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Blackdrop
2013-02-04, 02:30 PM
Well, since my case of permanent-free-time-itis doesn't seem to be going away any time soon, and I'm slowly going mad from not having anything to do, I might as well get this posted and work on it as a full-time thing. So, TO WORK!

So month-after-month and playtest-after-playtest, I find myself at a bit of impasse. On the one hand, I find myself completely enthralled by the premise of "D&D NEXT", to draw the best idea's from the history of the brand, into one single, unifying game. On the other hand, I find myself greatly disappointed by the execution of this vision being a lackluster and poorly-rewritten rehash of 3rd edition.

Hybrid d20 initially started as merely a thought exercise to pass the time at work: If I was a member of the 5e design team, how would I build the next version of D&D? How would I address the challenge of balancing magic-users and mundanes? Would I choose the more free-form style combat of 3e or would I keep the deep, tactical combat from 4e? A large number of specialized classes from 3rd edition, a return of the fighter/magic-user/thief class balance from the game of yore, or perhaps something based-off of the concept put forth by the Essentials books?

So, over the last 10 months or so, I've slowly been creating notes and ideas and building the framework for the game in my head, and I think that I've gotten enough of basics hashed out that I feel comfortable presenting them for general consumption, review and feedback. So without much further ado, I'd like to present you with the initial, rough draft of...

HD20

Blackdrop
2013-02-04, 02:31 PM
Well, dart to the board, what should I talk about first...hmmm.

Schools of Magic, the Magic Charge System and Magic in General

Well, what has to be one of the more talked about things about the upcoming edition is what to do about the "Spellcaster Problem", the actual or perceived overpowered nature of spellcasters in previous editions, specifically 3rd Edition. The arguments tend to boil down to two view-points; that the general power level of spellcasters is fine and other classes to be to be brought up to their level, or that spellcasters need to be thrown in the corner and beaten with the Nerf-bat until they learn their place. Now I'm all for empowering the mundane classes, and I'll discuss some plans for doing that further down the page, however, spellcasters do need to be reigned in a bit. 4th Edition tried leveling the playing field with universal AEDU system, but with all the complaints that the system received about classes playing the same (which I think were largely bubkis, but whadda gonna do?), it clearly wasn't the way people wanted the problem resolved. So what, do I plan to do to address this problem?

To start off, I think that the Schools of Magic need to be reorganized. With the current system (I'm using 3e as the "current system" since 4e largely removed the Schools) there's to much overlap between the schools and they're to poorly defined, with some either far to specific (Abjuration is just defensive spells), some are far to general (Conjuration) in comparison, and some having largely identical descriptions (Illusion and Enchantment). So first things first, we start by redefining the schools and removing some of the more problematic spells. The revised school list would be as follows:

Abjuration: Manipulation of Magic
Evocation- Manipulation of "Horizontal Elements" (Air, Earth, Fire, Water)
Illusion- Manipulation of the Mind
Invocation- Manipulation of "Vertical Elements" (Radiant, Necrotic, and Spirit/Soul Energy)
Transmutation- Manipulation of Matter


(Note: If something is in quotation marks and it's something you haven't heard before and it sounds idiotic, it probably is, and it won't be the final name or definition of something.)

Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment and Necromancy are gone, gored, and gutted, with their spells shuffled to other schools, relegated to class or monster features, switch into rituals or just outright removed. Originally, my plan was just to removed some of the more game-breaking spells from Divination and Enchantment, however it left those schools mostly barren, so need to fold the remaining spells into the other schools, then I noticed that Conjuration had a lot of spells that arguably fit better in other schools and things just kind of snowballed. Divination was probably the hardest hit, with most of its spells just straight up ret-goned. The remaining spells (mostly Detect Magic, Arcane Sight, spells along those lines) mostly got shifted over to the re-branded Abjuration School, with the Legend Lore type spells becoming rituals. Enchantment remains mostly intact, though it's been absorbed into Illusion. Conjuration was also torn to shreds. The minor distinction between Summoning and Calling is gone and the remaining concept split between Evocation and Invocation (with Evocation getting the Summon (X) elemental type spells and Invocation getting the Summon Planar ally spells), Invocation also gets the "Healing" subschool, Creation has been shifted over to Transmutation and Teleportation is more or less gone, with the iconic Teleport spells becoming rituals. Necromancy was pretty much just renamed and is still intact.

So, some of you are probably reading the last two paragraphs and going to yourselves, "Well this potentially interesting all, what, exactly does that have to do with re-balancing the classes?". For the most part? Not much. However, it's part of my goal of throttling back the all-encompassing versatility of magic.

