Getting into the thief franchise?

[nhbdy]

So, I picked the games up over the last steam sale, and seeing as they didn't have the naming convention of 1, 2, and 3, I did what any rational person would do, picked one of the "not 2" games at random and gave it a go. I enjoyed the first mission or two of deadly shadows (the one I picked arbitrarily) but realized I wasn't in the first game (because I finally stopped being too lazy to look up which one was first) so I rebooted into thief gold (and modded it with the fix online to make the cinematics work). And herein lies the problem, I like to brag about how a game can be timeless, and how old titles are still very enjoyable, etc... but thief gold... it just feels old to the point of being hard to play... and I'm not just referring to graphics (which are, unfortunately representative of one of my least favorite eras in graphics) but the game mechanics feel... floaty? Inexact? Which starts to get cumbersome as the game seems to want you to do some precision work on it's movement and stealth sections (ie. most of the game). I'm also frankly confused by the monsters in the game, when they purposefully limit your combat ability to discourage fighting, why then would they put entities that more or less force combat if encountered? Or am I doing it wrong? Am I the only one with these problems, and am I looking at these games in the wrong light? If anyone would care to comment, or give some tips to make the transition to the game smoother, they'd be much appreciated, but I think the most jarring issue I have is that there is such a big difference (to me at least) between the feel of the third one (that I felt I could jump right into and feel comfortable with) and the first one, looking back it'd be like trying to play ME1 after starting later in the series...

[Whoracle]

Well, thief 1/gold is relatively hard and hasn't aged too well. I'd mostly encourage slogging through because of its story. 2 is definitely the high point of the series, and 3 would be OK if it didn't have to live up to 2.

But floatiness isn't something I encountered in 1. And apart from 2 levels (both happening in the cathedral) you're not that forced to fight. Those two levels: Just soldier through.

If you absolutely, positively can't stand 1, watch this LP (http://lparchive.org/Thief-I-The-Dark-Project/) of it, and then play 2 and 3.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I'm not just referring to graphics (which are, unfortunately representative of one of my least favorite eras in graphics)

Thief 2 has pretty much the same graphics, but better textures so it can almost feel pretty at times (I say from decade old memory).


but the game mechanics feel... floaty? Inexact? Which starts to get cumbersome as the game seems to want you to do some precision work on it's movement and stealth sections (ie. most of the game).

Its a difficult game. One of its descriptors is 'the first game unplayable with the sound off'.

Its also not really meant to be 'ghosted' (never spotted, no knocking anyone out). That was just a challenge players made up that the designers deliberately accommodated in the sequels. Sometimes you just need to knock a guy out or run away and hide.


I'm also frankly confused by the monsters in the game, when they purposefully limit your combat ability to discourage fighting, why then would they put entities that more or less force combat if encountered?

Guess what Thief 2 doesn't have? The original game had a bit of a identity problem, caused partly by its genre not existing yet. Basically half the development team wanted to make a Elder Scrolls style dungeon crawler until half way through the development and then didn't want to waste the effort (or something like that).

Combat isn't exactly impossible either. You can beat a single guard one on one quite easily once you work out the sword fighting controls and there are health potions. Its when you're outnumbered and outflanked or the enemy is armoured and wielding a two-handed warhammer that you really don't want to fight.

Its the spiders that are horribly nasty.


Or am I doing it wrong? Am I the only one with these problems, and am I looking at these games in the wrong light? If anyone would care to comment, or give some tips to make the transition to the game smoother, they'd be much appreciated, but I think the most jarring issue I have is that there is such a big difference (to me at least) between the feel of the third one (that I felt I could jump right into and feel comfortable with) and the first one, looking back it'd be like trying to play ME1 after starting later in the series...

Playing old games can be hard. I'd find it pretty hard to convince someone that the third game is the worst one (which it is) and I'm not entirely sure the amount of work one would have to put into playing the games to understand that is worth it (playing each one twice at least). Its not like the third one is bad, it just fails to recreate some of the features of the original and completely removes others (swimming and sword fighting) but mostly that's just in the post 90s level design (eg the common blight of modern gaming).

The feel of the third game doesn't seem that different to me, at least not compared to the second (eg the most steam punk one).

[huttj509]

Hmmm. I recently started with Thief Gold (beat it, on 2nd mission of Thief 2 now), and didn't have the floaty feeling you do.

One of the main complaints about Thief 1 I've heard is "too many zombies." There's some stages where it feels much more like fighting your way through undead as opposed to sneaking round avoiding people.

