View Full Version : The OOTS Screenplay Initiative
Continuing the discussion had in the first couple pages of this thread, http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269150, this new thread is dedicated to plotting out the story of the OOTS Live Action movie(s.)
As of right now, there seems to be a loose consensus that should it be movie as opposed to a TV show, it should be a two parter. This OP may be amended as more crucial decisions become made.
Note: There has been no official announcement, or even any indication at all, really, that an OOTS movie is or will ever be in the works as far as I can tell. With that in mind, have fun discussing the possibility.
Decisions so far:
Haley is the main character. Some characters, like O-Chul and Shinjo, will be combined. There will be two movies. Here is a plot summary.
-Dorukan's dungeon. Meet the Order.
-Introduce Eugene/Roy's backtory. Starmetal, establish characters, kill Dragon. Introduce Haley's backstory.
-Xykon and Redcloak and MitD escaping. Find hobgoblins.
-Miko arrives and escorts Order to AC.
-Arrive in AC, meet O-Chul/Hinjo hybrid. Summon Celia to defend them in the tribunal, (Celia will already be Roy's girlfriend.) Meet Shojo. Learn of Snarl.
-Lead up to Miko's fall, not quite sure how yet.
-Goblins marching on AC. Learn about Crimson Mantle.
-Battle prep. Get to know O-Chul better. Elan and Haley romance almost happens.
-The actual battle itself. Meet Tsukiko. Haley and Elan become a couple. Party is split as per comic.
-Short heaven sequence. A little with Eugene and then the Archon. Months pass, the archon looks down.
-The fleet. Not much is happening. We will imply people are starving and such. V is losing his mind, guilty over leaving the city, and trying to contact Haley. Elan is a little broody and depressed. Durkon is helping out around the fleet best he can.
-Meet Gobbtopia and the rebellion Haley is leading.
-Xykon torturing O-Chul. Redlocak interrogating O-Chul. O-Chul and MitD interact.
-Haley decides to steal the Phylactery.
-V leaves the fleet, dragon encounter.
-Haley enacting daring thievery plan.
-V selling his soul for the power. Familicide. V 'fixing' everything.
-Haley steals the phylactery.
-Intercut between Xykon and V battling and Haley and Co. rushing through the sewers with the Phylactery
-Xykon and V battle goes similar to how it did in the comic, with V saving O-Chul then escaping.
-Redcloak ambushes the resistance in the sewers, crushing them. He tracks down Haley and steals back the Phylactery.
-Haley, Celia, and Belkar escape city. V escapes city. They communicate and the party is reunited.
-Redcloak goes into his study. Tsukiko is there. Redcloak kills Tsukiko scene plays out as per comic. Redcloak lies to Xykon that the Phylactery was lost in the sewers and it will take a bit to find it.
-Cut back to the main party. Roy is alive. Elan and Haley are holding hands. They are all looking out at the fleet. O-Chul gives Roy the list of Xykons spells and the general location of the rest of the gates then says he will be off to lead the fleet. Everyone assumes that under O-Chuls leadership it will be fine, so there is closure. Roy says it is time to go for the next gate. Dramatic backdrop of the fleet sailing away.
-Last few frames are of Redcloak alone in a dark study, pounding away at a replica Phylactery with the real one right next to it, clearly making a duplicate. An eyepatch and a sinister look on his face. Cut to black.
Major Things Being Cut Out: (At least for this movie. Bold text means we plan on introducing it in at least some form in Part II.)
-Most of the encounters in Dorukan's dungeon.
-The Linear Guild
-Cliffport
-Haley's Mutism Sub-Plot
-Julio Scoundrel
-Greysky
-Most of the sub-plots with the fleet, (including Therkla.)
Rakoa
2013-02-05, 07:50 PM
I support the concept of this thread. The movie you plotted out was very insightful and quite likely to actually happen. I look forward to reading through the additions made to this thread and possibly making some of my own.
Zolkabro
2013-02-06, 01:01 AM
Awesome! I'm glad we have our own thread to do this on now, then.
I'll repost various details:
Cast list so far:
Roy Greenhilt: Shaun Parkes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaun_Parkes)?
Elan: Neil Patrick Harris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Patrick_Harris)
Haley Starshine: Felicia Day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felicia_Day)/Jewel Staite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewel_Staite)/Christina Hendricks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christina_Hendricks)
Belkar Bitterleaf: Warwick Davis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warwick_Davis)
Durkon Thundershield: Brian Blessed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Blessed)
Vaarsuvius: Tilda Swinton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilda_Swinton)
Lord Xykon: Bill Nighy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Nighy)
The Monster in the Darkness: Robin Williams (voice) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Williams)
The Demon Roaches: Muppets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Muppets)
Tsukiko: Helena Bonham Carter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_Bonham_Carter)
Nale: Neil Patrick Harris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Patrick_Harris)
Sabine: Summer Glau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_Glau)?
Horace Greenhilt: Samuel L Jackson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_L_Jackson)
Eugene Greenhilt/Roy's Archon: Morgan Freeman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_Freeman)
Ian Starshine: Billy Connolly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Connolly)
General Tarquin: Neil Patrick Harris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Patrick_Harris)
Soon Kim: Jackie Chan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Chan)
Lirian: Cate Blanchett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cate_Blanchett)
Girard Draketooth: Leonardo di Caprio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_di_Caprio)
Dorukan: Ian McKellan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_McKellan)
Miko Miyazaki: Michelle Yeoh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Yeoh)
O-Chul: Chow Yun-fat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chow_Yun-fat)
Plot outline so far:
Haley main character
Open with Dungeon of Dorukan as an opening montage. Maybe briefly include the Linear guild? Don't tell the audience much, just enable everyone to go "We meet again!" the next time they meet.
Montage ends, they go on starmetal quest for the sword. (Also, I think that when they find the dragon hoard should be when Haley takes out the letter and we find out about her dad) Cut bandit camp, just go straight to the dragons lair and have a big fight scene.
All of the Order needs to be properly introduced during this quest.
Then introduce Miko, go to Azure city, details of journey TBD.
Trial, Shojo's death, blah blah blah. All this is TBD.
Suggestion: Crayons of time is an animation in OOTS art style? Just a nod to the comic I think would be nice to have.
Big battle.
Roy in heaven, giving him the spotlight at last. But get more quickly to him scrying down on Haley, because she is the centre. We shouldn't follow her straight from the battle, though: Cutting the formation of the Resistance was a good move by the Giant.
Follow her in the Resistance, etc.
Details for V's evil escapades are TBD.
Climax: cut back and forth between V vs Xykon and the Resistance being crushed. Haley is the one who barely escapes, then escapes the city with V and O-Chul.
Ending on a mystery, as we would just have seen Redcloak be uncovered and then him killing Tsukiko, before the finale scene:
Finish first movie at strip 672 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html), because it is good to finish on a high, with the Order leaving to go on their next adventure, finally back together.
I think that's everything we've sorted so far. Anything else, or is that good?
EDIT: Also, we're just guessing how long it's going to end up when we say two movies. Nobody knows how much the Giant has up his sleeve, for all we know, the story is barely getting started and this is going to have to be the first of 3.
Awesome! I'm glad we have our own thread to do this on now, then.
I'll repost various details:
Cast list so far:
Roy Greenhilt: Shaun Parkes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaun_Parkes)?
Elan: Neil Patrick Harris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Patrick_Harris)
Haley Starshine: Felicia Day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felicia_Day)
Belkar Bitterleaf: Warwick Davis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warwick_Davis)
Durkon Thundershield: Brian Blessed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Blessed)
Vaarsuvius: Tilda Swinton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilda_Swinton)
Lord Xykon: Bill Nighy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Nighy)
The Monster in the Darkness: Robin Williams (voice) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Williams)
The Demon Roaches: Muppets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Muppets)
Tsukiko: Helena Bonham Carter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_Bonham_Carter)
Nale: Neil Patrick Harris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Patrick_Harris)
Sabine: Summer Glau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_Glau)?
