Nanto and Hokuto Feats Trees/ACF - Forum Brainstorm

[CinuzIta]

Hello forumers!

One of my player is a Ken Shiro fan, and he recently asked me if it was possible to create a feat tree (or alternative class features) for d&d 3.5 monks aimed to represent these combat styles. Now, I told him it was possible but that I didn't knew a lot of things about them. So I thought about asking to you guys for some help.

Things I know are that a Nanto user would use his hands and feets to deliver cutting blows and things like that, while Hokuto would be more focused on pressure points.

So, as a beginning I thought about something like these:

At first level, the monk get to choose one of these bonus feats:

"Nanto placeholder": the character can now choose to deliver slashing, bludgeoning or piercing damage with his unarmed strike. 1/round, the character can choose to deal 1d6 bleeding damage to his enemies when two or more of his unarmed attacks hit his enemy. At 4th level the character can choose to substitue the bleeding damage and make his enemy be fatigued instead (Fortitude negate. DC 10 + 1/2 Character's Level + Wis modifier).At 8th level the bleeding damage rise to 2d6. At 12th level, the bleeding damage can be dealt 2/round. At 16th level, the character can permanently cripple his enemy severing his tendons (Fortitude partial. DC 10 + 1/2 Character's level + Wis modifier. On a succesful saving throw the enemy suffers the bleed damage as if he was normally struck by the character). At 20th level the bleed damage rise to 3d6.

"Hokuto Placeholder": At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This condition replaces stunning the target for 1 round, and a successful saving throw still negates the effect. At 4th level, he can choose to make the target fatigued. At 8th level, he can make the target sickened for 1 minute. At 12th level, he can make the target staggered for 1d6+1 rounds. At 16th level, he can permanently blind or deafen the target. At 20th level, he can paralyze the target for 1d6+1 rounds. The monk must choose which condition will apply before the attack roll is made. These effects do not stack with themselves (a creature sickened by Stunning Fist cannot become nauseated if hit by Stunning Fist again), but additional hits do increase the duration.
[These is just like Pathfinder's Stunning Fist]

From here, how would you go on? (Or how would you improve these two feats?)

[Plato Play-Doh]

I'd suggest using the fighting styles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) monk variant from Unearthed Arcana, just make a couple new styles. Now that I look more carefully, the Hand and Foot fighting style seems to fit Hokuto style pretty well, based on your description. I'm not really familiar with the source material that is being referenced by this, so I can't really make any more suggestions without a little more to go on.

[zegram 33]

nanto basically makes your hands lightsabers, so i'd go with reductions to ac DR and bypassing regeneration (probably in that order).

hokuto...yeh, id personally give a LOT moreuses of stunning fist, butas well as several effects (instant death, paralyzation, disarming maybe even sleep) come up with conditions that apply, each affecting the dc of the save.

so a default "next round" might even give a -5 to the save, whereas a "in three rounds" might give +2 to the dc, and "the enemy attacks me " might add +2. so if you applied both, then if he attacked on the 3rd turn:+ 4 to dc
if he instead attacks on the second turn, he gets two attempts at a +2 bonus instead. the key would be to make the unmodified save impossibly easy, so your aim is to stac all of these conditions correctly that you kill the guy. to me, that seems to fit pretty well with the (lets face it) absurdly complicated pressure points that get used in he series.

might be a bit iffy for "boss-type" enemies (although in 3.5, what ISNT unfair against a single enemy?) maybe certain nmies with trained bodies simply take xd6 damage, rather than being insta-killed/paralyzed even if you succesfully anticipate their moves

does that soundlike a plan?

*edit* that sounds pretty fun to me...i might have to slot that in as my nex homebrew attempt as well

[CinuzIta]

I'd suggest using the fighting styles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) monk variant from Unearthed Arcana, just make a couple new styles. Now that I look more carefully, the Hand and Foot fighting style seems to fit Hokuto style pretty well, based on your description. I'm not really familiar with the source material that is being referenced by this, so I can't really make any more suggestions without a little more to go on.

Eh, actually Hand and Foot doesn't fit very well. Point is that is very difficult to try to do a descrption of Hokuto, since it seems to have a powerful strike for almost any situation...

The Fighting Style thing is a good suggestion anyway.


nanto basically makes your hands lightsabers, so i'd go with reductions to ac DR and bypassing regeneration (probably in that order).

hokuto...yeh, id personally give a LOT moreuses of stunning fist, butas well as several effects (instant death, paralyzation, disarming maybe even sleep) come up with conditions that apply, each affecting the dc of the save.

so a default "next round" might even give a -5 to the save, whereas a "in three rounds" might give +2 to the dc, and "the enemy attacks me " might add +2. so if you applied both, then if he attacked on the 3rd turn:+ 4 to dc
if he instead attacks on the second turn, he gets two attempts at a +2 bonus instead. the key would be to make the unmodified save impossibly easy, so your aim is to stac all of these conditions correctly that you kill the guy. to me, that seems to fit pretty well with the (lets face it) absurdly complicated pressure points that get used in he series.

might be a bit iffy for "boss-type" enemies (although in 3.5, what ISNT unfair against a single enemy?) maybe certain nmies with trained bodies simply take xd6 damage, rather than being insta-killed/paralyzed even if you succesfully anticipate their moves

does that soundlike a plan?

