Surviving the Cold-Iron Blues

[Palanan]

This is a DM-only thread, so my players should fade to grey. (And then leave.)



In our next episode, our very martial party will be going up against Something (or Somethings) with both fey and incorporeal characteristics. The party is fifth level, with no means of flight and not much spellcasting support. I'm trying to create a different and memorable encounter, but I'm having a little trouble with encounter design.

So, my questions:


1. If the fey is ordinarily vulnerable to cold iron, would it still be so while incorporeal? Or does incorporeality give it a free pass?

2. Lacking an easy magical recourse, what can the party do to survive? I want this to be tough and challenging, but not impossible.

[Diarmuid]

1) Incorporeal gives 50% miss chance.

If you actually succeed on the miss chance, you would still need your weapon to be cold iron to bypass the DR.

This assumes that whatever melding of the two types retains those types of abilities. If it's template stacking, check the templates to see what's retained or not. If it's DM fiat, it's up to you to decide if you think the DR and the Miss Chance is too much.

If the party doesnt have any Cold Iron, it's probably too much as the miss chance alone is going to negate rougly 50% of their "hits". Further reducing their hits' efficacy might be too much.

2) They can always run. Without the ability to generate "force" effects or use True Seeing, the party doesnt seem to have any way to bypass the 50% failure rate on attacks/spells.

[jindra34]

1) Incorporeal gives 50% miss chance.

If you actually succeed on the miss chance, you would still need your weapon to be cold iron to bypass the DR.

This assumes that whatever melding of the two types retains those types of abilities. If it's template stacking, check the templates to see what's retained or not. If it's DM fiat, it's up to you to decide if you think the DR and the Miss Chance is too much.

If the party doesnt have any Cold Iron, it's probably too much as the miss chance alone is going to negate rougly 50% of their "hits". Further reducing their hits' efficacy might be too much.

2) They can always run. Without the ability to generate "force" effects or use True Seeing, the party doesnt seem to have any way to bypass the 50% failure rate on attacks/spells.
Note that if its plain mundane stuff there is no chance of hitting incorporeal enemies. You need it to be magical in some way shape or form to get that 50% miss chance.

[Waker]

1. If the fey is ordinarily vulnerable to cold iron, would it still be so while incorporeal? Or does incorporeality give it a free pass?

2. Lacking an easy magical recourse, what can the party do to survive? I want this to be tough and challenging, but not impossible.[/INDENT]

1. The creature would retain the DR which could only be overcome by Cold Iron, however because of the incorporeality, it would only take damage from a magic attack. Thus in order to deal damage and avoid DR, a weapon would need to be magical and made of Cold Iron. Remember that even with a magic weapon or spell, there is still a 50% chance of missing, unless using a Force Effect or Ghost Touch weapon.

2. Lacking a magical attack, the party has very little chance of success. Were it Undead, the party could at least resort to Holy Water. Since this isn't the case, you'll either need to give the party access to some weapons which can hit him or something that can force him into a corporeal state.

[Menzath]

Huh limited spellcasting.. So no magic missles? Also double check how positive and negative energy attacks interact with incoporeal-ness, you may be suprised.

And wasn't it only magical weapons have 50% miss chance and mundane flat out miss? no books on me (@ work) so I can't double check all of this myself to get you book/page #'s.

If your party doesn't have access to the aformentioned in the right amounts you may want to re-think the incoporeal bit. And you could always just take a look at thier sheets for thier stats and during your "off time" run a mock battle with you playing both sides (so they are none the wiser).

[Deaxsa]

you could give them beads of force(or similar force effect items, maybe a wand of magic missiles?) directly before fighting the enemy, which they could use. or you could give something like buffed up dust of appearance which dimensionally anchors them. i did this right before making my players fight phase spiders and it worked pretty well(of course, the spiders had to re-appear to attack the party)

edit: you could also give them something absurd but fun, like Dimensionally anchoring shuriken or something equally ridiculous

[winter92]

As Diarmund notes, Incorporeal basically just means that things have a 50/50 chance of missing or acting normally. The way I read it, DR works normally, but would only come into effect on a hit; of course, Rule 0 outweighs this.

As for keeping your players from dying, they're going to have a pretty bad time without either magic or some help. If they don't have magic weapons, they'll never hit, so they'll just die or run. If they do, its basically just twice as hard a fight as without incorporeal because they'll miss half the time.

