Time to break my players

[silverwolfer]

So I sort of let things go over kill and allowed my players to go full splat and stats, and steam rolled a few of my bosses which were pre made, so right now am looking at the possible of using a character player race of level 6 that is just as optimized.


What would a super villian of the level 6 variety look like if muchkinized so deep that he would be a card carrying member of the lollipop guild and work in a choclate factory.

*side bit* no need for conversation dealing with how players feel, or unfun or anything like that. The planned adventure is over, so this is a planned gut check on just how powerful there characters are so does not matter who does or lives.

[Flickerdart]

You're going to have to give us a little more details than that.

[limejuicepowder]

If the party is as optimized as you say they are, tactics is what's going to get the job done. A batman wizard is powerful because he's prepared - if Batman shows up to the wrong fight, he's going to run or get stomped. This is especially true for a level 6 character, as they don't have the raw resources to prepare for every eventuality.

The lesson of the story is this: since you're the DM and know your player's strategies and capabilities, you need to make a character that is the perfect counter to those strategies. Yup it's as cheesy as that.

Edit: Also, a character, no matter how OP'd, is not going to take on an entire party of equally OP'd characters.

[Qc Storm]

I've found that lone bosses stand very little chances VS players, due to action economy.

If they can somehow stand toe-to-toe with them, the boss can probably one-shot them.

Give him a few minions to slow the party down.

[Deaxsa]

Just make the guy so he has brains. he only fights with an escape plan, looks for ways to get immunities from what your party uses, etc..

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy

in the same vein, i'm running a game, and the cleric is a bit out of hand with healing. is there any aoe or spell effect that reduces/cuts off healing? i want to target this guy so that hit points become a significantly more precious resource.
I've looked at Bestow Curse, but it's touch, and i'd want more of a desecrate or unhallow flavor.

ALSO: if you think this might hijack the thread, DONT ANSWER IT i'm not here to steal a thread, just get a pointer to some spell or magic item or ability, because i have a similar question and don't see the point of making a new thread.

[Flickerdart]

in the same vein, i'm running a game, and the cleric is a bit out of hand with healing. is there any aoe or spell effect that reduces/cuts off healing? i want to target this guy so that hit points become a significantly more precious resource.
Combat healing generally can't keep up with damage output from even remotely optimized opponents. If you're still having trouble, there are plenty of offensive actions that don't deal hit point damage. Negative levels, ability damage/drain, paralysis, unconsciousness, mind control...

[limejuicepowder]

in the same vein, i'm running a game, and the cleric is a bit out of hand with healing. is there any aoe or spell effect that reduces/cuts off healing? i want to target this guy so that hit points become a significantly more precious resource.
I've looked at Bestow Curse, but it's touch, and i'd want more of a desecrate or unhallow flavor.


Cast False Cure. It's an instant for 1B that deals damage equal to twice the life gained this turn.

Crap that's for the wrong game isn't it.

Yeah what Flickerdart said. How are your minions doing so little damage combat healing is neutralizing it? Or conversely, how is the cleric healing so much he outpaces incoming damage?

If you don't want to increase the damage of the opponents, or use non-hit point attacks, I recommend distracting the cleric. Send grapple-ers after him, or cast solid fog on top of him. No line of sight = no healing.

[Deaxsa]

Cast False Cure. It's an instant for 1B that deals damage equal to twice the life gained this turn.

Crap that's for the wrong game isn't it.

Yeah what Flickerdart said. How are your minions doing so little damage combat healing is neutralizing it? Or conversely, how is the cleric healing so much he outpaces incoming damage?

If you don't want to increase the damage of the opponents, or use non-hit point attacks, I recommend distracting the cleric. Send grapple-ers after him, or cast solid fog on top of him. No line of sight = no healing.

good call on the solid fog, and I've already started making them fight more poison/disease monsters. this isn't so much about the fact that he's outpacing the damage, it's that he's only casting the cures. i want him to start thinking a bit more strategically, and less in terms of raw numbers. this is the guy who plays a barbarian or a healer 90% of the time in almost any game. he doesn't care about whether they're green or red, he just wants to see large numbers. i want him to start thinking outside that very small box.

oh, also of note: this is NOT an optimized party. i don't necessarily want them to optimize obsessively, i just want them to start using a bit of strategy. the only player who has tried strategic approaches has been the rogue, and they have always bit him back, just because he's starting out on this path (like sneaking forward and sneak attacking the enemy barbarian). these aren't rues lawyers either, so the fact that barb 5 has uncanny dodge was unknown to him.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Try throwing a Lifeleech Otyugh (MM3) at them. Whenever the cleric heals his teammates, he heals the monster as well!

