(PF) Tucker's...Goblins?

[Ailowynn]

I'm writing up a dungeon delve right now, and I have had a wickedly interesting idea: Tucker's Goblins. Not Kobolds...Goblins.

Why? Well...first off, Pathfinder has awesome goblins. Wickedly devilish fellows. And secondly, because of a certain DM that shall remain nameless, my group and I absolutely hate all kobolds. They are the worst kind of people.

So, playgrounders, I ask you: how would you go about building Tucker's Goblins, as it were, and the dungeon they are in? I'm okay with them having class levels. The group is around level 10, so the gobos can be as high level as needed but hopefully should be as low level as possibly possible.

[ngilop]

"tucker's kobolds were not about high level kobolds running around wiht equivalent level powers


it was about a DM hwo built a kobold 'stronghold' with teh entrappings thereof and played kobolds to their strengths

hit and run or mostly hide and hit and traps.. lots and lots of traps.


I could be wrong baout goblins in PF, but arent they basically chatoic stupid' to use the popular term?

anywyas all you have to do is make the goblins fight smart.

thats it. no need to make 15th level magus goblins or go all high optimization omnificer on your players.

Just play the goblins very intelligently and make them do actual intelligent and ;wickedly devilish' tactics.

[GrimoireM]

Varying flavors of Alchemist 1-5 might be what you're looking for here. The class offers plenty of gold fuel for amassing all of the traps you need, interposed with sparsely set remote bombs, platoons armed with alchemical items, and any mutated denizens the goblins could get their hands on or their extracts could convert them into.

[Eugenides]

ngilop has the right of it. A quick google search finds you this (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/) story about said kobolds.

And suddenly you realize: this is smart playing. Kobolds, on their own, don't offer much challenge in melee. A wizard with a quarter staff can mess them up in one turn. So the DM said to himself: what do kobolds excel at?

Answers: Ambushes, ranged, magic, group tactics. So you light the damn hallway on fire, and make it generally difficult to close with them. You honest-to-goodness put the PC's in a situation where they've got a ticking clock, and there's no way they can beat the clock if they fight you. The ONLY option the PC's had was to take the damage and run. If they turned and fought, they were dead.

On the other hand, you need to give them an out. Basically, it's a balance between death trap and incredibly dangerous.

Additional thoughts: I looked them up in the 3.5 MM (yes I know, I don't actually play PF, but this is applicable.) The combat section says:

Being bullied by bigger, stronger creatures has taught goblins to exploit what few advantages they have: sheer numbers and malicious ingenuity. The concept of a fair fight is meaningless in their society. They favor ambushes, overwhelming odds, dirty tricks, and any other edge they can devise.

Also of note are Hobgoblins:

These creatures have a strong grasp of strategy and tactics and are capable of carrying out sophisticated battle plans. Under the leadership of a skilled strategist or tactician, their discipline can prove a deciding factor. So perhaps throw a couple of these as leaders/elite warriors to go toe-to toe with the PC's.

[doc neon]

As I understand it, the intimidating thing about Tucker's Kobolds is that they don't play by the rules. They don't stand in isolated rooms, waiting for the PCs to kick down the door. Perhaps they've built a 30 foot wall, underground, which the PCs have to scale (or fly over, I suppose.) At the top, they're throwing down acid and alchemist's fire, or even just rocks, in great enough numbers to force a lot of Climb checks. Through murder holes in the wall, they're shooting arrows, or just sticking quarterstaffs through to knock the PCs down. Once the PCs are near the top, the kobolds stop shooting... but once they scale the wall, they see that it's actually a dam, and it's full of lit explosives.

For a 10th level party, there'll probably be a fairly simple way to get by it, though.

[Eugenides]

Also I just found this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270387) thread. WHAT. Release a squad of these guys into the middle of the team. Have them target your spellcasters.

[Ailowynn]

I know what Tucker's kobolds are, I'm looking for build advice. I know the point is play smart, but...will it really work against characters of tenth level? How high level should the gobos be?

[haplessvictim]

will it really work against characters of tenth level? How high level should the gobos be?

There are a couple of ways to approach this as I see it: playing fair and playing nasty.

