PF RHoD Question: What if my players want to make a stand at Vraath Keep?

[Rogue Shadows]

As in, my players are planning on destroying the bridge at Skull Gorge, then going to Drellin's Ferry, getting volunteers, and holding off the Red Hand horde from Vraath Keep, reasoning that it's easier to defend then the town.

While...technically true, I don't think they quite grasp how big the Red Hand of Doom is, despite me pointing out that the Red Hand is planning on it being large enough to take Brindol and Dennovar, nevermind piddly little towns like Drellin's Ferry.

Um. What do I do? Indulge their suicide, or...?

Oh, for the record, the PCs are all level 6, this is Pathfinder, and they consist of:
- Monk
- Paladin
- Samurai
- Bard
- Wizard (evoker).

[Coidzor]

Well, there's having an NPC with a head on their shoulders suggest actually scouting out what the horde looks like before making a stand in a ruined keep with damaged walls when the town doesn't have the manpower to supply an adequate defense force for the keep even if it was in good condition, much less the ability to afford to spare the men.

If they have a guide or made nice with Captain Soranna, said individuals could insist upon scouting out the horde before making the decision to destroy the bridge, and if they actually lay eyes on the horde, they might decide that rallying the Vale and disrupting its auxiliary forces and alliances is a better idea than throwing their lives away. Even the mayor would have made a big show about assessing the threat before destroying infrastructure if they reveal their plans to anyone in Drellin's Ferry.

Also, with the keep that small, the PCs could be kept bottled up by a relatively small siege force until they were starved out/gave up and sallied out, even the most bumpkinish of town guards would be able to realize this, and Captain Soranna is no bumpkin or fool as I recall, even if she does have an unfortunate selection of class levels.

I can't recall any particular post, but I believe this potential problem was discussed in the 3.5 Red Hand of Doom Handbook thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171284)

[ksbsnowowl]

The Massacre at Drellin's Ferry encounter discusses how to deal with PC's who want to make a stand there and refuse to give up. One of the suggestions is to let them do it, die, and make up new characters who are sent from Brindol or some such.

I say let them follow through with their plan if they won't listen to a few instances of NPC advice to the contrary. The Horde will surround them, send a few waves at them, and likely kill them. At the very least, the Horde assumes Koth is dead, just continues on to Drellin's Ferry (destroying it), while leaving a small contingent behind to kill the PC's. Even if the PC's live, they will have the horde between them and Drellin's Ferry, so the PC's will not be able to help at DF.

Make their decisions matter. If they make stupid decisions, they reap the consequences.

[subject42]

Start a wave of refugees from outlying farms and hamlets. Send sick, wounded, and exhausted villages, shellshocked with fear to them. Send them screaming and wailing about their lost loved ones, and trying no to break down over the fact that they can't outrun the certain death that tails behind them.

[Barlen]

You could rule that the hordes leaders send a detachment to deal with them and order the bulk of the horde to destroy Drellin's ferry. Give them a good long fight with many waves. If successful they find themselves on the backside of the horde with Drellin's ferry burned to the ground and most of the population dead. Depending on how gory you want to get you could have them find the towns people impaled, crucified, or just hanging.

They likely will not be able to stop the horde from destroying Bristol.

[Eugenides]

I'm going to go with the people that are saying go with it. Yes, it throws a monkey wrench in what you want, but remember, you're telling a story here. The characters should have an impact with their choices.

You may not have to kill them, but personally, the story is waaay cooler if they die and then re-roll characters. It gives them a grasp of scope of what they're involved in.

[Coidzor]

The only real problem with letting them die is that you're going to have to write off one or more of the victory point gaining side-arcs simply because of the time they lose by staying around until they get to Drellin's Ferry even with the bridge destroyed(though I suppose you could set the new characters somewhere before the actual fall of Drellin's Ferry but after the Horde has started on the alternate path, decide what level to let them have their new characters at, and figuring out how they're going to get the info to do anything other than flail about or metagame from what they found out from Koth's stash... Though I suppose that if they let Drellin's Ferry know about any of that, then someone would be smart enough to at least send word to Brindol...

So it's probably going to involve at least some work, but that handbook has some suggestions on that as I recall, and there's only so much you can do to ask them if they're truly sure of their course of action.

Though, I don't think it would be too bad form to let them know that they should figure out something about backup characters.

[Rogue Shadows]

Oh, one other point of interest - Koth is alive. The RHoD book said that if the party assaults Vraath keep, finds itself over its head, leaves, returns, assaults again, and leaves a second time, that Koth would flee rather than try to hold the Keep. Karkilan is also alive.

So the Skull Gorge Bridge folk almost certainly know that the PCs are coming. I don't doubt that my PCs can take it - their difficulty in assaulting the keep stemmed primarily from the fact that they split the party with the bard wandering off on his own and running into a couple of the Goblin worg riders, which I had re-statted as 3rd-level Cavaliers with Wolf mounts.

Bard survived, and it's not a mistake they'll be making again. There's nothing at the bridge that they can't handle except, curiously enough, the bridge itself; I'm not certain that they can destroy it, but we'll see.

Anyway, point being that Koth is alive and amongst the Horde, and probably won't be at the bridge.

[sombrastewart]

Someone might need to realize that standing on the walls of a keep to fight off an encroaching force is going to do jack squat when a dragon does a strafing run with a breath weapon. Repeat.

[KillianHawkeye]

Also, the keep is pretty terrible for defending against an attack. There are big holes in the walls and the place is half falling down.

[Starbuck_II]

If the PCs befriended the Giant, you could have him arrive with Giant helpers to help in the defense (they normally just help in Bristol, but if the players are fighting here, then they could use the help, even though it won't be much versus the whole horde).

[Rogue Shadows]

Also, the keep is pretty terrible for defending against an attack. There are big holes in the walls and the place is half falling down.

I pointed this out to my players. They're response was "it's better than the town."

Their words, not mine...