[Feralventas]

I've found that lone bosses stand very little chances VS players, due to action economy.

If they can somehow stand toe-to-toe with them, the boss can probably one-shot them.

Give him a few minions to slow the party down.

As a suggestion Fantasycraft, another d20 system that translates to 3.5 about as easily as PF does, has a system in which a "boss" or important character in a single conflict gets 1 half action for every player at the table. This would translate to one stander action per PC participating.

Alternatively, Belts of Battle and free-action effects tied to attacks.
>AOO
>auto-trip on attack
>auto-attack because trip

Things like that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Zaryn, Middle-Age Strongheart Water Halfling Druid 6, Greenbound Summoning, Ashbound, Companion Spellbond, Natural Spell. Str 5, Dex 9, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 10. Warbeast Fleshraker Dinosaur companion, Wild Shape into a Fleshraker Dinosaur and then put on his magic items.

Equipment: Four Lesser Metamagic Rods of Extend, two 1st level Pearls of Power. Wand of Camouflage with five charges remaining. Six Potions of Mage Armor. A Monk's Belt crafted from vines and leaves; it only functions for a Druid, and upon his death it immediately wilts and dies, becoming useless. A Circlet of Rapid Casting made from flowers; it only functions for a Druid, and upon his death it immediately wilts and dies, becoming useless. A Ring of the Beast, a gift grown by his favorite oak tree and perfectly shaped to fit him; it only functions for a Druid, and upon his death it immediately wilts and dies, becoming useless.

Buffs with Lesser Rod of Extend: Obscuring Snow; Longstrider twice (self and animal companion, prepared once and use a pearl of power); Snowsight twice (self and animal companion, prepared once and use a pearl of power); Greater Magic Fang twice (self and animal companion, +1 to all natural weapons); Endure Elements twice yesterday (self and animal companion).
Prepared spells: 5/4/4/3; Five remaining charges on the Lesser Rods of Extend.
1st - Longstrider*, Snowsight*, Produce Flame x3
2nd - Obscuring Snow*, Creeping Cold, Kelpstrand, Blood Snow
3rd - Call Lightning, Greater Magic Fang* x2

Keep in mind that opponents won't be able to see anything at all in his Obscuring Snow. Don't put anything on the board in the area of that spell, don't even show where that spell occupies as the current weather conditions will completely obscure its edges. If anyone enters the Obscuring Snow remove their mini from the board, and if they stumble adjacent to anyone else in the spell's area or if Zaryn pounces on them put those minis adjacent to each other off the grid, but they won't know where they are relative to the rest of the party. Just keep in mind where Zaryn is positioned on the grid and where the edges of the Obscuring Snow are.

Tactics:
Track down the PCs because they've trespassed in his cold northern forest, strike at night while the intruders are resting. There are no spots to camp that aren't in the snow. The weather is extremely cloudy, moderate winds (no more than 20 mph), and snowstorm (moderate to heavy precipitation), which means stormy conditions for Call Lightning.
Prior to combat: Use a Potion of Mage Armor on himself and his animal companion. Use the Wand of Camouflage on himself and his animal companion. Instruct his animal companion to circle around but keep its distance and only strike when ordered to do so (they've done this a lot). Cast (Lesser Rod of Extende) Call Lightning. Convert a Produce Flame into a Summon Nature's Ally I for a Greenbound Dire Bat (12 round duration)
Surprise round: The Greenbound Dire Bat uses its Wall of Thorns spell-like ability, targeting it to appear on top of every intruder, trapping them. Zaryn casts (Lesser Rod of Extended) Blood Snow targeting it to be under every intruder.
1st round: Cast (Lesser Rod of Extended) Creeping Cold on the strongest looking opponent (i.e. highest hp). Instruct the Greenbound Dire Bat to swoop in and attack, preferred targets are unarmored or lightly armored with a spell component pouch or holy symbol, then unarmored or lightly armored opponents who aren't nauseated by the blood snow. It can hover over the snow to avoid the Blood Snow's effect.
2nd round: Move in closer, animal companion takes this as its queue to move in closer as well. Animal companion readies an action to partial charge any opponent who escapes the wall of thorns and moves off the blood snow (it can jump over the blood snow with leaping pounce, it lands in the target's square). Greenbound Dire Bat continues attacking the intruders. Zaryn uses Call Lightning to strike an opponent who isn't nauseated by the blood snow, preferring opponents with spell component pouches or holy symbols.
3rd+ round: Greenbound Dire Bat continues attacking. Zaryn continues to call down lightning bolts with call lightning. Animal companion continues to ready to partial charge anyone who gets off the blood snow.