For the human guards, I found great fun in the stealthy sneaking, keeping to shadows as I cosh them and hide the slumbering bodies in dark corners. Paying close attention to the type of flooring, how much sound I'd make, etc.

What really clinched the "Thief feel" for me was carrying a guard to my chosen "hide bodies here" spot, and hear an unexpected patrol coming (love how it encourages you to use your ears to detect incoming guards). Run back, find a shadow, and stand there carrying an unconscious guard while another patrols right in front of me, as I realize that I, in real life, am holding my breath as if the sound might alert the patrol.

Not having played 3 (yet), I can't speak to control differences. Maybe I'm just more used to the old doom/quake engines and how they handle. Maybe there's a control setup issue on your end. Without more details, I don't know.

Edit: Something I personally found interesting was, well, I picked up the 3 games in the steam sale, and went to try Thief Gold, figuring "I've heard good things about this. Probably overblown from nostalgia."

It hit the sweet spot for me, and I understand why I heard so many good things about it.

Part of what I liked was that it didn't feel like I had imposed no-kill goals and such, it was my own choice (I played on Normal. Yes...I know...). Also, the money you have to spend on a level is only the money you got from the previous, so no need to hoard. It felt like much more 'emergent gameplay' to me than more modern "don't kill anyone and get a better ending" games.

As I said, it hit the sweet spot for me. Though navigating that one mansion was a freaking PITA.

[nhbdy]

I guess what I meant about the controls was the fact that you HAVE to pay so much attention to where you step, and you have limited windows to make mad dashes to a ladder, or a rope, etc... and the terrain can just... have other plans, and I feel like sometimes I get caught in the level geometry where it shouldn't, and climbing just doesn't feel smooth, as it it can be hard to hit the ladder the way you mean to, etc... the steps thing is likely just me not being used to not knowing exactly where my feet are

EDIT: will definitely give thief gold another chance, and attempt to slog through it, and I for one like the fact that the combat is unwieldy, as it shows the character isn't a fighter, but a thief, still confused about how I'm supposed to scout out a haunted mine with zombies breathing down my neck though, for not forcing combat, they seem to demand a reaction....

[Whoracle]

[...]still confused about how I'm supposed to scout out a haunted mine with zombies breathing down my neck though, for not forcing combat, they seem to demand a reaction....

That's the prob with t1 that closet_skeleton mentioned.
Solution: Lots of holy water.

As to the movement: The engine isn't geared towards people really running. If you need to run/dash often, you're doing something "wrong" (as in "not the way the game was designed around").

[nhbdy]

That's the prob with t1 that closet_skeleton mentioned.
Solution: Lots of holy water.

As to the movement: The engine isn't geared towards people really running. If you need to run/dash often, you're doing something "wrong" (as in "not the way the game was designed around").
... you mean it's wrong to ninja dash when people turn their back? I thought I was supposed to leave as little impact as possible?

[huttj509]

Yeah, I had some terrain issues as well. Lots of quicksaves.

And the rope physics are notoriously bad. As in hit the rope and go flying sky high away from it (oh, hi there lava realm). Save before jumping onto any rope.

[Terraoblivion]

Knocking people out is your friend until you get extremely good at the game and very willing to save scum. It's possible to avoid knocking people out in 2, but very hard even in the map where you're explicitly not permitted to, not sure about the first one. If you want to avoid knocking people out you either need to find alternative routes, wait until the guard moves away, move extremely slowly if they keep their back turned for long or use moss arrows to cushion your steps. Unlike later stealth games, your footsteps are loud and there is no sneaking mode to magically make that vanish. Moving on "loud" floors will make loud noises if you move quickly and if you aren't, you need a lot of time to cross them.

[Lost Demiurge]

I guess what I meant about the controls was the fact that you HAVE to pay so much attention to where you step, and you have limited windows to make mad dashes to a ladder, or a rope, etc... and the terrain can just... have other plans, and I feel like sometimes I get caught in the level geometry where it shouldn't, and climbing just doesn't feel smooth, as it it can be hard to hit the ladder the way you mean to, etc... the steps thing is likely just me not being used to not knowing exactly where my feet are

EDIT: will definitely give thief gold another chance, and attempt to slog through it, and I for one like the fact that the combat is unwieldy, as it shows the character isn't a fighter, but a thief, still confused about how I'm supposed to scout out a haunted mine with zombies breathing down my neck though, for not forcing combat, they seem to demand a reaction....

Well, the good thing about zombies is that if you run away and find a good hiding spot, they usually lose you. Or if you "kill" one temporarily, that gives you time to flee. Or, if you're creative, they can become a fun distraction...

