Charisma, appearence and Personality

[Pesimismrocks]

In 3.5 does having a high charisma mean your charecter is naturally attractive and kind. Can they be ugly, grumpy, arrogant? In essense can i make a Charisma 28 character that is obnoxious arrogant or repulsive?

[Fyermind]

Charisma is a description of how well you convince people to do things. It comes from reading social cues and having good timing with words. High charisma means you can be nice if you want to, but doesn't mean that you are nice. Many real world people with high charisma are often very rude or mean. In fact, they can get away with it more easily averting blame and charming the people they need with their words.

In essence charisma does not dictate: personality or appearance.

[Eonir]

Seeing as there are some abberations that have charisma scores that high, I think it's safe to say that charisma ≠ attractiveness.

[maximus25]

Charisma has nothing to do with appearance, it's all about how you handle yourself, and how you interact with other people.

[Dulenheim]

As many have commented already, Charisma has nothing to do with the Overall appearance of a character. If Anything Charisma is a numerical value that can be used to represent the character's force of personality, and capabilities of convicting people.

How does your character looks, is something purely chosen by you. Your character can be tremendously ugly and still have high charisma if his personality is strong, and he knows his way with words.

hope that helps :smallwink:

[Deaxsa]

i play it as how well you can get your point across, nothing more, nothing less. this fits every single use of charisma i have come across yet (with a few exceptions, most notably turn undead). However, for most abilities, it makes perfect sense. bluff/Diplo? well duh. intimidate? it's more the fact that your grisly description of his remaining chunks is scaring him, not the fact you're a big dude. spellcasting? you're simply channeling your magic better because you are more eloquent about it.

[Flickerdart]

Aboleths (specifically described as revolting in their entry) have 17 Charisma. Ghasts, who are best known for being extremely smelly, have 16 Charisma. A flesh colossus, described in its entry as repugnant, can have a very large Charisma score if the ghosts bound to it had a high one (and ghosts get +4 to Charisma, so the ghost of a random guy bound to a flesh colossus gives it 14 Charisma).

It's pretty clear that even though the description of Charisma says that it's connected to appearance, it's really what's inside that counts.

[Clistenes]

I've stopped trying to understand Charisma.

It measures your attractiveness, people skills, force of personality, self-confidence, willpower...etc. But it either overlaps too much with wisdom or gets confusing.

I mean, a freaking Aboleth, who isn't just ugly as a tumor in a mandril's butthole, but also has a completely alien mindset and isn't used to communicate with humanoids at all save to turn them into robot-like thralls, has Charisma 17? A Beholder has Charisma 16?

And if Charisma is a mental ability, doesn't it overlap too much with Wisdom? Shouldn't wisdom be the meaningful stat with regards to willpower, force of personality and self-confidence, since it is the stat that helps you to avoid being intimidated and to resist unwanted mental influences?

And if it measures self-confidence...it would help diplomacy and bluff checks, but it could also work the other way around. An excess of self-confidence can make you a hated axxhole.

And how is it supposed to power the spells of Sorcerers? I understand how it works for Spirit Shamans, who manipulate spirits, but, what has to do having attractiveness and people's skills with sorcerous magic?.

[Andrewmoreton]

Charisma is your ability to persuade others to accept your viewpoint
the definition is ' compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others,'

Good examples of highly charismatic humans who were at best average appearance are Adolf Hitler and Winston Churchill. Both were able to influence and persuade the populations of their countries and neither would win beauty awards.
Or from a popular TV show G'Kar of Babylon 5 clearly had Charisma as he could persuade and influence those of other races which had very different physical appearances


As for Sorcerors
1) Its magic
2) It used a different stat from Wizards and Clerics
3)It allows for the instinctive magician seperate from the intellectual
4) Perhaps their ability to sway others works on the very winds of magic allowing them a stronger influence
5)If you dont like it either house rule a different stat for sorcerors or if a player don't play one

[Stront]

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

If they have a high charisma; it can be any blend of the above or all of them together. Can a fighter with a nasty face wound have a high charisma? Of course they can, that scar might alone be a reason they garner such high esteem in the eyes of others.

[Felandria]

Both D&D and Pathfinder specify either apperance or attractiveness as part of charisma.

How else are players supposed to settle arguments about which of their characters is hotter?

[Flickerdart]

Both D&D and Pathfinder specify either apperance or attractiveness as part of charisma.

