Eldritch Outcast (3.5 template, PEACH)

[Plato Play-Doh]

Here's the template for my creation, the Eldritch Outcast! Tell me what you think!

Eldritch Outcast

This template may be applied to any creature. Alternatively, it may apply to an object, which then loses all enchantments. Other than that, it is the same as the base creature or object except that it gains the following special quality:

Aura of Negation (Ex)
Eldritch Outcasts are surrounded by an aura that negates magic. This functions as an Antimagic Field cast at the Outcast's ECL or CR, covering only the Outcast himself and any objects or creatures touching or being touched by him - but only as long as they are touching him. Magical effects (spells/SLAs/items) can overcome the Aura of Negation with a successful Caster Level check of 15 + the outcast's ECL or CR. If they are an object, it functions as and antimagic field cast at the Outcast's hardness, and it can be overcome with a caster level check equal to 15 plus the Outcast's hardness.

LA: +2

[Zireael]

So it's like a disease that spreads by touching? Why not stat it up as a disease?

Also, does "being abandoned by eldritch energies" mean they were once mages? Regardless, I'd forbid them from becoming any type of caster.

[Plato Play-Doh]

I wouldn't call it a disease, since only this race has it permanently. Everybody else is just "tainted" for a week after being touched. It's not that they were once mages, necessarily, but that they are, for whatever reason, born blocked off from magic. I should probably prevent them from being casters at all, but I'll leave having to get through spell resistance for the purposes of spell-like/supernatural abilities. I'm kind of debating making this a template of sorts to be applied to any race, but I'm not sure because that would entail more of an LA, which I'm not really a big fan of, particularly since my group tends to start at low level, and high LA races/templates aren't usually allowed.

[killer_monk]

The 15+ level magic thing seems a little high. at high levels pretty much every party relies on magic to some extent, so a free anti-magic field is a big step. Personally, i'd use this brilliant template and apply it to monsters! even high level parties would be screwed, it like a Rust-Monster for magic!:smallcool:

I'd set the LA around +6-7. like i said, free antimagic mage killer skills.

[Plato Play-Doh]

The 15+ level magic thing seems a little high. at high levels pretty much every party relies on magic to some extent, so a free anti-magic field is a big step. Personally, i'd use this brilliant template and apply it to monsters! even high level parties would be screwed, it like a Rust-Monster for magic!:smallcool:

I'd set the LA around +6-7. like i said, free antimagic mage killer skills.

Yeah, but they also can't use magic items (or even touch any that they don't want to destroy). Also, the spell resistance can't be lowered, so it applies to beneficial spells as well.

Edit: That also means they can't get a fly spell used on them, so the mage in question will likely just go out of reach, although applying it to a monster is, indeed, a very good idea... *evil grin* mwahahahaha!

[TheWombatOfDoom]

What about treatment of artifacts? What about antimagic spells, are they also dispelled?

I'd suggest lowering the amount of time an inflicted person takes on the anti magic properties...and give it a save. What races do they effect? All? Some? Specify.

Unmodified, this race would be in a setting made for them, which they appear to be. Just remember, destroying a magic item might not be the term to use. You may want to have it be antimagiced for a time, otherwise, the world is going to be without magic items VERY quickly. Especially since this happens by touch and lasts for a week. However, this could explain why magic items are in remote places like dungeons, but no where else. They got destroyed on the surface.

I'd recommend powering it down a bit, even if there's a low population about it, because as it is, its gamebreaking for the party, or the world. The world could be salvaged IF you got the world cooked up right, but it'd still be very hard to do.

[Plato Play-Doh]

I got rid of the destruction, (now just suppression) and took out the duration on the touch (it is now just until they are no longer in contact), which already had a save, and affects any creatures in contact with the outcast. The trait that has to do with magic items references antimagic field, which doesn't affect artifacts or deities. After those changes, is it a bit better?

[4th number]

It might be better as a template, actually. LA +2 doesn't sound unreasonable.

[Plato Play-Doh]

It might be better as a template, actually. LA +2 doesn't sound unreasonable.

Yeah, I was considering turning it into a template. Chances are good that I'll actually do that.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I got rid of the destruction, (now just suppression) and took out the duration on the touch (it is now just until they are no longer in contact), which already had a save, and affects any creatures in contact with the outcast. The trait that has to do with magic items references antimagic field, which doesn't affect artifacts or deities. After those changes, is it a bit better?

Muuuuch better. 4th is right, since most of their things are an "as human", its basically a template. A level adjustment of three is likely then, due to SR qualities. That way the playing field is at least a little more even versus caster levels and SR. I'd check out the monster manual, and see what things with SR are for CR, and have that help you.

[Plato Play-Doh]

Looking at the Drow:

How they are weaker than Eldritch Outcasts:

They get -2 to one ability
They have less SR
They have light blindness
They can't take away magic from people by touching them
They don't count as an antimagic field for magic weapons
They don't count as an antimagic field for ongoing magical effects

How they are stronger than Eldritch Outcasts:

They gain +2 to three abilities
They have Darkvision
They have +2 to will against spells
They have spell-like abilities
They can cast spells
They gain 2 additional languages automatically
They can use magic items
They can turn off their SR for beneficial spells
They can touch people without taking away their magic
They are immune to sleep affects
They gain an additional +2 to saves against all spells
They gain automatic proficiencies
They gain a +2 racial bonus to three skills
They gain automatic searching for hidden doors

The Drow have +2 LA.

It seems like the Drow are more powerful (as a race) than the Outcasts, particularly considering that the Outcast can't use enchanted items or benefit from spells. If I were to leave them as a race rather than as a template (not that I intend to), wouldn't the Outcasts have a lower LA than the drow due to this, or is the enhanced SR and antimagic good enough to make up for it? I honestly can't tell.

