Theoretical Question

[Zanthy1]

Your adventuring party has wandered through the dark forest, slaying the evil lich who resides at its center. Behind his body lies a giant Runestone. You volunteer to touch it, and upon doing so, it shatters and turns to dust and gets blown away yada yada yada. Upon touching it you hear, in your mind, "You have great power, but with it comes great risk."

What just happened is you were granted a special ability that allows you to cast the Wish spell once a week without the material or xp component costs. (all wishes must be within DM discretion) However, after each use you roll a d100. on a 1 nothing happens to you, on a 2-30 you are hit with a minor "risk," with a 31-65 you are hit with a medium "risk," with a 64-99 you are hit with a major "risk," and with a 100 you are hit with the ultimate "risk." Also for every use, you are reduced to 1hp and it cannot be restored for 1 hour (temporary hit points given before use are removed as well, any given after are halved)

The risks are all bad things of according level. For example, a minor risk could be as simple as being blind in 1 eye, or losing a finger, to losing magic item you possess to the void or something, and a major risk could level you down, permanently lose ability scores, or other things. The Ultimate Risk is an entire annihilation via obliteration.

The Wish spell happens first, and then after it has resolved, then you would roll the d100 and see what happens. However, there are modifiers that alter your roll. The first time you use the power, your modifier is +0. Each use increases it by +1. A minor risk is +1, medium +2, major +3. Also some wishes may increase this as well, but the DM must explain it ahead of time. For example, the player says what he wants his wish to be, the DM says "I can do that, but it will add a +2 modifier onto your risk roll." The player can choose to accept this or not. The modifiers in this case are applied immediately, while all the other ones are applied to the next roll.

I would like a couple things from you:

Would you use this power if you were given it?
Feedback, please give it to me

Thanks!

[Stront]

Your adventuring party has wandered through the dark forest, slaying the evil lich who resides at its center. Behind his body lies a giant Runestone. You volunteer to touch it, and upon doing so, it shatters and turns to dust and gets blown away yada yada yada. Upon touching it you hear, in your mind, "You have great power, but with it comes great risk."

What just happened is you were granted a special ability that allows you to cast the Wish spell once a week without the material or xp component costs. (all wishes must be within DM discretion) However, after each use you roll a d100. on a 1 nothing happens to you, on a 2-30 you are hit with a minor "risk," with a 31-65 you are hit with a medium "risk," with a 64-99 you are hit with a major "risk," and with a 100 you are hit with the ultimate "risk." Also for every use, you are reduced to 1hp and it cannot be restored for 1 hour (temporary hit points given before use are removed as well, any given after are halved)

The risks are all bad things of according level. For example, a minor risk could be as simple as being blind in 1 eye, or losing a finger, to losing magic item you possess to the void or something, and a major risk could level you down, permanently lose ability scores, or other things. The Ultimate Risk is an entire annihilation via obliteration.

The Wish spell happens first, and then after it has resolved, then you would roll the d100 and see what happens. However, there are modifiers that alter your roll. The first time you use the power, your modifier is +0. Each use increases it by +1. A minor risk is +1, medium +2, major +3. Also some wishes may increase this as well, but the DM must explain it ahead of time. For example, the player says what he wants his wish to be, the DM says "I can do that, but it will add a +2 modifier onto your risk roll." The player can choose to accept this or not. The modifiers in this case are applied immediately, while all the other ones are applied to the next roll.

I would like a couple things from you:

Would you use this power if you were given it?
Feedback, please give it to me

Thanks!

I would use this ability as much as I would use a Deck of Many Things. No thank you! :smallconfused:

[Krobar]

Nope. I wouldn't ever use that power.

[Occasional Sage]

No. No, no, and no.

I would, though, go to great pains to know ytf such a thing was made in the first place.

[Deaxsa]

I would use this ability as much as I would use a Deck of Many Things. No thank you! :smallconfused:

yea, really. only worse. if losing an eye is a minor risk, can you lose two eyes? can i wish myself the body i had before i started losing bodyparts and magic items? you should make it much more like this:

1-30: nothing
31-60: minor risk (someone dislikes you, your boxers dissapear, your horse is untrained, these are prank things, nothing that could really affect gameplay except in niche situations)
61-90: major risk (-3 to attack or damage for a week, lose 1 or 2 spell slots per spell level, can't be healed my magic for the next day, you take 1d6+2 ability damage to a random stat, etc. these are things that negatively affect you, and may be permanent, but if they are, they are very trivial. for the most part, they are just incurable debuffs that end after a short while)
91-100: Ultimate risk (this is where the trouble lies. this is why you don't use this very often. the others? they are bad, but these? these totally cripple you. things like reducing your max hp by 10% permanently, or 70% for a couple of days, your maximum level of respite is fatigued for the next year, all currency you own disappears, everybody on the planet becomes unfriendly to you.. even your party members, you lose a bodypart, lose your memory of exactly the last year and are teleported to where you were exactly a year ago, etc)

edit: also, what's up with the modifiers? don't include that, that just encourages the players to use your power even LESS. i mean, after the first use, it's impossible to get away with it without SOMETHING bad happening. don't include modifiers for using it repeatedly. That said, don't let the character roll ultimate risk on the first go, that's just ridiculously cruel, especially if they have such a vague description of what it does. seriously, that would just be sadistic.

edit2: let's not forget that giving one character oads of power marginalizes the other characters in terms of importance to the plot. while sometimes this occurs, no one wants to play somebody else's sidequest as a campaign. which is what this sounds like it could all too easily turn into.

[limejuicepowder]

Unless there was an extraordinarily compelling plot reason for it, absolutely not. Far too risky. Even the minor risk could potentially make my character unplayable. "Toragga the Orc Barb, Slayer of Many" just became Torragga the Putz because his greatsword is no longer useable - lacking a thumb makes it hard to grip it with both hands.

[Deaxsa]

No. No, no, and no.