Playing fair: Try to imagine what a group of goblins (fecund, short-lived, reckless, homicidal pyromaniacs) would do to fortify their home give reasonable resources. "Reasonable" here meaning years of planning and building, and as much wood, stone, weapons, poisons and alechemical substances as they need. What would the door to their lair be like? What would they do if they saw intruders? What would they do if invisible intruders appears in their lair? What animals do they have guarding their lair? Have they bribed local giants to protect them? And so forth. I think you could make a fortress that was nigh-impregnable for a party of 10th level characters this way.

Playing nasty: Do all the above. Plus, you know as the DM exactly what your players' characters are capable of (and what their weaknesses are), so make sure the goblins can specifically counter their advantages and prey on their disadvantages. Someone has a ring of invisibility? Then there are traps which dump flour (or a mixture of flour and yellow mold..) on characters, rendering them visible (and worse). They're resistant to fire? Pits of acid. They can fly? Pet gargoyles and swarms of stirges, etc.

I would recommend, in general, reading a bit about medieval fortifications and protective measures. People did some eeeevil stuff back in the day that would fit right in a smart goblin's bag of tricks. (Boiling pitch, pits of oil lit on fire after people fall in them, rocks dropped through murder-holes, etc.)

[ngilop]

I know what Tucker's kobolds are, I'm looking for build advice. I know the point is play smart, but...will it really work against characters of tenth level? How high level should the gobos be?

you can just take base what does pathfinder call it.. bestiary? sttistic goblins and have them be 'tuckers' goblins

You seem to be much less into doing your own version of tucker's kobolds than making goblins that can go toe-to-toe with 10th level PCs.

just make a battalion of 10th level goblins, make 1 druid, 3 rouges, 1 sorcerer, 2 alchemists, 1 bard, a cleric, and 3 barbarians.

then you have your anit- PC goblin party.

[Slipperychicken]

"These kobolds were just regular kobolds, with 1-4 hp and all that, but they were mean."

One hit die. Ordinary Kobolds. You might use NPC wealth as a guideline to what they can bring to the battle in terms of gear and traps (pooling the wealth makes sense, since they're so tight-knit). The leaders may have Fighter or caster levels. They should have feats to grant them proficiency with whatever they're doing in combat (crossbows, splash weapons, etc), provided their class doesn't give it to them anyway. Obviously, use the guidelines in the "ecology" to know what level they are.

As long as some of them can hit Craft (Trap) DC 20, they should be able to plausibly build most traps.

Most of them should be sitting behind murder-holes in the walls firing crossbow bolts and other projectiles. This should grant them a large degree of cover, rendering them difficult to target with conventional weapons, especially if they drop prone each round after their turn (Round1: Shoot->Prone->Drop. Round 2: Stand->Shoot->Drop). Arrow Slits count as Improved Cover (+8 AC), and going Prone improves AC against ranged further (+4). They should also use splash weapons and things which target Touch AC. Noncombatants may be assigned tasks like reloading crossbows for the fighters.

Any low-level tactic to restrict or waste actions (Tanglefoot bags come to mind) will be very useful against a small strong band of PCs, as it will tip the action economy further in favor of our little green friends. The braver goblins may be the ones pushing walls of flaming garbage at them.

The Goblins must avoid melee at all costs, as it is suicide. This is why many of the Goblins will hide behind arrow-slits in the wall and use projectiles. If the PCs manage to breach the walls and get too close, run away while the others pommel them. When they turn their attention back, turn right around and start firing again.

Falling Objects deal good damage and block pathways off. Use this to your Goblins' advantage. Pit Traps are another fun way to mess with them (most of the time they're covered with a grate so they can be walkable in peacetime).

If the party is ill-prepared, large low-level mobs acting intelligently should be quite effective. This is primarily due to overwhelming the action economy, which is also why single bosses tend to be ineffective. There's a reason Leadership is so often banned :smallcool:

[Alienist]

Just to re-emphasise the point, if you're doing it right then "tuckers" goblins will NEVER be in melee with the heroes.

E.g. so the players scale the 30 foot wall, and the gobbos up the top disappear into lots of small twisty holes in the walls, which the heroes are (probably) too big to chase them into. Because of the twists shooting arrows after the fleeing gobbos won't work either.