To make things easier, I see two options right away:
1. Give them some way to get past the incorporeal template: eyedrops of true seeing, weapon oil of ghost touch or some such thing would work. Alternatively, give them something they could throw at the fey that would temporarily render them corporeal.

2. Change up the Cold Iron effect you were asking about. Maybe say that since fey are weak to iron, having it pass through their incorporeal bodies still inflicts some damage to them?

At the very least, they could use some warning and cold iron magic weapons if you aren't handicapping the fight (maybe rule that since steel comes from iron their normal weapons work? :smalltongue:).

[Diarmuid]

I had indeed forgotten about the need for magical weapons to even get the 50/50.

If your party has no magic, cold-iron weapons...they're hosed.

If they have magic weapons...the attacks that do hit will hit for less due to DR making it a tough fight.

If they have magic, cold-iron weapons then it's 50/50 on their "hits".

If you give it low AC and low HP, that should help mitigate how bad it is. If the enemy also isnt putting out a ton of dmg, then again you're reducing the difficulty. Try to imagine how many attacks per round will hit the npc and how many attacks it will take to kill it. Then consider how much dmg it's doing. Then it's a simple comparison if the party can can outlast.

As was already mentioned, a neat effect might be something that causes them to be corporeal every few rounds. Then your party could act very defensively, or be doing whatever causes the effect,during the between rounds.

[Gavinfoxx]

Drop a +1 ghost touch cold iron Morningstar.

[Deadline]

Oils of Magic Weapon will work fine for making their weapons magic (if they aren't already). Also, scrolls of Ghost Touch Weapon will negate the 50% miss chance.

As a last ditch effort, wands of Magic Missile will work too.

[nedz]

If there's only one opponent then the action economy will help the party — though only wrt the ones who can effect it.
How many magical weapons do they have ?
If all the mundane characters have magic weapons then they will at least be in the fight — they will just be hitting half the time. DR will reduce the damage.

Does this encounter have to be resolved with combat ?

I wouldn't drop a ghost touch weapon — it's a bit obvious and railroadey. I would let them encounter the creature then withdraw and work out a means of solving the problem for themselves. I would allow them to acquiring magic weapons — but only if they seek them out. The same with Cold Iron and Ghost Touch weapons.

[Palanan]

Okay, I'm definitely hearing that this will be tricky at best.

Here's a question: is a weapon fitted with an augment crystal considered to be magical for the purposes of hitting something incorporeal? I don't see this specified on pp. 64 and 221 of the MIC, but I'd be inclined to go with "magical enough."




Originally Posted by Menzath
Also double check how positive and negative energy attacks interact with inco[r]poreal-ness, you may be suprised.

Um. How do they? Didn't see anything in the PHB or DMG.


Originally Posted by winter92
Alternatively, give them something they could throw at the fey that would temporarily render them corporeal.

Hm. Are there such items, or are you suggesting some sort of DM fiat?


Originally Posted by nedz
Does this encounter have to be resolved with combat ?

Ideally I'd love a resolution that involves clever thinking rather than combat. Not being terribly clever myself, so far I haven't come up with much.

:smallfrown:

.

[Diarmuid]

Re: augment crystals

Weapons have to be of a certain quality to have crystals attached to them. MW for least, +1 for leaser, and +3 for greater.

Just having an augment crystal does not inherently make a weapon magical.

[Psyren]

Ideally I'd love a resolution that involves clever thinking rather than combat. Not being terribly clever myself, so far I haven't come up with much.

:smallfrown:


Well, he's a Fey, right? It's not like he's a ghost or wraith. So maybe they can talk to it rather than fight. Or he could beat them down a bit and then demand they do something for him, maybe retrieve something. And on that sidequest they just so happen to stumble across something that can hurt their boss. Now they have the choice of going along with the mission or trying to turn the tables in some way, either immediately or after they acquire his macguffin. And even if they succeed, keeping the item could have consequences of its own...

[Deaxsa]

Hm. Are there such items, or are you suggesting some sort of DM fiat?

.

Incorporeal Binding Weapons, DMG2, page 260

[Gavinfoxx]

Have the encounter start as belligerent rather than hostile.

"Get off of my land!"

or

"You must provide a gift to pass!"

or whatever... and give anyone with Knowledge Nature trained and a positive int, the info, 'Uh, this guy might need specialized equipment to affect at all. If you fight him without the right tools, you might not be able to do anything'.