I would, though, go to great pains to know ytf such a thing was made in the first place.

and then, when i found the person who made it, i would start cutting off their fingers and say "oh, you want a miracle, now, do you? don't worry, this is just the MINOR RISK"

[HunterOfJello]

I would use it all the gods damned time. Especially if I felt that there was something I could accomplish by using the Wish that I could never do without it.


I think players would only ever use this if they're the type to draw a card from a deck of many things. Some people are just risk adverse and will never draw from it no matter what.

[Laserlight]

I think the word you're looking for is "consequence" rather than "risk".
"Blind in one eye" strikes me as more than "minor".

That said: I'd only use it to retire, or if I had to use it to avoid dying.

[tyckspoon]

If.. IF I knew, with certainty, that the DM would be reasonable about 'greater effects' Wishes, I might consider it. If I'm limited to the safe-list effects, then no, not unless it's the absolute last resort for the party- nothing on that list is worth a 1-in-3 chance of severely harming a character.

[Deophaun]

Wouldn't even bother recording it on my character sheet.

The only reason to ever use such a wish is for something major and plot related. However, if your plot requires not only using a Wish to move it forward, but using a Wish that also saws off the wisher's limbs, then I'm pretty sure I want to play a different game. So, either the party will find another way, or its time to roll up new characters.

[White_Drake]

Could you wish, say, "I wish that any future wishes I make with my ability will not cause any negative consequences"?

[NichG]

It sounds like basically 99% of the time you'll suffer a loss that is greater than what the Wish spell can normally give you, barring certain uses that run afoul of what I'd consider polite play etiquette (e.g. +Infinity magic item generation). I'd consider it with the support of an Amulet of Second Chances, so I could undo unpleasant results, but otherwise I wouldn't touch it.

If on the other hand the DM is saying 'this is a Wish like the Wishes of legend, not like the spell - there's no power cap, and the Wish will only be twisted based on the d100 roll and not on me being lawyerly with your wording' then I'd absolutely use it.

[JaronK]

I'd absolutely use it, but I'd make sure to use spells like Augery to make sure I didn't get that risk. Maybe some higher level divinations. Basically, as stated it's not worth it, but with the risk ameliorated, it's fine.

JaronK

[elonin]

It's not as though this is unreasonable. Remember that this a free wish with no xp cost. There is only the likelyhood of getting messed up.

[AuraTwilight]

Take away the thing about being reduced to 1 HP for an hour and you have a deal.

[Deaxsa]

It's not as though this is unreasonable. Remember that this a free wish with no xp cost. There is only the EXTREMELY HIGH likelyhood of getting EXTREMELY messed up.

ftfy. and yea, as given, it's pretty freakin unreasonable. the only thing that could make this worse is if you activated it in a dream(very soon a nightmare) or something.

[JaronK]

If you Simulacrum'd yourself, could the Simulacrum use this power? Because that's one easy way around the "risks".

JaronK

[Matticussama]

I'd definitely use it as a player. I'm also the kind of player who doesn't hesitate before drawing a card from a Deck of Many things. As long as there is a great payout for a great risk, it is worth it. I'm not playing D&D for safety; I enjoy the fun of uncertainty.

That being said, how important it is also depends upon the relative power level of the rest of the world. At mid levels this would be great, especially if finding scrolls, magic items, etc above 7th level spell power is rare and you don't necessarily have access to any magic item that you might want to buy. If you're at high level however, or if you have a magic item shop with anything you can afford being available, it becomes less likely to be used.

[nedz]

This just sounds like a normal wish to me — well in certain player's hands anyway.

[TuggyNE]

If you Simulacrum'd yourself, could the Simulacrum use this power? Because that's one easy way around the "risks".

Body outside body. Bam. :smalltongue:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Spend the first Wish to remove all those silly drawbacks?

"No wishing to get rid of the drawbacks!"

Wish to get rid of the no wishing away the drawbacks!

Etc.

[Zanthy1]

Thank you for the insight. Its not necessarily a plot point for a campaign in that they Players would need to use it for something specific, but it was something I wanted to have as a plot device. In the world there would be a few such Runestones (the number would be determined by how many PCs there are coincidently lol). A few baddies may be searching for these, and maybe 1 of them has found a runestone that he can sue, but all the others will only work to the PCs touch, for reasons yet to be determined. For baddies though, they probably will play it as a super risky player would, only using in dire situations.

The reason why I have it dropping to 1 hp is to encourage it not to be used in combat, say "I wish the BBEG was dead." ad to have it be more useful as a roleplay aspect. It is also to teach a lesson to the Players, that all great power comes with responsibility, and of course consequences. The aforementioned "risk" was just an idea for what to call it, consequence also works, or side effect even.

The reasons for the modifiers was to resemble the increasing overwhelming nature of such a great power. I drew inspiration from Lord of the Ring with the ring of power, in that the more one used it, the more powerful it grew and the more dependent they became on it. If every time they used it, the risk of having something bad happen to them increased, they wouldn't use it all the time, whereas if there was a 30% chance all the time that they would be ok, then they could be wishing all over the place.

I do see what you mean about changing the roll results though. I am thinking of changing it to 1-35 means nothing, 36-65 means minor, 66-85 is a medium, 86-99 is a major, and 100 is Ultimate. (These numbers are adjustable of course, this is still in the planning phase)

I insist on keeping the modifiers, but the "Side-effects" can be trimmed down. A minor would be like, blind for a week or mute for a week, medium would be a step up with like loss of spells per day or minuses to attacks and damage or something like that for a week or something, major would be the permanent things, like losing a limb, or having the wish act just like the actual spell and cost them experience. The Ultimate would still be totally obliteration, I really like that. I would of course explain this whole system to the player as they get the power, making sure to tell them that if they roll a 100, they go bye bye.

