DM needs help

[Hadesman]

So one of my players are playing a homebrew class called legionary, basing the template on paladin, with a couple adjustments: +2 on spear attack rolls along with his other attack bonuses, -2 on any other weapon but spear, +8 health per level, unable to ride mounts, unable to cast any spells but detect chaos, and dies if he goes below 0 hp. His AC's 23. So far he's killed almost all the mobs in the adventure I made, and the rest of the players are complaining that his too OP. He's kind of given a lot of thought to this, and has given up quite a lot of bonuses for just 2 bonuses. What should I do? Do I make him tweak even more, or tell the other players to "step up their game." Keep in mind that I've told my players that that they too can tweak their characters, and I will determine if they're fair. Any one of my concerns is that the mobs that I throw at him can't even dent him, because his AC is so high. What do I do?...

Generation 8

http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/26.jpg

[Yora]

+2 to attack is nothing for a paladin. Paladins are very weak and even +2 to attack doesn't change that at all. +8 hit points per level is a LOT, but that doesn't help with killing enemies.

I can only assume the other characters are rediculously weak.

[Deaxsa]

So one of my players are playing a homebrew class called legionary, basing the template on paladin, with a couple adjustments: +2 on spear attack rolls, -2 on any other weapon but spear, +8 health per level, unable to ride mounts, unable to cast any spells but detect chaos, and dies if he goes below 0 hp. His AC's 23. So far he's killed almost all the mobs in the adventure I made, and the rest of the players are complaining that his too OP. He's kind of given a lot of thought to this, and has given up quite a lot of bonuses for just 2 bonuses. What should I do? Do I make him tweak even more, or tell the other players to "step up their game." Keep in mind that I've told my players that that they too can tweak their characters, and I will determine if they're fair. Any one of my concerns is that the mobs that I throw at him can't even dent him, because his AC is so high. What do I do?...

you talk to him about he's overpowered, you made a mistake allowing this, and that you need to nerf him. you ask him what he wants most, and after some time, you come up with something that's balanced and that you can agree on. if you can't agree on anything, you tell him to reroll. Ideally, you'll have some objective input from the other players during this discussion.

as far as making him NOT shine goes, make him fight something that uses touch attacks, ranged or melee. seriously. they are NOT going to miss, if he's tanky because he's wearing armor and has a shield. alternatively, put him on the spot when it's not his strength. for instance, make him do the diplomacy at some point. make him the only option in a jousting tournament that the party enters. make him the guy who has to find a way through a couple locks.

i'd like to make a point that if everybody is optimizing the same, and this guy is just a smarter player, talk to him and ask him to help his friends think more creatively. until they start to do so, treat encounter at a bit below his level, but above theirs. you should NEVER punish a player for trying something intelligent, unless you absolutely have to (like the rogue trying to assassinate/seriously injure the enemy boss with a sneak attack, only to find out that the boss has uncanny dodge.)

if it's actually the other players that are the problem (hopelessly unoptimized), walk them through what they need to do to make a character of the same optimization level as the legionnaire. and then let them remake their character, but be EXTREMELY strict about it: make them stick to the same class (unless they're playing commoners or something), make them specialize/prohibit the same schools, basically show them where they messed up, and then let them change the things they messed up, but NOT the things they didn't mess up. if they continue to mess up, show them the hard way. In fact, i'm all for killing characters that should not live. a Twf melee wizard should NOT live past 3rd level. a fighter who gets item creation feats so he can make his own magic items SHOULD have loads of trouble. if they're doing it wrong, they should not survive. don't cater to them THAT much.

[Feralventas]

The system has enough options available that he should have been able to achieve his character concept without needing to craft his own class for it.

+8 HP per level as a CLASS FEATURE or by way of normal bonuses of Constitution and such?

What kind of bonuses does he have to AC? Touch attacks ignore a lot of armor bonus. Catching him off guard should also remove Dex unless he's granted himself Uncanny Dodge in addition to the rest of this.

All it seems like he's really done is warped the numbers of his class rather than actually making any significant or meaningful changes to a regular paladin. I would advise directing him to the Crusader, or to take a Paladin and multi-class out of it into Fighter and then some other holy, non-casting PrC.

