Buffing Lower Tiers for my Campaign [Pathfinder]

[Abombom]

Hi! I'm thinking of running a Pathfinder game for a group of new players and I wanted to address giving the lower tiers some Oomph! without gestalting. I still want Quadratic Wizards, Linear Fighters to be in effect, just severely diminished (Tier 4-6 should be whooping Tier 1-3 in the earlier levels, assuming 15 minute adventure days aren't taken).

I was wondering if the benefits provided for lower tiers, given these constraints, are adequate. Or did I go overboard?

LEADERSHIP BANNED
NO PSIONICS
CORE RACES ONLY
NO MULTI-CLASSING
Tier 1: Cleric, Druid, Witch, Wizard.

Tier 2: Oracle, Sorceror, Summoner.

Tier 3: Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Ninja, Magus, Rogue, Paladin

Tier 4: Barbarian, Cavalier, (Hungry Ghost) Monk, Ranger, Samurai,

Adept

Tier 5: Fighter, Gunslinger, Monk.

Tier 6: Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner, Expert

Tier1:
Point buy 18
No access to prestige classes.

Tier2:
Point buy 24

Tier3:
Point buy 28
Gets +2 attribute instead of +1 at levels 4,8,12,16,20.
Extra feat at 4,8,12,16,20

Tier4
Point buy 32
Gets +2 attribute instead of +1 at levels 4,8,12,16,20.
Extra feat at 4,8,12,16,20
-At level 5 gains bonus feat: Skill Focus (EX). This stacks with the regular Skill Focus feat.
-At level 10, select one Cleric domain. You gain access to this domain's powers. Use your class level in place of cleric level. Furthermore, any power which states it requires a standard action uses a 'swift' action instead. 1st-level power is Useable 4 times per day. Second power is usable 2 times per day.

Tier5:
Point buy 38
Gets +3 attribute instead of +1 at levels 4,8,12,16,20.
Extra feat at 4,8,12,16,20
-At level 1 starts off with bonus feat: Additional Traits.
-At level 5 gains bonus feat: Skill Focus (EX). This stacks with the regular Skill Focus feat.
-At level 10, select one Cleric domain. You gain access to this domain's powers. Use your class level in place of cleric level. Furthermore, any power which states it requires a standard action uses a 'swift' action instead. 1st-level power is Useable 4 times per day. Second power is usable 2 times per day.

Tier 6:
Point Buy 44
Gets +3 attribute instead of +1 at levels 4,8,12,16,20.
Extra feat at 4,8,12,16,20
-At level 1, select an Oracle Mystery. You may choose 1 Revelation from this Mystery. For purposes of Oracle level, use your regular level instead.
At level 5 gains bonus feat: Skill Focus (EX). This stacks with the regular Skill Focus feat.
-At level 10, select one Cleric domain. You gain access to this domain's powers. Use your class level in place of cleric level. Furthermore, any power which states it requires a standard action uses a 'swift' action instead. 1st-level power is Useable 4 times per day. Second power is usable 2 times per day.
-Gets 1 extra hero point whenever hero points are dealt out or replenished.

1st, old attempt at balance:
LEADERSHIP BANNED
NO PSIONICS
CORE RACES ONLY
NO MULTI-CLASSING
NO PRESTIGE CLASSES

AVAILABLE CLASSES AND TIER LIST
Tier 1: Cleric, Druid, Witch, Wizard.

Tier 2: Oracle, Sorceror, Summoner.

Tier 3: Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Ninja, Magus, Rogue

Tier 4: Barbarian, Cavalier, (Hungry Ghost) Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Samurai, Adept

Tier 5: Fighter, Gunslinger, Monk.

Tier 6: Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner, Expert

balance attempts:

Tier1:
Point buy 18

Tier2:
Point buy 22

Tier3:
Point buy 26
Extra feat at 4,8,12,16,20

Tier4
Point buy 30
Gets a feat every level*

Tier5:
Point buy 35
Gets a feat every level*
At level 1 starts off with bonus feat: Additional Traits.
At level 5 gains bonus feat: Skill Focus.

Tier 6:
Point Buy 40
Gets a feat every level*
At level 1, select an Oracle Mystery. You may choose 1 Revelation from this Mystery.
At level 5 gains bonus feat: Skill Focus.
Gets 1 extra hero point whenever hero points are dealt out or replenished.