To address the ideas of protecting the body, I feel that finding loopholes would not be rewarded in this sense, because getting a free wish is a big deal (not entirely free sure) so I would probably make it that you cannot use it when not in your natural form or something. The whole point is that you get amazing power in exchange for a chance at bad things happening, which is at the core of all adventure, taking that risk.

Ideally this would not be a low level campaign, but I acknowledge that a high level campaign would make this not as cool, so I am thinking mid level, probably starting around 4 and going from there.

[Matticussama]

I feel like this sort of system would definitely work best in the 6 - 15 field of play; any lower and access to Wishes of any form are just too powerful (even with side effects), and any higher than that causes the risk to be too much to bother with if you can just cast Wish and Miracle or easily find a Scroll/Ring with either spell. So if you start off at level 4, you should probably have them level up a bit before introducing the first Runestone. Of course, you would probably want to do that to establish plot anyways.

[Zanthy1]

I feel like this sort of system would definitely work best in the 6 - 15 field of play; any lower and access to Wishes of any form are just too powerful (even with side effects), and any higher than that causes the risk to be too much to bother with if you can just cast Wish and Miracle or easily find a Scroll/Ring with either spell. So if you start off at level 4, you should probably have them level up a bit before introducing the first Runestone. Of course, you would probably want to do that to establish plot anyways.

I like that yeah. I was thinking start them level 4, and a few levels in, maybe 5 or 6, introduce the character who would lead them to the runestones (BBEG). During their time with him, they may discover that there are X amount of runestones. The first one they find (with the BBEG's help) they find, he activates it and gets the power and laughs and says how he fooled them and that he is off to find the rest. Then it becomes sort of a race to find the others (if the players want to that is). Each runestone would be its own quest, and would be designed for the player that could activate the runestone.

Eventually all the runestones are active and each player has received the power. Actually, I am not sure I like that, because that could and will easily get out of hand. Plot tips are greatly appreciated!

Also keep in mind that all wishes are up to the DM, if it seems to unreasonable, he or she can always say no. The player would not have anything happen if that is the case, just have to come up with something else. For example: no wishing for more wishes and probably no wishing for the consequence to be removed (that would defeat the purpose, and I would consider it game breaking, which I frown upon :smallmad:

[Kelb_Panthera]

presumably the player would only have the quoted warning to infer that there's a drawback to using the effect most of the time?

With such a vague warning I'd play it as an ace in the hole, providing I knew it was essentially a wish SU.

If the stuff really hits the fan, break out the wish. Otherwise, don't tempt fate for no reason.

[Zanthy1]

presumably the player would only have the quoted warning to infer that there's a drawback to using the effect most of the time?

With such a vague warning I'd play it as an ace in the hole, providing I knew it was essentially a wish SU.

If the stuff really hits the fan, break out the wish. Otherwise, don't tempt fate for no reason.

That is sort of what I was thinking. I think of the Force and how Jedi use it, but the Sith abuse it. If the players are more Jedi like, they will use something so devastating in clutch situations, whereas a Sith may try using it frequently.

This is not meant to be used every session, but maybe once or twice during a campaign. Not to say that it can't be used every session (provided they are at least a week "in game time" apart), but this would take a fair amount of time away from actual play, which is why it seems like a last resort.

Im thinking, the PCs are fighting a Dragon an they are doing alright, winning but only slightly. Then 2 more Dragons show up, sealing their fate. Or does it? This power can do pretty much anything, the only limits are what the DM will allow. Myself DMing, almost anything can go, except for tweaking with the game mechanics with this ability.

[Greenish]

A few baddies may be searching for these, and maybe 1 of them has found a runestone that he can sue, but all the others will only work to the PCs touch, for reasons yet to be determined.Oh, if you can sue for damages caused by the use of said Wishes, then yeah, I'd use it all the time (with the first Wish being for a high-power layer willing to work pro-bono). :smallcool:


[Edit]:
Im thinking, the PCs are fighting a Dragon an they are doing alright, winning but only slightly. Then 2 more Dragons show up, sealing their fate.See now, that'd be one reason to avoid ever getting this power like a plague.

[Zanthy1]

Oh, if you can sue for damages caused by the use of said Wishes, then yeah, I'd use it all the time (with the first Wish being for a high-power layer willing to work pro-bono). :smallcool:


[Edit]: See now, that'd be one reason to avoid ever getting this power like a plague.

haha I feel like no high-power lawyer would ever work pro-bono :smalltongue:

What I meant to imply about the extra Dragons was not that having the power drew enemies to you, but that in a situation like that you would use it as apposed to walking down the road and turning a traveling merchant into a platypus forever. Although the BBEG may send people after them, mostly it'd work just like in a normal world. If they used it often and everyone new about it, then yeah other baddies would come searching for them to acquire the power. However most of the time this probably wouldn't happen. (maybe if they used it to make the capital city disappear?)

[joca4christ]

I love it. As a player, depending upon what class/race combo I was playing at the time, I can totally see using this, even if it meant my death, as a heroic sacrifice to save my party, a kingdom, or the WORLD! Awesome storytelling potential.

[White_Drake]

Perhaps, if you would prefer that the players not use it too much, you should give it a 1/day or 1/week limitation with the option of saving up uses.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'd strongly suggest dropping a few more hints about the nature of the power. Only the cautious will take something as vague as the given warning as a sign to use the ability sparringly. Perhaps have them stumble upon some historical account of the last few guys that got this power and their unpleasant fates.

[ahenobarbi]

That is sort of what I was thinking. I think of the Force and how Jedi use it, but the Sith abuse it. If the players are more Jedi like, they will use something so devastating in clutch situations, whereas a Sith may try using it frequently.

This is not meant to be used every session, but maybe once or twice during a campaign. Not to say that it can't be used every session (provided they are at least a week "in game time" apart), but this would take a fair amount of time away from actual play, which is why it seems like a last resort.