How else are players supposed to settle arguments about which of their characters is hotter?
Wet chainmail contest?

[Rules Lawyer]

IDK - In my game, we sort of use it as both...

We use it to score "attraction" instead of "attractiveness." So, it may not mean anything when the characters are walking down the village road, but when people interact with a high charisma character, then the attraction is more likely to show itself.

That said, when charisma begins to get into the high 20's and beyond, everybody in the game begins referring to the character as "hot."

[Flickerdart]

That said, when charisma begins to get into the high 20's and beyond, everybody in the game begins referring to the character as "hot."
The Atropal has a Charisma of 42. Based on this information, I would like you to decide "hot or not" and then open the following spoiler.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery5a/44165_C5_atropal.jpg

[Cruiser1]

And if Charisma is a mental ability, doesn't it overlap too much with Wisdom? Shouldn't wisdom be the meaningful stat with regards to willpower, force of personality and self-confidence, since it is the stat that helps you to avoid being intimidated and to resist unwanted mental influences?
Wisdom is introverted strength (receptive such as Spot/Listen skills, and perceptive such as Sense Motive), and making will saves. Charisma is extraverted strength (projecting such as Perform, and interactive such as Diplomacy) or doing things that force others to make will saves. Wisdom is perceiving a potential partner just wants a kindred spirit who "gets them". Charisma is being able to effectively act like their ideal partner.

And if it measures self-confidence...it would help diplomacy and bluff checks, but it could also work the other way around. An excess of self-confidence can make you a hated axxhole.
Charisma is self-confidence, but more importantly it's being able to project that self-confidence effectively. Low charisma is what implies being loud, rude, or arrogant (that puts people off). High charisma can sometimes be quiet, but it's a confident quietness that earns respect because it has no need to prove itself.

And how is it supposed to power the spells of Sorcerers? I understand how it works for Spirit Shamans, who manipulate spirits, but, what has to do having attractiveness and people's skills with sorcerous magic?.
Wizardry is a game of chess, where effectiveness or winning in it is based strictly on rules and logic, i.e. Intelligence. Sorcery is a popularity contest, where winning is based on getting other people to like you, or getting magic to submit to your will, i.e. Charisma.

[NotScaryBats]

Just because you are not attracted to x does not mean there are not attractive x's. The atropal could be "undead hot" and aboleths could be "aberration hot" just like beholders could be squicked out by sexy human models.

That said, potential to lead is another facet of charisma.

[Synovia]

Charisma is force of personality.


A sorceror has high charisma not because hes sexy, but because he has a powerful mind/spirit/personality.

[Flickerdart]

Just because you are not attracted to x does not mean there are not attractive x's. The atropal could be "undead hot" and aboleths could be "aberration hot" just like beholders could be squicked out by sexy human models.

That said, potential to lead is another facet of charisma.
In a game with objective morality, why would you have subjective attractiveness?

[Ashtagon]

Intelligence is your ability to understand and classify the universe.

Wisdom is your ability to observe the universe.

Charisma is your ability to impose your will on the universe.

[Qc Storm]

Undeniable proof that Charisma does not involve physical attractiveness :

Atropal is a giant aborted rotting undead fetus.

It has 42 Charisma.

There.

[Alleran]

Undeniable proof that Charisma does not involve physical attractiveness :

Atropal is a giant aborted rotting undead fetus.

It has 42 Charisma.
People can't really refute this point without implicating themselves, you realise. :smallwink:

[TuggyNE]

Undeniable proof that Charisma does not involve physical attractiveness :

Atropal is a giant aborted rotting undead fetus.

It has 42 Charisma.

There.

But other undead, despite having asexual or no reproduction, are automatically changed such that they find it immensely and disturbingly attractive, unlike any other type of creature, including any they might have previously been or thought like!

Seriously, though, physical attractiveness is a small part of Charisma, and can easily be overpowered by the other components.

[Snowbluff]

@^ This guy!


Seeing as there are some abberations that have charisma scores that high, I think it's safe to say that charisma ≠ attractiveness.


Charisma has nothing to do with appearance, it's all about how you handle yourself, and how you interact with other people.


As many have commented already, Charisma has nothing to do with the Overall appearance of a character. If Anything Charisma is a numerical value that can be used to represent the character's force of personality, and capabilities of convicting people.

