Is this suicide?

[CoffeeIncluded]

So the group I'm in has been commissioned to retrieve something from a pack of hill giants. We're all level 4 or 5. Is this suicide? Is there a way to do this without dying? Our party is:

Kurt, Level 4 dwarf Barbarian 3/Crusader 1 or Barbarian 4 (Just got raised). He had a +1 vicious greataxe but we had to sell it so now we've got to get him another greataxe, though it's probably just masterwork.

Valen, Level 5 human Dragon Ascendant (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=480443) (His character sheet). Basically it's a homebrew sorcerer with a few martial abilities who slowly turns into a dragon.

Miriam, Level 5 human cleric of St. Cuthbert. She's taken a vow of poverty and she'll be buffing and healbotting. We've had to drag her along on this.

Mithril, Level 5 human wizard. She's got a bunch of goodies, mostly some minor long-range damage spells, a few buffs, a circlet that stores spells, minor rods of empower and enlarge, and a magic missile wand. Oh, and she picked up Haste this level.

Shiny, Level 4 gnome beguiler. He's got a level 1 ring of wizardry, is carrying around a partially-depleted wand of cure light wounds, and pretty much every strategy I can think of revolves around him.

Natalia, Level 5 human rogue 3/swashbuckler 2. My character, and yes I'm taking Daring Outlaw next level. She's got all the sneaking and scouting skills maxed. She's a TWF-er and has a +1 shortsword, a +3 adamantine anarchic dagger, +1 studded leather armor, and an anklet of translocation.

The letter got went as follows:
"You've accepted the bargain as it is laid out. Deep inside of the Giant encampment lies the Kings hoard, within that Hoard lies a small stone, no larger than to fill a grown man's hand. It glows and sparkles with a particular radiance. This is your objective. Know, that anything else you find is yours to claim so long as it does not jeopardize your mission.

The plan laid out below is your best way to gain entry and to avoid the bulk of the enemy forces. Though, the plan is not perfect. Be prepared.

Recent intelligence shows that the best time to perform this task is between the 6th and 9th days as the King of the Giants should be on the move. It is also recommended that you avoid any Hulberg outposts, lest you are conscripted into tasks which interfere with this task.

Good hunting,
-R

And then:

Once open the letter contains a wealth of information. Included is a map of the entire area, it shows the Hulberg Outpost locations, it also shows a rough map of where to find the Giant's Main Encampment. It appears as if the giants main encampment can be approached relatively safely from the north and by scaling a couple hundred foot cliff wall. Once scaled, most of the encampment is bypassed as the encampment is using this cliff as a natural defense.


How the hell do we do this without getting killed? I think we'll be able to take on one giant, but not more than that.

I was thinking maybe we sneak in under cover of fog cloud/obscuring mist, maybe load up on buffs, and have a sped-up Natalia snag the stone and whatever else she can grab before running for it.

[Tanuki Tales]

I'd suggest healthy doses of Diplomacy.

Are there any tribes of anything around? One time me and my group made a challenge a lot softer by convincing the local warband of Orcs to attack it first.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Uh, they're allied with each other at the moment; that's not likely to happen.

Shiny's got +14 to diplomacy; it might work, but what could we offer in exchange? I don't think diplomacy would be the best at working, sadly. What other options are there?

Many of the giants are attacking a city outposts, but we can't handle 6 of them, and that's how many might be left behind.

[ArcturusV]

Maybe. Though my natural instinct makes me wonder if this isn't a set up. On good relations with this mission contact? He has no reason to want to get rid of you? Information can be verified by an outside source?

[CoffeeIncluded]

Maybe. Though my natural instinct makes me wonder if this isn't a set up. On good relations with this mission contact? He has no reason to want to get rid of you? Information can be verified by an outside source?

Shiny started bragging and exaggerating about our deeds one night in order to impress a girl (he's a pathological liar, and impulsive to boot). Next morning we find a letter at the inn, saying if we want a job we should open the second letter. Shiny rips the second one open; everyone but Miriam (she wasn't there) and Natalia (17 or 18 on the saving throw) gets hit by a lesser geas (a signed contract in a way) and says we've got to get this item in 14 days or "earn the displeasure of my associates." Lovely. We've had outside information that the outposts are expecting a giant attack within the timeframe, so that matches up.

I just really don't want to die.

[Friv]

Sounds like a non-combat mission if I've ever heard one.

Let your rogue scout some good paths for you, to avoid as many people as possible. If you do encounter a hill giant, try to talk him down rather than getting into a fight; maybe even do some minor tasks or bribe him. . If a fight does break out, use your mages to pin him down while the buffed barbarian beats him to death; hill giants have a lot of health but their AC is crap. A Level 4 dwarf barbarian should be able to reliably land pretty serious blows on one, especially if he's been hasted and buffed, and he'll have enough health and speed to avoid strikes and survive one or two blows safely.

But yeah, your primary goal here is almost certainly to avoid major fights, through distractions, stealth, misdirection and diplomacy.

[Tanuki Tales]

Uh, they're allied with each other at the moment; that's not likely to happen.

Shiny's got +14 to diplomacy; it might work, but what could we offer in exchange? I don't think diplomacy would be the best at working, sadly. What other options are there?

Many of the giants are attacking a city outposts, but we can't handle 6 of them, and that's how many might be left behind.

Go to said city and form a mercenary army?

Seriously, just find some amounts of some dupes to throw at the Hill giants. Then you can either take on the weakened camp, sneak in and steal it during the confusion or kill the leader and make the remaining Hill Giants squabble over leadership.