Horace Greenhilt: Samuel L Jackson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_L_Jackson)
Eugene Greenhilt/Roy's Archon: Morgan Freeman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_Freeman)
Ian Starshine: Billy Connolly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Connolly)
General Tarquin: Neil Patrick Harris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Patrick_Harris)
Soon Kim: Jackie Chan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Chan)
Lirian: Cate Blanchett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cate_Blanchett)
Girard Draketooth: Leonardo di Caprio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_di_Caprio)
Dorukan: Ian McKellan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_McKellan)
Miko Miyazaki: Michelle Yeoh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Yeoh)
O-Chul: Chow Yun-fat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chow_Yun-fat)
Hinjo: Chang Chen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang_Chen)
Plot outline so far:
Haley main character
Open with Dungeon of Dorukan as an opening montage. Maybe briefly include the Linear guild? Don't tell the audience much, just enable everyone to go "We meet again!" the next time they meet.
Montage ends, they go on starmetal quest for the sword. (Also, I think that when they find the dragon hoard should be when Haley takes out the letter and we find out about her dad) Cut bandit camp, just go straight to the dragons lair and have a big fight scene.
All of the Order needs to be properly introduced during this quest.
Then introduce Miko, go to Azure city, details of journey TBD.
Trial, Shojo's death, blah blah blah. All this is TBD.
Suggestion: Crayons of time is an animation in OOTS art style? Just a nod to the comic I think would be nice to have.
Big battle.
Roy in heaven, giving him the spotlight at last. But get more quickly to him scrying down on Haley, because she is the centre. We shouldn't follow her straight from the battle, though: Cutting the formation of the Resistance was a good move by the Giant.
Follow her in the Resistance, etc.
Details for V's evil escapades are TBD.
Climax: cut back and forth between V vs Xykon and the Resistance being crushed. Haley is the one who barely escapes, then escapes the city with V and O-Chul.
Ending on a mystery, as we would just have seen Redcloak be uncovered and then him killing Tsukiko, before the finale scene:
Finish first movie at strip 672 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html), because it is good to finish on a high, with the Order leaving to go on their next adventure, finally back together.
I think that's everything we've sorted so far. Anything else, or is that good?
EDIT: Also, we're just guessing how long it's going to end up when we say two movies. Nobody knows how much the Giant has up his sleeve, for all we know, the story is barely getting started and this is going to have to be the first of 3.
Nice, man. Looks good so far. The more I think about it, though, the more I lean towards meshing O-chul and Shinjo into one character. It allows us to focus on one a reasonable amount, rather than both fading into obscurity. It also gives us closure with the fleet, like, oh, the leader is finally back!
Also, it lets us do a little bit of interaction with Ochul and MitD, which I get a feeling will end up becoming important later in the story, without the audience going, wait who was this guy again? We could keep Shinjo in the story as the guy who is third in command and watching over the fleet in the meantime, maybe. But I think promoting O-chul will make for a more fluid script.
One more note. Right after the successful Starmetal quest, we should cut to Xykon and Redcloak. Establish they are alive, do a little exposition on their story/dynamic, and then show them finding the Hobgoblins. By the time we cut back to the Order, Roy has already got his sword repaired and Miko has already had time to track them down.
Tebryn
2013-02-06, 03:34 AM
I support the concept of this thread. The movie you plotted out was very insightful and quite likely to actually happen. I look forward to reading through the additions made to this thread and possibly making some of my own.
Is it? First you need to get permission from The Giant to even make the thing since it's his IP and well...good luck getting that. If this manages to get the Giants OK I doubt he'll want someone else writing the script for the movie based off his own thing. Then you'll need to get money to do the thing, since I doubt the Giant is going to put forth his own life savings for the thing. Then you'll need to get the actors slated for the roles to agree to even act in the thing. The names listed, a great many of them are rather high billed actors who will require more money to hire on. I mean, Morgan Freeman and Cate Blanchett don't come cheap if they come at all especially since they're in bit parts while someone like Felicia Day is in a lead role and...is much less famous than those two.
So if you can
1. Get the Giants OK
2. Deal with the script and casting torn to pieces
3. Get the money required to make a blockbuster film (Millions of dollars)
4. Somehow manage to convince the Giant that all your casting choices are spot on.
5. Get said casting choices to be hired on.
You're still faced with a ton of hurdles. Time, locations, travel expenses, catering for the film crew and the actors who aren't going to settle for eating McDonalds or the like while filming. Lodging for the entire crew and stars and these are just logistics, forget advertising costs and theater rights.
To say that this is as unlikely to happen as the seas turning to chocolate pudding is about the most apt comparison I can make. It could happen but it's more likely that the seas will remain what they are and this "movie" will fall short just like every other attempt that's been made on these forums.
I support the concept of this thread. The movie you plotted out was very insightful and quite likely to actually happen. I look forward to reading through the additions made to this thread and possibly making some of my own.
Thanks, man, I appreciate it. (: Look forward to you positing your opinions.
Is it? First you need to get permission from The Giant to even make the thing since it's his IP and well...good luck getting that. If this manages to get the Giants OK I doubt he'll want someone else writing the script for the movie based off his own thing. Then you'll need to get money to do the thing, since I doubt the Giant is going to put forth his own life savings for the thing. Then you'll need to get the actors slated for the roles to agree to even act in the thing. The names listed, a great many of them are rather high billed actors who will require more money to hire on. I mean, Morgan Freeman and Cate Blanchett don't come cheap if they come at all especially since they're in bit parts while someone like Felicia Day is in a lead role and...is much less famous than those two.
So if you can
1. Get the Giants OK
2. Deal with the script and casting torn to pieces
3. Get the money required to make a blockbuster film (Millions of dollars)
4. Somehow manage to convince the Giant that all your casting choices are spot on.
5. Get said casting choices to be hired on.
You're still faced with a ton of hurdles. Time, locations, travel expenses, catering for the film crew and the actors who aren't going to settle for eating McDonalds or the like while filming. Lodging for the entire crew and stars and these are just logistics, forget advertising costs and theater rights.
To say that this is as unlikely to happen as the seas turning to chocolate pudding is about the most apt comparison I can make. It could happen but it's more likely that the seas will remain what they are and this "movie" will fall short just like every other attempt that's been made on these forums.
Hehe, hey, I know how difficult it is to produce a ten minute short film. Much less a feature length movie requiring high budget special effects. I don't have any opinion one way or another if OOTS will ever be adapted to other mediums. I lean towards a film deal as a 'probably not' thing since I have read zero indication of that from the Giant. Doesn't mean it is impossible, but I don't think it is a most likely thing.
At the same time, any people who would like to help plot a screenplay of OOTS and would hope that it could influence a future film? I highly doubt they expect to be the producers or expect that a whole movie will take off from the forums. Even getting a spec script purchased as an option is a lofty goal, and not the reason I am doing this, but at the same time it isn't as absurd as you are claiming since of course other people would take care of the logistics. Thousands and thousands of options are purchased every year.
Nitpicking, though, I wouldn't be surprised if the Giant did outsource a screenplay should he for whatever reason decide to do it. Screenwriting is its whole own animal. Note, I am not saying I expect to be the screenwriter.
Ultimately, it is a fun project and I'll enjoy working on adapting it. Its good practice and a good time no matter what happens. No one is pressuring the Giant to make a movie or saying we are going to pitch someone else's IP to movie studios. We are just plotting out a movie for OOTS among ourselves as a fun thing, I doubt the Giant would be upset about that. And if anything comes of it? Great! Otherwise, I still wouldn't say it failed.
Gnomish Wanderer
2013-02-06, 04:16 AM
Elan: Neil Patrick Harris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Patrick_Harris)
The Monster in the Darkness: Robin Williams (voice) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Williams)
Sabine: Summer Glau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_Glau)?
I hate these casting choices. As much as I love NPH, this is madness. Do not approve.
To explain: it feels like these actors were chosen because they were these actors rather than if they'd fit the characters at all. The other characters seem mostly good, save these three and perhaps Roy and Eugene. I don't see Morgan Freeman's soothing voice being grumpy enough. And Miko's actress looks too old.