[Eugenides]

What do you do? Well, if you want to dent him, try someone throwing vials of acid/alchemist's fire. Won't do a ton of damage, but it's a touch attack, so his AC is gonna plummet I'm pretty certain. Other than that, mages using Magic missile, or save-or-sucks like color spray/grease.

Or you could tell the party to step up their game. Honestly, he won't be top of the pack for much longer, and it's really not that hard to get on par with a beatstick.

[limejuicepowder]

What level is the party? What are the other player's character classes?

I can give some general advice, but it'll be better if we have more info. Still though, if his class is "paladin" with the above changes, he is still only t4 at best. He sounds like a great tank, but that doesn't mean he's great at everything. Basically, you need to design some encounters that don't directly play to the 1 or 2 things this character can do well. High armor, high hit points, and decent damage means he'll mow down legions of weaker enemies, enemies that would overwhelm other character types. Realize that this is OK - that is exactly what a tank should do. However, try to work in the following to give some other people time in the spotlight

-I'm gonna guess that his touch AC is poor. Have an enemy with a low attack bonus touch attack. It'll still be able to hit the tank guy, but the high dex rogue types will generally avoid it. Now, they are the tanks.

-Spears are at best 1-use throwing weapons. Have the party fight archers that are shooting from cover. Now the heavily armored guy has a hard time getting to the archers while the ranged characters/lightly armored ones can do their thing more efficiently.

-Attacked from multiple sides. He can only be in one place at a time.

-Have a spell caster BFC him. Paladins usually have good saves, but that won't stop a caster. Things like Shivering Touch, Kelpstrand, Ray of Enfeeblement, and Entangling Exhalation don't offer a save and they will put a serious crimp in his style.

-Finally, let him do his job: have the party fight a Big Dumb Brute (ogre, giant, ettin, etc.). He tanks it while the party delivers the kill. There will be much rejoicing.

[ksbsnowowl]

What level are the players?

+8 HP per level is ridiculous. Though it doesn't play directly to his ability to take things down, it allows him to do it longer without fear of death.

My honest opinion? Tell the player to play a normal paladin; you are sorry that you allowed him to play something unbalanced, and you have learned that you should just use the game as published until you have more DM experience.

[Alienist]

What level are the players?

+8 HP per level is ridiculous. Though it doesn't play directly to his ability to take things down, it allows him to do it longer without fear of death.

My honest opinion? Tell the player to play a normal paladin; you are sorry that you allowed him to play something unbalanced, and you have learned that you should just use the game as published until you have more DM experience.

I don't see that as a good option. Normal paladins are very weak. He doesn't even break even on the hit-point thing until level 3. A better way of doing it might have been instead of giving lots of bonus hp, to let him remain conscious and fight on after getting below 0 hp.

There are already ways of doing that in the system, but I'd suggest giving him a progression.

E.g.

Step 1: Is disabled and exhausted instead of unconscious while at or below 0 hit points. Dies at -Con.
Step 2: Is disabled and fatigued instead of unconscious while at or below 0 hit points. Dies at -Con.
Step 3: Is disabled and fatigued instead of unconscious while at or below 0 hit points. Becomes unconscious at -Con. Dies at -2xCon.
Step 4: Is staggered and fatigued instead of unconscious while at or below 0 hit points. Becomes unconscious at -Con. Dies at -2xCon.
Step 5: Is staggered instead of unconscious while at or below 0 hit points. Becomes unconscious at -Con. Dies at -2xCon.
Step 6: Is staggered instead of unconscious while at or below 0 hit points. Becomes unconscious at -Con. Dies at -2xCon.
Step 7: Is staggered instead of unconscious while at or below 0 hit points. Becomes unconscious at -2xCon. Dies at -3xCon.

If you do that at odd levels, it gives you a reason to take the class all the way to level 13.

Give him (legionary related only) bonus feats at every second level, like a fighter.

[Noctani]

I don't think his request is completely unreasonable.