First opponent to escape the blood snow gets pounced by the animal companion. If a second opponent escapes the blood snow, Zaryn will use the Circlet of Rapid Casting to cast Cast (Lesser Rod of Extended) Produce Flame and, remembering he's also in the form of a Fleshraker dinosaur, charge and leaping pounce, dealing fire damage on every hit per holding the charge on a touch spell. If three or more opponents escape the wall of thorns, Zaryn will (Rapid) cast (Lesser Rod of Extended) Kelpstrand on as many opponents as possible. Zaryn's animal companion and his summoned bat will fight to the death. Zaryn will convert his other Produce Flame into another Summon Nature's Ally I for another Greenbound Dire Bat, which will immediately use Wall of Thorns to trap as many opponents as possible and swoop in to melee as above. If Zaryn is injured and has no allies remaining, he'll Wild Shape into a bird and fly up higher, continuing to use Call Lightning and keeping on the move so opponents cannot locate him due to the weather and his Obscuring Snow.

[Andezzar]

oh, also of note: this is NOT an optimized party. i don't necessarily want them to optimize obsessively, i just want them to start using a bit of strategy. the only player who has tried strategic approaches has been the rogue, and they have always bit him back, just because he's starting out on this path (like sneaking forward and sneak attacking the enemy barbarian). these aren't rues lawyers either, so the fact that barb 5 has uncanny dodge was unknown to him.Make a party of adventures. Not TO adventurers but those with sound tactics. If you feel confident, make them obviously a lot weaker (CR or ECL) than the PCs. You may even have that other party steal something valuable and well protected, and send the PCs to investigate them. On the investigation they can find clues how tactically superior they were, despite limited resources.

[Deaxsa]

Make a party of adventures. Not TO adventurers but those with sound tactics. If you feel confident, make them obviously a lot weaker (CR or ECL) than the PCs. You may even have that other party steal something valuable and well protected, and send the PCs to investigate them. On the investigation they can find clues how tactically superior they were, despite limited resources.

thanks, i think i'll try this, it should really drive the point home. i might try the lifeleech otyugh too, but this idea fits much better within the campaign right at this point (and i think will be more effective at making a point)

[Sith_Happens]

[Snip]

Pretty sure that Wall of Thorns blocks line of sight, which means Zaryn has to wait for the PCs to escape it before he can do anything else to him. Same goes for his summons, since looking over the Greenbound template I don't see anything saying they can pass through one without harm.

You also can't ready a partial charge.

[Grinner]

If the party is as optimized as you say they are, tactics is what's going to get the job done. A batman wizard is powerful because he's prepared - if Batman shows up to the wrong fight, he's going to run or get stomped. This is especially true for a level 6 character, as they don't have the raw resources to prepare for every eventuality.

I will second this. (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Pretty sure that Wall of Thorns blocks line of sight, which means Zaryn has to wait for the PCs to escape it before he can do anything else to him. Same goes for his summons, since looking over the Greenbound template I don't see anything saying they can pass through one without harm.

You also can't ready a partial charge.

Wall of Thorns makes no mention of line of sight/effect, nor about granting any sort of concealment. It's a tangled mess of thorny branches, it blocks movement but nothing else.

A readied action is restricted to a standard action, and being restricted to a standard action allows you to partial charge.

[Andezzar]

You also can't ready a partial charge.There isn't even a partial charge in 3.5. Only "If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed)". When the creature readies the action it is still able to take both a move and a standard action so charging is a full round action. You cannot ready it as it is never reduced to a standard action.