[CoffeeIncluded]

We have two people able to speak giant: Shiny knows the language and Mithril got Tongues as her other spell this level. In combat, Miriam's role is Enlarge Person on Kurt, Bull's Strength on Valen, maybe now Shield Other on Kurt, and then healing. Mithril fires minor spells that add up thought now she might Haste Natalia.

But yeah, I think the best plan is to send in Natalia, invisible if possible, definitely speeded up. Though she can't go in too far by herself. I'm just afraid because if one thing goes wrong it's a TPK.

What other ideas are there?

EDIT: I highly doubt we'll have allies willing to help us. Maybe Shiny could use illusions?

[ArcturusV]

Yeah, sounds like someone is setting you up for some reason. Shiny was hitting on some spellcaster's girl?

This does actually sound like a case where going with typical Player Logic might be a good situation, for a change. Rogue sneaks into the camp and steals whatever s/he can. Rest of you create a "Distraction" through indiscriminate arson.

Because it's as true today as when I first took up adventuring, fire is always a solution. If you can damage one of those outposts by the camp, draw some attention off, should make the rogue's job easier.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

+3 Listen, +6 Spot

I'd say it's suicidal for anyone that can't trivially defeat those.

So, looks like a job for the Beguiler, Rogue and Wizard after learning some new spells.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Yeah, sounds like someone is setting you up for some reason. Shiny was hitting on some spellcaster's girl?

This does actually sound like a case where going with typical Player Logic might be a good situation, for a change. Rogue sneaks into the camp and steals whatever s/he can. Rest of you create a "Distraction" through indiscriminate arson.

Because it's as true today as when I first took up adventuring, fire is always a solution. If you can damage one of those outposts by the camp, draw some attention off, should make the rogue's job easier.

The outposts belong to humans, the giants are attacking the human outposts. Though Shiny could...definitely make a diversion with Minor Image.

He was hitting on a shopkeeper, a female gnome and a rather aggressive magic items saleswoman. Who's also been treating Natalia like crap lately, but that's unrelated.

[The Glyphstone]

Lesser Geas, you say?

Have Miriam start memorizing Remove Curse in her 3rd level slots. It can break a Lesser Geas without any caster level check. Once you've gotten all four, you have as much time as you need to solve this puzzle - or just abandon it and go do something you weren't blackmailed into.

[Clistenes]

Your party is full of spellcasters and sneaky types, so instead of trying to kill everything, why not using cunning and try to steal the stuff instead of taking it by force?.

Even if your wizard didn't learn the right spells, your beguiler should have invisibility, disguise self, minor image, ghost sound and open/close by now. The rogue and the beguiler should be able to do something to sneak into the giant's den, lure the hill giants away and retrieve the item.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Lesser Geas, you say?

Have Miriam start memorizing Remove Curse in her 3rd level slots. It can break a Lesser Geas without any caster level check. Once you've gotten all four, you have as much time as you need to solve this puzzle - or just abandon it and go do something you weren't blackmailed into.

Two of them are already healed, but we only have two weeks anyway.


Your party is full of spellcasters and sneaky types, so instead of trying to kill everything, why not using cunning and try to steal the stuff instead of taking it by force?.

Even if your wizard didn't the spells, your beguiler should have invisibility, disguise self, minor image, ghost sound and open/close by now. The rogue and the beguiler should be able to do something to sneak into the giant's den, lure the hill giants away and retrieve the item.

That's what I'm planning. I just want to know the safest and smartest way to do it. Also, Natalia's got far and away the best hide, spot, listen, search, and move silently checks.

Disguise self, huh...And he knows Giant too. :smallamused: I may not even need to sneak. Or at least we might be able to play it off if I'm caught.

[ArcturusV]

Ah, human outposts. Now I wonder why your contact would say to avoid them? With your Face character there you'd think you could use them as a resource. Whip them into a frenzy to attack the giants as part of some "coordinated plan" that you are proposing to them... then you know, just forget to mention your promised reinforcements are fictional and use the fodder as you want to help effect your plans.

... I've been playing evil PCs far too often lately...

[CoffeeIncluded]

Ah, human outposts. Now I wonder why your contact would say to avoid them? With your Face character there you'd think you could use them as a resource. Whip them into a frenzy to attack the giants as part of some "coordinated plan" that you are proposing to them... then you know, just forget to mention your promised reinforcements are fictional and use the fodder as you want to help effect your plans.

... I've been playing evil PCs far too often lately...

Uhm, because we're all good-aligned? He wanted us to avoid them to prevent us being bogged down, I think.

The point is that there's going to be about a half dozen giants left out of several dozen, but even that's too much for us. So I want to know what the best ways are to prevent getting into any fights at all, if possible. Since I'm not too good at the game.

I'm going to bed now, but thanks for helping. I'll continue reading your responses tomorrow morning.

[The Glyphstone]

If the Geas is removed, you can't be bogged down, since you have no time limit anymore. The vaguely threatening 'do it soon or Unspecified Bad Things Happen To You' isn't too worrisome. Remember, if the people threatening you could steal back this treasure by themselves, they wouldn't need you to do it. That means they are, at worst, as dangerous as the hill giants, and likely less dangerous, so their nebulous wrath is riskable.

[CoffeeIncluded]

It'll also earn us a reputation as people who can't keep their promises if we don't at least try. And we will be bogged down because in a few days the giants will return and then we'll have a few dozen instead of 6 to get through.

[ArcturusV]

Hmm, how well set up are you for trapping ability? It's something to consider as if you can set up the battlefield on your way in (While sneaking) then having a few traps go off on the way out could help cover your escape really well. Caltrops are cheap if I remember. Spike Stones are better but not available to you. Depending on how friendly your DM is there's lots of ways you can fashion other trap advantages but it depends on particulars about supplies, terrain, etc.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Hmm, how well set up are you for trapping ability? It's something to consider as if you can set up the battlefield on your way in (While sneaking) then having a few traps go off on the way out could help cover your escape really well. Caltrops are cheap if I remember. Spike Stones are better but not available to you. Depending on how friendly your DM is there's lots of ways you can fashion other trap advantages but it depends on particulars about supplies, terrain, etc.