@v NPH is not Elan. He's charming, but his forehead speaks of plots and schemes, which may work for Nale but is far too much nefariousness for Elan.
As much as I love NPH, this is madness. Do not approve.
He does seem a tad old. Anyway, I am not overly concerned with the casting myself but I do appreciate the effort of some of the really cool casting ideas of the other contributors so far. I'll have to give it more thought later, but I wonder, what is your biggest hang-up on NPH?
EDIT: Hmm, okay.
TheWombatOfDoom
2013-02-06, 08:57 AM
I'm actually not fond of felicia day for Haley, but think NPH might be able to pull off the dual role of Nale and Elan.
My suggestion for Haley still stands - Jewel Staite, who was Kalee in Firefly.
I'm also not sure about Morgan Freeman as Eugene...Eugene's too crotchetty. If you've seen Django, I've seen Samuel Jackson be crotchetty REALLY well. :smallsmile:
I'm actually not fond of felicia day for Haley, but think NPH might be able to pull off the dual role of Nale and Elan.
My suggestion for Haley still stands - Jewel Staite, who was Kalee in Firefly.
I'm also not sure about Morgan Freeman as Eugene...Eugene's too crotchetty. If you've seen Django, I've seen Samuel Jackson be crotchetty REALLY well. :smallsmile:
Sammy could play Eugene. I don't think he 'would' play Eugene, though.
I suppose the casting is all in fun, though. If anyone did make an OOTS movie it would probably have to be mostly no name actors, since they would need a lot of the budget for sets, special effects, costuming, etc. One or two big names, maybe. But a long list of big names is still useful in that regard since you'll probably fail quite a few so you can keep going down the list.
I'm a big believer in casting people who played on off-air TV shows that the target demographic likely watched. They can be recognizable but often aren't doing work that pays them too much. So you don't have to spend a sixth of your production budget on one stars.
Zolkabro
2013-02-06, 01:56 PM
Is it? First you need to get permission from The Giant to even make the thing since it's his IP and well...good luck getting that. If this manages to get the Giants OK I doubt he'll want someone else writing the script for the movie based off his own thing. Then you'll need to get money to do the thing, since I doubt the Giant is going to put forth his own life savings for the thing. Then you'll need to get the actors slated for the roles to agree to even act in the thing. The names listed, a great many of them are rather high billed actors who will require more money to hire on. I mean, Morgan Freeman and Cate Blanchett don't come cheap if they come at all especially since they're in bit parts while someone like Felicia Day is in a lead role and...is much less famous than those two.
So if you can
1. Get the Giants OK
2. Deal with the script and casting torn to pieces
3. Get the money required to make a blockbuster film (Millions of dollars)
4. Somehow manage to convince the Giant that all your casting choices are spot on.
5. Get said casting choices to be hired on.
You're still faced with a ton of hurdles. Time, locations, travel expenses, catering for the film crew and the actors who aren't going to settle for eating McDonalds or the like while filming. Lodging for the entire crew and stars and these are just logistics, forget advertising costs and theater rights.
To say that this is as unlikely to happen as the seas turning to chocolate pudding is about the most apt comparison I can make. It could happen but it's more likely that the seas will remain what they are and this "movie" will fall short just like every other attempt that's been made on these forums.
You're completely missing the point! We aren't doing this because it'll get made: the odds are it never will. Far too narrow of an audience, and hollywood doesn't appreciate pure cool, they'll never accept it.
So why are we doing it?
FUN!
It's great fun planning this out, a really interesting challenge that we'll enjoy doing. If you'll enjoy it too, then please, join us! Never mind the what ifs, the but hows, let's just plan out a movie and enjoy ourselves. :smallbiggrin:
I hate these casting choices. As much as I love NPH, this is madness. Do not approve.
To explain: it feels like these actors were chosen because they were these actors rather than if they'd fit the characters at all. The other characters seem mostly good, save these three and perhaps Roy and Eugene. I don't see Morgan Freeman's soothing voice being grumpy enough. And Miko's actress looks too old.
@v NPH is not Elan. He's charming, but his forehead speaks of plots and schemes, which may work for Nale but is far too much nefariousness for Elan.
Um. While I am happy to take suggestions and criticism on board, I have to say that a big forehead is hardly that significant in deciding this.
As for your other points: You're right, Miko's actor is almost 50, so maybe somebody younger should be cast. I didn't really have any other ideas, though, I don't know many Oriental actors. Yeoh is great, but if she's too old, anybody got any other ideas?
As for Morgan Freeman, he can do sassy pretty well. But that is why I also had him as possibly Roy's Archon: Because that should sound more soothing and holy.
What I think this comes down too is what take we want to have on Eugene. Either we can have him exceedingly bad-tempered, angry, grumpy, and snarling, or (and this is what I was aiming at with Freeman) is something more light-hearted. He would be equally grumpy, but not so snarly and bad-tempered. Less annoyed rages, more sarcasm, more judgemental, more immature and child-like. And this I think Freeman would excel at.
I'm actually not fond of felicia day for Haley, but think NPH might be able to pull off the dual role of Nale and Elan.
My suggestion for Haley still stands - Jewel Staite, who was Kalee in Firefly.
I'm also not sure about Morgan Freeman as Eugene...Eugene's too crotchetty. If you've seen Django, I've seen Samuel Jackson be crotchetty REALLY well. :smallsmile:
Jewel Staite is a good suggestion, Kalee was great (although that's all I've seen of her) although she doesn't have the red hair... Still, that's another solid option.
Samuel L. Jackson could do either Horace or Eugene equally well, so whichever one of these he is depends entirely on whether there is a replacement for the other. If there are possibilities for Eugene, but not Horace, he gets Horace, and visa versa.
Nice, man. Looks good so far. The more I think about it, though, the more I lean towards meshing O-chul and Shinjo into one character. It allows us to focus on one a reasonable amount, rather than both fading into obscurity. It also gives us closure with the fleet, like, oh, the leader is finally back!
Also, it lets us do a little bit of interaction with Ochul and MitD, which I get a feeling will end up becoming important later in the story, without the audience going, wait who was this guy again? We could keep Shinjo in the story as the guy who is third in command and watching over the fleet in the meantime, maybe. But I think promoting O-chul will make for a more fluid script
I would agree, but I think the death of Shojo is a massive plot point that can't be skipped. What you're saying is certainly valid, though, it would make the character mean more for us, and make things easier. Maybe merge O-Chul and Hinjo instead? Shojo is killed, shock, horror, Miko's gone nuts, her and Roy battle it out, and O-Chul is called in to take charge. But he is captured in the battle before an heir is named, and then the struggles on the fleet are between Paladins trying to take up his role, v Nobles attempting the same. While what you were saying would flow better, I think that the Shojo's murder is too important to gloss over.
One more note. Right after the successful Starmetal quest, we should cut to Xykon and Redcloak. Establish they are alive, do a little exposition on their story/dynamic, and then show them finding the Hobgoblins. By the time we cut back to the Order, Roy has already got his sword repaired and Miko has already had time to track them down.
Agreed, that's a good place to stick that in.
You're completely missing the point! We aren't doing this because it'll get made: the odds are it never will. Far too narrow of an audience, and hollywood doesn't appreciate pure cool, they'll never accept it.
So why are we doing it?
FUN!
It's great fun planning this out, a really interesting challenge that we'll enjoy doing. If you'll enjoy it too, then please, join us! Never mind the what ifs, the but hows, let's just plan out a movie and enjoy ourselves. :smallbiggrin:
Um. While I am happy to take suggestions and criticism on board, I have to say that a big forehead is hardly that significant in deciding this.
As for your other points: You're right, Miko's actor is almost 50, so maybe somebody younger should be cast. I didn't really have any other ideas, though, I don't know many Oriental actors. Yeoh is great, but if she's too old, anybody got any other ideas?
As for Morgan Freeman, he can do sassy pretty well. But that is why I also had him as possibly Roy's Archon: Because that should sound more soothing and holy.