Because their hit dice are so much lower than the players, assume that making attack rolls is fairly pointless. The gobbos know they'll never beat the party's AC the normal way. So have them use traps, area attacks, splash weapons, a dangerous environment (e.g. setting corridors on fire) and so forth.

If they have casters, have them summon swarms, there's some low level options for that (Warlock gets it at level 1 I think?)

----

Now, the most important thing is to have something on the other side of the gobbos, something that the players want. (E.g. a proper dungeon)

The ideal situation is for the players to just pay tribute to the gobbos to get past, since fighting them is not cost effective. And have the gobbos snigger at them when they do it. Really rub it in.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Kobolds work because Slight Build (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) allows them to go through tunnels sized for a tiny creature. That means a kobold can squeeze through a hole 15 inches wide. The kobolds coming out of holes to get around in front of them crawl out of tunnels that the intruders have no hope of making use of. The kobolds' main living chambers would only be accessible via such tunnels so adventurers would never be able to strike at their females or young, nor would they ever be able to access the bulk of the clan's wealth.

On top of that, a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Dracolich Warrior 1 with two flaws for Epic Toughness twice is CR 1 with 72 hp, ~20 AC, a paralyzing gaze, and a claw/claw/bite routine that paralyzes when it hits.

[Dissonance]

goblin tactics in pathfinder makes a lot of mention to three things. Ingenuity, fire, and explosives. So use tricks that really fit those three ideas.

-a few of the gobs have 1 or 2 class levels in alchemist. bombs and alchemist fire are easily obtainable

-a trap that casts web in a corridor, which then prompts some goblins in a tunnel above the hallway to drop an alchemist fire through a small hole onto the web.

-explosives behind a packed wall that can be set off remotely. direct the explosive so that the debris falls on whoever is in the hallway.

-a gigantic arena with a 40 ft rim that 20+ goblins will be lobbing alchemist fire and bombs. proceed to focus fire

- a batch of cold based weaponry. These goblins are smart and devious, so whatever the fire doesn't work against the cold should.

those are just a few ideas that ran through my head at the mention of smart goblins. this is just on their own without any shenanigans that might come from alliances and pacts. smart monsters are fun monsters, and with a home field advantage make deadly adversaries.

[AsteriskAmp]

For high level flight enabled PCs using strings tugged around the higher reaches but also linked to traps leads to the very amusing scenario of the druid getting a flurry of cuts upon wild-shaping into a dire eagle and getting entangled by common wire, the alchemist pouch filled with alchemical frosts and fires to the face of the wizard which accidentally flew through one and the very amusing tunnel collapse on the factotum which tried to disable the cables without realising they were keeping an area of the tunnel from collapsing.

[lsfreak]

It may not be directly in the spirit of Tucker's Kobolds, but if the Pathfinder Profession skill hasn't changed, 100 goblins making use of Profession (whatever) with a +4 mod is 700 gold every week. It costs 760g to hire a spellcaster to drop Permanent Image. I'm sure they can come up with some clever ways of using fifteen 10-foot squares of illusion.

Heroes of Battle (3.5, not PF) has rules for Aid Another with siege weapons (normally you can Aid Another only in melee, unless PF changed that). Get the PC's trapped with extremely low move speed in the middle of a large room (caltrops, mud, uneven terrain, whatever) and open up false walls with ballista hiding behind them, an entourage of goblins to provide bonuses on the attack roll, and a pair of goblins to open/close the wall every turn so the PCs can't return fire as easily. Really mean, the entire cavern is pitch-black, forcing the PCs to light a torch if they don't have darkvision, and the side rooms with the ballista are completely dark. The PC's choose between stumbling around in the dark at even lower speeds or giving the goblins the light they need for targeting. Of course, doesn't work with flight.

Traps-that-aren't. Not sure how to implement them here, but one of my favorites I pulled on my old group was an obvious tripwire. They carefully stood back and tripped it with an arrow... causing a rockslide. The entire point of the trap was just to make noise and alert the NPC camp that there were intruders coming. Know what your players are likely to do in a given situation, and turn that into part of the trap - traps that aren't traps at all and just make them lose time, traps that appear to do one thing but are only there as the trip to a bigger one, an obvious rock-rolling-down-the-stairs trap that the PC's trip and stand safely away but the actual trap is that when the rock reaches the bottom of the stairs the floor collapses under the weight.

