invisibility on and off easily.

Ninja also has draws for one obvious reason; Ghost step.

[limejuicepowder]

Grey Fox, A.K.A Frank Jaeger, is a dead man. A walking corpse kept alive with drugs and nano machines contained in a cybernetic exoskeleton. He his beyond mortal men. At will optical camouflage, reflexes quick enough to deflect FAMAS fire on full-auto. Legendary acrobatic and martial prowess, both with katana and fist. He has been depicted (personal favorite scene) deflecting fire from a squad of genetically modified soldiers bred for superiority with just his sword while eviscerating them in an eye-blink.

Sorry about that, but yeah, his abilities go beyond 'professional fighter'.

That just means that he shouldn't be a 5th level character xD.

A level 11 orc barb with max starting str, adding all increases to str, and raging has a str score of 31 (and this is without the str-increasing items he would undoubtedly have. If Fox gets a mecha-suit, the barb should get a belt of giant str +4 and possibly a tome, but I digress).

A str of 31 would allow him to lift 1840 pounds over his head - a smallish car, approximately.

Taking a couple of basic charging feats means on a charge his damage potential is well in to the thousands - easily capable of cleaving through a 5-foot thick unworked stone wall.

His hit point total would allow him to survive a fall from a skyscraper.

This is only level 11, and not very optimized. My point is that higher level characters will routinely do things that are physically impossible. So just because Fox can do impossible task (a, b, c), don't think he's automatically 20th level with some super-OP, specific build.

IMO, 20 level is just below a god, and as far as converting characters to DnD, should be reserved for power on the scale of Superman, The Incredible Hulk, Dr. Manhattan, etc.

[Starbuck_II]

About to go all fanboy you on, so bear with me.

Grey Fox, A.K.A Frank Jaeger, is a dead man. A walking corpse kept alive with drugs and nano machines contained in a cybernetic exoskeleton. He his beyond mortal men. At will optical camouflage, reflexes quick enough to deflect FAMAS fire on full-auto. Legendary acrobatic and martial prowess, both with katana and fist. He has been depicted (personal favorite scene) deflecting fire from a squad of genetically modified soldiers bred for superiority with just his sword while eviscerating them in an eye-blink.

Sorry about that, but yeah, his abilities go beyond 'professional fighter'.

Raiden is about the same in Metal Gear Sons of the Patriot. They "Grey Fox" 'd him.

[Greenish]

Not a specific build, but unless you're going for a caster, a dip to monk for Invisible Fist (Exemplars of Evil ACF) and free feats would probably improve most builds. Getting Hide in Plain Sight from somewhere would also be helpful (especially since at level 20, Invisibility won't cut it with great many monsters).

[LanSlyde]

Personally I think that Swiftblade has it down to a tee (if you agree) so bending towards battle sorcerer then swift blade, not to sure though....
The TOB line has draws but has never quite cut it for me, not to sure why, and finally I took warlock for the ability to throw invisibility on and off easily.

Ninja also has draws for one obvious reason; Ghost step.

Swiftblades where it's at. Battle Sorcerer would be better than standard for your entry. That said, I still advocate bard in general for Swiftblade, but I am a crazy person. For Grey Fox BS would be better tho.

I can understand your sentiments for ToB. It's the best thing to happen to mundanes, which is both a blessing and a curse IMO.

Warlock could also be decent for at-will invisbility if you don't want a ring. You could also portray their EB for his arm cannon.

While I too enjoy ghost step, I do not advocate taking a dip into Ninja solely for that one ability. :smalltongue:


Raiden is about the same in Metal Gear Sons of the Patriot. They "Grey Fox" 'd him.

The only reason they made him the new Grey Fox is because Kojima caught too much flak after MGS2. That said, while he remained an emotional twit, I forgave him after break-dance fighting with Vamp. :smallbiggrin:

[The_listener]

So perhaps,
Warlock 1/Battle sorcerer 6/Swiftblade 5/Monk 2/Swiftblade 5/BS 1 ?

Also forgot to mention the pre-determined stats:

18 16 16 14 12 10

[LanSlyde]

So perhaps,
Warlock 1/Battle sorcerer 5/Swiftblade 5/Monk 2/Swiftblade 5/Warlock 2 ?

Also forgot to mention the pre-determined stats:

18 16 16 14 12 10

16bab, 5th sorcerer spells.

If you want to deviate a little bit you could drop with levels of monk to pick up those warlock levels early, then finish out with Eldritch Theurge. You lose Unarmed Strike progression, but gain 6th level spells, giving the option of using the Swiftblades Time Stop Ability.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Another PRC that you may want to look at (though I have no idea how you'd fit it in with Swiftblade) would be the Renegade Mastermaker (Magic of Eberron, pg. 81) - it makes your non-Warforged character into a sort of half-warforged, half-humanoid cyborg, until tenth level, which gives you the Living-Construct type and makes you count as 'forged. I don't know that you'd need all ten levels, of course, to make your character into a cyborg ninja.

Another thing you might look at is the Half-Golem template (Monster Manual II, pg. 209) though I'd treat that (and anything else from that source) with due care, as it's known to be pretty inconsistent with the power level of its contents (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187046).

Also, LanSlyd is right, Bard makes a good entry to Swiftblade, but I seem to recall a Spellthief ACF which lets you trade into Bard casting, which may be even more optimal, for this build.

[The_listener]

So by making it
Warlock 1/ BS 6/Swiftblade 5/Warlock 2/ Swiftblade 5/Eldritch Theurge 1
He would move at lightning speeds, occasionally stopping time, the only problem is he'd have a pretty lax Ac, my DM having a tendency to never include Magic items and all. The unarmed could be picked up with Improved/Superior unarmed strike?

