Five Foot Step for Larger Creatures?

[Deaxsa]

I was playing a short, silly game with one of my friends, and we were screwing around, essentially playing DnD by wave combat, but we stumbled(no pun intended) across a problem. He was fighting a giant, and i (the DM) needed to have that giant take a 5-foot step. However, something just TELLS me that when a creature of the Large or Huge(or bigger) variety takes a 5-foot step, it's not actually a 5-foot step. It's more of 10 or 15 foot step. And then i wondered, well, if a troll gets a 10-foot step, and a human gets a 5-foot step, what about something with many legs, like a horse or a monstrous spider? Their steps are about the same distance as a human(give or take), so do they only get 5-foot steps, despite being large? Or is it a function of base movespeed? In which case the troll/ogre/giant gets screwed, because the RAW have their base MS being abysmally low for something that size.

Anyways, is there a table somewhere, or a formula, or generally accepted values, what's the deal with this conundrum.

[Fouredged Sword]

Everything just gets 5 feet.

[Pink]

There is a certain validity to this conundrum. While technically a five-foot step isn't necessarily a single step (else halflings and such would clearly not be able to do this), it represents a quick tactical movement that, as per the system design, most anyone is capable of in a combat situation. Since it doesn't necessarily represent a single step but rather a 'safe' distance of movement, there is a certain sense in applying it as a blanket.

However at the extreme sizes, huge and tiny and so forth, it does bend believability. How does a creature a foot tall run 5' with such ease that they don't give an opening in their defense for an AoO? Why would a giant with a regular step span of ten feet only move five? Alas, this is the price paid to prevent an already fairly robust and complicated rule system from spiraling out of control.

Mechanically, as far as I know, as long as a creature has a movement speed of 10' or greater, I believe the 5' step is applied universally at the same distance. The only exceptions are when it is augmented by some feat or class ability, and on that note I believe there are feats out there that allow particularly large creatures the ability to make a 10' step.

[Deaxsa]

Everything just gets 5 feet.

That's true for everything? Even the colossal dragon, or tarrasque, whose legs are probably 15x15? That does not sit right with me. Heck, even on the small side! have you got the tiny/diminutive creatures taking 'singular' 5-foot steps when a real step is probably only like 6 inches or less? Or is it just a combat maneuver, in which 5 feet is the maximum you can go before people start to get bothered and try and attack you?

[Spruit]

It's just called a 5 foot step, in reality it is a tactical maneuver in which the 5 feet of movement does not provoke an attack. If a tarrasque moved 10 feet whoever was threatening him would have recognized his movement by then and tried to attack him as he was moving.

[Deaxsa]

what if i were to houserule that a 'shift' (to use 4.0 terms) is equal to some fraction of your base movespeed, rounded down (say, a fourth?). Is that reasonable/balanced? or too much math(kind of funny, accusing someone of too much math in DnD)? the question stands, however. What are the most common occurrences of creatures with less than 20 base MS? where would the rule fall apart?

(also, should i just make this a topic in homebrew? or is it ok to have a discussion about homebrewing off of a rule discussion in this forum?)

[jindra34]

what if i were to houserule that a 'shift' (to use 4.0 terms) is equal to some fraction of your base movespeed, rounded down (say, a fourth?). Is that reasonable/balanced? or too much math(kind of funny, accusing someone of too much math in DnD)? the question stands, however. What are the most common occurrences of creatures with less than 20 base MS? where would the rule fall apart?

(also, should i just make this a topic in homebrew? or is it ok to have a discussion about homebrewing off of a rule discussion in this forum?)

It'd get really silly. Some really large monsters have very low movement rates, and some little monsters have silly high fly speeds (as in 120'+).
And that would mean you have little guys jetting across the battle while some big ones are even more hampered. And how would speed boosts like the one from haste effect the steps?

[Deaxsa]

It'd get really silly. Some really large monsters have very low movement rates, and some little monsters have silly high fly speeds (as in 120'+).
And that would mean you have little guys jetting across the battle while some big ones are even more hampered. And how would speed boosts like the one from haste effect the steps?

umm. i meant land speed, lol. not fly, or swim, or even climb. just walking around. and does haste increase base? just checked: no, so haste would not affect this. in fact, can you even take 5-foot steps in flight if you don't have perfect or can't hover?

[jindra34]

umm. i meant land speed, lol. not fly, or swim, or even climb. just walking around. and does haste increase base? just checked: no, so haste would not affect this. in fact, can you even take 5-foot steps in flight if you don't have perfect or can't hover?

