need help gestalt build.....

[morkendi]

First time with this. We have 3 players. We are going to rotate dm. The neet thing. We are going to start with a big blank map and let the world build itself. Start at a town. If we hear orcs are 6 days travel across the river, we draw in the river, and it now becomes permanent. The dm's build off what was left in previous game.

We did stats as 12 + 1d6. We are starting level 1. We have a cleric/ninja and a cleric/monk. Originally I was giong rogue/wizard, but with what they chose, I may change my mind. Now thinking wizard/bard maybe?

[Ernir]

Further information on what kind of a character you wish to play is necessary here.

What kind of problems do you foresee your character being excellent at solving? What are its weaknesses? What are the cornerstones of its personality and backstory?

[ksbsnowowl]

I am DM'ing a Gestalt game that has grown from 1st level to now being on the cusp of 13th level.

The Wizard//Rogue has been alright in his effectiveness, but by far the most effective character has been the Druid//Sorcerer. At 8th level he started wildshaping into a pouncing tiger, and at 9th picked up Arcane Strike to deal TONS of damage on a charge.

You could also go Druid//Wizard, and you would actually be a bit more effective by virtue of having more skill points, and you could really afford to specialize (or maybe even go Focused Specialist - Comp Mage).

Either way, I think it would benefit your party to have a full-fledged arcanist in your ranks.

As to the world-building, another route you could go, that would be somewhat in the same vein, but a little more solidified at the beginning, is use Dawn of Worlds to build your world and its history.

http://www.clanwebsite.org/games/games.html

I've not yet used this, but I look forward to doing so for a game at some time in the future.

[Zman]

How about Paladin/Sorcerer? Barbarian/Sorcerer?

[DMVerdandi]

First time with this. We have 3 players. We are going to rotate dm. The neet thing. We are going to start with a big blank map and let the world build itself. Start at a town. If we hear orcs are 6 days travel across the river, we draw in the river, and it now becomes permanent. The dm's build off what was left in previous game.

We did stats as 12 + 1d6. We are starting level 1. We have a cleric/ninja and a cleric/monk. Originally I was giong rogue/wizard, but with what they chose, I may change my mind. Now thinking wizard/bard maybe?

Well, to be honest, wizard bard is a little meh. There isn't really any synergy between the wizard and bard. It is so driven by charisma that it would essentially be dividing up the necessary scores to win.
Now Beguiler/Wizard would kick some ass, and depending on how you would play the game, Warblade//Wizard would kick some monkey-but, and even better, STP Erudite/Warblade.

[morkendi]

we all agreed on elves, though how an elf became a ninja, I dont know. The Idea is that all the characters will come from the same place and move foward from there. I want full arcane on one side. Other side was going to be rogue/swashbuckler dairing outlaw thing. Now I am thinking bard as it is one base class I never played. I don't know what a ninja does, but I asume it is a sneak which would make my thief side unessisary. Warrior is boring as you can summon a meat shield.

stats are 18,18,17,15,15,13 as we did 12+1d6 each score

[ksbsnowowl]

How about Paladin/Sorcerer? Barbarian/Sorcerer?

I also have a Barbarian//Beguiler in my game. It took him a while to find his niche, but his ability to help the party sneak around (sphere of invis + silence) has gotten them past a lot of potential trouble and given them the jump on their opponents several times.

The ability to cast in armor was a big help to him, especially early on.

Adding to DMV's Wizard-pairing list, Wizard//Archivist is pretty decent, though relatively low on HP's and BAB.

[onemorelurker]

Wizard//Incarnate might be up your alley, assuming you're allowed to use incarnum. Incarnates make good skill monkeys if you build them right, and can fill pretty much any roll in a pinch. Plus, most of their abilities are passive, which is always nice for one side of a gestalt.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wizard//Factotum, you can find Factotum in Dungeonscape, and be sure to take Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) a bunch (3+ times) if you want to use those abilities often.

I'd go specialist Conjurer, get the Abrupt Jaunt ACF from PH2, use Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) to get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll, and get either the Spontaneous Divination or Domain Power ACF from CC at 5th. Google-up some Batman Wizard guides.

[dspeyer]

No arcane and no real frontline fighter. Two that are hard to combine because of ASF.

I suggest psion//warblade. You can manifest fine in heavy armor. You'll even have decent skills.

[Zman]

No arcane and no real frontline fighter. Two that are hard to combine because of ASF.

I suggest psion//warblade. You can manifest fine in heavy armor. You'll even have decent skills.

Just need 8 levels of Fighter with the Armored Mage ACF. Spend one Fighter Bonus Feat on Medium Armor Proficiency or Pick up Medium Armor Proficiency by multiclassing and one normal feat on Battle Caster an you are casting in Mithril Full Plate with no ACF. Its a solid start for a Gish with Full Caster on the otherside.

[Kazyan]

Just need 8 levels of Fighter with the Armored Mage ACF. Spend one Fighter Bonus Feat on Medium Armor Proficiency or Pick up Medium Armor Proficiency by multiclassing and one normal feat on Battle Caster an you are casting in Mithril Full Plate with no ACF. Its a solid start for a Gish with Full Caster on the otherside.

Alternative method:
Take the Snowcasting feat.
Wear Full Plate made of Blue Ice.
Laugh.

[Sayren-Hai]

In all honesty from the looks of it a Druid could be what's needed.

Can wildshape into a big tanky character such as a bear at level 5+
Can summon natures allys to be the fighters.
Can cure, deal damaging spells and much more. You'll also have access to an animal companion. Being a druid would bring a LOT to a small player game in my honest opinion.

[Vaz]

Warblade/Spell to Power Erudite?

[Person_Man]

As with any gestalt build, I would suggest trying to accumulate a lot of passive, "always on" benefits. Wildshape, soulmelds, vestiges, stances, buff spells with long durations, etc. So Druid, Wildshape Ranger, Totemist, Incarnate, Binder, ToB, Cleric, Archivist, Psychic Warrior, etc.

On the flip side, I would avoid accumulating more then one set of abilities which require activation (melee attacks, Sneak Attack, maneuvers, blasty spells, etc) or a trigger unless unless there is a clear synergy.

For example, Wizard//Rogue isn't such a great combination, because most of the time the Wizard side of your build is just going to use spells which have no synergy with any of your other abilities. Which means that the Rogue side of your build (Sneak Attack, Skills) is basically "wasted" in most encounters. (Although I guess you could be a Wizard//Rogue who specializes in Ray spells, but that's generally one of the weakest Wizard options available). Similarly, a Wizard//Bard might have a 100 different spells and Music effects, but will generally only use one at a time.

[ksbsnowowl]

No arcane and no real frontline fighter. Two that are hard to combine because of ASF.

This and what Person Man said are why I will repeat my suggestion of Druid//Wizard.

Let's look at a typical 8th level wildshape form: the Dire Lion.
AC of 15 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), but you add +4 from Mage Armor, +3 natural armor from barkskin, and if combat ensues, you can throw up Shield for another +4. Before adding any stat-boosters into the mix, your AC just went up to 26. Cat's Grace would up that if you needed, plus you get to add on things like Blur, Mirror Image, and Displacement, making it damn near impossible to hit you (my Barb//Beguiler is impossible to hit due to those spells). You can increase these in other ways later on (Greater Mage Armor, etc); my Druid//Sorcerer 12 often has an AC well above 30.

Plus, you add in an animal companion, that is a better fighter than a fighter, at least early on, and it can remain so if you choose the right ones. Having the extra fighter in your small party will be a big benefit.

I concur with going Conjurer and getting the Abrupt Jaunt ACF. Fantastic little trick, that.

For Low-level play, rely on Mage Armor and Shillelagh for your combat buffs. Maybe stick to buffs for the Mage side early on, so you can use a shield in combat. Cast at the start before going into the dungeon, then shield up and rely on your druid spells while you've got your shield.

As always, though, keep in mind using other battlefield control stuff if getting in the front line is too risky. That's where wizard will really shine.

[Deaxsa]

whatever you do, remember that as a gestalt, you don't get extra actions. so whatever you decide to combine, the action efficiency needs to be high, which ties on to what Person Man was saying about passive benefits. MAD (despite having those scores) will still probably be an issue, because you can only increase one or two scores reasonably, so pick things that synergize in terms of MAD (like druid/anything nonphysical). finally, in terms of gameplay, be on top of things if you pick two spellcasting classes. i once gestalted wizard/druid who went Theurge, and it was terrible. i had so many spells, and it was just a pain to play. so whatever you do, KNOW THE RULES. ALL THE RULES(specifically with regards to spellcasting, where rules can change on a dime).

[ksbsnowowl]

i once gestalted wizard/druid who went Theurge, and it was terrible. i had so many spells, and it was just a pain to play. This is why I typically recommend going Prepared Caster//Spontaneous Caster if someone wants to play a dual caster. It just makes your life easier. Though Wizard is technically still stronger than Sorcerer, it may just be too much of a PITA to play.

If you do go Druid//Arcane, the feat Arcane Strike (CW) becomes a good "passive" way to utilize your arcane spell slots while wild shaped.

There are typically two ways to build a gestalt character:
1) Pick a "main" class, then pick a secondary class that covers your weaknesses in the main class.
2) Pick two classes that synergize well together.

I've found option 2 to be the most effective.

For example, scout is a great counter-part to a wildshaping druid. Turn into a tiger to gain pounce, then apply skirmish to all 5 attacks on your charge. Synergy.

My Barbarian//Beguiler player went for option 1, and he's always debating whether to cast or rage, because he can't do both at the same time. However, Arcane Strike has given him a method to use his spells while raging, so there might be ways to make option 1 work somewhat like option 2, but it's less efficient.

There's been good advice in this thread.

[Deaxsa]

For example, scout is a great counter-part to a wildshaping druid. Turn into a tiger to gain pounce, then apply skirmish to all 5 attacks on your charge. Synergy.


i think this would actually be a pretty good suggestion for your current goals, because while you are missing arcane spellcasting with this, it's loads of fun anyways, and you're still a bunch of gestalts.

[ksbsnowowl]

i think this would actually be a pretty good suggestion for your current goals, because while you are missing arcane spellcasting with this, it's loads of fun anyways, and you're still a bunch of gestalts.

He can actually pull this off with a Druid//Arcane caster via Arcane Strike. Arcane Strike applies to all your natural weapons. When my Druid//Sorcerer needs to bring the pain, he drops a 5th level spell, charges something for seven attacks (thanks to Girallon's Blessing), each at +5 to attack and +5d4 to damage. With Invisibility Sphere and Silence from the Beguiler, they sneak in and he slaughters something in the first round.

Either way is effective. I've seen both in play.

[Codenpeg]

Druid // Wizard/Binder/Anima Mage or maybe just some Druid // Warblade or Swordsage?

If you get Precious Apprentice and a few levels of binder you can coast along on Anima Mage and then go with whatever from there. Or if you grab Warblade (BAB and maneuvers for when you decide to fight in animal form)

[Mephibosheth]

Depending on what sort of arcane magic you see the party needing, warlock might be another option. I've used warlock as one half of a gestalt in the past and, depending on your invocation selection, it can be quite synergistic. If you don't take invocations that require saves, warlock doesn't really have any ability score requirements. A lot of the invocations are buffs that last 24 hours. They have some good battlefield control invocations, stealth invocations, and other utility abilities (flying, teleportation, etc.). Plus, you can use their UMD-based class features to use wands and scrolls for more conventional arcane stuff as needed. You could even go the Eldritch Glaive route and use your glaive as a primary or backup melee weapon for the tank side of your build. I really like the idea of a gestalt warlock//hexblade or warlock//duskblade with the melee side as the primary focus enhanced with buffs and utility abilities from the warlock side. All-in-all, it could a pretty useful package. Perhaps not the most powerful, but another option.

[ksbsnowowl]

Druid // Wizard/Binder/Anima Mage ...Most DM's would lump Anima Mage in with Arcane Trickster, Mystic Theurge, and the like...

[Deaxsa]

Most DM's would lump Anima Mage in with Arcane Trickster, Mystic Theurge, and the like...

what book is anima mage in? i'm curious now.

[Greenish]

what book is anima mage in? i'm curious now.Tome of Magic. It's the arcane caster/binder combo PrC.

[morkendi]

I know I want to be evil, prob LE. Could go CN and do wizard/druid heading toward planner shepherd.

[Person_Man]

I know I want to be evil, prob LE. Could go CN and do wizard/druid heading toward planner shepherd.

If you want to be Evil, take a look at the various Vile and Deformity feats in the Book of Vile Darkness, Elder Evils, Champions of Ruin, etc. You can pick up immunity to Mind Affecting Effects, improved reach, divine spell resistance, impressive Fear effects, and other goodies.

[ksbsnowowl]

If you want to be Evil, take a look at the various Vile and Deformity feats in the Book of Vile Darkness, Elder Evils, Champions of Ruin, etc. You can pick up immunity to Mind Affecting Effects, improved reach, divine spell resistance, impressive Fear effects, and other goodies.

Take Aberration Wild Shape (Lords of Madness) and Assume Supernatural Ability (Savage Species?) to gain the eye rays of a Beholder...

[Vaz]

A Dip in Mindbender + Mindsense Feat nets you 100ft Radar. If you become a Necropolitan you can Wildshape for funzies as and when, but also never need to sleep, become a proper watchdog. Yep, it's actually an Undead Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7860838&postcount=10).

Yes. Draconic Wildshape.

Wildshape>Silver Dragon, Silver Dragon gives Alternate Form 3/day into Medium/Smaller 3/day. Spend one use, get 3 back! Hows that for 15/day Wild Shape.

Oh, and then there's the Vermin Keeper for Vermin Swarmshape (sadly, could not find one which would grant Aberrant Swarm for a Sithilar. Still; Scarab Beetle swarm. Deals 5d6 Swarm damage and Fort DC21 for 1d6/1d6 Con damage each time an opponent takes damage from them, and if they're reduced to 0 Con, then there are utterly destroyed and cannot be brought back to life (provided they're alive).

Plus, you nauseate any nonmindless who share your square, you get immunity to Crits, Flanking, Immunity to all weapon damage (yes, even a Planetthrowing Hulking hurler), immune to trip, bull rush, grapple, but oddly it seems as though you can trip and bull rush in return. Of course, your Strength is only 1, so whether you want to do it or not is up to you.