If I have the time, this would be a good idea, as well as in-character. What traps would you suggest?

Goodnight, and thank you.

[ArcturusV]

Caltrops are obvious, and with them cutting the enemy's move speed make escape that much more likely. Spells like Fire Trap and Exploding Runes if you can figure out good ways to set them up. Simple things like a trip line if you have terrain that can support it. You can easily run triplines that are easy for humanoids to walk under but would slow down or trip a giant. Of course if you wizard has it spells like Grease would also suffice in that role. Porcupine Catapults if you have the time and supplies. Fashion something that flexes backwards with high resistance, lash and stake it to the ground. Put something spikey on it. Cut ropes lashing it down as you pass to fling spikey thing in the face of whoever is following you.

So much of it just depends on local conditions it's hard to say off the top of my head. But definitely consider any spells you might have that lower visibility or move speed. Fog Banks, Transmute Rock to Mud, etc.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

It'll also earn us a reputation as people who can't keep their promises if we don't at least try.

Huh, all I got was some vague stuff about letters hitting you with geas. That's not a promise or a contract, that's a compulsion effect, the fact that geas is often used to seal legitimate contracts is immaterial. I'd say going along with it has the worse risk of developing an undesirable reputation; as easily manipulated mooks.

[Clistenes]

Have you considered poison? The beguiler and rogue could throw something into the giant's stew. The taste wouldn't be a problem, just use Prestidigitation to make the poison tasty.

I guess you would need something strong to beat the giant's +12 Fort Save. Dragon Bile has DC 26 and Purple Worm poison has DC 24. Purple Worm poison is an Injury venom, so a prickly DM could say it wouldn't work when ingested, but Dragon Bile is Contact and should work fine.

Their Will Save is only +4, so Suggestion could work...does your wizard has the spell, and how high is her Int bonus?

EDIT: On a second thought, those are really expensive poisons. You would probably prefer to buy a magical weapon for your dwarf warrior.

[Vizzerdrix]

Would burrowing be an option?

You could either drop them into sink holes, or get to the treasure from underneath.

[Andezzar]

Does the rogue have enough UMD to regularly use wands? If so give her a wand of shivering touch. If the wizard is brave (or stupid) she can also learn that spell. As an added bonus she could use the rod of empower spell on it.
Round one touch the giant, round two coup de grâce if so desired (and you rolled 8 or more on 3d6). If any of the giants are still alive aftr you found the stone, make sure to tell them on whose behalf you incapacitated/killed them

Oh and the cleric and wizard should start using their magic to find out anything they can about the blackmailer and the stone ASAP. Then decide what you want to do with the stone.

[Malroth]

have the wizard learn illusionary script one casting can get you through the entire giant camp without a fight.

[Mnemnosyne]

First thing I'd do is figure out what the laws on enchanting people without their consent are. Because either going around throwing geases on people is illegal, or you can use this to your advantage yourself. If it's illegal, you can safely ignore this mission and investigate who illegally geased you instead, which should, in itself, prove quite interesting.

If it's not illegal...well then. You can keep that in mind to use yourself. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right? Say, if you go to a shop, you can tell the shopkeeper, 'I have an offer for you, do you want to hear it?' and when they say yes, just enchant them into giving you everything you want for three copper pieces, because that's exactly what's been done to you; you were offered a deal, sight unseen, then enchanted...you never actually accepted the deal, unless 'failing your saving throw' is considered accepting a contract. And if it is, make sure to consult with the authorities to ensure that is totally legal, then go wild with it.

That said, if you still want to go through with obtaining the object - so that you have something valuable to entice your would-be enslavers into a blunder you can catch them in, for instance - then I agree with some of the other advice. Also, consider using levitate or fly to get up the cliffside and approach from there. I also second the idea of having the wizard learn/use suggestion because the giants are likely to have low will saves, and I bet you can think of 'extremely reasonable' suggestions to give them a penalty even on that. For instance, suggest that they really, really should go help the other giants on the raid, because there's human reinforcements coming, and they don't want to miss the fun and the loot.

[Clistenes]

I also second the idea of having the wizard learn/use suggestion because the giants are likely to have low will saves, and I bet you can think of 'extremely reasonable' suggestions to give them a penalty even on that. For instance, suggest that they really, really should go help the other giants on the raid, because there's human reinforcements coming, and they don't want to miss the fun and the loot.

Or you can try to lure most of the giants far from their base with Minor Image or Ghost Sound and, if they leave a sentinel guarding the magical stuff, use Suggestion to convince him to "hide it somewhere safer, very far from this place the humans already know", and once he is far from the other giants, kill him and take the loot.

Since the orcs are allied with the giants you can also use the beguiler (speaks giant, high diplomacy, knows disguise self), disguised as an orc messenger, to try to convince them to send some reinforcements to the raiding giants. Later the beguiler can try to lure the remaining giants with Minor Image and Ghost Sound, and if they leave a sentinel, try to use Suggestion on that one.

[Kol Korran]

It seems straight forward Kurt, shiny and you climb the cliff (Kurt carries shiny) and then the beguile uses invisibility on you (and on himself if he's also sneaky) and you go steal the stone.
That said, there might be complications- a hidden trap, a guard animal with scent, or your patron somehow setting you up. Which is why I suggest surveying the camp even for a whole day or more (probably Natalia) and acquiring optimal/ scrolls of expeditions retreat/ fly/ gaseous form for a quick escape.