How does your character looks, is something purely chosen by you. Your character can be tremendously ugly and still have high charisma if his personality is strong, and he knows his way with words.

hope that helps :smallwink:
Charisma has to do with appearance logically and by RAW.

The fact of the matter is the universe uses a human sense of aesthetics. It was written by humans, after all. Charisma has an appearance component (be it badassery, awesomeness, or beauty), and if the appearance was off, the creature makes up for it otherwise.

[Felandria]

Seriously, try telling someone their character's 18 Charisma doesn't make them attractive.

That's why anyone who wants their character to be good looking makes sure not to take a low Charisma.

[TuggyNE]

Seriously, try telling someone their character's 18 Charisma doesn't make them attractive.

That's why anyone who wants their character to be good looking makes sure not to take a low Charisma.

Meh. I'd say there's generally an over-emphasis on that, honestly; a Sorcerer does not warp the universe merely (or even primarily) by looking hot, or adorable, or cute, or whatever else.

They warp it by force of personality and "animal magnetism", which, while often associated with attractiveness, is not fundamentally tied to it.

[Morcleon]

Charisma is a mental stat. Thus, should it not govern a mental trait? In this case, it would be personality, extrovertedness and general gregariousness.


Meh. I'd say there's generally an over-emphasis on that, honestly; a Sorcerer does not warp the universe merely (or even primarily) by looking hot, or adorable, or cute, or whatever else.

TV Tropes would like (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Moe) a word with you (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalGirl)... :smallamused:

[Squirrel_Dude]

In 3.5 does having a high charisma mean your charecter is naturally attractive and kind. Can they be ugly, grumpy, arrogant? In essense can i make a Charisma 28 character that is obnoxious arrogant or repulsive?

According to the SRD, yes.

'Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score" (emphasis added)

So it does, but as others have pointed out, it doesn't really make sense.

The best I can say is that if you are playing an Orc with a really high charisma he is probably attractive, at least to other orcs. Maybe, if you want to say he is also attractive to humans, he's well toned and his muscles are nice and shiny.

So yes, for player characters, it does determine beauty. It doesn't mean that, if you're playing a character with 42 charisma, Aboleths and Bebiliths are going to be throwing their underwear on stage just because they looked at you because you're really attractive. Keep it within the creature subtype I guess.

Inn terms of roleplaying, it could also be any number of those things listed in the ability score description. For example, a fighter with 6 charisma might actually be quite handsome, but incredibly blunt, uncouth, and overall just have difficulty speaking complete sentences.


Sidenote: Oh hai look concepts of morality and ability scores don't translate well when they are categorized. Clearly this is a problem with the translation, and not he underlying concept.

[Ashtagon]

"Don't hate me because I'm beautiful. Hate me because I'm a vain, selfish bitch who treats others like dirt."

Supermodel beauty, 6 Charisma.

[tadkins]

If it was about beauty, wouldn't Charisma vary depending on the company?

I'm sure that female ogre wouldn't be very attractive to humans or elves, but male ogres would probably disagree.

[FyreByrd]

Charisma is a mental stat. Thus, should it not govern a mental trait? In this case, it would be personality, extrovertedness and general gregariousness.


UGH apologies for blatant hobby-horseness


Charisma has nothing to do with being extroverted or gregarious. I know a good many people who are excellent leaders, have a force of personality, and could convince many people to go along with them....yet are not in the slightest extrovert, or really gregarious at all.

[Flickerdart]

If it was about beauty, wouldn't Charisma vary depending on the company?

I'm sure that female ogre wouldn't be very attractive to humans or elves, but male ogres would probably disagree.
And yet there are half-ogres.

[Venger]

And yet there are half-ogres.

that's what happens when commoners don't have knowledge (local) as a class skill

[Cirrylius]

TV Tropes would like a word with you... :smallamused:
NO! NO TvTropes! I JUST got out of Betty Ford after my last two-week bender:smallmad:


"Don't hate me because I'm beautiful. Hate me because I'm a vain, selfish bitch who treats others like dirt."
Supermodel beauty, 6 Charisma.
I'd call that an average of 10, at least. People tend to forgive the very beautiful a LOT.
Although, that makes me wonder... would a situational feat or feat tree to represent physical beauty be over-powered?

[TuggyNE]

Although, that makes me wonder... would a situational feat or feat tree to represent physical beauty be over-powered?