Another one of my goals when approaching magic was to bring back some of the limitations and drawbacks of spellcasting. While the more ludicrous drawbacks ("You just cast a spell! Now make a fortitude check to see if you keel over!") probably won't be making a comeback, some of the minor ones will. Most higher level spells will generally make you fatigued and you'll also be seeing the re-emergence of casting times, particularly of the "Started casting on initiative count 4, finish casting on initiative count 6" variety [props to Navar100 (post 1086 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257952&page=37)) in the 5e discussion thread for giving me the idea]. Also, while the concept of sustaining a spell from turn-to-turn is still going to be a thing, it's not going to be a "sustain minor" thing. Keeping a spell going from turn after turn is not the easiest of things, it'll require a check and it'll consume a little bit more of your juice of Charge each turn?

Well, what's Charge? Essentially, the Magic Charge system, is more or less the same tried and true Spell Point system from Unearted Arcana, with one small difference. With the Spell Point System, you were still limited in the number of 0-Level spells you could cast. With Magic Charge system, as long as you have the juice to keep casting you can do just that. It's more or less an answer to one of the problems I've always had with Vancian magic. So, why is it called the Magic Charge system, instead of just calling Spell Points? Because it's not just for spells. Certain creatures (mostly fae) who aren't spellcasters will have a Charge in order to use their special abilities.


Classes and Kits

One of the other most debated topics concerning 5e is how classes should be structured. Once more the debate tends to be simplified down to two things (funny how that always seems to a happen): A few classes with a wide reaching focus or a larger selection of classes with more narrow focus. And to that I say: Is it too much to ask for both?

See, I'm assuming most people reading know this, back in the days of 2e, TSR released a concept called class kits. These kits allowed greater customization to the base classes by swapping or downplaying some of their features in exchange for new powers or abilities. We kind of saw something similar to a small degree with the idea of different builds with 4th edition or subclasses with the Essentials line.

Now my general idea with class was that each base class, whether it be Paladin, Rogue, Warlock, etc, be built around 1 or 2 Major class abilities (a Wizard's spells or Druids Wild Shape) and 1 or 3 Minor Class Abilities. Now for the base classes, these abilities wouldn't be all that strong or impressive, with good stuff be saved for the kits. For the people that don't like that, well, in my mind the base classes are really just for the unexceptional members of that class, the kits are the members who received additional training and are destined for great things. At the end of the day, D&D is supposed to be a Heroic Fantasy game, the rule should be that that the players are exceptional. The other reason why base classes are limited to the weaker versions of abilities is for the purposes of multi-classing.

Now I've got a general idea of the classes that I'll be including at start, so I'm going to list them here for now


Druid
Guardians of nature, wielders of primal magic, they are fabled to be able to change their shape into beasts
Major Abilities:
-Primal Magic: Can learn primal spells on druid's spell list from 1st to 2nd level
-Wild Shape: Can change shape into that of a preselected beast. Likely limited to either Bear, Boar, Cat, or Wolf. Bonuses are limited
Minor Abilities:
-None, likely to change

Shapeshifter
Major Changes:
-Replace Wild Shape with Shape Change: In addition to the above animals, can also select Hawk or Shark as a possible beast form. Freely select beast form. Eventually gains access to dire version of each beast form. Greater bonuses including stat increases and natural abilities when in beast form.
Totemist
Major Changes:
-Enhanced Primal Magic: Can learn primal spells on druid's spell list from 1st to 6th level.
-Natural Spell: Can learn to cast basic primal magic in their beast form.

Mage
Users of powerful arcane magic
Major Abilities:
-Arcane Magic: Can learn arcane spells on the mage's spell list from 0 to 3rd level (specialists can learn all 9 spell levels)
Minor abilities:
-None, likely to stay that way
Kits:

Alchemist- Transmutation and Potions
Magician- Illusions and Skill Monkey
Mystic- Invocations and Rituals
Warmage- Evocations and Armored Casting
Wizard- Abjuration... and something

Paladin
Knightly defenders of the faith, capable of smiting foes of their gods and blessing their allies.
Major Abilities:
-Smite: Can learn a variety of special attacks to enhance they're attacks.
-Blessings: A variety of powers to aid themselves or their allies. (Lay on hands, remove disease types powers)
Minor Abilities:
-Divine Strike: Can use Charisma instead of Strength to determine additional damage from attacks.

Crusader
Major Changes:
-Expanded Smites: Can use a greater variety of smites
-Reduced (Possibly no) Blessings
-Prescient Attack: Can use Wisdom instead of Dexterity for attack rolls.
Inquisitor
Major Changes:
-Revised Smites: Receives a different variety of smites, dealing mostly with Magic Charge (preventing spell use, sapping charge, etc)
-No Blessings
-Heretic Hunter: Gains a small cache of powers to deal with enemy magic users, including the ability to naturally detect magic and counterspell.
Templar
Major Changes:
-Expanded Blessings: Can use a greater variety of blessings
-No Smites
-Tanky-abilities

Priest

Acolyte
Cleric

Ranger

Beastmaster
Huntsman
Warden

Rogue

Assassin
Swashbuckler
Thief

Shaman

Medium
Seer

Warlock

Hexblade
Occultist

Warrior

Berserker
Champion
Skirmisher



List will be expanded upon at some point.