Another idea- have shiny use his illusion magic to cause sound, lights and so on outside the camp. Try to kill lone giants or pairs wandering outside (might be risky) and then mutilate them horribly already the impression they met some gruesome fate possibly repeat the process on following days. Then haveshiny approach under some guise was a witch or some thing, proclaiming it is all because of the cursed stone he's searching for. Hopefully you scared the giants well enough to give it away.

By the way-out is the log still going on? I haven't seen it in awhile.

[Invader]

A coordinated attack where everyone focuses fire on 1 of the giants and then a retreat could work. Kill one, retreat, come back a few hours later and repeat the process. If you have a few days it should work and after you kill off a few giants they might be a little more amenable to negotiations.

[Amphetryon]

It'll also earn us a reputation as people who can't keep their promises if we don't at least try. And we will be bogged down because in a few days the giants will return and then we'll have a few dozen instead of 6 to get through.

You didn't make a promise, you succumbed to a magical compulsion. If folks in your campaign world thing going back on a promise that was extracted under circumstances akin to brainwashing is "bad form," your dealing with some seriously Blue and Orange morality, there.

[Prince Zahn]

given the party, sneaking to retrieve the stone is evidently the most prominent option, and diplomacy might be hard depending on whom you consider your potential allies and the intelligence/wisdom level your DM portrays them in, it would only make sense that your party go with stealth. spells I notice not mentioned from core(but may possibly help if you can get them, or when used creatively) may include Glitterdust, Gaseous Form, Silence, Unseen Servant(may be subject to debate but mentioned anyway),Clairvoyance, Blink(mentioned because it makes bait amusing:smalltongue:Rope Trick(because rope trick!!!:smallbiggrin:)Status, Enthrall(to an extent), and maybe more...

if a plan B(or C?:smallconfused:) is in order, consider learning Blink for suggestion below.

Kurt or Valen could be blinked(or perhaps Natalia for risk-vs.-reward easy sneak attacks), and that could serve as a very annoying distraction, so long as you accept that fact that some of the subject's attacks may fail, or that a giant might get lucky. if your wizard can learn torrent of tears(CM), I myself could vouch for it - sickened opponents with 50% miss chance is nothing to scoff at, (not to mention the sheer comedy behind making giants cry.:smalltongue: *snicker*) glitterdust is a good(if not better) substitute to learn if you could group two or more giants together upon casting, be wary of duration, however.
in my thoughts, the most useful spells might just be annoying debuffs that exploit the low reflex or will saves, even if your spellcasters are not optimized for it, it could still pose a likely threat for them.
on buffs, anything that could aid your defense and help you fight longer should be considered at least once, but not when healing is desperately needed obviously. AC buffs, unfortunately, will influence little against a club attack with +16 modifier, which is why I brought up miss chance effects in the first place. Oh, and sanctuary should be a given for anyone who doesn't want to put their lives on the line.
this may be a good opportunity for Shiny, or any character not wanting engage in combat, to stuff your packs with as much treasure as s/he can get for his/her own heavy load, this will be for "future investments".

Alright, so clearly I'm no expert strategist. there are things I may not have considered, which perhaps needs some fine-tuning by someone more competent, but in a best-case scenario, you would be able to hold up at-least enough to get the stone, collect some loot, cast a blinding agent on all of them and ensure your flee.

as always hope for the best, Coffee, and I hope this helps!
PZ.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Opening the envelope was akin to accepting the contract; the geas was a way of enforcing it, according to the DM.

Mithril doesn't have any enchantment spells and I don't think she's going to learn them because IC, she's uncomfortable with using them due to their effects on others. We're a rather RP-heavy group which means that, for example, Kurt might pull a Leroy Jenkins (though considering he died the last time that happened he might wait for us this time around) and Miriam probably won't go out of her way to help Mithril or Natalia (because her character is pissed at ours right now, though I know she's still got our back if a fight breaks out).

Mithril's spells are: All cantrips, Alarm, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Identify, Feather Fall, Burning Hands, Shield, Reduce Person, Dawn Burst, Acid Arrow, Cloud of Knives, Detect Thoughts, Tongues, and Haste. We don't have time to get new spells.

Valen's spells are: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Mage Hand, Mending, Light, Mage Armor, Shield, Swift Expeditious Retreat (which he dropped Wraithstrike for because he felt the spell was too powerful), and Burning Hands.

We've also got a 200 foot cliff to scale, so we'll need feather fall.

Hm...maybe we could set a fire somewhere, scale the cliff, have Shiny, Miriam, and Mithril load us up on buffs, then have a minor image of a dragon attacking while Natalia sneaks in and grabs the gem and whatever else she can get? She's got a +12 to search checks so it shouldn't take too long. Maybe put a silence spell on her so she doesn't make noise? Shiny's only got 4 second-level spells though. Then we all run off the cliff and feather fall to safety?

[limejuicepowder]

Call me crazy but it seems to me the beguiler would stand a decent chance at completing this mission solo. Giants have poor will saves and low int, and that's a beguiler's favorite type of enemy.

Invisibility should let you walk right in to the camp - to make this a bit easier I'd cast it on the rogue and bring her too. When you get to the treasure room, throw up an illusion of the hoard so the rogue can search it without having to worry about "levitating objects." Find it, walk right back out. I'm assuming the rogue and beguiler have decent move silently checks - note that hill giants only have a +3 listen modifier.

Really, even if the giants notice almost immediately that something is missing (a high likelihood, if the stone is important and they put it on a pedestal or something), they still stand very little chance of finding two invisible people.

