Help me build a gnoll tracker

[Mongrel]

So I'm trying to design a backup character in case the one I currently have dies. I want to make a gnoll who excels at tracking, probably starting as a ranger or perhaps fighter/ranger depending on what I need. I'm looking for good builds in general, but in particular I'm looking for good PrCs that could help out with the build. Note that I don't want to make the most omfgwtfbbq broken character ever here (as my racial choice probably suggested). I've never been a charopper, and mostly enjoy making good characters (from a writer's perspective) than ones that can do eleventy zillion damage in one hit. Mostly, I will be content with a character that isn't bad. An average, or perhaps above average character will suffice.

The characters in the game are currently around 4th-5th level, so that's where I will be starting character creation. Because he's going to be a ranger that pretty much means I will do best if I dual wield or specialize in archery (I don't really have much of a preference, the character will probably be able to fight both at range and in melee so I don't much mind which is primary). Unless I'm mistaken, picking gnoll means that I will essentially be 3 levels down (2 racial HD and a +1 LA). This is the biggest problem with using a gnoll, I find, but I like the race so I plan to stick with it. Is there any way to lessen the impact of, in particular, the racial HD? Any way to convert them into class levels or a variant rule that replaces them with something else? My original plan was actually to make the character a druid, but -3 levels of spellcasting is a pretty big hit (plus my current character just started multiclassing as druid due to an in game event).

I've looked into the Bloodhound PrC because flavorwise it seems perfect, but game mechanics wise the class seems pretty lackluster. What are some other paths for a primarily martial tracking specialist that also makes them at least halfway decent in combat? Dual wielding and/or archery based PrCs I'm especially interested in, and if I can somehow get the scent ability somewhere that would be ideal.

[Deaxsa]

a couple of things: first of all, try to see if your DM will let you get Scent as a racial feature, or trade it out for a different racial feature (Like Darkvision or the Nat. Armor or something, after all, you are an anthropomorphic hyena). also, what are your stats looking like? how martial do you want to be? i'd suggest scout, or highland tracker(PrC though) (both Complete adventurer) but i don't know if you want to be a high BAB character. also, scout does NOT get an animal companion which may fit your flavor better

edit: it's highland STALKER, not tracker. my b. page 54

[Mongrel]

Hm, I'll check with the DM on getting scent as a racial feature. As far as stats, I haven't rolled them yet. We do 4d6 drop lowest six times (or possibly seven and drop the lowest of the set, can't remember). If we don't like that set we can reroll, but we must take the rerolled set. Gnolls get great bonuses to physical stats (+4 str +2 con) so I expect that I will at least be good in those, especially since my highest stat will probably go to strength (assuming I'm melee) with next likely going to dex, then depending on what I rolled I'd probably do wis/con, cha, int.

As for "how martial I want to be," I usually play spellcasters, so this is kinda my break from that mold. I wouldn't mind getting some spellcasting (it is pretty much always useful) but I certainly don't want to focus on it.

I've heard of Scout before but have actually never looked at the class, I'll check it and the Highland Tracker out. I don't really care too much if I don't get an animal companion, my choice of ranger was primarily because it got Track for free, though I suppose I could just get level one of Ranger and be done with the class, possibly two levels to get the combat style.

Thanks for the advice btw

[Kuulvheysoon]

If you don't mind a little ToB in your melee, there's a first level stance (Tiger Claw discipline) that grants scent.

Just saying.

[Deaxsa]

If you don't mind a little ToB in your melee, there's a first level stance (Tiger Claw discipline) that grants scent.

Just saying.

ToB? also, is there like, an acronym thread or something? i have to look up over half the acronyms i see, and all of the books use acronyms, too, and there's tons of them.. yea. is there a cheat sheet anywhere?

edit: speaking of ways to get scent, if you get wild shape somehow, there's a feat in Complete Adventurer which lets you use a wild shape to give yourself scent for 1 hour/HD, which is nice because it would stack with your Gnoll RHD (although it may be a bit expensive to get if you weren't going druid in the first place)

[Kuulvheysoon]

ToB? also, is there like, an acronym thread or something? i have to look up over half the acronyms i see, and all of the books use acronyms, too, and there's tons of them.. yea. is there a cheat sheet anywhere?

Most Handbooks, no matter where they are, tend to have a legend describing what each abbreviation means.