[Slipperychicken]

small twisty holes in the walls, which the heroes are (probably) too big to chase them into.


PF space and squeezing rules, absurdly enough, treat Small the same as Medium. So lock the door behind you. And have the first one through ready an action to bar the door from one side. And pour nasty things like Alchemist's Fire on them.

Remember that most flame sources force a Reflex DC 15 or catch fire, dealing 1d6 damage per round.

Many traps can also be triggered from safety. Most with some pulled string or rocks. Browse the trap list for something affordable and useful.

Caltrops can be a nice addition to our hell-corridors. If any of them roll a 20 and hit someone's AC, that guy's movement is halved until he gets healed.

Lamp Oil poured on the ground requires no attack roll, covers one square, and deals 1d3/round for two rounds when burned, in addition to the chance to set the PCs themselves on fire.

Repeating my earlier suggestion of Pit Traps, adding that it's hard to escape one while Goblins are raining doom into the pit (and targeting any of your rope, too!). At 10th level, people should be flying, but you never know. There are groups at 17th who get TPK'd by dragons because they don't have Flight.

[Crustypeanut]

The only issue with Goblins in Pathfinder is that they're short-sighted, easily distracted, easily frightened, and half-insane. Kobolds, on the other hand, are more easily trained to work together.

Still, while making Goblins as organized as Tucker's Kobolds (Which was an awesome read, btw) would be difficult if you want to keep with Goblin's flavor, you can probably still figure out how to make them cause as much mayhem, in their own way.

One thing I could see Goblins doing is using pissed off animals.. the Goblins of Golarion book talks about them using wasp-hives (or beehives, forgot which) which are wrapped up in something and thrown at the enemy, or even throwing snakes at the enemy. Technically, one could do that with a jar of poisonous spiders, scorpions, etc too. The goblins are known to love keeping pets (as proven in "We Be Goblins!"), so having them keep loads of poisonous insects in jars for use in combat is reasonable enough.

Fire. Goblins love fire. While I can't see them being organized enough to have metal armor, shields, and molotovs, I could see them combining some goblins throwing oil and others throwing alchemist's fire. The issue would be getting them to cooperate long enough to do so. Perhaps a single Goblin leader could get them organized long enough to get it working.

One thing Goblins of Golarion mentions is setting animals on fire (Sheep as a great example), then pushing them at the enemy. This is a win-win, as it hurts the enemy and cooks the food if the Goblins win the battle. One could even see a Goblin pouring oil on something small, furry, and throwable (like a rabbit), lighting it, and throwing it. (hopefully without burning themselves too much)

[Killer Angel]

If they have casters, have them summon swarms, there's some low level options for that (Warlock gets it at level 1 I think?)


You don't need casters, you only need some murder-holes, and 2 or 3 hives, to be dropped through. Then seal the holes.

[Baroncognito]

You don't need casters, you only need some murder-holes, and 2 or 3 hives, to be dropped through. Then seal the holes.

They're goblins: don't have them seal the holes. If the pcs survive the fight, they'll probably encounter goblins covered in bee stings later.

[Tr011]

I know what Tucker's kobolds are, I'm looking for build advice. I know the point is play smart, but...will it really work against characters of tenth level? How high level should the gobos be?

That question makes it pretty clear: You did not understand the principles of Tucker's kobolds. If their stats, feats, spells, level or whatever matter, you did something terribly wrong.
It's about taking level 1 goblins, so they should have about 2hp or something and also their other stats are also lousy, but they can do whatever a small humanoid can do without being specialized in any way. So they can hide, pull levers, say things etc. and that's it.

[Greenish]

That question makes it pretty clear: You did not understand the principles of Tucker's kobolds. If their stats, feats, spells, level or whatever matter, you did something terribly wrong.
It's about taking level 1 goblins, so they should have about 2hp or something and also their other stats are also lousy, but they can do whatever a small humanoid can do without being specialized in any way. So they can hide, pull levers, say things etc. and that's it.But that just doesn't cut it with level 10 PCs.