Heh, I remember one spot in the Hammer prison where I got one to run into a roving Hammer Guard. While the two of them were fighting I had a clear run to explore his sector.

[Mx.Silver]

I started Thief Gold a few weeks ago (I'd bought it on GOG some time before but never gotten around to installing it) The only control problems I've had are jumping (why do devs keep putting it in First-person games?!) and that Garrett can be a bit temperamental about climbing up onto ledges and ropes. It can be a bit easy to get disoriented too.
Overall though, I've been enjoying it quite a lot. A lot of this is down to the level design, which is frequently really good, and how this contributes to the atmosphere. The mission where you go after the sword in particular here, especially if you go in blind.

Certain things I've found useful (playing on Hard, because I like having to get out of places again).
- Save Often. Garrett is a bit fragile, and there are a lot of missions where you can suffer fatal falls (again, perspective woes).
- Wear Headphones. Sound is absolutely vital to succeeding in Thief, and knowing what direction it's coming from is really handy.
- Don't Rush Things. The faster you move the more noise you make, and also the less time you spend concentrating on your surroundings, which you need to not least because of Garrett's noisy footwear.
- Stick to shadows where possible. You have water arrows, do not be afraid to use them.
- if you have to fight, ranged is usually the way to go (exception: the poison breathing lizard things whose name I've forgotten. If you're fighting one-on-one it helps to get up in melee to counter their ranged attack).

Also, don't be afraid to whack a few human enemies with your blackjack. Especially if they're patrolling an area you'll need to pass through a few times.


That's the prob with t1 that closet_skeleton mentioned.
Solution: Lots of holy water.


Fire Arrows work too, if you have them. Also note that Zombies don't generally chase you for very long and don't move too fast (they'll also prioritise attacking other living things if they're in range).

[Closet_Skeleton]

... you mean it's wrong to ninja dash when people turn their back?

Unless you're on carpets, yes. Any form of running creates noise.

If someone turns his back then you either hit him on the head, slowly creep past him at a distance or wait for him to leave.

You can run past someone and escape without him seeing you, but only if you leave the area while he searches every knook and crany.


I thought I was supposed to leave as little impact as possible?

'as possible' in Thief doesn't mean what it means in easier, playtested to death games.

Sometimes you screw up and either accept that or turn into a save scumming madman. Yahtzee did an article about how he has more fun in Thief if he accepts the fact that he might not complete a level with a very good score.

[Whoracle]

... you mean it's wrong to ninja dash when people turn their back? I thought I was supposed to leave as little impact as possible?

Yes, it is. You're supposed to either
a) find a route that isn't patrolled
b) knock out the patrols/guards in order to create such a route or
c) slooooooooooo*gulps for air*oooooooooowly creep through the shadows, so close to the enemies you could reach out and touch them, so close you can almost feel their smelly breath on your face and oh god if he takes one more step I'm screwed oh god oh god please don't turn around now no no no stay where you are THANK GOD he went through that door.

Take a guess which route I'm usually taking ;)

Crouch a lot, extinguish torches, move slowly (there's areason the game has three walking speeds). And maybe watch the LP I linked earlier, at least for the first two levels, after you've beaten them yourselves, and watch how he plays it. IIRC, he was quite competent.

Also, what the others have said holds true, especially in regards to the sound. Get good headphones, not just earbuds.

[Winterwind]

Also, just to clarify, zombies and other undead also rely on sight and hearing to spot you, just like everybody and everything else. And Garrett's stealth is quite superhuman - if the indicator goes completely black, it means the absolutely only way anybody is ever going to spot you is if they run into you (as in, physically touch you, not just get close) or if you make noise.

On the highest difficulty, one is usually not allowed to kill any humans at all and has a (very low) limit on how many humans one is allowed to knock out (for further clarification, in case it's not obvious: When people talk about "knocking out" in this thread, they mean getting behind somebody and hitting them with the blackjack. This instantly knocks the target unconscious without killing it; it doesn't work on non-humanoids and undead, and also doesn't work if the target has taken combat stance, i.e., has spotted you or at least suspects something is wrong.). And that's still quite doable. So, no, combat is most definitely not forced. :smallwink:

(though, sadly, if one knows how, combat is a much easier option than it should be. I've taken on three Hammerite knights at once, in the open, where all three could engage without getting into each other's way, and still slaughtered them all without taking any damage, just to see if I could; but playing that way is boring. Whoracle's c)-route for me all the way, please. :smalltongue:)

EDIT: Oh, and as for taking on zombies, as mentioned before Fire Arrows are another option besides Holy Water; one thing that wasn't mentioned yet though, I think, and which is rather relevant, is that for zombies, it's important where one hits them; if one hits them in that thin part in their lower body, where it's only the spine that keeps them together, they go down much faster than if one hits them elsewhere.)