Give anyone with a decent Sense Motive mod, 'This guy might be over your head to take in a straight fight... but he seems like actually fighting you might be somewhat annoying to him to do'.

Give anyone with Spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana trained, 'There seems to be a whole lot of ambient effects that imply that this guy is very innately magical, and magically powerful... what that means, you'd need to see him in action to do'.

[rot42]

Incorporeal Binding Weapons, DMG2, page 260

fify, good find :).

Complete Scoundrel 110 has Ferrous Aqua pellets that are basically holy water vs. fey. I could easily see houseruling that it interacts with incorporeality the same way as holy water (it gets the miss chance vs. incorporeal creatures vulnerable to the damage despite being non-magical, iirc).

[Phelix-Mu]

Have the encounter start as belligerent rather than hostile.

or whatever... and give anyone with Knowledge Nature trained and a positive int, the info, 'Uh, this guy might need specialized equipment to affect at all. If you fight him without the right tools, you might not be able to do anything'.

Give anyone with a decent Sense Motive mod, 'This guy might be over your head to take in a straight fight... but he seems like actually fighting you might be somewhat annoying to him to do'.

Give anyone with Spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana trained, 'There seems to be a whole lot of ambient effects that imply that this guy is very innately magical, and magically powerful... what that means, you'd need to see him in action to do'.

Agreeing on the basic premise of not sending the players into some kind of incorporeal ambush without an idea of what they are going to find inside the cave or w/e. Wandering around fighting blindly is considered unwise specifically because to the existence of opponents that can't be beaten without prep, like this one.

Previous contact with incorporeal is a good way to give players some idea of the danger and how to proceed. If the players are very competent and play characters that are prone to in-combat problem solving, then I guess it's not a 100% run-or-die, but without magic it is close enough that the difference is negligible.

Consider, if you haven't already, making this encounter plot-heavy. Instead of just running into the beasty, have encounter hooks that reveal monster abilities, like the PTSD survivor of a defeated party sitting by the fire in the inn, mumbling to himself about "can't hit it, can't hit it..." and the like. A short bit of research to discover the special form of magic circle v w/e to trap the creature (maybe a touch of cold iron filings in the substance for painting the diagram for the trap version of the spell), a little quest to uncover the backstory of the creature, prep-time, the encounter itself. Specially brewed bad guys or monsters deserve some limelight.

Otherwise sounds cool. I'm a big fan of custom fey monsters, the creature type sees little action in a lot of campaigns, especially for a type with such rich irl mythological basis.

[Palanan]

Okay, thanks to everyone for the input and perspective so far. Still trying to figure how to work this, since I'm thinking of using fey animals which can't be reasoned with.

Anyone know about the idea of using positive energy somehow? One of the characters has Sacred Boost, which charges an area with latent positive energy. Trying to figure if that could be used for something.


Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
Previous contact with incorporeal is a good way to give players some idea of the danger and how to proceed. If the players are very competent and play characters that are prone to in-combat problem solving, then I guess it's not a 100% run-or-die....

I have one player who's excellent at this, and his character has dealt with ghosts before. Unfortunately, he used all his Oil of Magic Weapon on the last ghost, so he's on bingo for enchanted weapons. All he has now are the augment crystals.


Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
Consider, if you haven't already, making this encounter plot-heavy.

I have indeed. The encounter stems from their situation: on a mountainous island, trying to reach an ancient holy site. The fey animals are there to defend the holy site. I'd love to come up with a plot-based solution, especially something the players can reason out for themselves.

[Menzath]

Sorry about the slow response time (Still @ work). As mentioned no books on me, you may have to check incoporeal in the MM or it may be under positive/negative energy effects, but the point being they effect things on the ethereal plane without miss chance except standerd concealment/invisibility and such.

But as I said I am at work and do not have sources available to verify this.
If someone could please check to make sure this is true I would apperciate.

[nedz]

Okay, I'm definitely hearing that this will be tricky at best.
...
Ideally I'd love a resolution that involves clever thinking rather than combat. Not being terribly clever myself, so far I haven't come up with much.


You don't have to come up with the solution — your players do.

I see nothing wrong in this encounter provided the PCs can run away. You have to give them challenges so that they can be creative in their problem solving.