*NOT in addition to the normal odd-leveled feat-gain progression.

[meemaas]

Just my two cents. But if feats could bring a class up a tier, i think the fighter wouldn't be tier 5 in the first place. A level 20 fighter with 30 feats still isn't gonna be able to keep up with a wizard, no matter how powerful the feats are, and a level 1 wizard can still end an encounter with a well placed color spray, where a fighter is still only capable of "i hit it". I know there's a lot more than just the fighter vs. the wizard, but the end result is i don't think your attempts would be enough to even out the tiers.

The classes tend to be evenly matched around the lower levels, due to casters having a very limited number of spells to cast and all, so i think what you should be looking towards is giving lower tiers is something akin to...i think Vow of Poverty, but without the poverty requirements. Give them free range to use their money on items with useful effects, rather than needing to spend them on necessary items to keep up with monsters without becoming just another target.

I specifically suggest this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428), tweaked as necessary for each of the tiers. It covers most of the things that a lower tier character needs to blow their cash on, so they can use theirs on things that'll make them more effective in situations other than their specialties.

[Lans]

Just my two cents. But if feats could bring a class up a tier, i think the fighter wouldn't be tier 5 in the first place. A level 20 fighter with 30 feats still isn't gonna be able to keep up with a wizard, no matter how powerful the feats are, and a level 1 wizard can still end an encounter with a well placed color spray, where a fighter is still only capable of "i hit it". I know there's a lot more than just the fighter vs. the wizard, but the end result is i don't think your attempts would be enough to even out the tiers.



If feats couldn't bring a class up a tier, the fighter would be the same tier as a warrior.

The extra feats might not make it comparable to a wizard, but it could make it on par with a barbarian, or warblade.

Also unrestricted feats are better than the fighter bonus feats, as it lets you take things like the devotion feats, wild cohort, or shape soulmeld

[meemaas]

Thing is, we're talking about Pathfinder. There is no such thing as Wild Cohort, Shape Soulmeld, or Devotion feats.

The Fighter in Pathfinder is higher tier than the Warrior because he has options. Yes, feats are part of that, but the pathfinder fighter has a massive array of archetypes to help him specialize in ways the warrior never could. Heck, take the feats away from the fighter, and he would still outclass the Warrior with his class features alone.

3.5 Fighter, yes, feats made a difference, but in 3.5, the feats were more powerful, and the fighter still had some alternate class features to make him useful too. I mean, Zhentarim (sp?) fighter was a tier above the regular one.

[Abombom]

Hm, you are right. The feats they have access to may raise a class half-a-tier or so, but tier 4-6 will never really break into 1-3 due to lack of options. I think the trick may be in creating a list of cool powers they get access to at certain mid and high-levels. That modified Vow of Poverty did exactly that, and I thought it was pretty cool.

I could make a custom pool of powers gained from levels 10-20 or so, but I am not very familiar with D&D 3.X. I think a good place to start would be looking at the Oracle Mysteries, Cleric domains, and the million weird options presented to the non-Paizo Godling class presented in the SRD.

I think the trick may also be to give these powers an incredible action economy by letting them be free, swift, or immediate options. So in a sense, a tier 4-6 class will get access to one or a small few of the neat tricks, Suck-or-Saves, Game-Changers that a Tier 1-3 has access to, but it will be able to do it in a much better fashion. This is kind of the point of prestige classes I imagine, but they don't do enough and are usually lacking in the action economy side of things.

For now, I am mostly differentiating in my head between tier 1-3 and tier 4-6. Tier 1-3 consists of the Gods of Options and their weaker Jack of All Trade Bretheren, while I think tier 4-6 I want to be Hyper-Specialized Murderhobos.

I have edited the original post with a provisionary idea of the kind of stuff I want to add and left the old balance ideas.


Here is the kind of thing I want to adopt at say, a 10/15/20 progression or a 8/12/16/20 progression. It gives both action economy and some buff:
-At level 10, select one Cleric domain. You gain access to this domain's powers. Use your class level in place of cleric level. Furthermore, any power which states it requires a standard action uses a 'swift' action instead. 1st-level power is Usable 4 times per day. Second power is usable 2 times per day.