Im thinking, the PCs are fighting a Dragon an they are doing alright, winning but only slightly. Then 2 more Dragons show up, sealing their fate. Or does it? This power can do pretty much anything, the only limits are what the DM will allow. Myself DMing, almost anything can go, except for tweaking with the game mechanics with this ability.

Uh. I'm sorry but this sounds like a terrible idea. One of those will happen, none seems good to me:
- Not use it. Kind of waste. Might as well not give it to them.
- Use and abuse it. Good-bye campaign.
- Use it and get screwed. Good-bye campaign.
- Use it without abusing and not get screwed. Haha, kidding, not with the rules you posted.

I don't see any reason to use the mechanics you described. IF there is one could you share it?

[Zanthy1]

I love it. As a player, depending upon what class/race combo I was playing at the time, I can totally see using this, even if it meant my death, as a heroic sacrifice to save my party, a kingdom, or the WORLD! Awesome storytelling potential.

I asked one of my buddies and he thought the exact opposite (in terms saving others), he said he'd use it for personal gains, which I thought would be equally as awesome.

@ white drake, it can only be used 1/week, but you cannot save them up

@Kelb, I was planning to tell the Player (out of game) exactly what it does, how it works, and what the potential risks are. I would suggest that he know that, but also play it like his character would.

[Sheogoroth]

It seems to me that most 'risks' are reversible with another wish. Now, if you were to give all of your magic items to your comrades, wish yourself the whole body-double stasis thing, and scroll of magic jar.
Then grant your body double stat bonuses until you die.


•Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.

If you keep the ability to cheese a wish spell- rinse and repeat. If not, then you just got some free stat bonuses.

You could balance it by making him give up his soul to use it. "soul belongs to a demon and must barter with something of equal value for a resurrection, alignment becomes permanently chaotic evil, etc."
In any case, it should be a 1-time use.

[Xzar]

I like the idea of great power at great risk, but this seems a little harsh. I'd use the power to save the lives of the party if I were good aligned, otherwise I'd only ever use it as a last resort to save myself.

[Zanthy1]

It seems to me that most 'risks' are reversible with another wish. Now, if you were to give all of your magic items to your comrades, wish yourself the whole body-double stasis thing, and scroll of magic jar.
Then grant your body double stat bonuses until you die.



If you keep the ability to cheese a wish spell- rinse and repeat. If not, then you just got some free stat bonuses.

You could balance it by making him give up his soul to use it. "soul belongs to a demon and must barter with something of equal value for a resurrection, alignment becomes permanently chaotic evil, etc."
In any case, it should be a 1-time use.

Selling the soul...I like that, or connect the soul to the spell so they cannot escape it. A note, this is not meant for the party to be using willynilly, it is only to be used at dire times, or with a vastly thought out wish in mind, and full knowledge of what could happen as a result. There will be no rinsing and repeating, if this gets used more than once in a session, something has gone wrong.

However, if I were to use it as a quest idea, than maybe its a one time use?

Please keep the feedback coming, I want to tweak this so its baller :smallbiggrin:

[lunar2]

i had a similar idea recently, after reading the neverending story.

give them a necklace that grants wishes at will. however, each wish randomly removes 1d4 skill points, 1 bab, 1 base save bonus, or 1 caster level as the cost for using the wish. not a chance of losing these things, it just flat loses them, and they are irreplaceable. the wish is a SU ability.

[ahenobarbi]

give them a necklace that grants wishes at will. however, each wish randomly removes 1d4 skill points, 1 bab, 1 base save bonus, or 1 caster level as the cost for using the wish. not a chance of losing these things, it just flat loses them, and they are irreplaceable. the wish is a SU ability.

It's not like you could dominate a commoner to use the thing for you. Or summon. Or...

Really I don't think this idea will play right in d&d.

[lunar2]

ok, make it an innate ability granted by the necklace, not something the necklace itself does. the necklace gave you the power, not the commoner currently wearing it. problem solved.

[ahenobarbi]

ok, make it an innate ability granted by the necklace, not something the necklace itself does. the necklace gave you the power, not the commoner currently wearing it. problem solved.

Who would put on a mgic item without knowing what id does. Once you know dominate commoner and give him (or her, or it) the ability :smalltongue:

Or if you did put it on yourself wish for ring of 3 wishes, suck the cost once, use each of the wishes from the ring to create ring of 3 wishes...

[Zanthy1]

My ability is something that only the player can use, its a mind sort of thing. With the necklace, maybe make it so the user is unaffected by mind altering affects that would inhibit his wishing abilities.

Just cause there are loopholes, doesn't mean you can't fill them in as you go. Plus if you flat out say, "I will not allow you to do that," then it simply won't happen. In DnD, the DM has the all say. If you cannot help but let your Players walk all over you, maybe you should up your game

[ahenobarbi]

Just cause there are loopholes, doesn't mean you can't fill them in as you go. Plus if you flat out say, "I will not allow you to do that," then it simply won't happen. In DnD, the DM has the all say. If you cannot help but let your Players walk all over you, maybe you should up your game

Yup, you can limit wish power. Still I believe what I wrote before:


Uh. I'm sorry but this sounds like a terrible idea. One of those will happen, none seems good to me:
- Not use it. Kind of waste. Might as well not give it to them.
- Use and abuse it. Good-bye campaign.
- Use it and get screwed. Good-bye campaign.
- Use it without abusing and not get screwed. Haha, kidding, not with the rules you posted.

I don't see any reason to use the mechanics you described. IF there is one could you share it?

[Fable Wright]

...At level 4, in character, I would probably use the Wish once to test it out, probably incurring minor penalties, to put me 25,000gp above WBL, and proceed to break the game in half. Other uses would only be for the purposes of plot, but the first Wish would do quite a lot of work for me over the campaign.