If you ever have any questions, don't hesitate to either ask in the thread, or PM me. I'll gladly serve as a reference.

ToB, for instance, means Tome of Battle: the Book of Nine Swords. A single level dip in either Warblade or Swordsage will get you the Hunter's Sense stance - continuous Scent (ex).

[VGLordR2]

ToB? also, is there like, an acronym thread or something? i have to look up over half the acronyms i see, and all of the books use acronyms, too, and there's tons of them.. yea. is there a cheat sheet anywhere?

There is, actually. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18512)

[Deaxsa]

you guys are awesome.:smallbiggrin:

[Keld Denar]

As written, if you have Survival as a skill and the Track feat, Scent doesn't really add anything OTHER than being able to track by scent (which basically only means you can track over hard ground where no trail can exist, and you can track if you can't see).

[Mongrel]

Yeah I know, I wanted scent mainly for the flavor of it not for any particular mechanical benefit (although it would presumably allow me to better track people who didn't leave tracks because they were flying, concealed their tracks, etc, or in the cases you mentioned).

Anyway, in looking over some of the suggestions I think I will be making this character a Ranger/Swordsage for free Track, Martial Magic stuff, and dual wieldy shenanigans (plus that stance that gives me scent, if I can't get it as a racial benefit somehow). As I said I don't yet have stats, but priorities would probably be Str > Dex > Wis > Con > Int > Cha. Any suggestions?

[Deaxsa]

Yeah I know, I wanted scent mainly for the flavor of it not for any particular mechanical benefit (although it would presumably allow me to better track people who didn't leave tracks because they were flying, concealed their tracks, etc, or in the cases you mentioned).

Anyway, in looking over some of the suggestions I think I will be making this character a Ranger/Swordsage for free Track, Martial Magic stuff, and dual wieldy shenanigans (plus that stance that gives me scent, if I can't get it as a racial benefit somehow). As I said I don't yet have stats, but priorities would probably be Str > Dex > Wis > Con > Int > Cha. Any suggestions?

you may want to up con in that order, since you won't be needing wis for spells. i can't speak for swordsage, because i don't know the class, but if you're going to go with two-weapon ranger, you're gonna want the HP, since you can only wear light armor and use your two-weapon feats (at least, until you get the second one, ideally not from ranger)

[Mongrel]

Swordsages get Wis bonus added to AC, and Wis is needed for tracking and spot/listen type skills (which I want my character to be good at). Plus I get a +2 Con from being a gnoll, so I figured I could bump Con under Wis in priority and still have a decent HP pool (plus I should have a nice AC from the high Dex, light armor, Wis to AC, and nat armor bonus). It depends on what stats I roll, but I will probably want at least a 14 Wis if I can help it. Does this seem reasonable?

[Deaxsa]

Swordsages get Wis bonus added to AC, and Wis is needed for tracking and spot/listen type skills (which I want my character to be good at). Plus I get a +2 Con from being a gnoll, so I figured I could bump Con under Wis in priority and still have a decent HP pool (plus I should have a nice AC from the high Dex, light armor, Wis to AC, and nat armor bonus). It depends on what stats I roll, but I will probably want at least a 14 Wis if I can help it. Does this seem reasonable?

yes but you seem to be getting a bit of MAD there. tbh, i'd put Dex much lower on your priorities, because they ONLY thing you need it for is ac, and while you can't use medium armor until you get ITWF, you get your wisdom to AC. so leave dex low, it's covered by other things. as long as it's in the 10-12 range i think you'll be fine on Dex. I'd go Str>Con>Wis>Dex>Int>Cha from what you're telling me. You'll hit like a truck (what with that racial Str Mod) and have ok ac, good ac at level 6(where you will get ITWF and laugh at the ranger's light armor requirement), and since you are focusing on con, you'll also have good hitpoints, which you will need as a melee.

edit: see if you can talk to your DM and turn that 2 Racial HD into +1 LA or something, Racial HD really hurts class progressions(ESPECIALLY SINCE YOUR CLASSES GET SO MANY SKILLS!!! you'll lose 20 skillpoints this way, and while you may not be a skillmonkey, if you can get those skillpoints, get them! more skills never hurt anybody). additionally, there are variant rules where you pay xp every 3 levels to lose portions of LA, but i can't remember where i read it. it hurts in the short run, but is GREAT in the long run.

edit2: i might even go Str>wis>con for the ac and focus on will saves, since you already get +2 con and high fort saves, and will saves may be nice, depending on what things you are fighting.

edit3: ah, can't add Wis if you are wearing medium armor. that hurts. still though, i'd let dex go further down in the list, so you don't have to worry so much about MAD (you only have to worry about THREE stats now, not 4)

[Mongrel]

Hm, you make a good point. Dex was originally high on the list simply so he could hit with a bow if need be, but in reality he's likely to be in melee combat a good 90+% of the time, so a high Dex is probably unnecessary.