[nhbdy]

stuff

well about the combat forcing I was referring to the lack of ability to deal with undead and monsters like I can with humans, and how zombies can seemingly activate without regard to my current visibility (how they act once up is another story, but if they activated due to me, they are likely in mauling range I find)

[Zen Master]

I spent so much time on Thief 1. And 2.

I mean it's a time consuming game. But I'm a spiteful kinda guy. So when I got mad at the guards, I'd take the time to eliminate ALL of them. Not kill them, oh no, that'd just be too good for 'em. No, I'd knock them cold, them pile them for their concerned wives to come find, when they didn't show up for supper.

And the Hammerist priests/knights/whatevers. Don't even get me started on those.

But play the game like that, it takes ... considerably longer than it really has to. Worth it tho. Little blighters, that'll teach 'em.

One thing I never got, btw. They magic/cyber/steampunk up his eye at some point, right? I mean, I'm sure there's mention of that - but I never saw it have any effect on game play. Did I just completely miss out?

[Terraoblivion]

It happens between the first and second game. In part that is to explain him having decent vision after losing an eye and in part it allowed for those balls that allow you to see stuff at a distance in 2.

[Winterwind]

well about the combat forcing I was referring to the lack of ability to deal with undead and monsters like I can with humans, and how zombies can seemingly activate without regard to my current visibility (how they act once up is another story, but if they activated due to me, they are likely in mauling range I find)If they aren't active yet, this is actually one of the (rather few) occasions where mad sprinting1 is useful - if you start running as soon as you hear the moan, you'll often get out of range before the zombie even activates. In places where there's enough space, just try not to walk over dead bodies, try to circumnavigate them as widely as possible. As for ones that are already active, or other creatures that are neither undead nor human, usually it's possible to sneak past those.

Always remember that if necessary, you can shoot an arrow into some direction to distract enemies with the noise it makes. Noise arrows are obviously better for this, but a regular arrow will do as well. This is just for emergencies, if you absolutely have no other way, as it will set enemies into combat stance, which is something you pretty much never want them to be in, as it greatly increases both their resilience and vigilance, but it's an option.

1 A little anecdote to illustrate other situations where sprinting may be useful, and my favourite moment in Thief to this day:
So I'm playing the first mission on highest difficulty (so, don't kill anyone, and you have to get out of the mansion again after getting the sceptre), and I got that sceptre and am on my way out... as I run straight into some guard and he spots me. I turn around and start running, promptly getting confused in spite of having played that level at least a dozen times by then, run some completely wrong way, and end up in a room with more soldiers. Wildly cursing (in real life - though I'm sure the things Garrett had to say about the situation in general and the player controlling him in particular at that very moment wasn't exactly all daisies and roses, either!), I twist around, run back, just manage to get back to the crossroads where I'd taken the wrong turn before the first guard I was fleeing from manages to cut me off - he was only mere steps away from blocking me - and run away, this time the correct way, with what at this point has got to be just about every single guard on the upper floor.

Now, I get this clever plan to, instead of taking the longer route via the stairs, to just get over to that gallery, where the upper floor oversees that swimming pool on the lower floor, and jump down from it into the water - this should give me enough distance from the guards to get away, I figure.
So, I run over to the gallery, jump over the railing and, with absolute, immaculate, superhuman, perfect precision land... exactly next to the swimming pool, on the cold hard floor (it wasn't even that tough of a jump, I just completely fumbled it :smallbiggrin:).

My life bar (which is greatly reduced on highest difficulty anyway) drops to a single heart.

I'm still staring at it in disbelief that I am actually still alive, when the guards appear up there on the gallery. And one of them has a bow.
So I go into a mad dash towards the safety on the tunnels without looking back once, only hearing the sounds of arrows hitting the ground behind me.

And yes, I did manage to get out. :smallbiggrin:

[Closet_Skeleton]

It happens between the first and second game. In part that is to explain him having decent vision after losing an eye and in part it allowed for those balls that allow you to see stuff at a distance in 2.

The mechanical eye also lets you zoom in. In Deadly Shadows this was improved by making the screen go black and white while zooming (yes, that's an advantage due to lighting). How his depth perception works if one of his eyes can't see colour I have no idea.

The way it clearly glows green no matter how well your in the shadows if you use third person mode in Deadly Shadows doesn't seem very useful but has no game effect.