For a faster escape, have the barb scale the wall with the wizard and wait for you. Cast feather fall and jump off the cliff.

Whatever you do, don't fight them. Giants rather a lot of damage - they will almost certainly one-shot any of the casters or the rogue, and with power attack they might one shot a melee-er. Plus, they have 104 hit points. If it comes to this, except some character death.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Opening the envelope was akin to accepting the contract; the geas was a way of enforcing it, according to the DM.



Maybe, maybe for the guy who actually opened it. Unless he's your leader by formal agreement the rest of you were assaulted.

Attempting to bring this to the court of public opinion could hurt the party if the "contractor" has a strong reptation for honesty, but shines just as bad or worse a light on the caster.

If you want to do the quest because it's what the DM wants you to do, then more power to you for playing the game in a harmonious fashion.

As for the actual mission, I still recommend stealth. However on further thought, if there's only six in the area a more aggressive form of stealth may be better and more in keeping with the DM's desires for the game. At any given time I'd guess about two are on guard either patrolling or at a gate/tower, two in the main hall and two asleep.

Invisibility on the whole party and silence on an item in the middle of the group should allow you to bypass the patrol/guards easily. I'd recommend bypassing them entirely since they'll likely have a way of raising alarm and with their size and height it would be difficult to silence both them and their alarm.

Try to find their sleeping quarters and coup de grace the sleepers (consider some cheap axes for the task). Then go to the main hall, despite being a high cr 2-3 hill giants should be doable if you use reflex/will targeting battlefield control. From there you can grab the stone and run or fight the front guards if you feel confident so you can haul out all the mad lootz.

[Kaveman26]

It depends a lot on your DM's personality. My first thought would be...

Have the feather fall equipped beguiler riding in the Dragon Ascendant's backpack. He should have swift expeditious up and running.

The rest of the party draws as much attention as possible away from the cliff. The dragon ascendant and beguiler don't stealth in...they sprint in and search for the stone. The moment they have it in hand...lay down grease and obscuring mist to gain seperation from drawn in giants and then have your incursion team jump off the cliff and trigger feather fall a few feet from the bottom.

But that is because my DM would draw us in with the cliff, which would be the most defended position.

[Zman]

I am the DM.

To clarify a few things. Firstly, Shiny has advertised himself as the group leader and the one who could make such decisions. It was addressed to him. If anyone actually broke the law, it was Shiny.

In the first letter it was made clear that opening the second letter, with the specifics, constituted a contract.

The proposed plan, which involves sneaking into the camp via a cliff, estimated only having to bypass or dispatch roughly a half dozen giants. There may very well be more in the camp.

The proposed timetable was to coincide with expected giant movements.

Information on Giant movements has been corroborated by the Human forces in the area.

I am not forcing the party into this quest, I run a psuedo sandbox game with multiple concurrent story arcs. The players can choose what they do and when they do it, but those choices affect the landscape and surrounding events. Time keeps moving. Currently there are three prominent quests and over a dozen minor quests they could be completing. If they choose to go on this giant quest, that is their choice, and it even ignores a quest where they help defend the outpost from a Giant Assault.

As to some of the suggestions, especially those that utilize broken spells or rules abuses, ie shivering touch and the like are not permitted.

[CoffeeIncluded]

The proposed plan, which involves sneaking into the camp via a cliff, estimated only having to bypass or dispatch roughly a half dozen giants. There may very well be more in the camp.

Wait, what? I thought it was only a half dozen total!

[The Glyphstone]

Do the players know this? The way Coffee presented it and seemed to believe it, they had no choice but to do this specific quest, between the Geas, the warnings to avoid other towns, and the threats of retribution if they didn't do the quest. Either there's some miscommunication between you (the DM) and the player/s, or the story got garbled badly between Table and Forums.

[Tanuki Tales]

Since Zman has shed light on things, I still go back to my previous suggestion. Convince the humans to take proactive actions against the Giants to split their attention and forces. Your party will act as a strategic special forces group, supplemented possibly by mercenary hirelings.

Sneak into the camp and steal the loot or find the leader Giant and kill him, throwing the power structure into chaos as the remaining giants squabble playing "King of the Mountain".

[CoffeeIncluded]

Do the players know this? The way Coffee presented it and seemed to believe it, they had no choice but to do this specific quest, between the Geas and the threats of retribution.

I reread the letter and the second time noticed the "Earn the displeasure of my associates" bit. Which means, at least to me, if we don't do this we risk losing our reputation and having...words...with someone in a back alley. Unless we find who sent it and told them there was a mistake.

[Tanuki Tales]

I reread the letter and the second time noticed the "Earn the displeasure of my associates" bit. Which means, at least to me, if we don't do this we risk losing our reputation and having...words...with someone in a back alley. Unless we find who sent it and told them there was a mistake.

Or wreck them when they eventually show up. Like pointed out a page ago, they can't be more dangerous than the giants.

[The Glyphstone]

I reread the letter and the second time noticed the "Earn the displeasure of my associates" bit. Which means, at least to me, if we don't do this we risk losing our reputation and having...words...with someone in a back alley. Unless we find who sent it and told them there was a mistake.

If they start smearing your reputation for not cooperating with a quest you got shanghaied into (unless it is common practice in this world for magical compulsions enforcing contracts that must be agreed to without reading them), then you'll know who they are, and you can go have words with them directly.

I fully expect they'll try to kill you anyways when you bring the gem back. If they're this underhanded and untrustworthy in the process of giving you the quest (not to mention they're not actually paying you anything, all you get is salvage rights, which makes for a lousy contract), who says they'll let you walk away afterwards?