I am very interested in finding ways to trade or buy off racial HD (and to a lesser extent LA), because they are an enormous pain...does anyone know what book the options Deaxsa mentions are in? Or any other way to get rid of racial HD/LA (variant rules for monster characters, ways to buy them off, etc.)?

[Vaz]

A Bloodhound Prestige Class gets scent as a class feature, Tracking help, the Mark ability (helps with non-combat social situations when trying to find out the next lead), and fast movement up to +30ft (find a mark with 60ft+Movement and just have them as a Mark), you get Con to Will saves against those caused by a Mark's spells, you can deal 2pts of Strength Damage to a mark with an attack, quite useful against casters, Permanent See Invisibility, and Freedom of Movement for a number of rounds equal to Wisdom.

Obviously, a Druid fits in well here, but Swordsages, Clerics, and even Archivists fit in decently; Dark Knowledge for attack boosts fits thematically.

Bonus points for making wear a monkey suit watching the discovery channel.

[Deaxsa]

Hm, you make a good point. Dex was originally high on the list simply so he could hit with a bow if need be, but in reality he's likely to be in melee combat a good 90+% of the time, so a high Dex is probably unnecessary.

I am very interested in finding ways to trade or buy off racial HD (and to a lesser extent LA), because they are an enormous pain...does anyone know what book the options Deaxsa mentions are in? Or any other way to get rid of racial HD/LA (variant rules for monster characters, ways to buy them off, etc.)?

first of all, you could always talk to your dm. just explain things to him, be like, 'this is what i want to be, this is what is stopping me, and this is why removing what is stopping me won't be an issue or overpowered.' he may say no, but then again, he may try to work with you on it. (the RHD into LA was me talking about this specific thing, it's not in any book i've read) as far as the 'buying off level advancement' goes, i'll keep looking, talk to your dm about that too, i know i saw it somewhere, i'm almost positive it's a variant rule, and i'll post the source if i do find it.

[Kuulvheysoon]

first of all, you could always talk to your dm. just explain things to him, be like, 'this is what i want to be, this is what is stopping me, and this is why removing what is stopping me won't be an issue or overpowered.' he may say no, but then again, he may try to work with you on it. (the RHD into LA was me talking about this specific thing, it's not in any book i've read) as far as the 'buying off level advancement' goes, i'll keep looking, talk to your dm about that too, i know i saw it somewhere, i'm almost positive it's a variant rule, and i'll post the source if i do find it.

LA buyoff is a variant rule presented in Unearthed Arcana (or, you know, right here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)).

[Mongrel]

Okay, so right now it's looking like this character will be a level 2 Ranger, then progress as a Swordsage for the rest of his advancement (wasn't too impressed with most of the ToB PrCs). The problem I'm seeing is that Swordsage doesn't have Survival as a class skill. This means my tracking ability will suffer.

Are there any good TWF PrCs, especially ones with Survival as a class skill? Or, alternatively, is there any way to get Survival as a class skill for the Swordsage? I like the Swordsage class, and with all "casters" it seems to be best to get as many levels in it as you can (though to a lesser extent here since most of the maneuvers/stances don't seem to care what your "caster level" is), but I don't think I'd really suffer too much from doing something like Ranger 2 (for Track and TWF style), Swordsage 2 (for Wis to AC bonus and some maneuvers plus a stance), then a dual wielding PrC for some additional dual wield power (or possibly even more levels of Ranger for more TWF ability and Survival as a class skill? What's best here?)

Btw, thanks for the LA buyoff rules there Kuulvheysoon, exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. Now if only I could do that to the real culprit: the racial HD...

Edit: so I did some poking around myself for PrCs, and I really like the Tempest from Complete Adventurer. Unfortunately, it doesn't have Survival as a class skill either =(. Is there any way to add a skill to your class skill list? And if so, is it added to the skill list of a particular class, or is it just considered a class skill for your character no matter what class they take? Or perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself; does this even exist somewhere in the rules?