What I think this comes down too is what take we want to have on Eugene. Either we can have him exceedingly bad-tempered, angry, grumpy, and snarling, or (and this is what I was aiming at with Freeman) is something more light-hearted. He would be equally grumpy, but not so snarly and bad-tempered. Less annoyed rages, more sarcasm, more judgemental, more immature and child-like. And this I think Freeman would excel at.
Jewel Staite is a good suggestion, Kalee was great (although that's all I've seen of her) although she doesn't have the red hair... Still, that's another solid option.
Samuel L. Jackson could do either Horace or Eugene equally well, so whichever one of these he is depends entirely on whether there is a replacement for the other. If there are possibilities for Eugene, but not Horace, he gets Horace, and visa versa.
I would agree, but I think the death of Shojo is a massive plot point that can't be skipped. What you're saying is certainly valid, though, it would make the character mean more for us, and make things easier. Maybe merge O-Chul and Hinjo instead? Shojo is killed, shock, horror, Miko's gone nuts, her and Roy battle it out, and O-Chul is called in to take charge. But he is captured in the battle before an heir is named, and then the struggles on the fleet are between Paladins trying to take up his role, v Nobles attempting the same. While what you were saying would flow better, I think that the Shojo's murder is too important to gloss over.
Agreed, that's a good place to stick that in.
I actually meant to say Hinjo, sorry. (: So yeah, just replace Shojo with Hinjo in my previous post, so it seems we are in agreement.
Also, if we want a wider target audience, hear me out. OOTS the musical.
Zolkabro
2013-02-06, 02:01 PM
I actually meant to say Hinjo, sorry. (: So yeah, just replace Shojo with Hinjo in my previous post, so it seems we are in agreement.
Oh, right. Awesome, all sorted then! :smallbiggrin:
Oh, right. Awesome, all sorted then! :smallbiggrin:
Alrighty, cool.
General breakdown I'm thinking of. Once we've settled on stuff, I'll work on seeing if I can fit it into either the 8 turn or 5 act Hollywood structures.
-Dorukan's dungeon. Meet the Order.
-Introduce Eugene/Roy's backtory. Starmetal, establish characters, kill Dragon. Introduce Haley's backstory.
-Xykon and Redcloak and MitD escaping. Find hobgoblins.
-Miko arrives and escorts Order to AC
-Arrive in AC, meet O-Chul/Hinjo hybrid. Meet Shojo. (Probably skip the
whole trial sequence, and instead have Shojo explain the Snarl and the ramifications of the Orders actions and then ask for an explanation in more of a tribunal way than a habius corpus way. It is simpler and quicker.)
-(Plot Point X, see below.)
-A goblin army is heading to AC lead by a lich. We can talk a bit about goblins vs. AC and maybe even insert some of the SoD story. We could do a little thing where someone, maybe O-chul maybe Miko maybe Shojo, is talking about the crimson mantle and killing the goblins in a biased slant towards the paladins, but then superimpose the video from Redcloaks POV, him running away from the Paladins and taking the crimson mantle and escaping with One-Eye. Though that is all that One-Eye would ever be in the story, sadly. It would be a good set up for finishing Redcloaks story, later.
-Battle prep. We've been focusing on Haley a lot, and we can really emphasize her and Elan's romance here. Don't make it happen quite yet, but maybe when O-Chul makes Haley scared of the big battle she and Elan stay in the same room but don't have sex or something.
-The actual battle itself. We show Team Evil's side occasionally, and meet Tsukiko. As the party is losing the battle, maybe Haley has to go retrieve Roy's body and tells Elan to run for the boats. Maybe she confesses her love here and runs into the fray with Belkar. Everyone else gets to the fleet. Battle ends.
-Short heaven sequence. A little with Eugene and then the Archon. Months pass, the archon looks down.
-The fleet. Not much is happening. We will imply people are starving and such. V is losing his mind, guilty over leaving the city, and trying to contact Haley. Elan is a little broody and depressed. Durkon is helping out around the fleet best he can.
-The rebellion. Probably start off with Haley leading a group of rebels to free the slaves. Tsukiko makes a comeback. Haley and Co. win this round and we find out what they've been doing.
-Tsukiko reports to Xykon, Xykon is torturing O-Chul, ("I think he got a little closer this time." Make Xykon really, truly evil.) I actually want to have Redcloak interrupt it and get flustered and then take him away. We will end on Tsukiko starting her report to Xykon, which will be followed up on later. I think we should seriously consider the whole, "Throw the townsfolk into the Rift" interrogation scene followed by O-Chul thrown into his cell and a little interaction between O-Chul and MitD implying MitD is good hearted. Also, we can learn what else we need to know of Redcloaks backstory and we can actually learn Xykon and Redcloaks motivation.
-Haley again. Maybe one more thing of normal resistance action. Then I think we should have Haley figure out how Phylacteries work and plan an operation to steal it. Yes, I know, it doesn't happen. But I think it will make things tidier as we go along. Also, there can be some mention of Haley's greed and thievery being used towards a selfless purpose now, so it is the moment in the script where the Hero confronts and overcomes her flaw. Maybe she passes up some really AWESOME loot along the way.
-Back to the fleet. Vs mental state is really, really bad. Maybe Elan does something that annoys him and then he keeps getting requests to use his magic and he decides to leave, maybe to just find somewhere quiet to research his spells and maybe to go find his Elven master for help or something. Dragon encounter.
-Haley enacting daring thievery plan.
-V selling his soul for the power. Familicide. V 'fixing' everything.
-Haley steals the phylactery somehow. Redlocak has to track her down and get her immediately.
-Intercut between Xykon and V battling and Haley and Co. trying to evade Redcloak. Haley takes out one of Redcloaks eyes. Haley's plan is maybe to throw the Phylactery in the Rift and has some underground pathways/sewers to get there.
-Xykon and V battle goes similar to how it did in the comic, with V saving O-Chul then escaping.
-Redcloak ultimately tracks down the underground pathways/sewers. He sends hordes of goblins in every direction, slaughtering all the resistance. Then, with a few strong goblins, tracks down Haley and Belkar. Redcloak wins and ultimately retrieves Phylactery, but Haley and Belkar barely escape. Redcloak starts a sending spell to Xykon, then stutters halfway through, looks pensive, lightbulb moment, and tells Xykon that the resistance is dead but they haven't retrieved the Phylactery yet. The goblins look curious, Redcloak says something like, "I'm very sorry, may the Dark One himself repay you for your sacrifice." Then he kills the few goblins with him. (We want to end with Redcloak seeming really sinister and deadly since he is going to be the villain with more focus in the story even though the audience knows Xykon is stronger.)
-When Haley and Belkar make it out of the city, maybe some of the birds V sent find them since they are out of the Cloister. (Cloister can work different in the movie.) V gets word, and teleports the whole party together. Recap time, V loses his soul bindings, tearful reunion with Elan, etc. Durkon starts to raise Roy.
-Redcloak goes into his study. Tsukiko is there, as per the comic. We play it out pretty much the same way, explaining the ritual and the halves and laying out the Plan and how it betrays Xykon. Except, once Tsukiko gets eaten, Redcloak hides the Phylactery in some super secret portable hole in his quarters or some such and approaches Xykon. Redcloak tells Xykon that the Phylactery got lost in the sewers and they have to look for it by hand which he suspects will take a couple of weeks. Furious, Xykon orders Redcloak not to heal his eye and dismisses him before killing him out of anger.
-Cut back to the main party. Roy is alive. Elan and Haley are holding hands. They are all looking out at the fleet. O-Chul gives Roy the list of Xykons spells and the general location of the rest of the gates then says he will be off to lead the fleet. Everyone assumes that under O-Chuls leadership it will be fine, so there is closure. Roy says it is time to go for the next gate. Dramatic backdrop of the fleet sailing away.
-Last few frames are of Redcloak alone in a dark study, pounding away at a replica Phylactery with the real one right next to it, clearly making a duplicate. An eyepatch and a sinister look on his face. Cut to black.