[CoffeeIncluded]

They're also paying us 10,000 gp, and I've got a random (unlikely, but possible) thought that the person, R, who sent us this contract might be the shopkeeper Shiny's got a crush on. Her name is Ruby. I doubt this is the case, but it's definitely possible. Is there any way to track down who could have sent it?

[Zman]

Do the players know this? The way Coffee presented it and seemed to believe it, they had no choice but to do this specific quest, between the Geas, the warnings to avoid other towns, and the threats of retribution if they didn't do the quest. Either there's some miscommunication between you (the DM) and the player/s, or the story got garbled badly between Table and Forums.

Letter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14413961&postcount=764)

Second Letter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14415642&postcount=787)

Edit: Note, its pretty explicit that opening the second letter is binding.

I believe it is a miscommunication, anything else is simply assumptions on the players part.

They are not forced to do anything, and can simply dismiss it if they so choose. Coffee feels the desire to do it, and won't simply walk away. The pressure is hers.

Also, note that the letter says to approach from the north, they are current south of the North Eastern Outpost, and further South and West of the Giant's. If they wish to complete the mission in the recommended time frame they will likely need to approach the giants from the south throwing any intelligence they have out the window as they have spend 5 days doing another quest and have at minimum two days journey to the Giants via a direct route.

[Andezzar]

In the first letter it was made clear that opening the second letter, with the specifics, constituted a contract.Could you tell us what happenend?
This:
Next morning we find a letter at the inn, saying if we want a job we should open the second letter.Does not sound like a contract by opening the letter but just as a job offer in the second letter or an agreement to negotiate over the job offer. Hitting them with a geas just for showing interest is just mean and will probably bite you in the posterior later as the PCs may possibly never agree to anything again. Disregard, I just read the letters. Whoever opened the letter is bound (legally). I still don't see how he or the others are bound magically though.

BTW how was the automatic Geas even implemented? The spell has short range and a target of one creature. Contingency only works on the caster.

Why can't the wizard get useful spells? IIRC you have about a week of time. in that time frame she should be able to buy and learn a couple of spells.

[CoffeeIncluded]

No, he did say we'd be bound to the agreement--Shiny was just impulsive is all. I'm just afraid that now we're stuck. I thought we had enough time to go around to the north and I'm not the only one saying we should go to the giants.

[Zman]

Could you tell us what happenend?
This:Does not sound like a contract by opening the letter but just as a job offer in the second letter or an agreement to negotiate over the job offer. Hitting them with a geas just for showing interest is just mean and will probably bite you in the posterior later as the PCs may possibly never agree to anything again.

BTW how was the automatic Geas even implemented? The spell has short range and a target of one creature. Contingency only works on the caster.

Why can't the wizard get useful spells? IIRC you have about a week of time. in that time frame she should be able to buy and learn a couple of spells.

Read the letters. See previous post for links.


And it was instituted by an Item I thought up, basically a contract pen. Seems a reasonable way to seal the agreement.

Edit: I have nothing against useful spells, but do against broken spells. I wouldn't use Shivering touch against the party as I feel its broken, therefore I won't allow them to use it either.

[CoffeeIncluded]

If there's more than a half-dozen giants (and I seriously thought there were only that many) then I don't think we can do it.

I hope there's a way to track down the one who sent us this letter, tell them we can't do it and need more time.

[Zman]

If there's more than a half-dozen giants (and I seriously thought there were only that many) then I don't think we can do it.

I hope there's a way to track down the one who sent us this letter, tell them we can't do it and need more time.

That estimate was if you were able to bypass most of the encampment via the cliff, I explained that earlier.

More time does little good as the timetable is based upon when they estimated the bulk of the Giant's force would be gone. The Task becomes exponentially more difficult with there are dozens of giants.

[Andezzar]

And it was instituted by an Item I thought up, basically a contract pen. Seems a reasonable way to seal the agreement.Wow that is overpowered. I could see a pen that magically binds someone upon signing a contract, but binding someone [u]and unsuspecting others[/b] just by reading a text is pretty much over the top. The PCs should really try to get that pen - to destroy it, of course :smallwink:

[CoffeeIncluded]

It does more good if we come back at 8th or 9th level. :smallwink: I think Shiny's bragging made the person who sent us the letter overestimate our abilities.

And we didn't know about the pen until after we were hit by the spell.

[Zman]

Wow that is overpowered. I could see a pen that magically binds someone upon signing a contract, but binding someone [u]and unsuspecting others[/b] just by reading a text is pretty much over the top. The PCs should really try to get that pen - to destroy it, of course :smallwink:

Its instituted by agreement, Shiny agreed to the contract and willingly bound himself and others to it. That's the beauty of magic, it can measure intent.

[Andezzar]

Its instituted by agreement, Shiny agreed to the contract and willingly bound himself and others to it. That's the beauty of magic, it can measure intent.And that is exactly what I meant by saying it is overpowered. Did it even measure intent? Have you asked Shiny's player whether his intent was to include the rest of the group in the contract, or how did you as DM know? If the character is that impulsive (and stupid) I doubt he thought to include the others.

[CoffeeIncluded]

We were debating whether or not to open it, and when, when Shiny ripped open the letter. We were leaning towards opening it after finishing a quest with the ogres when Shiny ripped it open. If we knew it would end the way it did (with Shiny and Kurt dead and with us forced to return to Hulburg to raise them) then we would have never opened it to start with. As it is, we were forced to rush to the ogres to beat them before the lesser geas penalties started to kick in.

[satorian]

Wow. I'm sure glad no legal system in the real world can compel action on a contract merely by knowledge of one party's offer. Silence concerning the offer can be compelled, but not action. Such a contract would thankfully be invalid.