[tyckspoon]

Sorry about the slow response time (Still @ work). As mentioned no books on me, you may have to check incoporeal in the MM or it may be under positive/negative energy effects, but the point being they effect things on the ethereal plane without miss chance except standerd concealment/invisibility and such.

It's under the info for the Incorporeal subtype. Fairly obscure bit of rule, that. (Note that it doesn't extend to Ethereal things. Incorporeals are merely insubstantial, but they are still present. Ethereal beings are on an entirely different plane, and only interact with force effects, Abjurations, and other Ethereal things.)


The fey animals are there to defend the holy site.

Fey, ghosts, and guardians almost always have one thing that shows up a lot in their respective stories- there's a way to pacify them. Perhaps the players need to give a passphrase in a long-dead language; other discoveries in the area of the holy site may help them figure out what it is and how to say it correctly. Maybe they need to wear an appropriate holy symbol and/or perform the correct ritual actions while approaching. Perhaps it's as simple as not *trying* to fight, and all they need do to quiet the guardians is to shed their weapons and armor and approach in peace. Could be the animals are restricted from a certain distance around the site, so the party just needs to flat out run past them (if they're lucky, maybe they'll find something that will let them pass back out safely or at least fight effectively while they're inside.) Or maybe it's something more feyish in application, and the 'password' involves leaving a gold coin in the stream over *there* and then going and doing a dance in the ring of stones over *there*.. but not that other one over *here*, because that one belongs to the Unseelie and they'll just eat you.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by tyckspoon
Perhaps it's as simple as not *trying* to fight, and all they need do to quiet the guardians is to shed their weapons and armor and approach in peace.

You are a genius. It's perfect.

...And probably the last thing the party would ever think of.

:smallamused:


Originally Posted by tyckspoon
It's under the info for the Incorporeal subtype. Fairly obscure bit of rule, that.

I did find that in the MM Glossary, after Menzath suggested it, but the entry doesn't specify how positive energy would damage something incorporeal. It's moot if you assume the incorporeal target is undead...but not if it's anything else.

So, how could positive energy harm an incorporeal fey creature? Is there a way?

.

[Psyren]

So, how could positive energy harm an incorporeal fey creature? Is there a way?

.

Why do you keep doing the white period at the end? :smallconfused:

Anyway, positive energy is no different than any other element, like fire. Unless a creature type specifically says it interacts with positive energy in some way (e.g. Deathless) then you would treat it like any other typed damage. Positive energy damage hurts living creatures just like negative energy damage does. (As an example - Bolt of Glory (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/boltOfGlory.htm) would deal the same damage to a fey that it would to a construct.)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
Positive energy damage hurts living creatures just like negative energy damage does.

...Huh. Did not know that. I'm used to thinking of positive energy in the healing context.

By the same token, then, someone who channels it to heal wouldn't be able to use it to cause damage, correct? At least, not to living creatures?

[Psyren]

...Huh. Did not know that. I'm used to thinking of positive energy in the healing context.

By the same token, then, someone who channels it to heal wouldn't be able to use it to cause damage, correct? At least, not to living creatures?

If you're channeling it to heal, you're not damaging anything. The exception are undead creatures, who specifically take damage from PE healing.

[Palanan]

I'm with you that far. What I'm not sure about is whether a NG cleric, say, could use positive energy to fry someone instead of healing them.

This "positive energy damage" thing is a new concept for me. :smallconfused:

[Keld Denar]

Hm. Are there such items, or are you suggesting some sort of DM fiat?

Ghost Trap is a spell in SpC that turns an incorporeal creature corporeal for the duration. Its a 6th or 7th level spell, but a single use item given by a crazy old shaman or found in an abandoned cache or such might be good, along with some non-magical simple cold iron weapons. Some kind of gem-like item. Use a Glitterstone from the MIC as an example. Just toss it, and anything in the area gets corporealiated.

[tyckspoon]

I'm with you that far. What I'm not sure about is whether a NG cleric, say, could use positive energy to fry someone instead of healing them.

This "positive energy damage" thing is a new concept for me. :smallconfused:

No, not unless he had a spell that did so (like the mentioned Bolt of Glory.) Positive energy damage is a rather weird form and doesn't show up much; most positive energy using spells specifically do healing. In this specific case, tho, he could prep an Inflict spell or other negative-energy based spell and use it without miss chance as well, since the Incorporeal beings he is dealing with aren't actually Undead and can take harm from negative energy.