X: Not sure what to put here, exactly. We could try and meet the Linear Guild, though I am leaning towards waiting to introduce and make them the primary antagonists in the first half of the second movie. I don't want to go back to Team Evil, since we will see their side during the battle. I don't want the Order to leave AC, Cliffport is too unimportant for the films plot. I don't want a totally unrelated sidequest. But we need something that will enable a couple weeks to pass, at least. One option is to place the starmetal quest here or else have the dragon slaying here somehow.
Another option is to add Kubota in here. A ten minute or so sub plot of someone trying to assassinate Shojo or something and the Order has to defend him to prove that they are good and loyal and didn't mean to cause harm when they blew up the gate. Unfortunately, this route wouldn't give us time to do Therkla's story. But it would give us time to maybe explore the Mark of Justice if we want. Like, Belkar attacks a guard or something and now he has to defend Shojo with the mark. We could just as easily ditch the whole Mark thing, too, we have a lot of options in this plot point.
Whatever happens, what IS important is that somehow plot point X gets Miko to truly hate the order and leads to her killing Shojo. That is what matters.
So anyway, clearly some of these need lots of fleshing out exactly how it will happen and I could be wrong on where some of the plot points need to go. What do ya'll agree with or disagree with? What am I missing? Should anything be reordered?
mawexzon
2013-02-06, 05:27 PM
I really think that each book should be a movie.
I really think that each book should be a movie.
It wouldn't work for the pace of film. The slow pace, numerous sub-plots, frequently changing villains, and total lack of following any Hollywood script structure would make it feel weird as a movie and make it a near impossible sell. Plus, it wouldn't be as dense, so it wouldn't be as good of a film. You could do a mini series where each hour long time slot is one book, though.
mawexzon
2013-02-06, 07:00 PM
It wouldn't work for the pace of film. The slow pace, numerous sub-plots, frequently changing villains, and total lack of following any Hollywood script structure would make it feel weird as a movie and make it a near impossible sell. Plus, it wouldn't be as dense, so it wouldn't be as good of a film. You could do a mini series where each hour long time slot is one book, though.
Well, the way OOTS is written, it would make condensing it into a 1 or 2 movies a bad idea, since it would require a heavy rewriting the main story since the main story work more as a "myth arc", and most of the adventures of the characters revolve around other things for most of the comic.
So i guess it would be brought better into live action as a miniseries, then.
Well, the way OOTS is written, it would make condensing it into a 1 or 2 movies a bad idea, since it would require a heavy rewriting the main story since the main story work more as a "myth arc", and most of the adventures of the characters revolve around other things for most of the comic.
So i guess it would be brought better into live action as a miniseries, then.
It would require a heavy rewrite, sure, but the main plot would stay the same. You'd lose a lot of details but it wouldn't be a bad movie. As good as the comic? Probably not. A good movie? No reason it couldn't be. Most adaptations deviate quite a bit from the source material while trying to retain the same core story. They can still be good. (Graphic novels often stay pretty true, but that is because Graphic novels usually emulate a cinematic style and plot similar to a movie. Graphic novel writing has more in common with screenwriting than novel writing, actually.)
A mini-series could probably capture the spirit and plot of OOTS in more entirety than a film, I'll grant you that. But the mini-series market is weird. Not very many get made, honestly. A movie would probably be easier to get interest for. Also, all of us have likely seen a lot of movies and probably have spent a lot more time analyzing films than mini-series. And for my part, I know about screenwriting for movies but not too much about television. So I think writing them as movies is going to make a better project here on GitP.
Howler Dagger
2013-02-06, 07:28 PM
I'm going to throw my voice in against NPH, and suggest Matt Smith (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1741002/) as Elan. I also say that I preefr Jewel Saite over Felicia Day.
Also, can someone please explain to me why Haley is the main character? Roy is and always has been the main character of the comics, and I see no reason to depart from that.
I'm going to throw my voice in against NPH, and suggest Matt Smith (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1741002/) as Elan. I also say that I preefr Jewel Saite over Felicia Day.
Also, can someone please explain to me why Haley is the main character? Roy is and always has been the main character of the comics, and I see no reason to depart from that.
Haley has a more compelling love story, she starts off as a subordinate and ends as a leader, she has the most character growth, and Roy is completely absent from what will end up being the climax of the movie, as well as pretty much an entire act. It is just easier to frame a movie around her, partly because of how the story progresses and partly because she is a more prototypical film protagonist.
Roy is a great character, but Haley just works a little better as far as film heros go.
Ultimately it will be an ensemble film, so Roy will get spotlight time and will still be the official leader of the Order.
Bedinsis
2013-02-06, 08:28 PM
I am worried about how the dungeon of Dorukon should be handled. It is its' own self-contained story, yet it serves several functions for the following storylines:
* It introduces us to the main characters and group dynamic, in what we are accepted to take as their "natural environment".
* It introduces us to the main conflict.
* It ensures that the Order is to be hunted down and dragged to Azure City by Miko.
* It shows us the primary antagonist.
* It shatters Roy's sword, setting up the quest of the starmetal.
All of which are important aspects. But I doubt anyone reading this came to this forum hoping to see the dungeon of Dorukon specifically on the big screen, on the whole the story isn't that strong (a remnant from the comics' origin as a simple gag-a-day comic) and compared to later storylines are much more interesting. Hence the dungeon of Dorukon should preferable be a relatively short segment, but then we lose all the qualities listed above.
The best bet is probably to have the Order painted with broadest strokes possible in the dungeon and then introducing them proper in later segments. Or possibly remove the dungeon entirely and rewriting it to an entirely different starting sequence. I am however not clever enough to imagine how that would work out.
One idea I do have that could cut out the starmetal quest story (which honestly doesn't contribute much to the story that cannot be told in different ways) is to have the teen black dragon be a resident of the dungeon of Dorukon. And it is only after defeating it that they realize it wasn't in Xykon's employ. It could be a comedic sequence.
I am worried about how the dungeon of Dorukon should be handled. It is its' own self-contained story, yet it serves several functions for the following storylines:
* It introduces us to the main characters and group dynamic, in what we are accepted to take as their "natural environment".
* It introduces us to the main conflict.
* It ensures that the Order is to be hunted down and dragged to Azure City by Miko.
* It shows us the primary antagonist.
* It shatters Roy's sword, setting up the quest of the starmetal.
All of which are important aspects. But I doubt anyone reading this came to this forum hoping to see the dungeon of Dorukon specifically on the big screen, on the whole the story isn't that strong (a remnant from the comics' origin as a simple gag-a-day comic) and compared to later storylines are much more interesting. Hence the dungeon of Dorukon should preferable be a relatively short segment, but then we lose all the qualities listed above.
The best bet is probably to have the Order painted with broadest strokes possible in the dungeon and then introducing them proper in later segments. Or possibly remove the dungeon entirely and rewriting it to an entirely different starting sequence. I am however not clever enough to imagine how that would work out.
One idea I do have that could cut out the starmetal quest story (which honestly doesn't contribute much to the story that cannot be told in different ways) is to have the teen black dragon be a resident of the dungeon of Dorukon. And it is only after defeating it that they realize it wasn't in Xykon's employ. It could be a comedic sequence.
It is certainly worth considering. But then why would a Black Dragon raise her child in a dungeon with other monsters/adventurers wandering around? And why would the forces of Good allow an adult black dragon to live so close to one of the gates?
Zolkabro
2013-02-07, 01:43 AM
I am worried about how the dungeon of Dorukon should be handled. It is its' own self-contained story, yet it serves several functions for the following storylines:
* It introduces us to the main characters and group dynamic, in what we are accepted to take as their "natural environment".
* It introduces us to the main conflict.
* It ensures that the Order is to be hunted down and dragged to Azure City by Miko.
* It shows us the primary antagonist.
* It shatters Roy's sword, setting up the quest of the starmetal.
All of which are important aspects. But I doubt anyone reading this came to this forum hoping to see the dungeon of Dorukon specifically on the big screen, on the whole the story isn't that strong (a remnant from the comics' origin as a simple gag-a-day comic) and compared to later storylines are much more interesting. Hence the dungeon of Dorukon should preferable be a relatively short segment, but then we lose all the qualities listed above.
The best bet is probably to have the Order painted with broadest strokes possible in the dungeon and then introducing them proper in later segments. Or possibly remove the dungeon entirely and rewriting it to an entirely different starting sequence. I am however not clever enough to imagine how that would work out.
One idea I do have that could cut out the starmetal quest story (which honestly doesn't contribute much to the story that cannot be told in different ways) is to have the teen black dragon be a resident of the dungeon of Dorukon. And it is only after defeating it that they realize it wasn't in Xykon's employ. It could be a comedic sequence.
The fact that the Dungeon of Dorukan could be overlooked is important, but an opening montage can be incredibly powerful just on it's own, never mind the rest of the movie.
Has anybody here seen Up, by Pixar? It's one of my all time favourite movies. Half of the cinema was in tears by the end of the OPENING MONTAGE. While I understand your worry, if done well, a montage could do all of that. We would see the role of each character, see all the many fights and battles, see the final battle, the sword being destroyed, etc. Then, as a chance to know the characters better, and show us, as you said, their group dynamic better, we then have the quest for the starmetal. In the rest of the movie, small things like this are being skipped, but here, it's a good way for the audience to get a feel for things, rather than being chucked in at the deep end with Miko coming and kicking asses.
Also, if the dragon is in the dungeon, how could they not kill them? That's how it works, monsters are in dungeons, adventurers come to kill them. There's even a TVTropes page on it, which I'm not going to link to because I have important stuff to do for the next six hours. We want to emphasise it just being in some random woods, minding it's own business, so that the mother's reaction fits better.
Alrighty, cool.
General breakdown I'm thinking of. Once we've settled on stuff, I'll work on seeing if I can fit it into either the 8 turn or 5 act Hollywood structures.
-Dorukan's dungeon. Meet the Order.
-Introduce Eugene/Roy's backtory. Starmetal, establish characters, kill Dragon. Introduce Haley's backstory.
-Xykon and Redcloak and MitD escaping. Find hobgoblins.
-Miko arrives and escorts Order to AC
-Arrive in AC, meet O-Chul/Hinjo hybrid. Meet Shojo. (Probably skip the
whole trial sequence, and instead have Shojo explain the Snarl and the ramifications of the Orders actions and then ask for an explanation in more of a tribunal way than a habius corpus way. It is simpler and quicker.)
-(Plot Point X, see below.)
-A goblin army is heading to AC lead by a lich. We can talk a bit about goblins vs. AC and maybe even insert some of the SoD story. We could do a little thing where someone, maybe O-chul maybe Miko maybe Shojo, is talking about the crimson mantle and killing the goblins in a biased slant towards the paladins, but then superimpose the video from Redcloaks POV, him running away from the Paladins and taking the crimson mantle and escaping with One-Eye. Though that is all that One-Eye would ever be in the story, sadly. It would be a good set up for finishing Redcloaks story, later.
-Battle prep. We've been focusing on Haley a lot, and we can really emphasize her and Elan's romance here. Don't make it happen quite yet, but maybe when O-Chul makes Haley scared of the big battle she and Elan stay in the same room but don't have sex or something.
-The actual battle itself. We show Team Evil's side occasionally, and meet Tsukiko. As the party is losing the battle, maybe Haley has to go retrieve Roy's body and tells Elan to run for the boats. Maybe she confesses her love here and runs into the fray with Belkar. Everyone else gets to the fleet. Battle ends.
-Short heaven sequence. A little with Eugene and then the Archon. Months pass, the archon looks down.
-The fleet. Not much is happening. We will imply people are starving and such. V is losing his mind, guilty over leaving the city, and trying to contact Haley. Elan is a little broody and depressed. Durkon is helping out around the fleet best he can.
-The rebellion. Probably start off with Haley leading a group of rebels to free the slaves. Tsukiko makes a comeback. Haley and Co. win this round and we find out what they've been doing.
-Tsukiko reports to Xykon, Xykon is torturing O-Chul, ("I think he got a little closer this time." Make Xykon really, truly evil.) I actually want to have Redcloak interrupt it and get flustered and then take him away. We will end on Tsukiko starting her report to Xykon, which will be followed up on later. I think we should seriously consider the whole, "Throw the townsfolk into the Rift" interrogation scene followed by O-Chul thrown into his cell and a little interaction between O-Chul and MitD implying MitD is good hearted. Also, we can learn what else we need to know of Redcloaks backstory and we can actually learn Xykon and Redcloaks motivation.
-Haley again. Maybe one more thing of normal resistance action. Then I think we should have Haley figure out how Phylacteries work and plan an operation to steal it. Yes, I know, it doesn't happen. But I think it will make things tidier as we go along. Also, there can be some mention of Haley's greed and thievery being used towards a selfless purpose now, so it is the moment in the script where the Hero confronts and overcomes her flaw. Maybe she passes up some really AWESOME loot along the way.
-Back to the fleet. Vs mental state is really, really bad. Maybe Elan does something that annoys him and then he keeps getting requests to use his magic and he decides to leave, maybe to just find somewhere quiet to research his spells and maybe to go find his Elven master for help or something. Dragon encounter.
-Haley enacting daring thievery plan.
-V selling his soul for the power. Familicide. V 'fixing' everything.
-Haley steals the phylactery somehow. Redlocak has to track her down and get her immediately.
-Intercut between Xykon and V battling and Haley and Co. trying to evade Redcloak. Haley takes out one of Redcloaks eyes. Haley's plan is maybe to throw the Phylactery in the Rift and has some underground pathways/sewers to get there.
-Xykon and V battle goes similar to how it did in the comic, with V saving O-Chul then escaping.
-Redcloak ultimately tracks down the underground pathways/sewers. He sends hordes of goblins in every direction, slaughtering all the resistance. Then, with a few strong goblins, tracks down Haley and Belkar. Redcloak wins and ultimately retrieves Phylactery, but Haley and Belkar barely escape. Redcloak starts a sending spell to Xykon, then stutters halfway through, looks pensive, lightbulb moment, and tells Xykon that the resistance is dead but they haven't retrieved the Phylactery yet. The goblins look curious, Redcloak says something like, "I'm very sorry, may the Dark One himself repay you for your sacrifice." Then he kills the few goblins with him. (We want to end with Redcloak seeming really sinister and deadly since he is going to be the villain with more focus in the story even though the audience knows Xykon is stronger.)
-When Haley and Belkar make it out of the city, maybe some of the birds V sent find them since they are out of the Cloister. (Cloister can work different in the movie.) V gets word, and teleports the whole party together. Recap time, V loses his soul bindings, tearful reunion with Elan, etc. Durkon starts to raise Roy.
-Redcloak goes into his study. Tsukiko is there, as per the comic. We play it out pretty much the same way, explaining the ritual and the halves and laying out the Plan and how it betrays Xykon. Except, once Tsukiko gets eaten, Redcloak hides the Phylactery in some super secret portable hole in his quarters or some such and approaches Xykon. Redcloak tells Xykon that the Phylactery got lost in the sewers and they have to look for it by hand which he suspects will take a couple of weeks. Furious, Xykon orders Redcloak not to heal his eye and dismisses him before killing him out of anger.
-Cut back to the main party. Roy is alive. Elan and Haley are holding hands. They are all looking out at the fleet. O-Chul gives Roy the list of Xykons spells and the general location of the rest of the gates then says he will be off to lead the fleet. Everyone assumes that under O-Chuls leadership it will be fine, so there is closure. Roy says it is time to go for the next gate. Dramatic backdrop of the fleet sailing away.
-Last few frames are of Redcloak alone in a dark study, pounding away at a replica Phylactery with the real one right next to it, clearly making a duplicate. An eyepatch and a sinister look on his face. Cut to black.