Skills, Perks and Feats



Skills
Skills are divided into two groups: Utility Skills and Weapon Skills.
Utility Skills consists of skills that are were on the traditional skill lists (Athletics, Spellcraft, Thievery), while Weapon Skills consists of the different groups of weapon (Axes, Heavy Blades, Spears)
Both groups use the same seven step system to determine competency in that skill (in ascending order):

Non-Proficient
Proficient
Novice
Adept
Expert
Mastery
Grand Mastery

You can also specialize into a certain aspect of a skill (for utility skills, ie. Jump for Athletics, or Disable Device for Thievery) or a particular weapon in a group (ie. War Axe for Axes or Scimitar for Heavy Blades)
You, however, have to specialize in a particular skill in order to train to Mastery and subsequently Grand Mastery
Each character can specialize into each individual skill once (exception being the Thief kit, who can specialize in Deception, Stealth, or Thievery twice)
You can choose only 2+Int modifier skills to specialize in.
All classes can advance to Mastery in any Utility Skill and all classes can advance to Novice in any Weapon Skill. Advancement to Adept and above for Weapon Skills and Grand Mastery for Utility Skills is handled on a class-by-class, and usually, kit-by-kit basis.
Haven't decided on whether or not do things the way 4e does skills (a list that you can choose X number of skills from) or just have a list of skills that you are Proficient in.


{table=head]Skill Name|Specializations|Classes (for GM)
Acrobatics|Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble|-|
Arcana|????|-
Athletics|Climb, Jump, Swim|-|
Deception|Bluff, Disguise, Forgery|Swashbuckler|
Dungeroneering|????|-|
Heal|????|-|
History|????|-|
Linguistics|Decipher Script, Speak Language|-|
Nature|????|Totemist|
Perception|Listen, Spot|-|
Persuasion|Diplomacy, Intimidate|Cleric|
Religion|????|Acolyte|
Spellcraft|Channeling, Concentration|-|
Stealth|Hide, Move Silently|Assassin|
Streetwise|????|-|
Survival|Foraging, Tracking|Huntsman|
Thievery|Disable Device, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand|Thief|
Wild Empathy|Handle Animal, Ride|Beastmaster[/table]

I haven't finished hashing out Weapon Groups yet, hence no list.

Perks and Feats

Perks are based on the level on training in your skills and expand on the things you already know how to do(Blind-fight would be a Perception perk, Combat Casting would be a Spellcraft perk), whilst feats would add to what you could do or improve your natural abilities (Skill Training or Toughness).
Some perks might require either; a certain level of training in a single skill, specialization in a skill (Blind-fight would require Adept Perception(Listen)), a certain level of training in multiple skills (Sniper would require you to be an Adept in Stealth and Missile Weapons), or any/all of the above (Precise Shot would require being an Expert in Missile Weapons and an Adept in Perception(Spot)).
A perk will never require a feat (besides the obvious Skill Training) and vice-versa.


Leveling


Leveling will use a 1-30 format.
I was planning on doing a modified version of 4e HP system with the values turned way the hell down, but since Yora brought it up, I've really started to lean towards a 2e styled system, so that's slightly up in the air at the moment.
Classes have 5 bonuses: Attack, Skill, Reflex, Fortitude, and Willpower.
Bonuses are not 1/2 level and are not the same for all groups
Attack Bonuses can be: +1 every 4 levels starting at level 2 (maximum +7), +1 every 3 levels (maximum +10), or +1 every 2 levels (maximum +15).
Skills Bonuses can be: +1 every 3 levels (maximum +10), or +1 every 2 levels (maximum +15), +2/+1 every 2 levels (maximum +23).



Combat


Action Economy consists of:
[list]
Standard Action
Move Action
Minor Action
Opportunity Action
Free Action

You can use a a Standard, Move or Minor Action once per round on your turn, 1 Opportunity Action per turn, and 1 Free Action per round.
You can also use a Full Round action that consumes all of your other actions for that turn. You can only use a full round action when you have not otherwise acted that round.
You have 3 defenses/saves (Reflex, Willpower and Fortitude).
AC is subsumed into Reflex, since it uses the same damn scores and bonuses anyway, so that Sacred Cow goes to slaughter.
Armor is instead DR/, with the exception of Shields which does add to your Reflex score.
Instead Strength for Attack and Damage of Melee attacks, and Dexterity for Ranged attacks, both will use Dexterity for Attack Rolls and Strength for Damage Rolls (with the exception of crossbows, which don't receive the strength bonus, but pierce DR however)

Blackdrop
2013-02-04, 02:32 PM
Reserved for talky-bits part 2!