*edit* that sounds pretty fun to me...i might have to slot that in as my nex homebrew attempt as well

Good point about Nanto.

I'm afraid I haven't understand very well the system you're proposing.

As I said above, it's very hard to try to represent Hokuto in all of his power, since it has something like an hundred of attacks. Anyway, what about something like these?

Hokuto
Monk also get Intimidate as a class skill.
1st level Skill Bonus: Intimidate

1st level:
Knowledge of Pressure Points: At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This condition replaces stunning the target for 1 round, and a successful saving throw still negates the effect. At 4th level, he can choose to make the target fatigued. At 8th level, he can make the target sickened for 1 minute. At 12th level, he can make the target staggered for 1d6+1 rounds. At 16th level, he can permanently blind or deafen the target. At 20th level, he can paralyze the target for 1d6+1 rounds. The monk must choose which condition will apply before the attack roll is made. These effects do not stack with themselves (a creature sickened by Stunning Fist cannot become nauseated if hit by Stunning Fist again), but additional hits do increase the duration.

2nd level:
Hundred Fists of Hokuto (aka "Atatatatatatata!!"): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.


[B]6th level:
Mastery of the Pressure Points: From these level on, the effects caused by Stunning Fist's uses stack with themselves (a creature sickened by Stunning Fist can become nauseated if hit by Stunning Fist again).

6th level bonus ability: the monk gains an additional use of Stunning Fist. Moreover, his Stunning Fist and Quivering Palms attempts receive a +2 bonus to their DCs.
Prerequisite: Intimidate 6 ranks, Power Attack

Nanto
1st level Skill bonus: Bluff

1st level:
Nanto's one hundred cuts: the character does not obtain Stunning Fist but can now choose to deliver slashing, bludgeoning or piercing damage with his unarmed strike. 1/round, the character can choose to deal 1d6 bleeding damage to his enemies when two or more of his unarmed attacks hit his enemy. At 4th level the character can choose to substitue the bleeding damage and make his enemy be fatigued instead (Fortitude negate. DC 10 + 1/2 Character's Level + Wis modifier).At 8th level the bleeding damage rise to 2d6. At 12th level, the bleeding damage can be dealt 2/round. At 16th level, the character can permanently cripple his enemy severing his tendons (Fortitude partial. DC 10 + 1/2 Character's level + Wis modifier. On a succesful saving throw the enemy suffers the bleed damage as if he was normally struck by the character); a creature who fails her saving throw move at 5 feet for the rest of his life, unless supernatural cures are applied. At 20th level the bleed damage rise to 3d6.

2nd level:
Deft Strike: Starting at 2nd level, the character add his Dex modifier to his damage rolls.

6th level:
Deep Wounds: Starting at 6th level, the Monk ignore enemy's DR equal to half his level. (Is these any good?)


15th level:
Cutting the Air: A Nanto adept do not get Quivering Palm (now considered an Hokuto strike). He instead become able to strike opponents that are 5 or 15 feet away from him alike, as if he had a reach (but without any penalty when fighting adjacent foes). The characters limb obviously does not elongate but the strenght and rapidnes of his attacks create shockwaves that literally hack his enemies just as they were hit by a phisical attack.

Moreover 1/day, the monk can attempt to behead an enemy when he confirm a critical hit, just as the Vorpal enchantment. The monk has to declare he wants to use these ability before trying to confirm his critical menace. On a failed attempt, the monk has not wasted his daily use, but cannot make a second attempt for 1d6 rounds. (Is these any good?)

6th level bonus ability:
The character's bleeding damage lasts 2 rounds instead of just 1. Moreover, "Nanto's one hundred cuts'" DCs receive a +2 bonus.
Prerequisite: Bluff 6 ranks, Combat Reflexes

[Plato Play-Doh]

With all the stuff you have there, I almost think that it would be more fitting as two separate classes. What you already have is a good start, and you could probably fill in the dead levels with monk features. That honestly seems like the best way of going about it, at least to me. You could always go the fighting style route, but that's more individual feats than full-blown class features, and I really just think that what you've got there would require so much replacement of other stuff, that they might as well be their own classes that are just very similar to the monk.

[zegram 33]

heh yeh, upon re-reading my post was pretty muddled
what i was suggeting was that hokuto would get a "stunning fist style ability", with various possible effects rather than stun (stun, disarm, instant death, etc)

but to fit with the flavour of hokuto (the whole "in three seconds you will be dead, repent!" type stuff) have it so that you can put triggering conditions on the attack that have to be fulfilled before said ability will actually take effect. so you hit a guy, then if he does what you said he would, hegets a much harder save.

have the save dc against instant death to be naturally very easy (5/10 fort?), but with the more conditions you lay on, the higher the dc, but ONLY if the conditions are actually fulfilled, otherwise its just the bog-standard attempt.

the only other thing i can think of is kinda the opposite, where you apply the effects s the normal "stunning fist" but you cn defer the effect until they perform a specified action

i hope this is making more sense?