[catsora]

Try checking out the summoner class from pathfinder, give the boss the synthesist archetype to become some horrible monster (preferably with large size, martial weapon proficiency, and numerous pairs of arms). The summoner can also pop in a few minions and have some time for self buffing. Have a few dispel magic traps ready to spring when the players are about to initiate the fight.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'd opt for a CR 6ish non-combat encounter. Boss fights are pretty standard, and it will totally be obvious if you tailor the enemy to crush the players and their particular fighting style.

Instead, let's try some kind of EL 6 environment/endurance challenge. Seeing that they can die like pathetic fools even outside of combat will get their brains working outside of the round-to-round combat sphere of thought.

So, I'm thinking about combining a flash flood for a water challenge with a hurricane, to nix the more obvious flying escape plans. For added difficulty, stick debris in the water, adding possibility of being pinned/crushed by fallen trees/building parts that are half-submerged and being pushed around by the current.

Now stack on a role play element, perhaps a morality hook. A friend or relative of the pcs just showed up before the flood happened, and the pcs need to both survive and mount a search and rescue operation.

Tailor the exact combination of challenging circumstances to the intelligence and op-level of the players. If it were my campaign :smallbiggrin: , I'd have the brother of the cleric (or similar emotional touchstone for the party), need rescued from the hurricane/flood at night. The freezing cold characters, drenched to the bone and possibly having ditched some of their equip to facilitate swimming, finally manage to pull the young man onto some floating debris. A sigh of relief, as the weather clears suddenly (the eye of the hurricane). A full moon shines down through the crystal-clear night sky.

And the brother transforms into a werewolf.:smallwink:

[nedz]

I was going to post different suggestions for each of the questions, but I think that there is a common answer.

You should consider using something like an Aboleth or a Beguiler. Basically you attack obliquely using Illusions to confound them. You never let the PC's know what is hitting them — they never even see the protagonist. If they do finally spot him — he just bugs out.

[scurv]

In general All my boss's are made by the same rules that make the PC's house rules included. And actually it can be quite fun to use retired pc's as boss's. Added perk points of that PC's DM is in the party!

But in general If your boss is in his home turf, He is in his home turf! Look at all those cool items you always wanted for your pc And give them to your boss
Tatics I tend to use in brief and vague

Construction:
Its your house, build it, Do you have exploding runes that need enchanted boots not to set them off? How about secret doors where your body guard assassins live? Pick where the fights are going to happen and make it grossly unfair (It is easer to pull your punches then to add to it on the fly)

Distract: Poison and traps are good for this Add in the clock of doom or some other detail to cause the PC's to split their effort. Make them want to split up. Use the arrow of wounding that needs 4 spells to mend the wound else death results. Be creative your players will thank you for it. (although it tends to sound like the F-bomb)


Bottle Neck: Fight on a log or in a hall way! Strong henchmen are good too! Make something for everyone, Your players will thank you again! Anything to keep them from using "Teamwork" On your BBG. That wand of icewall can make nice for this! Heck even archers on the walls to cause them to take cover Combine with a grease spell and a gust of wind and you can divide the party up nicely. Or a mine field works nice too

Manipulative:
One on One combat is good for this! That honor code your LAWFUL what ever has. Make them use it
Tempt the PC with your BBGS crown of powwa (that happens to be epicly cursed in a bad way)
Do your PC's have faults or did any of them pick background traits like hunted? Now is time to cash them in If harrak the warrior has a powerful enemy said powerful enemy might make a nice ally for your boss?
Oh Your priestess is afraid of the water? *hint hint* Anything to disrupt the carefully layed plans and retinue of your party.

