Epic Spell Rules

[IamL]

I've been running a campaign for quite a while, and the characters have finally reached epic level. The human wizard, now level 23, is wanting to craft his own epic spell. I was wondering if I could have some input as to how much time a spell would take to research, how much the character should have control over the exact spell effects (i.e. how powerful the character can make the spell, the range of the spell, the number of targets, etc.), and so on. Thanks!

(edit): I forgot to add that the wizard is a generalist, if that changes anything.

[jaynus006]

Page 88 of the epic level hand book outlines the entire process including time cost and effect, it varies a lot based on what he wants the spell to do. Do you know what he is looking to create?

[Lanaya]

All that stuff's in the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm)

[Jack_Simth]

I've been running a campaign for quite a while, and the characters have finally reached epic level. The human wizard, now level 23, is wanting to craft his own epic spell. I was wondering if I could have some input as to how much time a spell would take to research, how much the character should have control over the exact spell effects (i.e. how powerful the character can make the spell, the range of the spell, the number of targets, etc.), and so on. Thanks!

(edit): I forgot to add that the wizard is a generalist, if that changes anything.

The Epic Spell Rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm), such as they are, are not all that good. You find a seed that does most of what you want, another that does the rest, and do the maths. If you don't mitigate heavily, then you're not going to be able to cast a spell that's worth a non-epic spell slot. If you do mitigate heavily, there's no real clear place to stop, and you quickly end up with enough permanent summons to transport the entire galaxy to wherever you want. They've got that "DM approval" clause, which is useful, but... blech.

[IamL]

The mage, chaotic neutral, was looking for a summon/slay-type spell that would summon a number of creatures and instantaneously kill them (no save allowed, only an epic spell can counter it).

[Jack_Simth]

The mage, chaotic neutral, was looking for a summon/slay-type spell that would summon a number of creatures and instantaneously kill them (no save allowed, only an epic spell can counter it).

Are you sure you actually want to allow a no-save-just-die that you can pop off from literally anywhere?

I mean, Forsee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/foresee.htm) can find them, Summon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/summon.htm) can bring them to you once found, Slay (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/slay.htm) can kill them, but while Forsee doesn't permit a save, Summon and Slay both do (Will and Fort). Technically, if you agree that finding them is the most important part, then the saving throw clause in development would say go for it... but really, that's a bad idea.

And it'd still permit SR.

[IamL]

It would still permit spell resistance, of course. He is also willing to spend a ridiculous amount of time researching the spell.

Maybe I should have a required wizard level for him to become before researching said spell?

[Daftendirekt]

Page 88 of the epic level hand oil

... 10charlolwut

[Clistenes]

I hate both epic spellcasting and epic magic items. They break the game beyond repair. They are to normal rules what Dragon Ball Z is to kung-fu movies.

If it were me, every Epic Spell would be a feat. You want to create a mythal? Sure you can, just take the feat "Create Mythal".

[Sith_Happens]

Are you sure you actually want to allow a no-save-just-die that you can pop off from literally anywhere?

I mean, Forsee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/foresee.htm) can find them, Summon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/summon.htm) can bring them to you once found, Slay (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/slay.htm) can kill them,

You're a bit off with some of those seeds.

1. Forsee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/foresee.htm) provides a Divination (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divination.htm)-style effect; going by some of the example spells, you would use Contact (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/contact.htm)+Reveal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/reveal.htm) (with Contact as the base seed of the spell) to locate a creature.

2. The Summon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/summon.htm) seed is a Summoning subschool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning) effect, which means that the creature won't die when killed; Transport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/transport.htm), on the other hand, will bring them to you body and soul.


but while Forsee doesn't permit a save, Summon and Slay both do (Will and Fort).

Technically, if you agree that finding them is the most important part, then the saving throw clause in development would say go for it... but really, that's a bad idea.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the spell would have a saving throw, he just decides whether it's a Will of Fort save. The idea of a "base seed" is in the "Combining Range, Targets, Area, and Effect" section, while "Saving Throws" is a separate section and indicates that as long as any of the seeds have a saving throw, so will the final spell.

He can include an "increase save DC" factor such that anything without a serious epic buff can only save on a natural 20, but there will always be that 5% chance.