[Deaxsa]

Okay, so right now it's looking like this character will be a level 2 Ranger, then progress as a Swordsage for the rest of his advancement (wasn't too impressed with most of the ToB PrCs). The problem I'm seeing is that Swordsage doesn't have Survival as a class skill. This means my tracking ability will suffer.

Are there any good TWF PrCs, especially ones with Survival as a class skill? Or, alternatively, is there any way to get Survival as a class skill for the Swordsage? I like the Swordsage class, and with all "casters" it seems to be best to get as many levels in it as you can (though to a lesser extent here since most of the maneuvers/stances don't seem to care what your "caster level" is), but I don't think I'd really suffer too much from doing something like Ranger 2 (for Track and TWF style), Swordsage 2 (for Wis to AC bonus and some maneuvers plus a stance), then a dual wielding PrC for some additional dual wield power (or possibly even more levels of Ranger for more TWF ability and Survival as a class skill? What's best here?)

Btw, thanks for the LA buyoff rules there Kuulvheysoon, exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. Now if only I could do that to the real culprit: the racial HD...

Edit: so I did some poking around myself for PrCs, and I really like the Tempest from Complete Adventurer. Unfortunately, it doesn't have Survival as a class skill either =(. Is there any way to add a skill to your class skill list? And if so, is it added to the skill list of a particular class, or is it just considered a class skill for your character no matter what class they take? Or perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself; does this even exist somewhere in the rules?

A whole lot of these things could be solved by talking to your DM.

Can't help you with the skill, however, i'd rule that your character can continue to train himself to become a better tracker once he's got the basics down if i were your DM. talk to him/her.

Dont know about good ToB PrCs, but i do know that if you want to dual-wield (and hurt a lot while doing it), and think tempest is cool, look at Dancing Dervish(or something similar, can't quite remember the name). i'm serious. these guys kick some major butt, and get untyped bonuses all over the place. they are in Complete Warrior, and you need most of the dodge feats as well as dance ranks, but trust me; these guys are amazing. check them out.

[mattie_p]

Is there any way to add a skill to your class skill list? And if so, is it added to the skill list of a particular class, or is it just considered a class skill for your character no matter what class they take? Or perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself; does this even exist somewhere in the rules?

In this case, you can. Check the Apprentice (woodsman) feat from DMG II (also adds know: nature). Don't have the book in front of me, but check the wording of the feat.

Shamelessly borrowed from this thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6832).

[Mongrel]

Yes, I know that I could potentially work out some rules bending to make the character work with my DM, but since this is a backup character that may not even see play I figured I'd find a way to make him work by RAW first, then see if I can convince the DM to tweak some things here and there to make him more effective.

I did see the Dervish class when I was scanning PrCs, and it indeed does look very powerful. Unfortunately, it has a very heavy thematic focus of "dance." If this were just a fluff thing I wouldn't mind too much as you can always just refluff, but it actually goes so far as not only requiring some ranks in Perform(Dance) to get into the class itself, but actually using Perform(Dance) skill checks for some of its abilities. This is a character that simply would not know how to dance, and for that reason I am not interested in the Dervish for him. (Can you imagine a big burly gnoll hunter...dancing?) The Tempest seems to have everything I need in terms of TWF power, so I'm much more content with picking that up, even if it is perhaps a little worse in terms of game mechanics (which is debatable I assume).

Thank you for that feat Mattie, it's perfect! Especially since the backstory I had been dreaming up for the character was that he worked for the same sect of druids that my current character has recently gotten involved in, so it would make perfect sense for him to have a mentor of some sort in the organization.

Here's the character plotted out so far:

Level 1: Ranger: Favored Enemy: Humanoid(Human), Track, Wild Empathy, Feat: Dodge, Gnoll Feat: Mobility
Level 2: Ranger: TWF Combat Style
Level 3: Swordsage: Quick to Act +1, Discipline Focus: Desert Wind (Weapon Focus), Feat: Apprentice (Woodsman)
Level 4: Swordsage: AC Bonus
Level 5: Swordsage
Level 6: Swordsage: Discipline Focus (Insightful Strike), Feat: Spring Attack
Level 7: Fighter: Fighter feat: Improved TWF
Level 8+: Tempest

This build qualifies for Tempest by level 7 (allowing me to take it at 8, though remember that with my racial HD and LA this is effectively level 10/11), but it has one major flaw: it requires a Dex of 17 for Improved TWF =(. This means that I would likely need to drastically alter my ability score priorities, perhaps going as far as making Dex my #1, which really isn't needed with the Swordsage AC bonus ability, plus I'd much rather have a higher Wis with this character.