Painful choices:
Make the needed thing to do costly to them! Have trolls attack the PC's on a wooden bridge they need....that happens to be covered in highly flammable tar. Things like that they will thank you for it

[Noctani]

Mmm...Don't...have 1 BBEG

Multiple Allid's CR3 incorpreal (4HD) Wisdom Drain (Don't remember)

Multiple kythons CR1 (2HD) 3 attacks each + poison saves (BoVD)
replace feat with improved disarm or improved grapple

Multiple wizards LVL 1

Multiple Feral Orc monks with improved grapple

----------------------------------------------
Drow monk with Argent Fist: SR is usually good against low level characters. Fighter4/Martial Monk2/ArgentFist1
Feats: Improved SR/dodge/mobility/Elusive target
------------------------------------------------

Please elaborate on what you want. It sounds like your players have very linear thinking and you want a way to pull them out. Is that what you are looking to do? It sounds like you are somewhat tired on the fact that they think of there characters more as numbers with abilities that make them versatile instead of their thinking. ( I am making alot of assumptions )

[OracleofWuffing]

Well, I guess they're technically in range of an Adamantine Horror's CR (Monster Manual 2, page 49, look at the Spell-Like Ability list. Understand it. Do not think about it too hard), but it's also tough enough that its typical Assembly isn't going to accompany it. As already stated, an individual boss is typically steamrolled. Legendarily speaking, Tucker's Kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/) were for levels 6-12, so you could throw an Adamantine Horror and... 35 or so Kobolds at them without being what Wizards considers overbearing. Of course, what makes Tucker's Kobolds powerful is not in their statblocks, so if your map and strategy isn't sat up correctly, it'll flop.

Failing that, there's always Candles of Invocations and recursive wishes. :smalltongue:

Hm... I remember one of the E6 optimization challenges was to fight a Balor. Apparently it can be done (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9078182#post9078182), but many tried and failed.

[Curmudgeon]

Spellcasting is the general solution to most things in D&D. As noted, single characters don't fare very well because of the action economy. Add a bunch of low-level monsters, each with their own action (and chance of rolling a 20 to succeed), and you up the challenge.

Let's propose you're the villain, a level 6 Evil Cloistered Cleric with domains Deathbound (Spell Compendium 272-273), Knowledge, and Trickery. You've maximized all your Knowledge skills related to the creature types in the PC party (Knowledge (local) for the Humanoids, & c.). Then at level 6 convert your Knowledge domain to Knowledge Devotion.

Find an old war cemetery. Summon a Small Earth Elemental to dig it up for you. Then use Animate Dead to get yourself an expendable pack of 18 level 1 Warrior Skeleton minions, costing you 450 gp in gems. Use Mending and/or Make Whole to repair the weapons and light armor these Warriors were buried with, and you save yourself some operating costs. (Plus, Skeletons are automatically proficient with whatever weapons and armor they had, so you're covered there if they get into melee.) Now, all of this can be done more than a week in advance of attacking the PCs, so you will have your full daily allotment of spells for the ambush.

There are some interesting things you should note about this group of minions.
Abilities; A skeleton’s Dexterity increases by +2, it has no Constitution or Intelligence score, its Wisdom changes to 10, and its Charisma changes to 1.
A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).
When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line
Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry. Slings are simple ranged weapons, and they're free. Sling bullets only cost a copper piece each. But once you've got those bullets you can spiff some of them up. Deeper Darkness lasts 1 day/CL, or 6 days for you. Cast the spell 3 times/day for the preceding 6 days and you'll be able to give each Skeleton 1 DD bullet, randomly mixed in their ammo pouches.

Your Skeleton minions, bolstered and buffed a bit, can fire their slings en masse, reload, and take 5' steps. The next round they can Run 120'. Instruct the Skeletons to repeat this 2-round sequence until they get into melee and you've got a pretty good distraction going on. Some of the bullets (natural 20s, mostly) will hit, but most won't. What will happen is that you're going to get a bunch of spheres of Deeper Darkness randomly dumped into the vicinity of the PCs, wherever they go. This concealment will mess with their abilities, and maybe make them waste spells in response. But you will have already cast Ebon Eyes (1 hour duration) and will see just fine, thanks.

Trickery domain gives you Invisibility and Nondetection spells. You'll want to (invisibly) dump caltrops between the PCs and the Skeletons; that'll foil melee fighters (chargers especially) pretty handily. Meanwhile, arrows won't do too much to the Skeletons because they've got DR 5/bludgeoning. Spellcasters in the party will blow through their spells trying to deal with 18 scattered attackers.

OK, I'll stop there. This is one way you can put an entire party of PCs on the ropes with a single equal-level opponent. Get them to feel overmatched and burn through their resources, and their real enemy hasn't even attacked — yet. :smallbiggrin: