Necro Help

[kimfu]

I'm trying to build a Necromancer, one that can have very powerful minions who compete with other party members.

I'd like it to be a Mind Flayer (as from the MM 3.5) but i don't know the important things about necromancy (My first campaign was played using PHB1 only).

I've heard of Dread Necromancers, but i don't know if they specialize in powerful undeads or not, also true necromancers, and many other necromancers, but I've yet to read some books, including Libris Mortis, Hanbook Necromancer, and some other ones.

Also, is the necromancer charisma based? or intelligence based?
I've read some necromancers can wear armor, and others can't.
Also, the diference between Metamagics and Divine Metamagics for a necromancer? can they use both?
If they rebuke undead, did the class come from clerics? even tho they count as arcane caster? I get confused with some things i read, i'm new to d&d (only played one campaign with PHB1 only) so i don't really get most of the terms used in forums or guides :smalleek:

Any hints, or help is welcomed. Also book recommendations. Thanks :smallbiggrin:.

[Codyage]

Hmm well there are quite a bit of ways you can go about this.

Clerics can rebuke undead (Take control of them) They also get access to spells to raise the bodies of slain creatures, or what not to control them as undead.

Wizards and Sorcerers have the Necromancy schools so they can raise undead.

Dread Necromancers are on the road to become undead. Slowly of the course of their career becoming more undead. (They can be healed by negative energy, get auras for fear, control undead.) They become Liches at level 20 as an ability of the class.

Necropolitans are undead creatures that can be played as well.

So first question. Do you want to be undead yourself? Or just control the undead?

[Norin]

I'm trying to build a Necromancer, one that can have very powerful minions who compete with other party members.

I'd like it to be a Mind Flayer (as from the MM 3.5) but i don't know the important things about necromancy (My first campaign was played using PHB1 only).

I've heard of Dread Necromancers, but i don't know if they specialize in powerful undeads or not, also true necromancers, and many other necromancers, but I've yet to read some books, including Libris Mortis, Hanbook Necromancer, and some other ones.

Also, is the necromancer charisma based? or intelligence based?
I've read some necromancers can wear armor, and others can't.
Also, the diference between Metamagics and Divine Metamagics for a necromancer? can they use both?
If they rebuke undead, did the class come from clerics? even tho they count as arcane caster? I get confused with some things i read, i'm new to d&d (only played one campaign with PHB1 only) so i don't really get most of the terms used in forums or guides :smalleek:

Any hints, or help is welcomed. Also book recommendations. Thanks :smallbiggrin:.

"a necromancer" can be many things including, but not at all limited to.
- A cleric that casts divine necromancer spells
- A wizard that casts arcane necromancer spells
- A specialized wizard (in the school of necromancy) that casts arcane necromancer spells.
- A Dread Necromancer that casts arcane necromancers spells as a spontaneous caster with a more or less fixed spell list.
- A sorcerer that casts arcane necromancer spells.
- Any combination of the above with possibly necromancer oriented PrC's as well.

What stat the necromancer uses depends on his caster class (cha for dread necro, wis for cleric, int for wizard, etc).

Here are some handbooks:
Dread necro class (http://community.wizards.com/bleak_academy/wiki/Dread_Necromancer%27s_Handbook)

Necromancy for different classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5584.0)

Another Dread Nec handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872470/New_Dread_Necromancer_Handbook)

More on the Dread Necro class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214212)

Advanced learning spell selection for Dread Necro (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2242)

Master of shrouds prc handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3310)

Necromantic oddities (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=181)

...alot more can be found here:
Hanbook index (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12678.0)

Also, to understand what a "necromancer is" i would suggest you read up a bit on the classes and spellcasting in PHB.

Hope that helped a bit.

[kimfu]

So first question. Do you want to be undead yourself? Or just control the undead?
Yes, I've read undeads have critical immunity? That would really help :smalltongue:


Also, to understand what a "necromancer is" i would suggest you read up a bit on the classes and spellcasting in PHB.

Hope that helped a bit.

And yes, this should really help me a lot, and give me lots of stuff to read :smallbiggrin:

[Stabbald]

I'd like it to be a Mind Flayer (as from the MM 3.5) but i don't know the important things about necromancy (My first campaign was played using PHB1 only).

I highly recommend that you give up on this idea. With the huge HD/LA, you'd be better off playing a core race.

[Zanthy1]

I highly recommend that you give up on this idea. With the huge HD/LA, you'd be better off playing a core race.

Mindflayers are really cool, but he is correct that the amount of levels you would be taking away to be it are not really worth it if you want to specialize in something such as necromancy.

Classes? Personally I have found that Dread Necromancer is totally AWESOME! I am slowly in the process of building one. Also Clerics are good at Necromancy. I would not recommend Sorcerer, though I understand the appeal. The class is prety simple to understand, but with the limited selection of spells, its generally better not to focus on something that you might not be using all the time. (yes you would be necromanting, but a sorcerer is usually the spam caster of blasting spells, dishing out mad damage).

Books I would suggest are Libris Mortis and Heroes of Horror. Also ShneekeyTheLost made a really amazing Dread Necormancers guide.

Here it is: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214212

[SillySymphonies]

I'm trying to build a Necromancer, one that can have very powerful minions who compete with other party members.
Do you mean you want your necromancer to be a contributing party member via their minions? Or do you actually want to compete with your fellow players? The latter is generally frowned upon: this is a cooperative game, after all.



I'd like it to be a Mind Flayer (as from the MM 3.5) but i don't know the important things about necromancy (My first campaign was played using PHB1 only).
A mind flayer has 8 monstrous hit dice (HD) and a level adjustment of 7, meaning you can only play one from level 16 onward. We generally advise against playing high level adjustment races like the mind flayer. For more info, go here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928#4.



I've heard of Dread Necromancers, but i don't know if they specialize in powerful undeads or not, also true necromancers, and many other necromancers, but I've yet to read some books, including Libris Mortis, Hanbook Necromancer, and some other ones.

Also, is the necromancer charisma based? or intelligence based?
I've read some necromancers can wear armor, and others can't.
A necromancer is generally understood to be any character that makes excessive use of necromancy spells. Representative spells include cause fear, animate dead, and finger of death. Such a concept can be approached by a number of classes, and your casting stat and the ability to wear armor depends on your class. Refer to Norin's post for a more in-depth analysis.



Also, the diference between Metamagics and Divine Metamagics for a necromancer? can they use both?
If they rebuke undead, did the class come from clerics? even tho they count as arcane caster? I get confused with some things i read, i'm new to d&d (only played one campaign with PHB1 only) so i don't really get most of the terms used in forums or guides :smalleek:From the d20 SRD:

As a spellcaster’s knowledge of magic grows, she can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the ways in which the spells were originally designed or learned. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, at least it is possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.
Divine metamagic is a specific kind of metamagic which uses turn attempts (a cleric class feature) instead of higher spell slots to power metamagic. Divine metamagic can prove to be severely overpowered in a low optimization game (judging from your questions, you are playing in such an environment), so use at your own discretion.

I hope this helps.

[Sception]

First up, you may want to begin by reconsidering your goals. Necromancy isn't generally going to deliver servants that are as or more powerful than (reasonably built) party members, because the strongest undead you can generally create are animated skeletons, and the strength of those is directly dependent on the strength of the monsters the DM throws at you.

Also, even if you are able to get such powerful monsters, do you really want to be controlling so many things at the same time? When you don't seem to have a grasp on the basic rules to begin with? Handling a full spellcaster alone is more hassle than most new players can enjoyably manage, handling a full caster and minions? Are you really going to be able to understand what you're doing? Execute your turns quickly and not bog down the game?

And even then, do you really want a character that overshadows other characters so blatantly? Necromancy is not the strongest passtime a spellcaster can take up in 3.5, but it is one of the most disruptive, and when it's working on all cylinders its one of the most overt in overshadowing lesser non-casting classes, and that's not generally fun.

As a practical matter, I recommend necromancers keep their undead to a relatively manageable pool, possibly creating additional creatures to then be ordered to follow the commands of other party members. Maybe a cool skeletal nightmare for the ranger to ride around on, or a zombie troll bodybag to help guard the wizard?

This helps head off complaints from other characters, and keeps one player's turn from dominating all of the combat time....


anyway, this link was already posted, but makes a good starting place for necromancy optimization:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2733.0

A good starting point, though some of the rules interpretations (particularly vis a vis rebuke/command undead) are contested, and it definitely has a strong min-maxer/optimizer perspective. But, again, good starting place.



Your main issue will be the mind flayer part. Mind flayers are great monsters, but terrible PCs. between their racial hit dice and level adjustment, they're not even a valid choice until later levels, for one. And if your game uses the psionic mind flayers (as most do), then you're basically boned for necromancy - psionics is one of the few magical disciplines with little to no necromantic competence.


For a first time necromancer, I'd stick to a la+0 race (maybe something easy, with a cha bonus, like spellscale from races of the dragon, or the cha-type hellborn from I forget which book, the compendium that covered devils), and play a Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror. Be sure to pick up Libris Mortis as well for some of the feats included (Tomb Tainted Soul especially), and the Spell Compendium for the final updated versions of some of your spells.

The link above has a pretty good guide to playing a dread necro. It recommends jumping out at level 8, but I'd suggest just sticking single classed Dread Necro for the whole progression.

DNec doesn't have permanent undead pets until level 8, earlier on utilizing more summoned undead and taking control of undead you find in the wild via rebuking and the second level spell 'command undead'. It's an extremely durable class for a spellcaster, with damage reduction early on, making it forgiving to play. It has most of the relevant necromancy abilities: rebuking (as a cleric, from level 1), command undead (2nd level spell, at level 4), animate Dead (4th level spell, at level 8), and the Summon Undead spell line (from level 1, but they don't really get off the ground until level 6 or so).

On top of that, you get some effective debuff, control, Save-or-die, and damage spells, a fear aura, a built in touch attack, some undead-like resistances and immunities, an improved familiar (though not till level 7). And while you don't cast Animate Dead until level 8 (one level after a wizard, three levels after a cleric, five levels after dragon magazine's Death Master), when you do get access to the spell you can animate more undead and your undead are stronger.


Anyway, as for advice on dread necros, this guide (http://community.wizards.com/bleak_academy/wiki/Dread_Necromancer%27s_Handbook) was already linked (I didn't write it, but I did transcribe it to wizards wiki thing). There's also a guide on these forums (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214212) for another take on it.

[Norin]

I would not recommend Sorcerer, though I understand the appeal. The class is prety simple to understand, but with the limited selection of spells, its generally better not to focus on something that you might not be using all the time. (yes you would be necromanting, but a sorcerer is usually the spam caster of blasting spells, dishing out mad damage).


Yeah, go for the Dread Necromancer if you like the appeal of the Sorcerer.

DN casts the same way with a more or less fixed list of spells. If you can cast the spell level, you have spontaneous access to all the spells on the DN spell list for that level. Pretty cool and very easy to use.

DN also has alot of funky special abilities that make them more necromancer-like than most classes.

[kimfu]

Wow, this has been really helpful :smallbiggrin:
I really thank you, i'll reconsider choosing another race, i didn't know the level adjustment thingy :smalltongue:
I'll be busy reading some books now hahaha, and it is awesome.