[3.5] About iterative attacks

[yougi]

So I realized yesterday that I don't understand much about multiple attacks. I mean, I get that if you don't move more than a 5ft step, you can make a full attack. I get that part. However, there's some things I don't get.

I went to the SRD and got this:


If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.


1- Full attack and natural weapons
One of my PCs has a horned helm, and another one is a Krynn Minotaur: they both have a gore attack. Yesterday...
PC: "so I move towards the giant, and I attack him: 8+14 is 22."
Me: "Miss"
PC: "Alright, so second attack..."
Me: "No, you moved"
PC: "oh right... so gore attack then"
Me: "No, you can't, you moved!"
PC: "I've always been able to gore attack when I move"
Me: "You just got your horned helm!"
PC: "Well your mama's so fat"

Well, not exactly, but it kind of started an argument, and that's no fun. What is the rule on that? Is a natural weapon considered fighting with two weapons (argument made by other players was that since multiattack and twf were different feats, then natural weapons were not considered to be the same)? Then, is a horned helm a "natural" weapon, or a manufactured weapon (making the rules for the two PCs different)?

2- Iterative attacks and Cleave
I also thought about Cleave: my group's Barbarian has 3 attacks with his greataxe: +20/+15/+10, and one with his gore (he's the minotaur from the previous question) at +13. He also has Cleave and Power Attack. Here's how I treated it so far.

Case A: Barb moves towards two ogres: he attacks one (at +20) and rolls 36 damage: Ogre's down. He cleaves the second one even though he moved (at +20), and misses. End of turn.

Case B: Barb is adjacent to two ogres: he attacks one (at +20) and rolls 36 damage: Ogre's down. He either cleaves the other one (at +20) and does not get his other attacks at lower BAB (nor his gore) OR finishes his iteratives on the second one (at +15 and +10, and gore).

Is that correct? Also, if he Power Attacks, does he use the same amount of PA on the cleave?

[jindra34]

For CASE 1: You only get one ATTACK, natural or manufactured, if you move. So PC was wrong.

CASE 2:A. Is correct. B. If you get cleave you go through that then continue with the rest of your iteratives. And yes Power Attack applies to all attacks made before the start of your next round. Including AoO's.

[Douglas]

1- Full attack and natural weapons
If you move, you only get one attack. Natural weapons are no exception to this. It is not considered "fighting with two weapons", but the general rule of "multiple attacks = must use a full attack" applies anyway.

2- Iterative attacks and Cleave
Case A is correct, Case B is not. The Barb downs one ogre, gets his Cleave attack, and also gets all the rest of his normal attacks too. Bonus attacks from Cleave are always in addition to whatever else you have, they do not replace anything.

If he uses Power Attack, he uses the same penalty and bonus from the feat for every attack in the entire round. That includes Cleave attacks and even attacks of opportunity.

[yougi]

9 minutes to get an answer, gotta love this place!

Thanks to both of you! :)

[Khedrac]

In general (there are specific exceptions) you cannot attack more than once on your turn without making a full attack - and the full attack limits you to a 5' step as you have no move action to move with.
Having natural weapons does not change this - if you have a great-axe and gore then to use both of them takes a full attack, regardless of the base attack bonus and possible iteratives.

Cleave is one of the specific exceptions...

2- Iterative attacks and Cleave
I also thought about Cleave: my group's Barbarian has 3 attacks with his greataxe: +20/+15/+10, and one with his gore (he's the minotaur from the previous question) at +13. He also has Cleave and Power Attack. Here's how I treated it so far.OK

Case A: Barb moves towards two ogres: he attacks one (at +20) and rolls 36 damage: Ogre's down. He cleaves the second one even though he moved (at +20), and misses. End of turn.Correct.


Case B: Barb is adjacent to two ogres: he attacks one (at +20) and rolls 36 damage: Ogre's down. He either cleaves the other one (at +20) and does not get his other attacks at lower BAB (nor his gore) OR finishes his iteratives on the second one (at +15 and +10, and gore).Ah - this is actually wrong. The sequence is:
1) attack first ogre at +20, hit, do 36 damage and drop ogre
2) cleave into 2nd ogre - attack at +20
3) 2nd attack on 2nd ogre at +15
4) gore attack on 2nd ogre at +13
5) 3rd great-axe attack on 2nd ogre at +10

The attacks have to be taken in order of highest attack bonus to lowest - so the cleave interrupts the sequence and the gore goes between great-axe attacks. It also means that a bonus attack (e.g. from haste) should be taken at the start of the round.

Cleave does not deny the character any unused attacks (unless the opponent dies so there is no target left for unused attacks).

Should you Power Attack the amount of PA must be declared first - before any attack - it then applies to every attack made until the character's next turn - so all 3 attacks, any cleaves and any attacks of opportunity made before next round. if the attack sequence includes a light weapon that you cannot use power attack with the penalty still applies (As it applies to every attack made) although there is no bonus damage on the light weapons.
For the minotaur the greateaxe will add twice the PA to the damage and the gore just the PA amount.

Edit: what I get for typing up a fuller answer - beaten to it by douglas :)

[yougi]

But your post did make a point no one else made, that is the fact that the gore attack would come in between the 3nd and 3rd greataxe attacks.

[Firest Kathon]

The attacks have to be taken in order of highest attack bonus to lowest
Do you have a source for this? I'm not doubting you're right, but I've never read that specific rule.

[hymer]

Page 143 in my PHB under full attack. Or you can find it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack). :smallsmile:

[mattie_p]

Do you have a source for this? I'm not doubting you're right, but I've never read that specific rule.

The source for this rule is in the Full Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack) explanation. Quoting from the SRD:


If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.


The bolded part is what is pertinent. This is generally (but not always) assumed to mean that all attacks are made in order from highest attack bonus to lowest, including placing natural attacks in the sequence according to their attack bonus.

Note that the specific wording allows exceptions to this, for example, with two-weapon fighting. If you have a +1 flaming burst longsword in one hand and a +3 shortsword in the other, you can still attack with either first, even though the +3 sword may have a higher attack bonus. Also if you have a greataxe wielded in both hands and a gore attack, you are still fighting with two-weapons, and thus can attack with either first.

In most circumstances, the exact attack order for mixing natural weapons into your iteratives won't matter too much, but if it does, please speak with your DM to get clarification.