However, I would have scaled it and I would have made it comparable to his constitution also giving him a better fortitude save.

level 1 +6 enhacement bonus to constitution
level 5 +8
level 8 +12
level 11 +16

Making it an enhancement bonus gives other players a chance to use spells or magical items to benefit, while the paladin cannot.

Plus 8hp/lvl is like having a whole another class lvl. How would you feel as another player at level 2? The dwarven paladin 50hp, I have 10. And being unconscious doesn't really matter too terribly much. Like most games, if players actually start dropping and it's a possible wipe anyway unless it's not lethal damage.

If you figure an average hit dice is a D8 4.5hp
That's almost like giving him two extra hit dice at lvl 1 without the con bonus
The average hit die for a wizard is 2.5 and barbarian 6.5

I would scale it.

[Yora]

I don't see how even the modified class could be strong in any way. The problem must almost certainly be with the other characters.

[Eldariel]

Could also have a thing or two to do with his items, the things you're throwing at him or whatever.

Fundamentally tho, +2 to spears is basically a Super Weapon Specialization which does matter quite a bit level 1-2. +8 health/level is just weird - equivalent to having 16 points higher Constitution than normal.

Neither is a real problem but they're just weird abilities. Sounds like he just wanted a Fighter; why is he even a Paladin and then gave up all the Paladin-abilities and got Fighter-like abilities instead?


Anyways, yeah, the reasons he's "OP" probably have more to do with the other characters, the enemies or magic items. Or ridiculous dice luck.

[lunar2]

as has been stated. he's not too powerful. in fact, he probably gave up more than he got, losing his spellcasting (even pally casting is very useful if optimized properly).

[Elycium]

I don't see how even the modified class could be strong in any way. The problem must almost certainly be with the other characters.

To tell you the truth, I tough the same.
And at the same time, is funny how they ignored you.

[Gildedragon]

Knowing the party level and make-up is crucial for well informed advice.
Overall the dying at 0 but +8 hp/level suffers from being too powerful and not powerful enough at the same time. Dying at 0 is either a non-penalty or an excessively harsh one. Consider that the player is giving up essentially 10 HP, but HP they can do nothing with. A flat +8 HP bonus would be better on ameliorating the power discrepancy, but its benefit is less useful later on.

Overall I'd talk with the player, looking at crusader, fighter, paladin and knight and their ACFs. With so few spells examine more balanced class features.

As the spear +2/-2 it's feat equivalent; don't sweat it too much.

[ahenobarbi]

I agree with Yora

I don't see how even the modified class could be strong in any way. The problem must almost certainly be with the other characters.


+2 on spear attack rolls along with his other attack bonuses, -2 on any other weapon but spear
No big deal. Barbarian gets +2 to hit and damage for raging.


+8 health per level

Nice to survive but doesn't make you better at killing enemies.


unable to ride mounts, unable to cast any spells but detect chaos

That hurts. Spells are good, paladins can be good with mount.


and dies if he goes below 0 hp

So actually has less HP at level 1...


His AC's 23.

How? What level it is? Does the class matter here at all?


Generation 8
What?

[Feralventas]

While "adding more to the character's numbers" doesn't make them more powerful in the traditional sense of 3.5 (based on having options and tools rather than raw crunch power), it is still power in the sense of artificial difficulty.

For example, let's say we have a simple monster that isn't all that bright and doesn't have magical talents. The party is mostly martial characters, so that won't be a major issue for the creature unless the party succeeds in out-thinking it and using other circumstantial effects to their advantage. However, because of the number of players in the party, the creature will hardly last one round.

SO, to solve this, we use Artificial difficult, and raise the creatures HP count, give it a minor bonus To Hit, and there we go. THe creature will survive for three to five rounds, have a pretty good shot of damaging the PC's with it's natural attacks (full attacks or cleave) and still provide the same level of Challenge as it did before, while clearly not the base creature from the book.



This is what the player has done with this "homebrew". They've made something that is Artificially more powerful, simply by crunching the numbers to be higher, but not Realistically more powerful because they haven't Changed anything but the numbers at work.