Thus encouraged, our party scrambled down a side passage, only to be ambushed by more kobolds firing with light crossbows through murder holes in the walls and ceilings. Kobolds with metal armor and shields flung Molotov cocktails at us from the other sides of huge piles of flaming debris, which other kobolds pushed ahead of their formation using long metal poles like broomsticks.Do you see any of that, done by bog-standard kobolds (or goblins) as having any effect on a 10th level party whatsoever?

[Edit]: Not to mention that the very piece in question suggests using stronger monsters against higher level parties.

[Karoht]

Tuckers Orcs in a Swamp were outright deadly.

They bob up from a pool of water by the road, shoot, drop down. Reload under the water (wait until close to sunset, lots of glare on the water, very hard to see anything under it, especially in murky swamp water with grasses), pop back up, shoot.
The Orcs are either using water breathing potions or Aboleth Mucus (these orcs were the minions of Steve the Aboleth), your choice. Crossbows or bows, need to be waterproofed, alternatively javalins or throwing hatchets or throwing knives work well. Before they open fire, ensure they drop some caltrops a few spaces ahead of them in the water.
Preferably attack from two angles.
When they run, they run out of the shallow end of the water (other side of the slough) dropping more caltrops behind them. They run and jump across a pit trap and keep going, the party will likely have at least one person fall into the pit. In the event that the party catches up with them, they hide in the water again and scatter.

Tuckers Orcs at Night were hilarious. Make good use of that darkvision.
Have the Orcs up in trees. In the trees are ropes already set to swing to other trees. The orcs shoot, move action to swing away. Next round is spent tying old rope to tree, tying new rope to themselves. Next action is shoot and swing. Repeat.
Shoot being a loose term, but some ranged attack is the idea.
In the dark of night, this can be lethal. Tree's give cover, you've got darkness working for them, the average party won't all have darkvision. The Tuckers need to use this to their advantage, stay on the edges of darkvision range of the party, move in, attack move out. No one should be within 40ft of the party for longer than 1 round.
Toss in a smokestick or many when they need to retreat, also assisted by prepared ropes in the trees.

In both encounters, the moment the orcs lose 10% of their forces, they retreat.

Those two encounters make excellent lead-ups to the dungeon loaded with Tuckers (insert race). It teaches the party that these are going to be played smart, not mindless rabble. It teaches the party to anticipate ambushes and play tactical.

My two cents:
I always viewed the Tuckers type encounters to have three major components.
-Uber low CR creatures
-Smart tactics
-low to moderate CR traps to back them up
The numbers advantage should come from the fact that the Tuckers should almost always retreat to prepared positions and keep on attacking. The pressure stays on, the opportunity to respond to it is minimalized, the danger is always high.

@Greenish
I've seen Tuckers Kobolds annihilate LV15 parties who were complete morons. I've seen (due to lucky crit rolls) Tuckers Orcs utterly destroy a level 10 party just through sheer volume of dice rolled, combined with some poor optimization and tactics from the party.

And remember a rule I learned from playing Goldeneye against dumb computer opponents.
'No matter how stupid they might be, a monkey with a rocket launcher is still a monkey with a rocket launcher.'
Use caution.

[ReluctantDragon]

Can't believe no one has pointed you here, but it brings me joy to do so.

Ravingdork (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nb7q?Would-you-call-this-a-successful-game#1) covered this territory very well. I thoroughly enjoyed his post and look forward to yoinking his ideas in the near future. The party he ran this on seemed to be of a relatively similar level as your party, with an army to boot.

I don't think Tucker's [insert monster here] need to have any class levels. I think they just need to have access to resources and tools that hit the party's weaknesses. It is as simple as that.

Just my two bits.

[Ashtagon]

I know what Tucker's kobolds are, I'm looking for build advice. I know the point is play smart, but...will it really work against characters of tenth level? How high level should the gobos be?

The build advice for the original Tucker's kobolds was essentially "normal monster". That's it.

Don't think in terms of what powers they have. Think in terms of how they can prepare an ambush, lay out the terrain to their advantage, and use low cunning.

[kestrel404]

OK, first off, you need to understand something. Tucker's Kobolds were Kobolds and not some other race because Kobolds are natural Trapsmiths. They get racial bonuses to building traps. This made invading the home of Tucker's Kobolds an exercise in taking 5' steps and searching for traps while continuously being pelted by kobolds with slings who were hiding just around the corner.

Goblins are not natural trapsmiths. Look at the PFSRD entry for Goblins and you'll find something else entirely that Goblins do naturally - Riding. So if you want to extend the Tucker's Kobold scenario over to a Goblin encampment of some kind, instead of Traps, you're going to be facing wave after wave of mounted goblins. Usually, mounted goblin archers.

Note that not all Goblins will be riding Goblin Dogs (though many will be). Many will be riding warhorses, trained griffons, elephants and other beasts of large size and nasty abilities. And all of these animals will be trained to frenzy when not in the presence/under the control of goblins.

The environment you'll be fighting them in will be especially cultivated to make mounted combat on medium mounts the single most effective means of fighting - long straight 5' corridors with low ceilings (or under heavy canopies in forests/jungles). There will be the occasional choke points/intersections where multiple enemies can attack the party at once.

The nastiest trick is that the Goblins live at the top of a hill. After a fighting retreat up that hill, they start rolling boulders down it, then follow them up with cavalry charges and more mounted archery.

[Story]

"These kobolds were just regular kobolds, with 1-4 hp and all that, but they were mean."

One hit die. Ordinary Kobolds. You might use NPC wealth as a guideline to what they can bring to the battle in terms of gear and traps (pooling the wealth makes sense, since they're so tight-knit). The leaders may have Fighter or caster levels. They should have feats to grant them proficiency with whatever they're doing in combat (crossbows, splash weapons, etc), provided their class doesn't give it to them anyway. Obviously, use the guidelines in the "ecology" to know what level they are.

As long as some of them can hit Craft (Trap) DC 20, they should be able to plausibly build most traps.

Most of them should be sitting behind murder-holes in the walls firing crossbow bolts and other projectiles. This should grant them a large degree of cover, rendering them difficult to target with conventional weapons, especially if they drop prone each round after their turn (Round1: Shoot->Prone->Drop. Round 2: Stand->Shoot->Drop). Arrow Slits count as Improved Cover (+8 AC), and going Prone improves AC against ranged further (+4). They should also use splash weapons and things which target Touch AC. Noncombatants may be assigned tasks like reloading crossbows for the fighters.

Any low-level tactic to restrict or waste actions (Tanglefoot bags come to mind) will be very useful against a small strong band of PCs, as it will tip the action economy further in favor of our little green friends. The braver goblins may be the ones pushing walls of flaming garbage at them.

The Goblins must avoid melee at all costs, as it is suicide. This is why many of the Goblins will hide behind arrow-slits in the wall and use projectiles. If the PCs manage to breach the walls and get too close, run away while the others pommel them. When they turn their attention back, turn right around and start firing again.

Falling Objects deal good damage and block pathways off. Use this to your Goblins' advantage. Pit Traps are another fun way to mess with them (most of the time they're covered with a grate so they can be walkable in peacetime).

If the party is ill-prepared, large low-level mobs acting intelligently should be quite effective. This is primarily due to overwhelming the action economy, which is also why single bosses tend to be ineffective. There's a reason Leadership is so often banned :smallcool:

The problem with all that is that 10th level characters don't have to play by the goblin's rules. Why go through all that when you can just make your own tunnels?

Tucker's Kobolds were only dangerous due to the players playing stupidly. (Plus 1st ed was more deadly in general)

[Zubrowka74]

I think the main thing with Tucker's Kobold was an overconfident party.

Keeps them without any special class level. Someone suggested an alchemist, put one or two perhaps. A 10th level and it's 5th level apprentice. Look into archetypes from the ARG (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-goblin), there's one for the Alchemist and another for Barbarian.

[TopCheese]

But that just doesn't cut it with level 10 PCs.

Do you see any of that, done by bog-standard kobolds (or goblins) as having any effect on a 10th level party whatsoever?

[Edit]: Not to mention that the very piece in question suggests using stronger monsters against higher level parties.

Actually it does... I put 8 level.. 9 to 11 pcs through a "Tuckers Kobolds" dungeon (3.5/PF game). Using multiple tricks I was able to give them a great run for their money ... They still don't trust me when I DM and say the word "kobold". I wish I got a picture of their faces when they got no battle XP (they got trap/roleplay xp...) until they fought the dragonfire adept boss (who had backup).