There's no way to be sure until you write it up in Homebrew Design. :smallwink:

[Yora]

Seeing as there are some abberations that have charisma scores that high, I think it's safe to say that charisma ≠ attractiveness.

The Roling Stones are considred sexy by many people and they look like mutated monkeys after a car crash.

[Clistenes]

The Roling Stones are considred sexy by many people and they look like mutated monkeys after a car crash.

But, are they attractive, or is it their legend what is attractive? If you met any of them without knowing who they are, would you find them interesting?

[Felyndiira]

I like to consider it a force of personality, mostly due to the description of someone with "0 charisma" to be not self-aware. Thus, the higher your charisma, the more self-aware you are, and the stronger your personality becomes.

A charisma 8 character, thus, might have a small presence; she might be meek, a bit taken to self-loathing, or in some other way a "small person." A charisma 18 character, on the other hand, might be confident, might project a personable aura, have a boisterous personality, etc. This does not necessarily mean that other people like them as much as how sure they are of themselves (not of their beliefs, but of their personalities and importance in the world).

That's only my interpretation, though.

[Fargazer]

I seem to recall reading somewhere how all the different parts listed for ability scores are only factors, and someone could have an exceedingly good ability score, but still suffer in one or more of those parts. It might not have been the 3.5 Handbook though.

The obvious corollary is that the 18 CHA character you just made is snooty, obnoxious, and has no force of personality whatsoever, but is really, REALLY attractive.

[Deaxsa]

I seem to recall reading somewhere how all the different parts listed for ability scores are only factors, and someone could have an exceedingly good ability score, but still suffer in one or more of those parts. It might not have been the 3.5 Handbook though.

The obvious corollary is that the 18 CHA character you just made is snooty, obnoxious, and has no force of personality whatsoever, but is really, REALLY attractive.

and an idea sprouting off of this is that you can have a character who has 18 STR, and looks extremely toned and muscular, but is actually very weak.

I would simply argue that the people who believe attractiveness=charisma have low wisdom and are easily fooled by the attractive person's percieved bluff and diplomacy. :belkar: (there isn't a mischievous, mean grin so i just used belkar.. which is a mischievous, mean grin! oh.)

[Felandria]

I just don't like how people here are trying to take the RAW and throw it in the garbage for no good reason.

Why is it so important for people to take attractiveness out of Charisma?

A lot of people pump up their Charisma for that exact purpose, are people wanting to go to a particular player and say "HA! Just because you have a high Charisma doesn't mean your character is pretty, you don't get to say you're attractive anymore, so there."

If two characters are wanting to use their looks to get something done, how else are you supposed to decide which one is better suited?

Charisma score.

One has a 17, the other a 16, the 17 wins, the end.

Otherwise, chaos.

[Roog]

Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats, living together! Mass hysteria!

[ArcturusV]

I have no problems with Charisma representing physical beauty myself. Though typically I just add in the Appearance stat from BoEF, and allow it's alternate use for certain skills.

Then again, I don't use Point Buys either. So it doesn't mess with Statting to have an extra stat. It's just one more instance of throwing 3d6.

[Ashtagon]

I'm happy to accept that physical attractiveness represents about 1/3 of Charisma, as perceived by others of your same species (or, generously, of the same attitude regarding body/face aesthetics). Outside of that, all bets are off.

[maximus25]

Book of Erotic fantasy addresses this, as odd a source book as it is. It adds the Appearance ability score, stating that Charisma is an odd way to do physical appearance, being a mental score and all.

[SimonMoon6]

I've stopped trying to understand Charisma.

It measures your attractiveness, people skills, force of personality, self-confidence, willpower...etc. But it either overlaps too much with wisdom or gets confusing.

I mean, a freaking Aboleth, who isn't just ugly as a tumor in a mandril's butthole, but also has a completely alien mindset and isn't used to communicate with humanoids at all save to turn them into robot-like thralls, has Charisma 17? A Beholder has Charisma 16?

Extra qualities (like attractiveness) are a part of Charisma, but I've always seen the main aspect as being "force of personality" or in other words, "how well you can get people to do what you want them to."

Some people with a high Charisma are scary, unlikeable people. They get you to do what they want by being scary. A beholder's version of Charisma isn't "My, what a nice shirt you're wearing. Can we be friends?". Instead, a beholder's version of Charisma is "Raaaah! I'm a big scary monster. You're gonna do what I say, right?"