However, I don't like the random aspect. I think it would be better to just have escalating penalties. First use, you get a Limited Wish as a freebie, and a warning that both the cost and benefit will increase from now on. Second use, you incur a Minor penalty. Third use, you get a Major Penalty. Fourth use is a heroic sacrifice because your mind, body, and soul are utterly annihilated and all that remains of your existence is a Vestige outside of reality. No eternal rest, no glory in your eternal reward, just drifting outside of reality, waiting for someone to give you just a day of their lives...

[lunar2]

Who would put on a mgic item without knowing what id does. Once you know dominate commoner and give him (or her, or it) the ability :smalltongue:

Or if you did put it on yourself wish for ring of 3 wishes, suck the cost once, use each of the wishes from the ring to create ring of 3 wishes...

and how do you know what this artifact does, unless you are told or you find out yourself?

@dominate. the necklace gives its power to its controller, not the person wearing it. it's still your power, no matter what you do to try to get around it. use it or not, but it's yours.

@ring of 3 wishes. it's a hourerule, but i've always held that a wish can't create an item that has a spell prereq that wish can't duplicate. so, no wishing for more wishes! or wishing for gates, for that matter, or any other infinite loop effects.

[JaronK]

My ability is something that only the player can use, its a mind sort of thing. With the necklace, maybe make it so the user is unaffected by mind altering affects that would inhibit his wishing abilities.

Just cause there are loopholes, doesn't mean you can't fill them in as you go. Plus if you flat out say, "I will not allow you to do that," then it simply won't happen. In DnD, the DM has the all say. If you cannot help but let your Players walk all over you, maybe you should up your game

Obviously, clever players will try things to get around it (like using Magic Jar so the body that takes the damage isn't yours). If you ban that, you're still going to run into the basic Deck of Many Things problem... either they get something really powerful and the drawback wasn't too bad, or the drawback was horrible. Either way is very unbalancing... but it's luck based, so you don't even know which direction the imbalance is going to go. From a game design perspective, that's very bad.

JaronK

[ahenobarbi]

@dominate. the necklace gives its power to its controller, not the person wearing it. it's still your power, no matter what you do to try to get around it. use it or not, but it's yours.

So you can use suggestion, diplomacy, bluff... to get someone else to use the thing for your benefit (let commoner sacrifice his [random thing] for something nice, then take it away).


@ring of 3 wishes. it's a hourerule, but i've always held that a wish can't create an item that has a spell prereq that wish can't duplicate. so, no wishing for more wishes! or wishing for gates, for that matter, or any other infinite loop effects.

Since when wish can't duplicate 9th level arcane spells (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/sanctum-spell--2507/)? :smalltongue:

And even without that giving ability like that is not a good idea (for the reasons I already posted).

EDIT: I forgot

and how do you know what this artifact does, unless you are told or you find out yourself?

I wonder (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/identify.htm), is this possible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/analyzeDweomer.htm)...

[lunar2]

So you can use suggestion, diplomacy, bluff... to get someone else to use the thing for your benefit (let commoner sacrifice his [random thing] for something nice, then take it away).



Since when wish can't duplicate 9th level arcane spells (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/sanctum-spell--2507/)? :smalltongue:

And even without that giving ability like that is not a good idea (for the reasons I already posted).

EDIT: I forgot


I wonder (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/identify.htm), is this possible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/analyzeDweomer.htm)...

@charm, suggestion, diplomacy, you'd better be very good with the diplomacy, because neither charm nor suggestion is going to force them to take obviously harmful actions, such as, you know, giving up a piece of their memory to power you up. and that's assuming you find the person who has the necklace already, and that they don't have defenses against that stuff. because once the necklace is yours, you have the power, not the person you hand it off to to bypass the cost. if you control the power, you take the cost.

@sanctum spell. wish doesn't say it can duplicate metamagic. and even if it could, the sanctum for a wished spell is wherever you are standing :smalltongue:

@identify/analyze dweomer. read them both. they don't work on artifacts.

[Vaz]

I would use it.

To wish for a Scroll of Gate. And never use it again.

[Acanous]

When I first got into 3.0, my DM liked the iconic wishes, but went out of his way to screw with them.

So I made a set of rules for when *I* would use a wish, and the very first one is to always wish on behalf of someone else.

The party would have much better magic item inventory, and my character would probably retire in a cave, the eyeless, thumbless sage.

[NichG]

Here's a bit of advice: don't call this a Wish.

These days a Wish just doesn't have the same wonder and mystery that it used to, as things like the Wish economy, 'safe' uses of Wish, etc have been discussed indefinitely. The result is that players familiar with this will tend not to use Wish as 'I can ask for anything' but instead 'I can duplicate 8th level or lower arcane spells' or 'I can get a magic item' or 'I can get 25000gp'. So the situation with two more dragons showing up? Few people here would say 'I wish those dragons were dead' because they know dragons have good Fort saves and high HD and are assuming that the spell would duplicate Circle of Death or something.

Instead you could call it something like 'a change'. By invoking this power you change reality in some way but suffer a price. Don't necessarily be specific about what that means, but do make it clear that neither the price or the changes that have already been invoked by others are subject to alteration - the power won't fight itself. And do not charge the price for impossible requests, just say it fails.

Of course your players may not be quite as experienced or jaded, in which case it can still work to call it a Wish.

[Zanthy1]

Here's a bit of advice: don't call this a Wish.

These days a Wish just doesn't have the same wonder and mystery that it used to, as things like the Wish economy, 'safe' uses of Wish, etc have been discussed indefinitely. The result is that players familiar with this will tend not to use Wish as 'I can ask for anything' but instead 'I can duplicate 8th level or lower arcane spells' or 'I can get a magic item' or 'I can get 25000gp'. So the situation with two more dragons showing up? Few people here would say 'I wish those dragons were dead' because they know dragons have good Fort saves and high HD and are assuming that the spell would duplicate Circle of Death or something.