This must be a very Lawful Evil society.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

First, by anything approaching the magic item creation rules, a item that casts geas will be quite expensive 3,300 gp for use activate single use and that needs to be multiplied by the number of potential targets it's meant for. Even this number is ignoring the that it's activating a spell with a ten minute casting time instantly.

If magic can "read intent" why didn't it ignore the by standards?


We were debating whether or not to open it, and when, when Shiny ripped open the letter.

That doesn't sound like "intent" to consent to me. This letter is starting to sound like a minor artifact or a relic of a god that loves contracts, major if the power lies in the pen that inked it and it's repeatable.

Binding anyone other than Shiny seems like bad form on several in game and metagame levels unless everyone has actually sworn an oath of loyalty to him or entered into a formal contract to join his party.

[The Glyphstone]

And that is exactly what I meant by saying it is overpowered. Did it even measure intent? Have you asked Shiny's player whether his intent was to include the rest of the group in the contract, or how did you as DM know? If the character is that impulsive (and stupid) I doubt he thought to include the others.

An extremely overpowered item. I love it, this has Plot Hook written all over it.

Zman should totally run with this as another plot, tracking down this powerful magical pen capable of mind-controlling/unwillingly binding people to contracts it writes without their knowledge or consent. It might even be an evil minor artifact, since it sounds tailor-made for Faustian contracts and soul-stealing devils.

*scurries off to brainstorm homebrew*

[Andezzar]

We were debating whether or not to open it, and when, when Shiny ripped open the letter. We were leaning towards opening it after finishing a quest with the ogres when Shiny ripped it open.Aha, so Shiny did not have consent of the other characters to open the letter or enter into a contract. So either the pen has the ability to compel totally unsuspecting and unwilling people to do whatever is written down, or they should not be bound. If the former is the case i would really want that pen, and wirte lots of pamphlets with "kill the king!" and drop them off in the next capital.


As it is, we were forced to rush to the ogres to beat them before the lesser geas penalties started to kick in.the penalties only kick in if the target stops fulfilling the instructions. Wait, rest and preparations can be part of the fulfillment.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Aha, so Shiny did not have consent of the other characters to open the letter or enter into a contract. So either the pen has the ability to compel totally unsuspecting and unwilling people to do whatever is written down, or they should not be bound. If the former is the case i would really want that pen, and wirte lots of pamphlets with "kill the king!" and drop them off in the next capital.

the penalties only kick in if the target stops fulfilling the instructions. Wait, rest and preparations can be part of the fulfillment.

The ogres were 24 hours away from the giants and we were trying to rescue people before they were eaten.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Oh, and we haven't sworn an oath of loyalty to Shiny, or to anyone. We debate things and often go along with majority vote.

[Kol Korran]

was shiny right to open the letter or not... is the party bound by this contract or not... is the pen over powered or not... was it a mess up or not... all valid questions in their way, but I think there is a bigger picture-

This can be a great gaming opportunity! either as an exciting adventure against the odds, requiring brains and witty thinking instead of "choose the appropriate spell/ attack with full force" approaches that are so common to D&D tactical parties. or as a roleplay marvel- party dynamics might change as Miriam might "have enough" or Shiny might feel regret at his impulsive actions maybe trying to find an interesting way to compensate the party, and dire difficult situations can bring the worst, and the best out of people. Or a change of course- seeking your "patron" by secretive searches, careful info gathering and playing a game of shadows, trying to offset the curse, and the mystery man/ woman.

as a fellow player in my group usually say: "where there is danger, conflict or adversity, there you find opportunity!" you seem bummed out by this situation, but I say rise to the challenge, seek to make it more interesting, more thrilling, more awesome! it might make for a more you'll want to remember for a long time... sure- you might die, but the greater the risk, the greater the reward, no? :smallwink:

at least my opinion.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Except that we literally just had two characters raised yesterday, and we had to sell some very good stuff to do it. I don't think we'll have the chance to do it again.

[Zman]

I'm on my phone so this will be brief.

In retrospect, maybe the geas should only have affected Shiny, maybe it could be broken. Either way, due to the nature if a party I had it affect everyone present. Either way, it will never turn into anabusable item.

The situation stands, they do not have to attempt this. They have choice and it is for my players to decide. Please don't second guess the situation, their choices, my decisions, or the validity if the quest or events that brought it about. Its rude and undermines what has been the best pbp I've been a part of. Now, if you take the time to read the ic and see how the situation came about, that is great and I welcome feedback, but opinions from the hip without adequate knowledge and understanding of the situation aren't very helpful.

The players and their characters have choice and it is their opinions that matter.

[The Glyphstone]

I still think the Evil Pen of Compulsion is a great start for a quest hook...

[Andezzar]

Either way, due to the nature if a party I had it affect everyone present.To me this sounds like railroading and like a direct contradiction to that:
I am not forcing the party into this quest, I run a psuedo sandbox game with multiple concurrent story arcs.


Either way, it will never turn into anabusable item.IMHO the abuse has already happened. You have a device that can force anyone to do anything or suffer the consequences of geas (or was it lesser geas?), without any character having the chance to even know that such an item exists (because it is custom). If it were, I'm sure every caster able to do it would only read anything within an AMF or at least hit any document with dispel magic.


The situation stands, they do not have to attempt this.Of course not, they can just take the 3d6 damage every day and possibly become sickened.

[CoffeeIncluded]

It's a lesser geas and Miriam has access to Remove Curse, so either way Kurt and Shiny will be healed tomorrow (Mithril and Valen were already cured).

[Zman]

To me this sounds like railroading and like a direct contradiction to that:

IMHO the abuse has already happened. You have a device that can force anyone to do anything or suffer the consequences of geas (or was it lesser geas?), without any character having the chance to even know that such an item exists (because it is custom). If it were, I'm sure every caster able to do it would only read anything within an AMF or at least hit any document with dispel magic.