EDIT: just read through a bit more thoroughly, and: there doesnt seem to be a single "instant death" effect under either of them
what with hokuto literally being all abut instant death pressue points....id say it needs them. not saying you need to be gettin the majority of your kills through it like in the anime/manga, but from at latest level 10-12 id say it should have a couple as an option

[CinuzIta]

With all the stuff you have there, I almost think that it would be more fitting as two separate classes. What you already have is a good start, and you could probably fill in the dead levels with monk features. That honestly seems like the best way of going about it, at least to me. You could always go the fighting style route, but that's more individual feats than full-blown class features, and I really just think that what you've got there would require so much replacement of other stuff, that they might as well be their own classes that are just very similar to the monk.

Aye, I've noticed that these are more alternative class features instead of feat trees, but being those two styles quite complex and nearly impossible to be represented with just feats I've decided to go with these.

I'm not creating entirely new class since my player just wanted to go monk (but since monks are generally considered a weak class, I believe there's no problem in boosting their capacities a bit) :)


heh yeh, upon re-reading my post was pretty muddled
what i was suggeting was that hokuto would get a "stunning fist style ability", with various possible effects rather than stun (stun, disarm, instant death, etc)

but to fit with the flavour of hokuto (the whole "in three seconds you will be dead, repent!" type stuff) have it so that you can put triggering conditions on the attack that have to be fulfilled before said ability will actually take effect. so you hit a guy, then if he does what you said he would, hegets a much harder save.

have the save dc against instant death to be naturally very easy (5/10 fort?), but with the more conditions you lay on, the higher the dc, but ONLY if the conditions are actually fulfilled, otherwise its just the bog-standard attempt.

the only other thing i can think of is kinda the opposite, where you apply the effects s the normal "stunning fist" but you cn defer the effect until they perform a specified action

i hope this is making more sense?

EDIT: just read through a bit more thoroughly, and: there doesnt seem to be a single "instant death" effect under either of them
what with hokuto literally being all abut instant death pressue points....id say it needs them. not saying you need to be gettin the majority of your kills through it like in the anime/manga, but from at latest level 10-12 id say it should have a couple as an option

Well, with pathfinder's system Hokuto's stunning fist do have various effects
I don't get why the instant death dc should be easy at the beginning and then get difficult if some conditions are fulfilled (be patient I'm not a Ken Shiro expert): from what I've seen in the anime, an enemy struck by the pressure point attack doesn't have a chance of surviving. In particular, I don't understand the underlined part: if I recall correctly, the pressure points immediatly take effects in the anime, no particular actions were required by the enemy struck.

You were proposing something like these,right?

1. Strike the enemy with stunning fist. He's now sickened (possible +2 to instant death's dc)
2. Strike again with a paralyzing stunning fist. Another +2.
3. Strike again with fatigue stunning fist. another +2.
4. Strike with quivering palm. Its dc is now higher because of the other bonuses it gets from the precedent stunning fists.

The instant death ability for hokuto is the quivering palm (could be renamed pressure points' head explosion or something like that, the functioning of the ability would stay the same, since in my opinion it fits particullary well) while Nanto has that Vorpal strike I described above. Maybe I could raise their DCs by an additional +1 for every status alteration that is delivered by Stunning Fist (or a +2 for Nanto's fatigue and crippling from Nanto's Hundred Cuts). I could also raise the daily uses of those abilities to 3/day.

Would it be a good idea?

[zegram 33]

ah, i see what you mean
no, my thoughts were how...when he fights anything more than mooks, it tends to be "you will die in X seconds" or "you will die if you attempt to fight/kill ever again" or some such.
the enemies pretty much never actually take that advice, but thats the idea. my plan was that you set conditions like that that raise the dc, so you could set the deathblow to trigger if the guy ever attacked a "good" character or something, with a harder dc.

the reason i said a low "normal" dc is a) that lets you have a lot more (maybe even "at will" at high levels) instant death attempts, since bosses will basically be immune unless you DO stack these restrictions.
and b) having loadsof thse attempts means its viable to just blast on at a weak mook, which WILL insta-kill him (as in the series).

so against mooks, your one-shottin lef and right with (comparative) sureity, whereas bosses require an actual anticipation/fistfight.

quite complicated, and quite possibly far more complicated than you are interested in, but would be pretty incredible if done properly

[Plato Play-Doh]

Aye, I've noticed that these are more alternative class features instead of feat trees, but being those two styles quite complex and nearly impossible to be represented with just feats I've decided to go with these.

I'm not creating entirely new class since my player just wanted to go monk (but since monks are generally considered a weak class, I believe there's no problem in boosting their capacities a bit) :)

Yeah, that's true. Also, none of your added features are gamebreaking, though they do add a new way of doing things, so it's really a cool addition. However, I think the cumulative bonus/low starting DC idea that zegram is suggesting would be a bit better mechanics-wise, as well as giving the feel of actually having to fight for it, rather than just instantly killing everything in your path.