Instead you could call it something like 'a change'. By invoking this power you change reality in some way but suffer a price. Don't necessarily be specific about what that means, but do make it clear that neither the price or the changes that have already been invoked by others are subject to alteration - the power won't fight itself. And do not charge the price for impossible requests, just say it fails.

Of course your players may not be quite as experienced or jaded, in which case it can still work to call it a Wish.

This. This is perfect. Not a wish, but a change in reality. Maybe have the consequence be related to what they change as apposed to entirely random? Think Newton's law (not sure which one specifically, and I sure hope it was Newton's law otherwise I just look foolish) that says that all actions have a reaction. If they wish the 2 extra dragons didn't exist, then they would cease to exist, ever have existed, and ever will exist. However, this would cause a reaction, probably of equal value, or relative value at least. I still like the possibility of obliterating oneself, so maybe I'll have them roll a d100 (or even a d20) and on a 100 (or a 1) they go bye bye, otherwise the reaction happens normally?

[ahenobarbi]

@charm, suggestion, diplomacy, you'd better be very good with the diplomacy, because neither charm nor suggestion is going to force them to take obviously harmful actions, such as, you know, giving up a piece of their memory to power you up. and that's assuming you find the person who has the necklace already, and that they don't have defenses against that stuff. because once the necklace is yours, you have the power, not the person you hand it off to to bypass the cost. if you control the power, you take the cost.

(Charm person on level 1 commoner)
(Ready action to kill the commoner after ([s]he|it) uses wish)
Wow my new best friend, here have this you just need to say put this on "I wanna 25000 gp" and it will come true! Please try it out (because we are friends and everything).
(kill the commoner, take the wealth)


@sanctum spell. wish doesn't say it can duplicate metamagic. and even if it could, the sanctum for a wished spell is wherever you are standing :smalltongue:

Well that would make things a bit less broken. Still even one proper wish could easily break game (and even without custom magic items).


@identify/analyze dweomer. read them both. they don't work on artifacts.

Ask a bard?

[rot42]

Think Newton's law (not sure which one specifically, and I sure hope it was Newton's law otherwise I just look foolish) that says that all actions have a reaction.

Yep, good ol' Newton's third. Not to be confused with the Threefold Law. I highly recommend that you simply establish with your players that you all want to play the same game (viz. one that does not involve Wish shenanigans) rather than try to close all potential loopholes (it looks like you are leaning this way anyway, but making it explicit can help).

Have you seen the Taint mechanics in Heroes of Horror? The corrupting force of evil grants mental and physical defects that could likely be refluffed for your purposes. You could have each use assign a certain amount of Taint (with or without the evil associations, numerical value tuned to how often you would like to see the ability used) to each use, giving an escalating danger to further uses.

Especially at lower levels, there is a pretty significant risk that this will take over the campaign - it will become a game about the ability, with some D&D on the side. It could still be fun, of course, but significantly distorted from normal game play. Maybe you could have the magnitude of the change that can be effected scale with the number of Wishers - as the party finds more of these runes, they can affect larger and more significant aspects of reality. This would also make it more a party ability rather than an individual ability, so the PCs who find theirs later will be less left out.

[Zanthy1]

Yep, good ol' Newton's third. Not to be confused with the Threefold Law. I highly recommend that you simply establish with your players that you all want to play the same game (viz. one that does not involve Wish shenanigans) rather than try to close all potential loopholes (it looks like you are leaning this way anyway, but making it explicit can help).

Have you seen the Taint mechanics in Heroes of Horror? The corrupting force of evil grants mental and physical defects that could likely be refluffed for your purposes. You could have each use assign a certain amount of Taint (with or without the evil associations, numerical value tuned to how often you would like to see the ability used) to each use, giving an escalating danger to further uses.

Especially at lower levels, there is a pretty significant risk that this will take over the campaign - it will become a game about the ability, with some D&D on the side. It could still be fun, of course, but significantly distorted from normal game play. Maybe you could have the magnitude of the change that can be effected scale with the number of Wishers - as the party finds more of these runes, they can affect larger and more significant aspects of reality. This would also make it more a party ability rather than an individual ability, so the PCs who find theirs later will be less left out.

I like where you are going, but I would prefer to have the ability just be a side thing, or part of a quest or something. In a campaign I am playing in, my character has been hit with some form of special curse that removes 1 ability score per day, and the only way to fix it is to find Pelor (who has been embodied on the material plane) and have him fix me. Because of this, my party and I rushed ahead in the campaign, and actually skipped a good 30% of the story because I am rushing to get cured. While it makes it sort of cool, I think I will avoid the taint. But I appreciate your input!

[Curmudgeon]

With a character under about level 8, I'd use the thing every single week. If the rewards don't get me above that mark before I hit a major risk, I'd just suicide by NPC (run into the middle of every battle immediately, with no preparation) and then come in with a new character.

Simply put: if there's a lot of screwing around with extraordinary options at the DM level, expect a lot of screwing around with extraordinary options at the player level.

[Person_Man]

Your character is an idiot for touching the runestone in the first place. The correct procedure is to Identify all treasure before touching it. If it's potentially dangerous, you Dominate a creature, have him pick it up, and then command him to make Wishes for your benefit until the Runestone kills him.

[joca4christ]

Oh! Oh! I have an idea!

Wouldn't it be cool that each use, depending upon the amount of change is used, transformed the user in some way? Like eventually becoming a runestone or something themselves?

I think I read a similar storyline somewhere where each use of a power turned the character into question more crystalline or something. So if the PC did something vastly heroic...or whatever...with the power, it would transform them immediately into a new runestone.

With that said, regardless of what you choose, just discuss the idea with your players OOC. See what their thoughts are...would they abuse it or use it to make the story epic? Only you and your players can really determine how this would play out.

[Zubrowka74]

Could you wish, say, "I wish that any future wishes I make with my ability will not cause any negative consequences"?

This (http://xkcd.com/1086/)...........

[Pilo]

Maybe you can use it just once: I wish I had an LE Candle of Invocation. Then use the Efreeti loop.