[Kalaska'Agathas]

So by making it
Warlock 1/ BS 6/Swiftblade 5/Warlock 2/ Swiftblade 5/Eldritch Theurge 1
He would move at lightning speeds, occasionally stopping time, the only problem is he'd have a pretty lax Ac, my DM having a tendency to never include Magic items and all. The unarmed could be picked up with Improved/Superior unarmed strike?

Not to keep tooting the Renegade Mastermaker's horn, but at first level it nets you a natural attack (a battlefist, specifically) that gets iteratives (which is pretty unique, as far as I'm aware).

[The_listener]

Could you advise a build? Optimization is not my strong point...

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Alright.

Renegade Mastermaker requires the humanoid type, 8 ranks in an appropriate Craft skill, and Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and therefore CL 5.

Swiftblade requires BAB 3, Concentration and Spellcraft 6, the ability to cast haste, Dodge, Mobility, one Martial Weapon, and having cast haste a lot.

I would start with a Human Bard 7, which lets you pick up the skills, BAB, the feats (Dodge and Mobility at level one, Craft Wondrous Item at level three, Craft Magic Arms and Armor at level six), the Martial Weapon, and haste.

This is where you then have to decide how much Swiftblade and Renegade Mastermaker you want. The Swiftblade Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=333) has a few recommended break points, assuming you don't want to take all ten levels in the class. However, taking ten levels of Swiftblade with Renegade Mastermaker and a Bard base doesn't make sense, as you won't have sixth level spells to use Innervated Speed.

I think I'd go for Bard 7/Swiftblade 6/Renegade Mastermaker 7, as this gives you the ability to embed Warforged components, while giving most of the benefits of Swiftblade, and 16 BAB. If you'd rather get more Swiftblade, then Bard 7/Renegade Mastermaker 4/Swiftblade 9 would work as well. Finally, you could go for Bard 7/Swiftblade 3/Renegade Mastermaker 10, but I wouldn't recommend this for a mêlée build as it leaves you with BAB 15.

But yeah, I'd go for Human Bard 7/Swiftblade 6/Renegade Mastermaker 7. It lets you embed Warforged components - perfect for being a cyborg ninja - get a fair bit out of Swiftblade, and get your fourth iterative attack.

[LanSlyde]

- Snip -

Kalaska seems to have taken care of things. I'm too tired to actually attempt a build progression right now, but tell me how it works out tomorrow.

[LanSlyde]

Soo, I'm fresh this time, did you still want help? I'm kinda interested in seeing how you built Grey Fox.

[The_listener]

Well having been told I can't use the renagade mastermaker :/ as my DM has booked it up (Or somesuch) I have been told to try again :smallconfused:

I'm thinking bardic sage may be the best bet....

[LanSlyde]

Well having been told I can't use the renagade mastermaker :/ as my DM has booked it up (Or somesuch) I have been told to try again :smallconfused:

I'm thinking bardic sage may be the best bet....

I personally prefer savage bard. You lose out on the summon monster line, but gain access to a number of powerful druid only spells such as reincarnate. Still an arcane caster tho. It also shores up your Fort and Will while Swiftblade would take care of your Reflex and Will.

So Bard7/ Swiftblade9-10/ X3-4.... Well, not really optimized, but you could always just finish out with more bard. Or dip into ToB. Late ToB dips are always delicious.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Well having been told I can't use the renagade mastermaker :/ as my DM has booked it up (Or somesuch) I have been told to try again :smallconfused:

I'm thinking bardic sage may be the best bet....

Hmm, that's too bad. Are there any other sources that aren't allowed?

Also, maybe you'd be interested in getting 9th level spells? Without early entry, you won't be able to get 9s and 10 levels of Swiftblade pre-epic, but 9th level spells are a pretty potent option. And a Bard 7/Swiftblade 2/Sublime Chord 1 or 2/Swiftblade 3-9/+2 or 3 Arcane Casting Advancing Class (or Sublime Chord) nets you 9th level spells and 9 levels of Swiftblade.

[Malroth]

Human Paragon 1 with able learner, Warlock 4, Human Paragon 2 Iaijutsu master 10. Use the drow of the underdark feats to snag reflexive darkness and blend into shadows to make hide checks as a free action even when being observed. Use warlock to grab flee the scene, Darkness, devil's sight and spider walk.

[The_listener]

Beyond the ability to use haste and invisibility spellcasting isn't really required or called for, it just doesn't fit the character.

On a new, interesting turn, I have been told we are using heroic paths in addition to everything, which (if you're not familiar with the midnight campaign setting, it allows me to use haste as a spell like ability and the DM has allowed me to substitute it for the Haste requirement for the class and turn time stop into (By using two uses of haste at once). Which I suppose is good, any ideas?
And noting from ebberon basically...

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Beyond the ability to use haste and invisibility spellcasting isn't really required or called for, it just doesn't fit the character.

On a new, interesting turn, I have been told we are using heroic paths in addition to everything, which (if you're not familiar with the midnight campaign setting, it allows me to use haste as a spell like ability and the DM has allowed me to substitute it for the Haste requirement for the class and turn time stop into (By using two uses of haste at once). Which I suppose is good, any ideas?
And noting from ebberon basically...

If you can get Haste as an SLA, your DM is willing to let that count for the prereqs, and they're willing to let Swiftblade's "+1 Arcane Spellcasting Class" count for maneuvers, then I'd look at going back to Swordsage or Warblade for your base.