Of course not, they can just take the 3d6 damage every day and possibly become sickened.

Railroading? I specifically listed the terms in a way that could be subverted, and made sure the party would have access to a means of removing any penalty. I think you are overreacting to something that didn't happen to you, and you are making such a reaction without all of the information which includes my OOC explanations.

It is not a device that forces anyone to do anything. The stipulations were that they had to agree to be bound to the contract, by opening the second letter the voluntarily allowed the Lesser Geas to affect them. And Shiny was accepting on behalf of the group, which is the only debatable part. As I've already said, in retrospect it probably should have only affected him, but it has past and I'm not dwelling on it. In case you were wondering, that means drop the issue because nothing you say has any bearing on the game.

You have failed to acknowledge what I've said multiple times. Simply reading words written in the pen do nothing, knowing accepting a contracts terms in a binding fashion will. The pen cannot affect anyone at a whim. Only when someone agrees to a contract penned by it will it take hold, its the magical equivalent to a binding contract. No one can have it forced upon them. If you read the letters it is quite clear, knowingly opening the second letter was entering a binding contract, it just happened to be literally binding. They knew the risks, they knew it was binding, the knew the time frame. Shiny knowingly agreed. Case closed.

And as stated multiple times, its a Lesser Geas, only a cumulative -2 penalty per day, and by moving to advance the quest for 24hours they can be completely removed. Hardly earth shattering, especially considering the terms were written flexibly to not debilitate them needlessly.

[Andezzar]

I'm mostly referring to the acceptance on their behalf. Before it was not clear that the pen only works in conjunction with the first letter i.e. by telling them that by reading the second one you agree to enter into a contract. While this sort of cat in the bag probably wouldn't be legal in most jurisdictions, that is still a lot less underhanded and coercive than it appeared before.

I still do not consider that kind of behavior particularly nice and would probably do everything in my power get rid of the geas and then have a reckoning with the issuer of the letter before even attempting to get the stone, but that is the decision of your PCs, so have fun.

[Zman]

I'm mostly referring to the acceptance on their behalf. Before it was not clear that the pen only works in conjunction with the first letter i.e. by telling them that by reading the second one you agree to enter into a contract. While this sort of cat in the bag probably wouldn't be legal in most jurisdictions, that is still a lot less underhanded and coercive than it appeared before.

I still do not consider that kind of behavior particularly nice and would probably do everything in my power get rid of the geas and then have a reckoning with the issuer of the letter before even attempting to get the stone, but that is the decision of your PCs, so have fun.

And I attempted to make that clear from my original post in this thread. Coffee misrepresented how the events actually played out and the flame wagon had already picked up steam.

If they party chooses to have a reckoning with the issuer of the letter, so be it. They can.

[AcerbicOrb]

A coordinated attack where everyone focuses fire on 1 of the giants and then a retreat could work. Kill one, retreat, come back a few hours later and repeat the process. If you have a few days it should work and after you kill off a few giants they might be a little more amenable to negotiations.

They don't have a few days, because they need to strike while most of the giants are out attacking a human outpost.

[CoffeeIncluded]

We weren't railroaded into this the way some of you think. I glossed over the exact details in my OP because they weren't important to me at the time of writing; the important thing was "Okay, we're here, now how do we do this?"

I'm sorry about derailing the thread and causing this confusion.

[Mnemnosyne]

They're also paying us 10,000 gp, and I've got a random (unlikely, but possible) thought that the person, R, who sent us this contract might be the shopkeeper Shiny's got a crush on. Her name is Ruby. I doubt this is the case, but it's definitely possible. Is there any way to track down who could have sent it?
Absolutely. Get a pair of Gloves of Object Reading, and use them on the letter. The previous owner (probably the person who wrote the letter, and all owners before that too, for that matter) will be revealed to some degree - their race, gender, age, alignment, and the manner in which they gained and lost the item. The last is of little use because they probably bought the item (parchment/paper) in a store, and lost it by delivering it to you, but with race, gender, age, and alignment you should be able to reason out a solid list of suspects.

Granted, if you don't have the gloves it may take a while to get them, but they're a very useful item to have in general for all sorts of situations like this.

I still agree that the mission is pretty doable. Giants really don't seem like the type that are good at dealing with sneakery and illusion; you could probably get in and out with invisibility and a couple illusions if you bring only the sneaky characters into the camp. It's hazardous, but it can be pulled off. If you can set up some long-range communication, you can make sure that if the sneaks get caught, they can contact the others, who could then make a distracting attack on the camp to give the sneaky ones an advantage in fleeing. If you don't have anything better, consider something like the dancing lights signal the goblins used in Azure City.

[Newcomer]

I'm going to quickly weigh in, as someone who's been following this campaign, and corroborate the DM. It seemed pretty clear, IC, that opening the second letter would invoke some kind of magic. The combination of the wording in the first letter and the 'faint hint of magic' when they opened the first envelope gave me that impression, and IIRC, the characters were taking the act of opening the second letter as a seriously binding act. One of them just jumped the gun to circumvent the debate.

I have no idea what the best strategy would be here, Coffee, but illusions could certainly be a part of it. It's been a while since the dragon on the boat. :smallsmile:

But I also think you should keep in mind that the task looked difficult, but doable, if you followed the letter's plan to a T. With the time constraints that have developed, it would be wise to keep an open mind towards aborting the quest, depending on what you see when you get there.

Oh, and initially I thought "R" was definitely Ruby. I still think it's most likely the case. Now I'm starting to wonder, though, if it could be someone more sinister. Possibly someone associated with hooded ones...