[Morbis Meh]

Actually... I have an interesting suggestion, Mercede's Lackey had a brilliant idea of magic called 'Wild Magic' basically it was the ability to ask the wild powers that be for a service or an item and based on the severity of the quest they had to do a task/service of equal value. So if they wished for their wounds to be healed they may just have to go and help a local orphanage. Why would they do it? They are under compulsion to do it, a Gaes, this way you got a built in plot hook and not massive consequences. heck have the rune stone as a method of establishing a link with an old god or something... I think it is a pretty cool idea that is definitely not abusable in the sense that you control the cost of the wish every time. That's just my 2 cents (actually 5 since Canada got rid of the penny... damn you!)

[ahenobarbi]

Morbis Meh I like your idea (it doesn't have the problems that original idea has and makes more sense fluff-wise (to me)) but...


Gaes

Geas (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/geas).

[lunar2]

(Charm person on level 1 commoner)
(Ready action to kill the commoner after ([s]he|it) uses wish)
Wow my new best friend, here have this you just need to say put this on "I wanna 25000 gp" and it will come true! Please try it out (because we are friends and everything).
(kill the commoner, take the wealth)



Well that would make things a bit less broken. Still even one proper wish could easily break game (and even without custom magic items).



Ask a bard?

you didn't get the part about the controller of the wish being the one who pays for it, not the wearer of the necklace. either you find the current owner of the necklace (who is definitely not a level 1 commoner, and probably not a level appropriate encounter) and convince them to grant you a wish, or you are the owner, and you pay for the wish. if you give the necklace to a commoner, and then force them to grant you a wish, you still pay for the wish, because the power is still under your control. you haven't relinquished the power, just the necklace, and the necklace doesn't grant the wishes, just the power to make the wishes. it's a simple concept: you make the wish, you pay the price, no matter how long a chain of proxies you put between you and the necklace. the only way to bypass that is to buy a single wish from someone who already controls the power, and pay fair market value for it (or other appropriate trade, such as a quest).

@bard. sure, bardic knowledge is going to say "hey, isn't that the thing from that story about that place where the queen needed a new name or she was gonna die? i think it grants wishes to whoever owns it".

[ahenobarbi]

you didn't get the part about the controller of the wish being the one who pays for it, not the wearer of the necklace. either you find the current owner of the necklace (who is definitely not a level 1 commoner, and probably not a level appropriate encounter) and convince them to grant you a wish, or you are the owner, and you pay for the wish. if you give the necklace to a commoner, and then force them to grant you a wish, you still pay for the wish, because the power is still under your control. you haven't relinquished the power, just the necklace, and the necklace doesn't grant the wishes, just the power to make the wishes. it's a simple concept: you make the wish, you pay the price, no matter how long a chain of proxies you put between you and the necklace. the only way to bypass that is to buy a single wish from someone who already controls the power, and pay fair market value for it (or other appropriate trade, such as a quest).

What are you talking writing about? I just gave the necklace to my new friend commoner, because I like him so much. Well his kinda dumb so I told him how to use it. He used it, totally on his own.

The sad thing is when I saw all the gold I got jealous and slew him. Well I'm sure he's in a better place. And he has no use for that gold and necklace now, so I'm going to take it.

(I think you did not understand. The commoner was tricked but he did control make the wish on his own.)


@bard. sure, bardic knowledge is going to say "hey, isn't that the thing from that story about that place where the queen needed a new name or she was gonna die? i think it grants wishes to whoever owns it".

I meant ask a Wizard, Bard or Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm) i the item seriously hurts user it will be in legends.

[Zanthy1]

Oh! Oh! I have an idea!

Wouldn't it be cool that each use, depending upon the amount of change is used, transformed the user in some way? Like eventually becoming a runestone or something themselves?

I think I read a similar storyline somewhere where each use of a power turned the character into question more crystalline or something. So if the PC did something vastly heroic...or whatever...with the power, it would transform them immediately into a new runestone.

With that said, regardless of what you choose, just discuss the idea with your players OOC. See what their thoughts are...would they abuse it or use it to make the story epic? Only you and your players can really determine how this would play out.

This is sort of like the Taint idea posted earlier. While it does sound cool, I do not wish to have that be an actual thing. I'd prefer immediate results to any change the player makes. Rather than slowly deteriorating their humanity (or elfdom, dwarfanity, whatever) I'd rather it be huge. For example, Player alters reality so that all Water in the world is not pink. The side effect, determined by heir role to see how severe, could be something like their skin changes color to they become allergic to anything pink, or that they become sickened by anything pink that sort of thing.

Parties who immediately "Identify" any thing they find in a dungeon I consider meta-gamers. Touching things is what the adventures all about, and not doing anything without a knowing exactly what it is, is silly. Why would the Barbarian not want to touch the pretty rock that has weird scribbles on it? Maybe the wizard wants to study it more, but most often not every character in a party are wizards. Sometimes the surprise is all the answer.

As to the suicidal guy, I do not understand why you would do that, because your new character would have none of the stuff the old one had. You just wasted everyones time by going through all this just to off yourself to play something else.

@ahenobarbi, you seem to missed the point where I said that it wasnt actually a necklace, and that the power would only be given to the appropriate one who touched the Runestone, like a prophecy child. Lunar is right in that you have the power, you pay the price. You cannot gain the power simply by touching the stone, it would be a plot point that there is a stone for each party member, so no commoner will be using this power.

I really like the idea about making it a connection to a old god, and doing the exchange thing

[ahenobarbi]

Parties who immediately "Identify" any thing they find in a dungeon I consider meta-gamers. Touching things is what the adventures all about, and not doing anything without a knowing exactly what it is, is silly.

It's just the opposite. Adventurers who are not careful are meta gaming (nah, let's not bother with checking and just try it, after all it's just some made-up character wo will be hurt, and DM wouldn't kill it right away).