X: Not sure what to put here, exactly. We could try and meet the Linear Guild, though I am leaning towards waiting to introduce and make them the primary antagonists in the first half of the second movie. I don't want to go back to Team Evil, since we will see their side during the battle. I don't want the Order to leave AC, Cliffport is too unimportant for the films plot. I don't want a totally unrelated sidequest. But we need something that will enable a couple weeks to pass, at least. One option is to place the starmetal quest here or else have the dragon slaying here somehow.
Another option is to add Kubota in here. A ten minute or so sub plot of someone trying to assassinate Shojo or something and the Order has to defend him to prove that they are good and loyal and didn't mean to cause harm when they blew up the gate. Unfortunately, this route wouldn't give us time to do Therkla's story. But it would give us time to maybe explore the Mark of Justice if we want. Like, Belkar attacks a guard or something and now he has to defend Shojo with the mark. We could just as easily ditch the whole Mark thing, too, we have a lot of options in this plot point.
Whatever happens, what IS important is that somehow plot point X gets Miko to truly hate the order and leads to her killing Shojo. That is what matters.
So anyway, clearly some of these need lots of fleshing out exactly how it will happen and I could be wrong on where some of the plot points need to go. What do ya'll agree with or disagree with? What am I missing? Should anything be reordered?
All great overall, you're really good at this stuff.
A few points:
Firstly, I think we should include Celia. It gives Haley somebody to play off of, gives a bit of internal conflict to the order, makes it more interesting. If we don't do that, it'll just be Haley, Thanh, and Niu through that whole section, with Belkar providing comic relief, which will get dull after a bit. Celia be summoned accidentaley and add a bit of a new dynamic to the whole thing.
Secondly, the only main thing I think should be structured differently is the stealing of the Phylactory. Rather than seeing Redcloak send all these hoards into the tunnels, and then go after the main protagonists, I think we should do it more similarly to how it worked in the comic. I found strip 825 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0825.html) very surprising and scary, because I wasn't expecting it at all, and suddenly there it is. Haley, Thanh, Belkar, Niu, maybe the leaders of the rival resistances, depending on whether we inclue them, and maybe some mooks, are all triumphantly coming back to the cave, they audience is thinking victory, lulled into a false sense of security before BAM! Redcloak is there. You should definitely include the "decorating with your interiors" line, and maybe, as he does so, have him explode with his hand a hanging corpse, leaving blood and gore all over the wall, dripping down onto the heroes. That would be really unexpected. And then, and only THEN commence the fighting and running away. Celia could be badly hurt, but managed to escape because she can fly, but everyone else is dead. Then all the rest of the group is killed, and Haley and Belkar have no choice but to leave, or join the rest of the corpses. Belkar quite cheerfully leaves Mushroom-for-Brains to his fate, but Haley is more conflicted. This could also be a chance for character development: At the beginning of the story, Haley probably would have left without a thought, but now, she cannot bear to leave Thanh, and we get his heroic sacrifice, sending them away, ordering them to contact Hinjo. We should before this point make Thanh the main non-Order Resistance person, everybody's favourite one, so that this death really hits home. Then, Haley runs, as the mountain collapses behind her.
As for Point X, I say we leave it. Don't really need anything here at all. Miko already hates the Order, we can make sure we show this earlier on.
But if you're sure you want something, I say we put in the Linear Guild. They've tracked the Order down, and Nale sneaks in during the night and kidnaps Elan, swapping clothes, and then the Linear/Order fight progresses fairly similarly to in the comic, just not the the Julio Scoundrel, because you wanted to have that later. Although it could come in here if need be.
Another serious point - What will we do about Haley's speech vanishing? If Roy was the focus it would be fine: A different member of the Order having this is a good plot twist. But the main character? We can't have the lead actor not say anything understandable for over half of the first act. But then it's a major subplot that I always loved, and do we want to get rid of it?
I'm really happy with how this is turning out, though. It's going really well!
Maybe put a much-simplified plot overview in the OP? Just so thread visitors can quickly find whatever the current setup is.
Also, I've edited the cast list to include other suggestions. As we're getting so many questions and suggestions about cast, I'm going to repost here my post from the last thread, so all of you see the reasoning behind my choices:
My views on each character:
The Order of the Stick
:roy: Roy is definitely the hardest one in the Order. I've seen numerous decent suggestions, such as Adrian Lester, Tyrese Gibson, and Michael Jai White. Personally, even though he's fairly unknown, I really like Shaun Parkes. But still unsure on him.
:elan: Elan is easy: Neil Patrick Harris. Absolutely no doubt about that, he's the only person in this list for whom I am completely committed and sure that he is perfect.
:haley: As for Haley, Felicia Day. She's amazing. If not her then Christina Hendricks, and maybe Jewel Staite, but for me, it's Day all the way.
:belkar: Belkar is harder. Do we cast somebody with dwarfism, or use movie magic to make them smaller? I think that Warwick Davis would be great if we cast a dwarf, entirely because of his role as The Leprechaun. Yes, his sitcom is rubbish. I know he's unpopular. But in The Leprechaun, he is one of the funniest and most horrifying homicidal maniacs you can get at the same time. Sound familiar? :smalltongue:
:durkon: Durkon, I have to say Brian Blessed. This troubles me, because is he awkward enough? But I don't think anybody else can play our beloved dwarf. If not Durkon, then Thor, who's much hammier, but I think Blessed is the best mandwarf for the job.
:vaarsuvius: Vaarsuvius is a hard one because of the androgynous problem. But I quite like the suggestion of Tilda Swinton, I think she could pull it off.
Team Evil
:xykon: For the Big Bad himself, I've heard countless suggestions, ranging from a great fit (Ralph Fiennes) to nowhere near (Gary Oldman). But my favourite has got to be Bill Nighy. The guy is amazing. Second choice is Fiennes, but I think that Nighy has it in the bag.
:redcloak: Redcloak, in my opinion, is the most complex actor in the comic. Reserving judgement on him, he needs somebody absolutely phenomenal.
:mitd: Whatever MITD is, he has to be voiced by Robin Williams. Come on, imagine that. He'd have us all in fits of laughter every time.
:roach: This is another thing I am completely adamant about: the Roaches have to be MUPPETS. Imagine it: Great big red felt puppets as the demon roaches, with the famous mouth. I barely give a damn who they're voiced by, just so long as they are muppets.
Tsukiko, Helena Bonham Carter. She excels at the strange, the unsettling, and the creepy, but she can be pretty funny, too. A perfect fit.
The Linear Guild
:nale: Nale, as I've said, would be NPH.
:sabine: Sabine... Hm. People often suggest incredibly one dimensional actors who just look hot, and, as Tarquin would say, have great eyes. But I think she really needs a great actor, because she is actually a fairly complex character to play. Yes, it needs to be somebody sexy, but Sabine is far more than that. So, I'm not sure on this one, just adamant that she can't be somebody like Mila Kunis or Megan Fox, only cast for their looks. [EDIT: Maybe Summer Glau? She's great in Firefly. Not sure though]
:thog: Lou Ferringo is the obvious choice, but he's now in his sixties, so I think the same thing applies to him as does SLJ. So I don't know.
Zz'driti... Ho boy, it was hard enough finding one vaguely androgynous looking actor. Now we have to find another? I got nothing, I'm afraid.
Pompey? Um. Who can be disastrously flirtatious? Depp? Nah...
Yikyik? SCREW THIS. The Linear guild is haaaarrd.
Moving on...
Family of the Order
So, I definitely agree with those saying Sammy LJ is too old for Roy. He's a marvellous actor, and, had Pulp Fiction come out last year, he'd be an okay age for it too (although even then pushing the boundary). But Pulp Fiction was twenty years ago. We have accept that he is no longer the number one black action actor, and move on.
But I think he still deserves a place in this, and so, I say we give him Horace, who he'd do brilliantly.
The other black actor everybody jumps to is Morgan Freeman, and I say either he is Eugene (Freeman would be fantastic as a sassy, grump old grandpa), or the voice of Roy's Archon (because everybody knows that God sounds like Morgan Freeman).