However, in the case of a Player, they've made the character able to take far more abuse than the other PC's. If you're operating at a D10HD+8 from class alone, potentially reaching D10+12 each level easily at low levels, you're going to be able to handle a Lot of damage, walk right through appropriate encounters of AOE, Breath Weapon, and AOO fields because you simply don't give a damn. Having 23AC at low levels likewise means that this character isn't going to get hit very often in the first place, let alone care if he Does take damage.

So, if you match that artificial growth in "power", you are then crunching the numbers (but again, not the challenge) to the party who are still on the regular challenge rating system without these augmentations which leaves them at a sever numerical disadvantage, because they are less "powerful" than the enemies you're crafting and the player's homebrew, simply because your player wanted to use bigger numbers rather than figure out how the game worked.

Point out the Crusader in the Tome of Battle and there should be plenty to work with. If he doesn't want supernatural effects, just stick with Iron Heart and White Raven while keeping the crusader fluff.

[ahenobarbi]

While "adding more to the character's numbers" doesn't make them more powerful in the traditional sense of 3.5 (based on having options and tools rather than raw crunch power), it is still power in the sense of artificial difficulty.

But it doesn't sound like class even gave him better numbers. Sounds like a simple PHB Half-orc Barbarian or fighter would have the same or better numbers.

[Feralventas]

But it doesn't sound like class even gave him better numbers. Sounds like a simple PHB Half-orc Barbarian or fighter would have the same or better numbers.

1d10+8(Class feature)+4(Constitution)

22HP at 1st level.
Assuming average, 5 and 6 at 2nd and 3rd, that's
21(dice)+24(class feature)+12(Con score) for a total of 57HP at 3rd level.
A barbarian with 20con would rage up to 24, so
3d12 (23)+7 con (21) coming out to a conditional 44 that will drop down to 38 if knocked out or struck outside of a combat situation. Meanwhile, the Barbarian also lacks heavy armor options since some of it's class features are based on medium-or-less armor.

And since the homebrew is "Paladin minus spells" it would still have Lay on Hands to suppliment that HP even if it did drop dangerously, as well as good saves all around via Divine Grace.

If the party has a Rogue, or a mid-or-less CharOp 'caster, they will get smashed if they are caught in an attack aimed or near the PC in question.

[andromax]

Im guessing the +8 HP per level means d8 HD and maxed.. it's the only logical explaination.

The +2 to attacks with spears is nothing and should not be nerfed.

Look at the rest of the party.

[ahenobarbi]

1d10+8(Class feature)+4(Constitution)

22HP at 1st level.
Assuming average, 5 and 6 at 2nd and 3rd, that's
21(dice)+24(class feature)+12(Con score) for a total of 57HP at 3rd level.
A barbarian with 20con would rage up to 24, so
3d12 (23)+7 con (21) coming out to a conditional 44 that will drop down to 38 if knocked out or struck outside of a combat situation. Meanwhile, the Barbarian also lacks heavy armor options since some of it's class features are based on medium-or-less armor.

You forgot that barb dies at -10 but the homebrew pally dies at 0. So Barb has 54/48 HP to death while pally has 57 HP to death. Slightly better.

Sure it will get nice defenses (heavy armor, much HP, good saves) but that wasn't reason people were complaining. They were complaining because the character apparently had offense much better than anyone else. And only thing helping offense there is +2 to hit (and with not ). Barbarian dip would give you something better.

So I think it's safe to assume other characters are lacking in offense.

[Feralventas]

You forgot that barb dies at -10 but the homebrew pally dies at 0. So Barb has 54/48 HP to death while pally has 57 HP to death. Slightly better.

Sure it will get nice defenses (heavy armor, much HP, good saves) but that wasn't reason people were complaining. They were complaining because the character apparently had offense much better than anyone else. And only thing helping offense there is +2 to hit (and with not ). Barbarian dip would give you something better.

So I think it's safe to assume other characters are lacking in offense.

Being at -1 or lower is still being taken out of the fight. It's more of a risk/reward consideration than an actual bonus that the Barbarian can continue after being put down if the party succeeds.

I do agree that the party is probably lacking in firepower if a +2 to hit seems like a big difference.