Now, I can get Improved TWF for free at level 6 of Ranger regardless of my Dex score which, unless I roll really well, will probably be what I want to do. It misses out on Swordsage advancement, but I feel like that's a hit I can take. Here's what that build looks like:

Level 1: Ranger: Favored Enemy: Humanoid(Human), Track, Wild Empathy, Feat: Dodge, Gnoll Feat: Mobility
Level 2: Ranger: TWF Combat Style
Level 3: Swordsage: Quick to Act +1, Discipline Focus: Desert Wind (Weapon Focus), Feat: (open)
Level 4: Swordsage: AC Bonus
Level 5: Ranger: Endurance
Level 6: Ranger: Animal Companion, spellcasting, Feat: Spring Attack
Level 7: Ranger: Second Favored Enemy
Level 8: Ranger: Improved Combat Style (Improved TWF)
Level 9+: Tempest

Using this build puts off Tempest for one level, but it progresses enough in ranger to get (likely) all the ranks in Survival I will really need, so the apprentice feat is probably not needed freeing up a feat slot. I'm partial to the second build for a few reasons. First, I won't need a 17 Dex (something that is sort of useless for this character in the grand scheme of things). Second, it seems like Swordsage doesn't fit quite so perfectly for this character at higher levels. The main problem I'm having is that the martial discipline that is the best fit for the character (Tiger Claw, which is the only one to get TWF powers and has a "bestial" flavor perfect for a gnoll) has absolutely awful weapon choices. The only one that I could even use for TWF without spending a weapon proficiency feat (on an inferior weapon no less) is the handaxe, which is certainly not the best weapon. No idea why the TWF martial discipline doesn't have any good TWF weapons. In any case, the discipline I chose for the character was Desert Wind solely because I wanted him to use a scimitar and light mace, both weapons on the Desert Wind list (which means I get +1 to hit with them from that Discipline Focus special ability). While Desert Wind has a nice weapon selection, it also has martial powers that I don't really like. Not that they're bad, but they don't seem martial at all. Throwing fire everywhere is something a caster does. I wanted this character to have a martial feel, so I probably would have chosen most/all of my powers from the Tiger Claw discipline, meaning that the Insightful Strike class ability would probably be next to useless (unless I retrained to Tiger Claw, in which case I wouldn't get that +1 bonus to hit anymore). It's possible I'd be able to convince my DM to allow another weapon or two onto the Tiger Claw list, but by RAW I would essentially be sacrificing a decent class ability.

Anyway, I'm curious as to which build you guys like best? I'm curious, too, about potential feats I could include in the open feat slot in the second build. Any suggestions? Suggestions on Maneuvers and possibly Stances are welcome as well.

[Seharvepernfan]

Barbarian, Druid, Ranger, and Scout are your general "tracker" classes, druid being the best at it by a good margin. Druid might be a good one-level dip, both for nature sense (+2 know nature and survival) and an animal companion (like a wolf or riding dog, who can track by scent and learn a trick to use aid another to you when tracking).

Probably the best simple "tracker" build for low levels is Ranger 1/Druid 1/Barbarian 1, as this gets you Track, Nature Sense, Animal Companion, and Fast Movement (and therefore, faster tracking), while giving you max ranks in survival. Actually, now that I think about it, a swordsage can get scent at first level as a stance.

As someone said, your DM may allow you to gain scent, one way or another, he also might let you add survival to the swordsage class list.

Tempest is generally not worth it, despite being a cool class. See if your DM will let you take it while still progressing in ranger spellcasting.

In that case, Scout 4/Ranger 11/Tempest 5 with swift hunter would be a pretty ideal build.

Regardless, just one level each of druid, barbarian, and swordsage would all be pretty helpful, for various reasons.

[Kuulvheysoon]

If you're still looking for build finalization, might I suggest looking at the Bloodclaw Master PrC from the Book of Nine Swords? Focuses on Tiger Claw maneuvers and double weilding.