If you have good, perfect, or hover yeah you can take a 5 foot step with it. And guess what most little dudes have as a flight rating? And given environments and movement modes saying it only works for your ground speed is a little silly.

[nedz]

There are a few ways of getting 10' steps, but they're quite rare.

You can think of it as an adjustment, or a rounding, since all movement and positions are quantised by the 5' grid.

[hymer]

Just throwing this out there: Being able to 5-foot step 10 feet or more would mean the ability activate skirmish with a full attack by default.

[HalfGrammarGeek]

what if i were to houserule that a 'shift' (to use 4.0 terms) is equal to some fraction of your base movespeed, rounded down (say, a fourth?). Is that reasonable/balanced? or too much math(kind of funny, accusing someone of too much math in DnD)? the question stands, however. What are the most common occurrences of creatures with less than 20 base MS? where would the rule fall apart?
No, it's not balanced; but neither is big creatures having threatening reach by default. So your rule would make big creatures a bit more dangerous and harder to pin down in melee, but imbalanced? The ship's already sailed on balance, my friend. :)


(also, should i just make this a topic in homebrew? or is it ok to have a discussion about homebrewing off of a rule discussion in this forum?)
You'll probably get fewer naysayers in homebrew.

[Curmudgeon]

That's true for everything? Even the colossal dragon, or tarrasque, whose legs are probably 15x15?
The reality of bigger creatures is that it's much harder for them to move. The Tarrasque only has a 20' speed. Shifting that huge bulk any distance at all is ridiculously difficult. D&D only gets away with enormously big creatures by not counting their own weight when they're figuring out how much they can lift or carry; otherwise, most things above Huge size would be crushed purely from their own weight.

[KillianHawkeye]

It wouldn't be too big of a change, but you'll run into a few cases where the monster's speed isn't congruent with their size, like cheetahs.

[Deaxsa]

The reality of bigger creatures is that it's much harder for them to move. The Tarrasque only has a 20' speed. Shifting that huge bulk any distance at all is ridiculously difficult.

correction: STARTING to move a huge bulk takes lots of energy. inertia, and all that

D&D only gets away with enormously big creatures by not counting their own weight when they're figuring out how much they can lift or carry; otherwise, most things above Huge size would be crushed purely from their own weight.

unlike in real life, where huge creatures exists solely in locations where the atmosphere 'weighs' enough to counteract the whole 'crush myself' thing

still though, DnD is just DnD, not real life. i guess i'll just live with this obnoxious rule. :smallfrown:

[HalfGrammarGeek]

still though, DnD is just DnD, not real life. i guess i'll just live with this obnoxious rule. :smallfrown:
Why live with a rule you don't like? Assuming you're the DM, of course.

[Absol197]

I was thinking about this myself, actually, and the solution I came up with is to replace 5-foot steps with "tactical shifts." A tactical shift uses the same rules as a five-foot step, but you can move a distance equal to your reach, and that can be through occupied squares, as long as you don't end the movement inside them.

This means larger creatures can move more than teeny-tiny amounts, while small creatures don't move several times their body length with a single free action.

Just a suggestion.


~Phoenix~

[limejuicepowder]

Not a bad idea with the reach thing, though it still has some odd cases (feats that grant extra reach, Ropers).

For simplicity's sake, I would just leave it or use the following: creatures tiny or smaller can't use the 5 foot step action, small though large is unchanged, and huge or bigger get a 10' step or 1/2 their movement speed, whichever is lower.

[Phelix-Mu]

I was thinking about this myself, actually, and the solution I came up with is to replace 5-foot steps with "tactical shifts." A tactical shift uses the same rules as a five-foot step, but you can move a distance equal to your reach, and that can be through occupied squares, as long as you don't end the movement inside them.

This means larger creatures can move more than teeny-tiny amounts, while small creatures don't move several times their body length with a single free action.
Just a suggestion.
~Phoenix~

Makes ogre scouts much, much more dangerous. Particularly when wielding reach weapons of the appropriate size. A similar fix for scout would need to be implemented, methinks, increasing minimum distance moved to 2x "shift" distance, or something like that. Be sure to also mod Improved Skirmish.

As an addendum, Elocater allows a second 5' step as a 7th or 8th level class feature. A 3.0 item lets monks get a 10' step for 30k gp and a weeks' worth of training.

Clearly it is a valuable ability.

Also a problem are creatures that have multiple reaches, dragons and the like.

[Deaxsa]

well, some great suggestions just popped up. the reason i was about to live with it was that i didn't want to complicate everybody's(meaning my players) life with things. however, i think the suggestions will be used, specifically Limejuice's based on size. i do like the idea of reach, but then you'd have to start introducing ifs/and/buts such as: natural reach(i'm wielding a pike look at me!), special exceptions, etc. but yea. i like your idea, limejuice, but i am partial to the whole 'based on (natural) reach' idea of absol because that solves the horse/monstrous spider issue as well. i think that i'll just use the reach idea, with a 'no abuse' rule and a 'common sense' rule. i'm not sure though. i might just use limejuice's. It's up in the air at the moment.
thanks you guys :smallbiggrin:

[pffh]

If you have good, perfect, or hover yeah you can take a 5 foot step with it. And guess what most little dudes have as a flight rating? And given environments and movement modes saying it only works for your ground speed is a little silly.

On the other hand small flying creatures zipping about avoiding hits is how small flying creatures are depicted acting in combat in most media.

[Absol197]

Makes ogre scouts much, much more dangerous. Particularly when wielding reach weapons of the appropriate size. A similar fix for scout would need to be implemented, methinks, increasing minimum distance moved to 2x "shift" distance, or something like that. Be sure to also mod Improved Skirmish.

As an addendum, Elocater allows a second 5' step as a 7th or 8th level class feature. A 3.0 item lets monks get a 10' step for 30k gp and a weeks' worth of training.

Clearly it is a valuable ability.

Also a problem are creatures that have multiple reaches, dragons and the like.

By reach, I mean the creature's natural reach. So, in the "reach" entry of their statblock, it'll say something like "5 ft., 10 with spear" or "10 with bite." You'd only ever use the first number.

I agree that scouts need to be fixed. Your solution is as good as any!


~Phoenix~

[nedz]

I did once run an encounter where I gave a large monster 10' steps — It went OK, but I haven't repeated the experiment. Your players may well grumble.

It is very common for large monsters to get boxed in by flanking PCs and walls so that they cannot take 5' steps.

[Sith_Happens]

The problem with giving larger creatures bigger "steps" is that, as a melee character, anything bigger than you could kite you with their "steps" and you'd have to take move actions to keep up. Which means each turn it gets a full attack and an AoO (thanks to larger reach) while you're stuck making single attacks.

[Deaxsa]

The problem with giving larger creatures bigger "steps" is that, as a melee character, anything bigger than you could kite you with their "steps" and you'd have to take move actions to keep up. Which means each turn it gets a full attack and an AoO (thanks to larger reach) while you're stuck making single attacks.

it would take one seriously cruel DM to abuse this in his player's faces, and one seriously weak DM to let a player abuse this.

[StreamOfTheSky]

There are only 5 ft steps for balance reasons.

IF you were to allow farther steps for certain people, you would base it on movement speed, NOT size. I don't care if you're the size of a skyscraper. If you only have speed 30, clearly you're not so good at covering a lot of ground real fast.

Please keep in mind it is not necessarily a singular "step." That's what it is called, but it could be multiple different kinds of quick, darting movement / positional adjustment.

I once wanted to houserule that for every 30 ft above speed 30, your "5 ft step" increased by 5 ft. Then I realized that while intended to help monks, the biggest beneficiaries would be flying casters and dragons, and scrapped the idea.

[TuggyNE]

it would take one seriously cruel DM to abuse this in his player's faces, and one seriously weak DM to let a player abuse this.

Your point is?

[Deaxsa]

Your point is?

I don't think it would be a problem. if it is, there are bigger problems at hand. (Unless it's a war of optimization, DM vs. Players)

[awa]

but if your not making use of this tactically what is the point of having it. It's saying here ive made a fundamental change to how tactical movement works but pretend i didn't.

also you may note that creatures like ogres (2 legged creatures) tend to have longer natural reach then creatures like horses (4 legged creatures) so personally i feel reach is a bad choice to base this on if your goal is increased realism.

it just kinda making things even harder for melee types at the higher level when large+ size becomes so common

[Deaxsa]

but if your not making use of this tactically what is the point of having it. It's saying here ive made a fundamental change to how tactical movement works but pretend i didn't.

also you may note that creatures like ogres (2 legged creatures) tend to have longer natural reach then creatures like horses (4 legged creatures) so personally i feel reach is a bad choice to base this on if your goal is increased realism.

it just kinda making things even harder for melee types at the higher level when large+ size becomes so common

because i'm not using it to be abused, just so that things line up in my head. of course i'm not going to make a troll scout who can take a full attack on it's turn. however, when they are fighting a troll, and it takes a 5-foot step, it can move up to ten feet.