Blackdrop
2013-02-04, 02:35 PM
Reserved for probable content, likely to be arranged in some kind of table format.

Also, feel free to post!

Yora
2013-02-04, 02:54 PM
Funny, I did the same thing earlier today.

I think one thing that needs being adressed is the skill system. The skills in 3.5e and PF are fine, but all this stuff with counting skill points is too fidgety. I think a good solution there is to simply have the skills as trained or untrained. A trained skill gets a bonus of +3. If you add full or half or no character level to that is a matter of personal taste, I would say.
Alternatively, you could also double or tripple train a skill to push that bonus to +3 or +9. I think AD&D or at least Myth & Magic did that with Nonweapon Proficiency Slots.

Another thing I like from AD&D is a cap on Hit Dice. I like the idea that characters only get up to 10 HD. Once they reach 11th level, every class only adds a fixed number of additional hp (Fighter +3, rogues and clerics +2, wizards +1).
You might or might not still get feats for levels above 10th, even though you don't get HD from them. This has some similarities to E10.

In a similar way, I think it might also be an interesting idea to apply Epic BAB and Epic Save Bonuses after 10th level. Once you reach 11th level, you no longer improve your BAB and saves from your class levels, but gain a straight +1 to BAB on every uneven level, and a straight +1 to all saves on every even level. That way the gaps don't keep on widening after 10th level.

Personally, I am also a huge proponent of cutting down on class features. Each class should have one or two core class features and leave it with that. There is no need at all to have something at every level, even if it's a silly +1 to saving throws against Traps, just so there isn't any gap in the Special colum for the class.
The less class feature players have to work with, the more likely they are to come up with practical mundane solutions, like getting out the ropes and shovels, or sneaking up in high grass.

Link to: Good things from 3.0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269170)

Zireael
2013-02-05, 09:34 AM
In my mechanics, I thought skill points are too fidgety, too, I just made skill levels instead

Grod_The_Giant
2013-02-05, 03:39 PM
Personally, I am also a huge proponent of cutting down on class features. Each class should have one or two core class features and leave it with that. There is no need at all to have something at every level, even if it's a silly +1 to saving throws against Traps, just so there isn't any gap in the Special colum for the class.
The less class feature players have to work with, the more likely they are to come up with practical mundane solutions, like getting out the ropes and shovels, or sneaking up in high grass.

While having a large number of class features can be confusing, especially if starting a game at higher levels/being disorganized, I think dead levels are far, far worse. There's nothing more disappointing than finally leveling up after a month or more of play and getting... +1 BAB.

Blackdrop
2013-02-05, 04:42 PM
I tend to agree when it comes to dead levels. I was actually thinking of adopting, and I know people love when CRPGs are brought up, something similar to what Fallout 3/New Vegas or Skyrim did, where you eithers get points every level to spend on raising your feats or skills or being able to pick perks based on the level of your skills.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-02-05, 04:51 PM
I tend to agree when it comes to dead levels. I was actually thinking of adopting, and I know people love when CRPGs are brought up, something similar to what Fallout 3/New Vegas or Skyrim did, where you eithers get points every level to spend on raising your feats or skills or being able to pick perks based on the level of your skills.

That could be cool. Are you going to have both perks and feats? And if so, how will they be different?

Blackdrop
2013-02-05, 05:18 PM
Perks are based of your skills and expand on the things you already know how to do(Blind-fight would be a Perception perk, Combat Casting would be a Spellcraft perk), whilst feats would add to what you could do or improve your natural abilities (Skill Training or Toughness).

Grod_The_Giant
2013-02-05, 05:21 PM
Right. Maybe trade off perks and feats? So you get skill points every level, a feat every odd level (so you get one at 1st), and a perk every even level?

Grinner
2013-02-05, 05:58 PM
A d20 variant called Modern20 used perks to great effect. I highly recommend looking over it if you get the chance.

Yora
2013-02-05, 06:01 PM
Star Wars Saga expanded on that.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-02-05, 06:25 PM
While having a large number of class features can be confusing, especially if starting a game at higher levels/being disorganized, I think dead levels are far, far worse. There's nothing more disappointing than finally leveling up after a month or more of play and getting... +1 BAB.

This is why I favor 3.5 revisions with fewer levels (10 or less) but with abilities at every level. You feel rewarded for leveling, but don't suffer 20+ ability bloat.

Blackdrop
2013-02-06, 07:24 PM
Alright, some skill info is up now, going to work on Leveling outline now. Sorry for the outline format instead of paragraphs, but I feel like I have railroad spike in my head at the moment.