I had... 25 kobolds to use and they killed maybe 6 of them.. I turned over my notes at the end of the game and they couldn't believe they were level 1 kobolds.

[Story]

Why didn't they ignore the kobolds and just tunnel or teleport through? Or at least use summons to scout the place out first?

[Greenish]

I've seen Tuckers Kobolds annihilate LV15 parties who were complete morons."Parties", in plural? I could buy one party with a Frenzied Berserker and three naked rogues managing to kill themselves, but more than that…

Details, please? It should prove amusing.

[Karoht]

"Parties", in plural? I could buy one party with a Frenzied Berserker and three naked rogues managing to kill themselves, but more than that…

Details, please? It should prove amusing.Trust me, it was more tragic than it was amuzing. It seems that just about every (warning: generalization) party that goes up against the Tuckers seems to greatly underestimate them, and that tends to be the problem.
You know that point of common sense where the party is half dead but decides to push on anyway through things which they know to be causing them injury? Yeah.

Between a Wizard who was low on spells to start with but insisted on pushing onward...
Between a Paladin who for some unknown reason continued to say every round 'I will save my Lay on Hands for the boss fight at the end of this mess'...
Between a summoner who had lost his Eidolon for the day and was down to summoning from spell slots, rather than using ANY of the spells he had which could have made the Tuckers Orcs a complete joke...

...And then start factoring in that with 20+ Orcs shooting bows and crossbows every round (note, half of them would be retreating, repositioning, reloading, etc, while the other half would fire), moving from position to position, and burning through a combined total of 400gp worth of oil and alchemical items, eventually the numbers caught up with the party. Crits inevitably confirmed, the damage just added up in spurts, and after a bit, the entire party was pretty much toast.
The DM jumped in at the last second and said that, when dropped below 10hp, the Orcs would just dog pile someone, grapple them, pin them, bind them. The motive was that between WBL and ransoming off this party, This is all that prevented a bunch of 1/2 CR Orcs from a total TPK. Another DM in this position resorted to the Dust of Sneezing and Choking, followed by capture, while the third simply used a bucket of (homebrewed illusions) fiat.

[Greenish]

Ah, Dust of Cheesing (seriously though, the GM shot himself in the foot by establishing that it exists and is available in his setting) and real heavy-handed GM fiat I can see, even if it's more "rocks fall, everyone dies" than Tucker's in the latter case.

But the bow-armed orcs still baffles me. Why didn't the PCs just kill the orcs?

[Zubrowka74]

Ah, Dust of Cheesing (seriously though, the GM shot himself in the foot by establishing that it exists and is available in his setting) and real heavy-handed GM fiat I can see, even if it's more "rocks fall, everyone dies" than Tucker's in the latter case.

But he says it was to prevent party death(s) so it's "rock falls, players survive".

[Greenish]

But he says it was to prevent party death(s) so it's "rock falls, players survive".The illusions had nothing to do with preventing the players' deaths, as far as I can tell, what with being a different DM in a different campaign and all.

Or so I read it.

[Karoht]

Ah, Dust of Cheesing (seriously though, the GM shot himself in the foot by establishing that it exists and is available in his setting) and real heavy-handed GM fiat I can see, even if it's more "rocks fall, everyone dies" than Tucker's in the latter case.

But the bow-armed orcs still baffles me. Why didn't the PCs just kill the orcs?Between the Orcs retreating too rapidly (and usually in more than one direction), cover granting them concealment, and the party saying 'screw it, keep running', the party couldn't really get a good shot at them back. In the one afformentioned instance, the Wizard and Summoner could have fired off a variety of spells which would have made the Orcs not really a threat, they sat on their resources, which they paid for big time.


The illusions had nothing to do with preventing the players' deaths, as far as I can tell, what with being a different DM in a different campaign and all.The "homebrew illusion brand DM Fiat" (patent pending) was 'those last two corridors full of orcs? yeah, just a complex illusion to test you, even your wounds are imaginary' sort of thing. Followed by a villain who proceeded to be diplomatic for a moment or three, then just up and leave, with the party then deciding 'screw this, teleport' and going home.