----------------------------------------------

To the OP, a spell using the Contact, Reveal, Transport, and Slay seeds as described above would have a Spellcraft DC of 98, and be good for one creature of up to 80 HD and 1000 lb on the same plane as the caster. The target would be able to resist with a saving throw (DC 20+ability mod, either Will or Fort as determined when the spell is developed) as well as any SR it posseses.

An additional +12 Spellcraft DC would allow the spell to work across planes.

Raising the HD cap takes +8 Spellcraft DC per 80 additional HD, while raising the weight limit takes +2 Spellcraft DC per additional 50 lb.

Affecting multiple creatures requires an additional +9 Spellcraft DC for each creature past the first. Note that while the HD cap is separate for each creature affected, the weight limit is total for all creatures.

The saving throw DC can be increased at a rate of +2 Spellcraft DC per +1 save DC. The spell can also have a baked in spell penetration bonus, at a rate of +2 Spellcraft DC per +1 caster level.

Ignoring non-epic protections could, at DM (i.e.- your) discretion, be achieved by adding the Ward seed. A blanket bypass of all non-epic spells in this manner would add a whopping +174 Spellcraft DC, while bypassing specific spells would add as well as +[14+2*(total levels of bypassed spells)] DC.


He is also willing to spend a ridiculous amount of time researching the spell.

Maybe I should have a required wizard level for him to become before researching said spell?

In order to develop or cast an epic spell, you have to be able to make a Spellcraft check at the DC determined by the spell's construction (you can take 10 on this check, even in combat). So, given the above numbers, your player's only hope of ever casting the specific spell he wants is if he's willing to have a casting time of multiple days, with a large number of additional casters assisting him, and probably dealing himself a large pile of d6's and/or burning a hefty chunk of XP.

Oh, and he'll need 9000*DC gp worth of materials to develop the spell, taking 0.18*DC days to do so.

[Krobar]

Our games have one rule for epic spells:

Only deities (Divine Rank 1 or higher) are powerful enough to harness the energies sufficient to cast epic spells.

[Talderas]

The Epic Spell Rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm), such as they are, are not all that good. You find a seed that does most of what you want, another that does the rest, and do the maths. If you don't mitigate heavily, then you're not going to be able to cast a spell that's worth a non-epic spell slot. If you do mitigate heavily, there's no real clear place to stop, and you quickly end up with enough permanent summons to transport the entire galaxy to wherever you want. They've got that "DM approval" clause, which is useful, but... blech.

Epic spells are better spent on uber-pimped versions of Bull's Strength and its ilk than things that harm the enemy. I've created 4 epic spells for my epic level illusionist. An epic intelligence buff (restricted by DM request). An epic invisibility spell (to deal with the problem of an overabundance of true seeing and blindsight). An epic level transmutation that converted an approximately 450ft radius sphere of a plane to mimic the planar traits of the shadow plane. The final one was an epic illusion designed to entrap creatures. I called the last one (There Is No Spoon). I never got to use it. I made good use of the shifting planar traits one though.... It would last about 24 hours before it faded. Themewise, the area under its effect would wash out color but I did it mostly for free metamagicing when I was on other planes.....

[IamL]

Heh...one of my fellow DM's warned me against epic buff spells. One of his characters took maximum Spellcraft ranks and formulated a spell called Colossus that was basically a +20 strength for one hour, then -2 strength for 2 hours. But the guy just alternated between Bull's strength and his epic spell, so the group's fighter alternated between 60 strength and 42 strength (he took Epic Strength a lot.)

[Talderas]

Heh...one of my fellow DM's warned me against epic buff spells. One of his characters took maximum Spellcraft ranks and formulated a spell called Colossus that was basically a +20 strength for one hour, then -2 strength for 2 hours. But the guy just alternated between Bull's strength and his epic spell, so the group's fighter alternated between 60 strength and 42 strength (he took Epic Strength a lot.)

I used it primarily for increasing save DCs....

Fortify Seed

Base DC 17 for a +1 enhancement to an attribute. +2 DC for each further +1. Even a modest +24 enhancement to a single attribute is just a 63 DC so you only need +53 on your spell craft check. I wouldn't put it out of the realm of obtainable for a lvl 25 wizard.