[Sith_Happens]

it would take one seriously cruel DM to abuse this in his player's faces, and one seriously weak DM to let a player abuse this.

There are already lots of things that a DM would have to be "cruel" to use. That doesn't make those things any more balanced. And if you really want to tell your players "no, you're not allowed to use the tactical advantage that my house rule logically creates," then... Well, good luck with that.

[HalfGrammarGeek]

There are already lots of things that a DM would have to be "cruel" to use. That doesn't make those things any more balanced. And if you really want to tell your players "no, you're not allowed to use the tactical advantage that my house rule logically creates," then... Well, good luck with that.
As you say, there's already plenty of fodder for cruel DMs to use; the only difference between this one and the rest is that WotC didn't print it in some book. One more isn't going to suddenly explode the game.

As for players abusing 10+ ft. steps...since when are Large+ races a given? It's easy enough to simply disallow them. Or just tack another LA onto Large+ PC races.

[Synovia]

also you may note that creatures like ogres (2 legged creatures) tend to have longer natural reach then creatures like horses (4 legged creatures) so personally i feel reach is a bad choice to base this on if your goal is increased realism.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. An ogre should be able to move further than a horse without opening himself up to an AOO, because he has hands and can use a weapon.

The 5 foot step is how far you can move in 6 seconds and still defend yourself. Its not really about speed. It would make a lot of sense that creatures with longer reach, who can keep an attacker away from them, would be able to spend more of their 6 seconds moving.

[Khatoblepas]

As for players abusing 10+ ft. steps...since when are Large+ races a given? It's easy enough to simply disallow them. Or just tack another LA onto Large+ PC races.

Scout: Hey, Wizard, could you spare another one of your Malaprop's Giant Girth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm) spells? I need the extra boost so I can tear into these people.
Wizard: Being a responsible wizard, I am sure to prepare a couple of these for Beefo the Wonder Clod and you! *casts* It's Giant Growth, though.
Scout: Thanks, Wizard! *10ft step, peppers arrows into enemies*
Beefo: I GET TO THE SMASHING FASTER NOW. *leap attacks as a free action, power attack*

Also, adding LA onto large races won't really help. They're already pretty boned compared humans. While I wouldn't use this houserule myself, I don't think it does anything but help melee. So I can get behind it. I'd still have the minimum step be 5ft, though, or you'll get tiny creatures be locked into being beat down.

[awa]

fine then a ropper, phantom fungus assassin vine ect whose reach is equal to or greater then its move speed

or creatures like a centaur with a spiked chain who have less natural reach then an ogres the same effective reach and a greater speed and dexterity but by these rules cant move as quickly.

my point is reach is a lousy way to do this using reach just makes every thing more complicated with no real benefit in return

[nedz]

Well there is the Monk's Sparring Dummy and the Gliding Boots both of which grant 10' steps —so just put your Ogre Scouts on roller skates.

[HalfGrammarGeek]

Scout: Hey, Wizard, could you spare another one of your Malaprop's Giant Girth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm) spells? I need the extra boost so I can tear into these people.
Wizard: Being a responsible wizard, I am sure to prepare a couple of these for Beefo the Wonder Clod and you! *casts* It's Giant Growth, though.
Scout: Thanks, Wizard! *10ft step, peppers arrows into enemies*
Beefo: I GET TO THE SMASHING FASTER NOW. *leap attacks as a free action, power attack*
...Magic is broken/awesome. What's new?



Also, adding LA onto large races won't really help. They're already pretty boned compared humans.
*shrug* I agree; the LA suggestion was just for those who might think "What, goliaths with 10 ft. steps? Too much broken!"

[Deaxsa]

what about this set of rules:

1. A character's 'shift' is equal to 1/4 their movespeed, rounded down.

2. to use skirmish, a character must travel double their shift distance in one turn. (this means that using two shifts still counts as allowing this, as per some items)

3. you may not shift and make a full attack while moving away from your target.

4. a creature's shift distance can be no lower than 5 feet, unless they are incapable of movement or of a smaller size category than tiny.

5. Bull rush may be used with a shift action as well as a charge action (because i should be able to push people even if i'm going super slow)

can anyone find any problem with these? also, i'm using 'shift' in place of 'five-foot step' so as to avoid confusion.

things that don't bother me: fairies whizzing around. they should be allowed to do this, they are supposed to be fast.
so far, things that still irk me with these rules: big and slow creatures, such as trolls and The Tarrasque.