Why would the Barbarian not want to touch the pretty rock that has weird scribbles on it? Maybe the wizard wants to study it more, but most often not every character in a party are wizards. Sometimes the surprise is all the answer.

Because last time he did it it blew up and almost killed him.


As to the suicidal guy, I do not understand why you would do that, because your new character would have none of the stuff the old one had. You just wasted everyones time by going through all this just to off yourself to play something else.

But the party would, right?


@ahenobarbi, you seem to missed the point where I said that it wasnt actually a necklace, and that the power would only be given to the appropriate one who touched the Runestone, like a prophecy child.

Nope I didn't miss that. I was discussing someone else idea :)

[Shining Wrath]

I'd keep it in my Handy Haversack, so to speak, and use it only in extreme situations. Party has been rolling single digits all battle, tank just dropped, wizard low on spells, rogue trapped in corner by large people with pointy metal objects ... yeah, I'll sacrifice a finger to avoid TPK.

[Zanthy1]

If he had been previously blown up then yeah, but that isn't happening. Being normal and just going through an area and touching things, nothing wrong with that. No one assumes the DM won't kill them, and people who do deserve to get their character killed. Yes it is a made up character, one that hopefully the player is connected to.

Potentially the party could benefit from his final use of the power, but the chances of them sharing their wealth gained at the cost of their friend's life with a new party member should never happen. Plus, not every person is out to trick the system. They are also assuming that as a DM, I would let them roll up a new character after abusing my trust in their capabilities to make this a fun experience for everyone.

As to your last point, you are right, I had misread and misunderstood that, I apologize, but would request that you take that debate to a different thread, as it is not the topic of this thread, though the suggestion of it is appreciated.

@shining, I was thinking along those lines originally with this idea :smallsmile:

[Ketiara]

It's too risky if you ask me.

[Gandariel]

i would make it so that:

You get one free wish per week.

Whatever is your wish, DM decides how strong is that and tells you how risky would that be. Up to you to take it or not.

For example:
I wish for this guy (who died yesterday) to be resurrected.
Nothing incredible, a 7th level cleric spell.
DM decides: nothing on a roll of 1-90, minor consequence on 91-99. BAD thing on 100.

I wish this guy (who died yesterday) to be resurrected, with NO level loss

DM says: ok, nothing on a roll of 1-50, the spell works but YOU lose a level on 51-99, BAD THING on 100

And so on.
Of course, divinations and magic items will explicitely NOT work with this.
Also, stupid wishes (i wish for no bad things when i wish stuff) don't work, and broken wishes (custom magic item! stupid amount of money! give me 10 levels!) have ridiculously high failure chance


You can have a table of minor(some guy hates you from now on, you lose a moderately costly item, skin turns yellow), moderate(permanently lose 1d10 hp, 2 damage to a random stat, an enemy of yours gets to know your weaknesses), and severe consequences(blindness, lose 20 hp permanently, -2 to all stats, the person you care most about dies, everyone is unfriendly to you).

Also, every wish you ask for increases the risk, of course (The DM increases by one or two % the chance of bad stuff happening)

[Twilightwyrm]

I might wish for a Scroll of Wish to give to the party Wizard, so they could learn the spell for future use. Then I'd likely never use it again, unless I was looking to kamikaze something.

[lunar2]

What are you talking writing about? I just gave the necklace to my new friend commoner, because I like him so much. Well his kinda dumb so I told him how to use it. He used it, totally on his own.

The sad thing is when I saw all the gold I got jealous and slew him. Well I'm sure he's in a better place. And he has no use for that gold and necklace now, so I'm going to take it.

(I think you did not understand. The commoner was tricked but he did control make the wish on his own.)



I meant ask a Wizard, Bard or Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm) i the item seriously hurts user it will be in legends.

part 1: and the DM says no.

part 2: it doesn't seriously hurt the user, though. you lose a bit of memory that you don't even remember having (because of course, you don't remember what you've forgotten). only if someone who knows you well is actually paying attention as you lose those memories would it even come to light.

example: you used to have 10 ranks in jump. you lose 4 ranks in jump, and can't make the same jump you made yesterday, even though you took ten both times. you won't remember being able to make that jump by taking ten, you'll think you got lucky yesterday, or you'll remember slamming into the side of whatever you were trying to jump over. you're remaining memories will be altered so that you don't even realize anything's changed. i probably should have explained that a bit better from the get go.

[Zanthy1]

i would make it so that:

You get one free wish per week.

Whatever is your wish, DM decides how strong is that and tells you how risky would that be. Up to you to take it or not.

For example:
I wish for this guy (who died yesterday) to be resurrected.
Nothing incredible, a 7th level cleric spell.
DM decides: nothing on a roll of 1-90, minor consequence on 91-99. BAD thing on 100.

I wish this guy (who died yesterday) to be resurrected, with NO level loss

DM says: ok, nothing on a roll of 1-50, the spell works but YOU lose a level on 51-99, BAD THING on 100

And so on.
Of course, divinations and magic items will explicitely NOT work with this.
Also, stupid wishes (i wish for no bad things when i wish stuff) don't work, and broken wishes (custom magic item! stupid amount of money! give me 10 levels!) have ridiculously high failure chance


You can have a table of minor(some guy hates you from now on, you lose a moderately costly item, skin turns yellow), moderate(permanently lose 1d10 hp, 2 damage to a random stat, an enemy of yours gets to know your weaknesses), and severe consequences(blindness, lose 20 hp permanently, -2 to all stats, the person you care most about dies, everyone is unfriendly to you).

Also, every wish you ask for increases the risk, of course (The DM increases by one or two % the chance of bad stuff happening)

This is sort of what I am thinking yeah. I am slowly editing this entire idea until its ready for scrutiny again, and then will post it up and see what people think. Might take a couple days what with my availability to have fun, which I won't get until friday :smallwink: