[PF] Bestow Power + Echoing Power

[RFLS]

So, poking through the psionics stuff on the PF SRD, I came across Bestow Power (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/b/bestow-power), which grants 2pp to someone else, and costs you 3pp. You can augment it at the same ratio, so you spend 3x pp to grant 2x pp to someone. It does not specify that you can't target yourself.

I also came across Echoing Power (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/echoing-power-metapsionic). It states that by spending 4pp on a power, you can manifest it for free a second time later that day.

So, my question is- if you augment Bestow Power up to 15 points spent for a return of 10, and then augment it a further 4 with Echoing Power, can you essentially get free (and therefore NI) power points?

[Harugami]

No you can't do that based on what it states at the beginning:
"You link your mind with another psionic creature’s mind, creating a brief conduit through which mental energy can be shared."

It does not target you, it targets someone else. You can't power up yourself because you only have one mind, that being said if you had a race with 2 brains and a shared pp you could link with the second head to cheat the rules and multiply your pp based on the way it reads. so the first power wont work on you making the second power ineffective unless you had a friend doing the same thing to you back and forth to multiply each others pp.

so in short one yourself no, with a second person back and forth or a second head yes

that being said it seems to read 3 points to make the link and then 2 transferred but I must be reading this wrong "All points transferred must be deducted from the manifester’s pool of power points" not sure it may be 1 for the link and 2 transferred which would make more sense but the whole thing about that being read is even if you get it a second time that day it would only drain pp based on what you paid first.
Example:if you paid 15 to transfer 10 later that day you transfer another 10 without the 5 cost so basically 20 points and only drain 25 that day.

its a transfer of points not just pulling them out of thin air.

[TuggyNE]

I'm not sure whether it works or not, but it's amusing that (despite the efforts of DSP to patch it from its eminently abusable 3.5 version) there are still likely ways to get infinite PP from it.

[Novawurmson]

Would it work with two manifesters manifesting it on each other?

[Harugami]

because of the way it reads and the nature of its mechanics you would be just swishing points back and forth between 2 people and every time the points change masters you lose several of them this would go one until there are not enough points to use this ability; ie I give you 20 points I'm down 25 now you give me 20 back you are down 25 i give you 20 points I'm down 30 now you give me back 20 you are down 30.

Basically you would be two rather sad psions slowly drain your points by playing catch the imaginary telepathic link-ball. Really this isn't game breaking at all, the only way this would be game breaking is if you invested all you stuff into a high point pool and he invest all his into damage and you simply feed him points to burn. Even if you could work the mechanic this way one of you would be a glass cannon and the other would be the gunpowder. making 2 very good people into two people who are useless alone, unless you are both conscious within 20 feet of each other and both have points left.

Even with that textbook example of a symbiotic support (he needs you to live in order for him to kill to protect you) its not nearly game breaking at all unless he had a one shot power that drained both your points for a final Kamehameha type ability.

[Novawurmson]

Step one: Become a level 20 manifest with Bestow Power and Echoing Power.
Step two: Manifest an Echoing Bestow power, paying 19 PP for 10 PP.
Step three: Manifest the power the second time for another 10 PP, for a total of 20 PP restored, or one net PP gained.

With Psionic Meditation, you can restore 1 PP per two rounds, 5 PP a minute, or 300 PP per hour.

Edit: Posting this on the DSP forums (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/p=31182.html#31182).

[TuggyNE]

because of the way it reads and the nature of its mechanics you would be just swishing points back and forth between 2 people

I disagree; the phrasing of Echoing Power is that "a portion of it remains in your power point pool", and the only wording in bestow power that could stop it is the restriction that "All points transferred must be deducted from the manifester’s pool of power points", which is thereby met.

So yeah, shuttling back and forth between two manifesters would definitely do the trick if you're at least ... *calculates* ML 19. You could be lower-level and use e.g. Wild Surge to help pay for the metapsionics, or just use ML boosters.

[andromax]

Another trick for power point recharge is Metapower: Bestow Power + Linked Power + Earth Power. Cast a Bestow Power linked to another Bestow Power (reduced from 6pp to 4pp with Metapower) and then Earth power reduces it to a PP cost of 3 for a gain of 1 per round. And per Earth Power's description, you are sucking psionic energy out of the ground.

Of course.. not all DMs will allow this.

[TuggyNE]

Another trick for power point recharge is Metapower: Bestow Power + Linked Power + Earth Power. Cast a Bestow Power linked to another Bestow Power (reduced from 6pp to 4pp with Metapower) and then Earth power reduces it to a PP cost of 3 for a gain of 1 per round. And per Earth Power's description, you are sucking psionic energy out of the ground.

That's not applicable to DSP's version (which is the one in debate here) because they tightened it up a lot for PF. The interesting thing is that you can still manage some PP recharge tricks even with all their attempts to lock it up.

[CTrees]

No you can't do that based on what it states at the beginning:
"You link your mind with another psionic creature’s mind, creating a brief conduit through which mental energy can be shared."

It does not target you, it targets someone else. You can't power up yourself because you only have one mind, that being said if you had a race with 2 brains and a shared pp you could link with the second head to cheat the rules and multiply your pp based on the way it reads.

Ettins just gained some potential...

[Harugami]

The point is when going over this game mechanic no matter how cheap you make the transfer there is still the loss of points from the link and the fact you have to transfer points not copy and paste them into another player. Even with the 1 point recharge per round there is still the loss of 20 points from your pool every time you do this. Those abilities make this way more efficient but it still doesn't negate the fact you have to have points before you give them away.

What it means by a portion remains in your pool it means the cost of the copy of the spell so you wouldn't have to pay the link transfer twice. the example was 1 point to link plus 4 for the echo then 2 transferred for a total of 7 then an addition 2 transferred for free later for a total of 9 points and only 4 given. giving more at a time is more efficient though.

[TuggyNE]

The point is when going over this game mechanic no matter how cheap you make the transfer there is still the loss of points from the link and the fact you have to transfer points not copy and paste them into another player. Even with the 1 point recharge per round there is still the loss of 20 points from your pool every time you do this. Those abilities make this way more efficient but it still doesn't negate the fact you have to have points before you give them away.

Sure. So? All recharge methods I know of require you to start with a certain amount in order to spin it up; that's not generally a problem, unless your pool is so small you can burn right through it in a single encounter. *coughpsychicwarriorcough*


What it means by a portion remains in your pool it means the cost of the copy of the spell so you wouldn't have to pay the link transfer twice. the example was 1 point to link plus 4 for the echo then 2 transferred for a total of 7 then an addition 2 transferred for free later for a total of 9 points and only 4 given. giving more at a time is more efficient though.

Actually, the example in the OP is 15 pp spent on the base power and 4 pp on the metapsionic, so 19pp total, with a total of 10 + 10 = 20pp recovered. I don't know what the example you gave is for; it doesn't seem to match the augmentation patterns.

[Ravenica]

Sure. So? All recharge methods I know of require you to start with a certain amount in order to spin it up; that's not generally a problem, unless your pool is so small you can burn right through it in a single encounter. *coughpsychicwarriorcough*



Actually, the example in the OP is 15 pp spent on the base power and 4 pp on the metapsionic, so 19pp total, with a total of 10 + 10 = 20pp recovered. I don't know what the example you gave is for; it doesn't seem to match the augmentation patterns.

no

you see the transfered point's aren't "cost" they are effect, you lose them both times, Your effective loss is 29 to transfer 20

[RFLS]

no

you see the transfered point's aren't "cost" they are effect, you lose them both times, Your effective loss is 29 to transfer 20

Yeah, no, you're wrong. The power states the initial cost (3), and the effect (the subject gains 2 points). Under augmentation, it goes so far as to say "For every 3 power points you spend, the subject gains 2 more," which, if you're reading it as written (this being, you know, a RAW debate), would indicate that points aren't transferred; they're spent and gained.

[Psyren]

Am I missing something? Echoing power seems to work 1/day, which is hardly enough to go infinite.

[Ravenica]

Yeah, no, you're wrong. The power states the initial cost (3), and the effect (the subject gains 2 points). Under augmentation, it goes so far as to say "For every 3 power points you spend, the subject gains 2 more," which, if you're reading it as written (this being, you know, a RAW debate), would indicate that points aren't transferred; they're spent and gained.

Effect of the spell "All points transferred must be deducted from the manifester’s pool of power points" there's no wiggle room there

[RFLS]

Am I missing something? Echoing power seems to work 1/day, which is hardly enough to go infinite.

You're not missing anything; the trick is that you get a point more out than you put in, which isn't technically infinite, but it is a good recharge mechanic.


Effect of the spell: "All points transferred must be deducted from the manifester’s pool of power points." There's no wiggle room there.

And from Echoing Power, we have "The second manifesting does not expend any additional power points." There's no wiggle room there.

[Psyren]

You're not missing anything; the trick is that you get a point more out than you put in, which isn't technically infinite, but it is a good recharge mechanic.

Limited recharge 1/day for a feat is fine by me

[RFLS]

Limited recharge 1/day for a feat is fine by me

Oh- you can continue manifesting the power, it's just that you have to remanifest it each time. So, it's manifest it once, it pops twice, and then you have to manifest again. So, you get 1 point out every time, but you can do it as many times as you can regain psionic focus and manifest the power.

[TuggyNE]

Effect of the spell "All points transferred must be deducted from the manifester’s pool of power points" there's no wiggle room there

The thing is, though, Echoing Power's fluff reserves power points for a second manifestation for free: you are, in fact, deducting twice for the cost of once. It's crazy, but it does work.