[Pyromancer999]

This looks like an altered version of the Karsite from Tome of Magic. You may want to check that out.

[Zireael]

I'd put the LA as +1, *maybe* +2.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Going through a bunch of other LA +1's, I'd say +2. Exnay the 3 vote I had earlier, you made some good points.

[Plato Play-Doh]

This looks like an altered version of the Karsite from Tome of Magic. You may want to check that out.

After looking at that, I think it really doesn't fit with my concept. It's OK, but I like not being able to use magic items at all for this, and not being able to control the antimagic, which the Karsite can.


I'd put the LA as +1, *maybe* +2.


Going through a bunch of other LA +1's, I'd say +2. Exnay the 3 vote I had earlier, you made some good points.

Alright. I'm going to get rid of the race altogether, and set the template at +2. Maybe make an example stat block, but probably not, since it's a fairly simple template. Also, what would CR adjustment be? Is that the same as the LA, or should it be different?

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Alright. I'm going to get rid of the race altogether, and set the template at +2. Maybe make an example stat block, but probably not, since it's a fairly simple template. Also, what would CR adjustment be? Is that the same as the LA, or should it be different?

Savage species could better explain that than I could...perhaps ask in the D & D portions of the forums?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The template has a number of mechanical issues here;



Spell Resistance 15+HD. This cannot be voluntarily lowered, and applies to all spells that would affect an Eldritch Outcast, even if they would not normally be affected by spell resistance.
Spell Resistance should probably be dependent on CR, not HD. Creatures that otherwise have the same overall power (i.e. CR) might have different racial HD - thus get significantly different SR if you base it off HD. That causes problems in how the template would affect the final CR of the monster.

The second problem is in the last sentence (even if they would not normally be affected by spell resistance). OK, the Eldritch Outcast has spell resistance. He enters an area affected by Darkness or Light or Silence. The spell isn't affecting him - it's affecting the area and that's why it has SR: No. There's nothing for him to resist. Does his ability allow him to negate the spell? If yes, is the entire spell negated, does the darkness simply vanish for him or is he unable to see the light?

Another type of spells with SR: No are conjurations. Someone conjures a Wall of Stone, or a Wall of Iron. The spells are magic but the result of the spells are nonmagical - would this ability allow him to negate such effects?
Similarly, what if a spellcaster uses Telekinesis to hurl objects at the Outcast or Earthquake/Transmute Stone to Mud to do bad things to the ground beneath his feet but not directly to the Outcast himself?



Whenever an Eldritch Outcast touches an ongoing magical effect or item, it is suppressed as though by an Antimagic Field until it is no longer in contact with the Outcast.
Define "touch". Lots of spell effects aren't physical effects to be touched. Obscuring Mist for example. And other effects have a wide area - does the Outcast suppress the effect only in his own area or the entire effect?

Also, suppose the target the Outcast was attempting to touch had a Ring of Protection giving him deflection bonus to AC. Would that (magical) bonus prevent the Outcast from touching them? How about if they had Foresight, giving them an insight bonus (i.e. see the future to dodge better) to their AC? Would that prevent the touch? How about a spell boosting their dexterity so they could dodge plain better?


Any creature that an Eldritch Outcast touches takes on the special qualities of an Eldritch Outcast until they are no longer in contact with the Outcast unless they make a fortitude save equal to the Outcast’s spell resistance.
OK, say an Eldritch Outcast has an AC of 25. A warrior with a +5 magic sword and +6 belt of strength swings, rolls a 27 in his attack and hits him. Does hitting him with the sword count as "touching"? What happens when the Outcast negates the sword's enhancement bonus? Does the warrior lose the +5 bonus to his attack rolls, lowering the 27 into a 23 and thus turning the hit into a miss? Does the warrior lose both his enhancement bonus and his strength bonus from the belt? How does this affect the damage and attack bonus of an attack already swung?
(and if it doesn't affect an attack already swung, doesn't this mean it will never affect them? To do the next attack the warrior will stop "touching" the Outcast and the bonuses will revert while he swings - only to go away as soon as he hits)


Eldritch Outcasts are incapable of using spells or spell-like abilities.
This would prevent you from assigning a set CR increase to the template. Apply this ability to a giant and he gets no penalties whatsoever - only bonuses. Apply it to an angel or dragon (or any creature with SLAs or spells) and they lose a huge amount of their combat ability.
So you'd need to set a different CR increase (or decrease) depending on how many magical abilities the creature used to have but lost due to the template.

[Plato Play-Doh]

I've made changes to better clear up how certain qualities would work, as well as slightly modifying what the template can apply to (it now can apply to objects). I originally had the "no spells" quality require the Outcast to overcome its own spell resistance, and allow it to cast spells if it could do so, but it was suggested that I change that. Would it be better if I put that back in?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The problem stems from trying to use a passive ability (spell resistance) as an active one. This is resolved fairly easily by replacing the entire template with this ability;

Aura of Negation (Ex)
Eldritch Outcasts are surrounded by an aura that negates magic. This functions as an Antimagic Field cast at the Outcast's ECL or CR, covering only the Outcast himself and any objects or creatures touching or being touched by him - but only as long as they are touching him.
Magical effects (spells/SLAs/items) can overcome the Aura of Negation with a successful Caster Level check of 15 + the outcast's CR.

[Plato Play-Doh]

Yeah, I suppose I should just do that. I'll still put it in the form of a template for the sake of describing ECl/CR adjustment, but upon seeing it put that way, I think it's probably best if I made use of that ability, as it is far more easily understood.