Of course, some people with a high Charisma are nice people. And some of those people are attractive. And some people with a high Charisma are silver tongued devils (sociopaths). A high Charisma can manifest itself in different ways for different personalities.

And the thing is: if you have a low Charisma, you don't get to be some awesomely obnoxious character that everybody hates and fears. No. That would imply that you have some ability to affect other people's opinions, which is the sign of a high Charisma. Instead, you're a nebbish. Nobody cares about you. You're either the painfully shy wallflower or the guy gibbering away in the corner about stuff that nobody cares about. Nobody pays you a second glance unless you're trying not to attract attention at which point everybody points and laughs at you.


And yeah, the "self confidence" and "willpower" stuff overlaps with Wisdom. But strength and constitution are two stats that overlap in the real world. How many healthy (high con) people in the real world don't exercise (have a decent str)? And if I were in charge of the next Edition of D&D, I'd remove wisdom as an ability score because it makes no sense to me. (Wisdom can measure: how wisely your character makes decisions-- which is up to the player anyway-- or force of will (charisma) or ability to interact with deities (charisma) and not much else. I'd toss in a Perception stat and put all the non-perception related wisdom-related abilities under charisma instead. (This would have the advantage of making Cha less of a dump stat for characters, since you'd need it for will saves.)



An excess of self-confidence can make you a hated axxhole.

Yeah, if I were making a game from scratch, I'd make certain advantageous abilities also have disadvantages as well. You want to be so stubborn that nobody can change your mind (or control your mind)? Fine, but you're such a stubborn hole that nobody likes you and you can't learn new things.

But strangely, in the real world, confidence is a big turn-on for most people. Women *love* a confident man, even if that confidence is misguided. A confident moron is much sexier than a smart guy who admits he doesn't always have the answer. People don't want a leader who can admit when he's wrong. People don't want to follow someone who is capable of changing his mind. Anybody who can admit he was wrong and change his views is seen as "waffling". You've got to stay the course.




And how is it supposed to power the spells of Sorcerers? I understand how it works for Spirit Shamans, who manipulate spirits, but, what has to do having attractiveness and people's skills with sorcerous magic?.

Forget the attractiveness part and think of the "force of personality" part. You have to have the willpower to manipulate the forces of reality.

[Darius Kane]

Shy and meek. 18 Cha.
http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/047/5/2/fluttershy_by_xinternalbleedingx-d4pw6t9.jpg

[KillianHawkeye]

Normally I would say that no, beauty or attractiveness do not play more than the smallest part in figuring your Charisma score.

That being said, we do use it that way at our table because we are immature. :smallamused::smallsigh:

[Yora]

The biggest problem with appearance scores is, that there simply aren't any rolls to which you would add your appearance modifier. Nothing you do is influenced by your appearance, except maybe beauty contests, and even then your Charisma might make the actual difference.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I feel the need to point out that games that goes by the rule that Charisma = Attractiveness also supports that Attractiveness = Less Intelligence and/or Physically weaker

How so?

You need divide up points/rolls in your ability scores, if you invest in Charisma you've got to take the drop somewhere such as Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence or Wisdom.

So in other words you are physically or mentally weaker for the sake of appearance, and as much as media might like to say it appearance doesn't make someone less capable.

Realistically attractiveness could cause people be kinder/do more things for you so that you being less experienced wouldn't develop your skills as well, but many attractive people still go out of their way to challenge themselves.

[ArcturusV]

I think the odder point to make? If Cha = Appearance/physical attractiveness... as you age, and are basically turning into a sack of bones with liver spots, balding, covered in visible veins, etc, you are actually hotter than you were when you were at the peak of your physical condition, as Charisma increases with Age Category.

[Snowbluff]

I think the odder point to make? If Cha = Appearance/physical attractiveness... as you age, and are basically turning into a sack of bones with liver spots, balding, covered in visible veins, etc, you are actually hotter than you were when you were at the peak of your physical condition, as Charisma increases with Age Category.

Sean Connery.

[Ashtagon]

Sean Connery.

counterpoint: just about every female celebrity ever.

[Savith9]

In 3.5 does having a high charisma mean your charecter is naturally attractive and kind. Can they be ugly, grumpy, arrogant? In essense can i make a Charisma 28 character that is obnoxious arrogant or repulsive?

I would say yes and no... due to the fact that for example characters with low charisma could easily look just as attractive as somone with a higher charisma but their personality could be what causes them to be repulsive, likewise it could be opposite, being ugly and having a great personality with a high charisma. The norm that most people associate charisma with is looks, and based on that alone yes you could.

[Alleran]

There's no way to be sure until you write it up in Homebrew Design. :smallwink:
I think Pathfinder has a bunch of them.

[Squirrel_Dude]

counterpoint: just about every female celebrity ever.Counterpiont; Betty White

[Ashtagon]

Counterpiont; Betty White

Well, if you really think she's hotter, more power to you I guess.

More charismatic, sure. But that wasn't what was being lampshaded.

[Synovia]

I just don't like how people here are trying to take the RAW and throw it in the garbage for no good reason.

Why is it so important for people to take attractiveness out of Charisma?


Because Attractiveness is clearly a throwaway word in the description. Because everything that CHA does in the game (like increasing as you age) runs counter to physical beauty.

"Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting."

The bolding is mine.

Physical Attractiveness, is, by its very nature, perception based.

If you have a Human whose charisma is based on physical attractiveness, they should get a huge penalty when dealing with races that don't find humans attractive.

It just makes more sense if CHA is force of personality, and Attractiveness is a line on a character sheet.

[hymer]

The part you bolded doesn't have to mean that perception is no part of it - just that it's not only that. The only way you can read that bit of text and leave looks out is if you're trying to do that. You seem to be reading an ambiguous line in a certain way and conveniently 'throw away' (as it were) what came before.

[Synovia]

The part you bolded doesn't have to mean that perception is no part of it -.

The line specifically says that CHA represents actual ability, not perception of said ability. There's no way to have actual, objective beauty. Beauty is 100% perception.

CHA=Beauty is clearly something that was in the books from AD&D, doesn't make any sense anymore, but is still there. Its a vestigal organ.

[SowZ]

I play it as charisma can be either attractiveness or force of personality, though usually a combination of both. Someone with 14 Charisma can have good looks or good personality. Someone with 19 Charisma can probably have good both. I don't actually force my players to make a decision in that regard, but I consider it with NPCs and it is how I describe it to my players.

[Darius Kane]

Good thing Pathfinder changed "physical attractiveness" into "appearance" preventing this type of discussions...
I'd like to reiterate the fact that Intelligence, Wisdom AND Charisma are mental stats. Whatever is said in their descriptions, you have to read it with that fact in mind.

[Synovia]

Good thing Pathfinder changed "physical attractiveness" into "appearance" preventing this type of discussions...
I'd like to reiterate the fact that Intelligence, Wisdom AND Charisma are mental stats. Whatever is said in their descriptions, you have to read it with that fact in mind.

Which is a good point. If you get polymorphed into the ugliest creature in the world, your charisma does not change. At all. Because CHA is a mental skill.

[hymer]

@ Synovia: It says 'not merely'. A clarification could be either "This ability represents actual strength of personality, not how one is perceived by others in a social setting" which is what you're taking it to mean.
Another clarification could be "This ability represents actual strength of personality, besides merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting".

'Not merely' can be taken to mean more than the one thing you take it to mean. And you must ignore a part of the preceding sentence to make it mean what you want it to in that context.

[Synovia]

'Not merely' can be taken to mean more than the one thing you take it to mean. And you must ignore a part of the preceding sentence for that to make it mean what you want it to in that context.
I take your point in that it could be interpreted differently.

But again, almost none of the rules that deal with Charisma make any sense with regards to beauty.

You get more attractive as you age? Nope.
Undead can take more damage as they get sexier? Nope.
Being Sexy means you can blow up undead? Maybe if you're....
A Sorceress can cast more spells because she has big boobs? nope.

There are a handful of skills that work with Physical Attractiveness, but they all work better with Force Of Personality.

A bluff works better when you sound like you know what you're talking about, than when you're just cute.

[hymer]

Oh, I agree it makes little sense. But as someone has in their sig somewhere: That's RAW for you. 100% rules legal. 110% silly. :smallsmile:

[Synovia]

Oh, I agree it makes little sense. But as someone has in their sig somewhere: That's RAW for you. 100% rules legal. 110% silly. :smallsmile:

I've said a couple of times, and I'll say it again:

There is no such thing as RAW. It is literally impossible to read something longer than about 3 words without adding your own interpretation. That's why we have lawyers.

Fantasy game rule books aren't written in legalese.

[Duke of Urrel]

Please ignore the following if you're not interested in homebrew, but if you are... I present to you my rules for...

Physical Attractiveness

If you are physically attractive to a NPC, your Bluff and Diplomacy skill checks add a +4 attractiveness bonus with respect to this NPC. In this posting, I will show how I determine whether you qualify as physically attractive.

Your Charisma score is only one of three factors that determine how physically attractive you are. The other two factors are your Constitution score and your youth. To determine your potential for physical attractiveness, or PPA, start with a base score of 10.

• Add your Charisma modifier.

• Add your Constitution modifier, but do not count any racial bonus or penalty to your Constitution score. Only a Constitution score that is above or below average for someone of your own species either adds to or subtracts from your PPA.

• If you are no longer a young adult, add –2 to your PPA if you are middle-aged, –4 if you are old, or –6 if you are venerable.

If you use a disguise (either a mundane disguise or a magical one) successfully to look like a young adult, you greatly improve your PPA, because when you look young, this number adds the Constitution modifier that you seem to have and no age penalty. However, no disguise, no matter how craftily made, can eliminate a Charisma penalty.

To determine whether somebody finds you physically attractive, you have to flirt with this person, whom I’ll call your “opponent” here, for about a minute or so. Usually, your opponent must be of your own species, but there are exceptions to this rule.

If you are of the right species and the right sex to be attractive to your opponent (or if you appear to be because you are wearing a disguise), I roll a secret check for your opponent that adds only your opponent’s Wisdom or Charisma modifier, whichever is higher. (High Wisdom bestows the willpower to resist infatuation, whereas high Charisma bestows elevated esthetic standards.) If this Charisma check scores less than the number that represents your PPA, your opponent feels physically attracted to you.

Usually, if someone feels physically attracted to you, it becomes obvious after only a minute of flirting. However, a cautious or shy opponent who feels physically attracted to you may try to conceal this feeling. In this case, you must make a Sense Motive check against your opponent’s Bluff check in order to know the truth.

[Rektro]

Charisma is force of personality.


A sorceror has high charisma not because hes sexy, but because he has a powerful mind/spirit/personality.

Pretty sure in the srd it states sorcerers are usually sexy. Not word for word but they still are attractive.

[Flickerdart]

Pretty sure in the srd it states sorcerers are usually sexy. Not word for word but they still are attractive.
It must be all those belts they wear. No woman can resist the sight of so many belts.

[Ashtagon]

It must be all those belts they wear. No woman can resist the sight of so many belts.

I'm sure those belts have other uses too.

[Savith9]

Whats wrong with too many belts? they come in handy, much harder to play practical jokes on your character too

[ArcturusV]

Dress of Belts +5 Cha. :smallbiggrin: http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.5051105726890970&pid=15.1

[Yora]

And she actually is a sorcerer. :smallbiggrin:

[Felandria]

Please ignore the following if you're not interested in homebrew, but if you are... I present to you my rules for...

Physical Attractiveness

If you are physically attractive to a NPC, your Bluff and Diplomacy skill checks add a +4 attractiveness bonus with respect to this NPC. In this posting, I will show how I determine whether you qualify as physically attractive.

Your Charisma score is only one of three factors that determine how physically attractive you are. The other two factors are your Constitution score and your youth. To determine your potential for physical attractiveness, or PPA, start with a base score of 10.

• Add your Charisma modifier.

• Add your Constitution modifier, but do not count any racial bonus or penalty to your Constitution score. Only a Constitution score that is above or below average for someone of your own species either adds to or subtracts from your PPA.

• If you are no longer a young adult, add –2 to your PPA if you are middle-aged, –4 if you are old, or –6 if you are venerable.

If you use a disguise (either a mundane disguise or a magical one) successfully to look like a young adult, you greatly improve your PPA, because when you look young, this number adds the Constitution modifier that you seem to have and no age penalty. However, no disguise, no matter how craftily made, can eliminate a Charisma penalty.

To determine whether somebody finds you physically attractive, you have to flirt with this person, whom I’ll call your “opponent” here, for about a minute or so. Usually, your opponent must be of your own species, but there are exceptions to this rule.

If you are of the right species and the right sex to be attractive to your opponent (or if you appear to be because you are wearing a disguise), I roll a secret check for your opponent that adds only your opponent’s Wisdom or Charisma modifier, whichever is higher. (High Wisdom bestows the willpower to resist infatuation, whereas high Charisma bestows elevated esthetic standards.) If this Charisma check scores less than the number that represents your PPA, your opponent feels physically attracted to you.

Usually, if someone feels physically attracted to you, it becomes obvious after only a minute of flirting. However, a cautious or shy opponent who feels physically attracted to you may try to conceal this feeling. In this case, you must make a Sense Motive check against your opponent’s Bluff check in order to know the truth.

Going by either your rules or my Charisma score, either way I have a 20, so I'm fine either way:smallbiggrin:

[NOhara24]

I'm going to go ahead and take a swing at this dead horse everyone's whupping on.

In my games, Charisma both dictates your character's attractiveness and force of personality.

Physical looks + FoP = Charisma. They're two parts that combine as a whole; those parts don't have to be equal portions.

If I have a player that is playing a drop-dead gorgeous sorceress, but either through RP or poor conversational skills always says something bad when I ask "Okay, you're rolling diplomacy, that's great, but what do you actually say to him to convince him of your way of thinking?" I have no problem saying that character gets by off of their looks alone. (Like many celebrity these days.)

It works out when people point out monsters that are perceived as ugly that still have high charisma despite their looks. Yes, an Aboleth is outright disgusting, but the average person would have a pretty hard time saying no to it if it asked you a favor in a purely diplomatic discussion because it's terrifying.

tl;dr

The PHB definition of charisma checks out.

[Felandria]

I'm going to go ahead and take a swing at this dead horse everyone's whupping on.

In my games, Charisma both dictates your character's attractiveness and force of personality.

Physical looks + FoP = Charisma. They're two parts that combine as a whole; those parts don't have to be equal portions.

If I have a player that is playing a drop-dead gorgeous sorceress, but either through RP or poor conversational skills always says something bad when I ask "Okay, you're rolling diplomacy, that's great, but what do you actually say to him to convince him of your way of thinking?" I have no problem saying that character gets by off of their looks alone. (Like many celebrity these days.)

It works out when people point out monsters that are perceived as ugly that still have high charisma despite their looks. Yes, an Aboleth is outright disgusting, but the average person would have a pretty hard time saying no to it if it asked you a favor in a purely diplomatic discussion because it's terrifying.

tl;dr

The PHB definition of charisma checks out.

Exactly, my character is a beautiful sorceress, she's also six four ( initially ), so for things like Intimidate, her looks and size combined would make your average NPC villager a stammering schoolboy, like if a supermodel walked right up to a guy and started talking to them.

So the whole Charisma attractiveness thing makes sense when you think about the fact that being hot doesn't neccesarily help with spell casting, it sure as heck does with Charisma based skills.

[Yora]

Did anyone ever come up with anything where your appearance modifier would be added to a roll?

[hymer]

Considering that beautiful people get smaller sentences in courts, it might well have some effect on Bluff and Diplomacy. But I wouldn't change it for those. Maybe certain perform checks, like Dance, and if Apperance includes a beautiful voice, Sing.
But then again, I wouldn't instate an Appearance score in the first place. It isn't sufficiently universal the way the other scores are.

[Scow2]

In D&D, Charisma determines physical attractiveness, but Physical Attractiveness does NOT determine Charisma. Those who have a stronger Force of personality generally end up maturing into something percieved as more attractive - if anything, they set the standards for physical beauty (At least if they're humanoid. Aberrations go by a different standard), instead of conforming to them.

Those that think they're beautiful with low CHA are just poser tryhards.

[ArcturusV]

Lots of things. Bluff, Dip, Intimidate, Gather Information are the standard go to skills I look for alternate uses of Appearance rather than Charisma. Depending of course on how the character approaches it. Sometimes let them sub out for other skills based on obvious applicability.

Example: There's no way Profession (Dirt Farmer) might apply appearance. However Profession (Merchant) can. Sex sells as people know and that's not a new idea. So you can use your appearance to make money with Profession (Merchant), though using it to say, figure out which of several possible workers are the best to hire would still operate off Wisdom.