Sarah and Julia, I'm not so sure. I think Sarah would need two actors, though, old and young. Make-up won't cut it.
The Starshines, Billy Connolly as Ian? That would certainly be hilarious. But I like the idea of Connolly as Leeky Windstaff. Ian comes first, though. Connolly does paranoid well.
Tarquin as much as his kids if not more so fits the kind of character of Neil Patrick Harris is great at. But then the question arises of, is it possible to greenscreen three Neil Patrick Harrises in one room?
[EDIT: Wait, the awesomeness of that just sunk in. THREE NEIL PATRICK HARRISES IN ONE ROOM. They have to MAKE it possible!]
As for Inkyrius? Enough with the androgynous actors! Jeez!
The Order of the Scribble
I want these guys to be portrayed as big mysterious people, like Wise Ones or the spirtual ancestors, kinda thing.
Soon Kim should be Jackie Chan. The guy is obviously great at action, but he's no spring chicken either, now in his mid fifties. I've heard him suggested as both O-Chul and Shojo, but Soon seems like the perfect half-way point between the two.
Lirian should be Cate Blanchett, simply because of Galadriel. Need I say more?
Dorukan, I'd say Ian McKellan, but we'd need a different actor to be young Dorukan.
Girard... Not sure. Needs to be hot, but also have a dark side to him. Leonardo di Caprio? Those who have seen him in Django Unchained will know what I mean.
As for Serini and Kraagor, we just don't know enough about them. We'll have to wait and see on those two.
The Azurites
Much though I would love to have Alan Rickman as Shojo, I think that the Azurites need to be oriental. It isn't really clear from their appearance in the comic, but their names and culture tell us. Even though we all know that this is the case, lots of people still suggest Western actors for these guys, but that won't fit.
I really don't know many Oriental actors, though. So. Um. I have a few suggestions, but keep in mind there may well be far better actors out there I just don't know about:
Miko, I suggest Michelle Yeoh. She's a great chinese action actor, I've seen her in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, and I think she was in a Bond movie (don't know which).
For O-Chul, Chow Yun-fat. He's kind of the Chuck Norris of China, massive action name.
And Shojo, the most important of them all to get the perfect actor for, I have absolutely no idea. Ah well.
So, a number of questions we've had could have been answered by this, so, from here on, here's the reasons why I chose those people, so I won't have to keep retyping them.
Okay, that's pretty much it now. Sorry for such a long post, but there's a lot of things to discuss! :smallsmile:
The fact that the Dungeon of Dorukan could be overlooked is important, but an opening montage can be incredibly powerful just on it's own, never mind the rest of the movie.
Has anybody here seen Up, by Pixar? It's one of my all time favourite movies. Half of the cinema was in tears by the end of the OPENING MONTAGE. While I understand your worry, if done well, a montage could do all of that. We would see the role of each character, see all the many fights and battles, see the final battle, the sword being destroyed, etc. Then, as a chance to know the characters better, and show us, as you said, their group dynamic better, we then have the quest for the starmetal. In the rest of the movie, small things like this are being skipped, but here, it's a good way for the audience to get a feel for things, rather than being chucked in at the deep end with Miko coming and kicking asses.
Also, if the dragon is in the dungeon, how could they not kill them? That's how it works, monsters are in dungeons, adventurers come to kill them. There's even a TVTropes page on it, which I'm not going to link to because I have important stuff to do for the next six hours. We want to emphasise it just being in some random woods, minding it's own business, so that the mother's reaction fits better.
All great overall, you're really good at this stuff.
A few points:
Firstly, I think we should include Celia. It gives Haley somebody to play off of, gives a bit of internal conflict to the order, makes it more interesting. If we don't do that, it'll just be Haley, Thanh, and Niu through that whole section, with Belkar providing comic relief, which will get dull after a bit. Celia be summoned accidentaley and add a bit of a new dynamic to the whole thing.
Secondly, the only main thing I think should be structured differently is the stealing of the Phylactory. Rather than seeing Redcloak send all these hoards into the tunnels, and then go after the main protagonists, I think we should do it more similarly to how it worked in the comic. I found strip 825 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0825.html) very surprising and scary, because I wasn't expecting it at all, and suddenly there it is. Haley, Thanh, Belkar, Niu, maybe the leaders of the rival resistances, depending on whether we inclue them, and maybe some mooks, are all triumphantly coming back to the cave, they audience is thinking victory, lulled into a false sense of security before BAM! Redcloak is there. You should definitely include the "decorating with your interiors" line, and maybe, as he does so, have him explode with his hand a hanging corpse, leaving blood and gore all over the wall, dripping down onto the heroes. That would be really unexpected. And then, and only THEN commence the fighting and running away. Celia could be badly hurt, but managed to escape because she can fly, but everyone else is dead. Then all the rest of the group is killed, and Haley and Belkar have no choice but to leave, or join the rest of the corpses. Belkar quite cheerfully leaves Mushroom-for-Brains to his fate, but Haley is more conflicted. This could also be a chance for character development: At the beginning of the story, Haley probably would have left without a thought, but now, she cannot bear to leave Thanh, and we get his heroic sacrifice, sending them away, ordering them to contact Hinjo. We should before this point make Thanh the main non-Order Resistance person, everybody's favourite one, so that this death really hits home. Then, Haley runs, as the mountain collapses behind her.
As for Point X, I say we leave it. Don't really need anything here at all. Miko already hates the Order, we can make sure we show this earlier on.
But if you're sure you want something, I say we put in the Linear Guild. They've tracked the Order down, and Nale sneaks in during the night and kidnaps Elan, swapping clothes, and then the Linear/Order fight progresses fairly similarly to in the comic, just not the the Julio Scoundrel, because you wanted to have that later. Although it could come in here if need be.
Another serious point - What will we do about Haley's speech vanishing? If Roy was the focus it would be fine: A different member of the Order having this is a good plot twist. But the main character? We can't have the lead actor not say anything understandable for over half of the first act. But then it's a major subplot that I always loved, and do we want to get rid of it?
I'm really happy with how this is turning out, though. It's going really well!
Maybe put a much-simplified plot overview in the OP? Just so thread visitors can quickly find whatever the current setup is.
Also, I've edited the cast list to include other suggestions. As we're getting so many questions and suggestions about cast, I'm going to repost here my post from the last thread, so all of you see the reasoning behind my choices:
So, a number of questions we've had could have been answered by this, so, from here on, here's the reasons why I chose those people, so I won't have to keep retyping them.
Okay, that's pretty much it now. Sorry for such a long post, but there's a lot of things to discuss! :smallsmile:
Oooh, yeah, Haley successfully steals the Phylactery and then Redcloak is waiting for her in their tunnel network, just like in the comic. You are totally right, that is much better. (: It should be more goblins, though, since Redcloak isn't planning to betray Xykon quite yet since he is reacting to a situation, not plotting.
I'm perfectly fine with Celia, I like her, too. But only if we have her as Roy's pre-existing girlfriend. There is really nothing to be gained by having Roy meet her and then start dating her all in the first act. No tension, no arc. For the webcomic, it was actually a decent amount of time for us before Roy and Celia became an item. But we would have to rush it in a movie and I say it is better if they are already a couple. Our main romance sub plot is covered.
Hmm, we may not need plot point X. But something happens that prompts Shojo to tell the Order about his chaotic manipulation and Miko is eavesdropping. And we may have to make the Miko drags the Order to AC a bit longer to establish Miko if we aren't going to have another sub-plot. Which might be fine, really.
As for Haley's no speaking thing, we drop it, I think. You say you always loved it so I'm sorry about it by I don't think we could take the time out to develop the internal struggle. Plus, without the Linear Guild plot, it doesn't become a relevant enough obstacle to be worthwhile action wise. There is really no need for it in this plot. It flowed well in the comic, but I am afraid it would just be jarring for viewers of the movie without advancing the main plot forward.
Yeah, I'll edit the OP, sure. What do you think I should include? Just bulletpoints and one sentence summaries of the main plot points to outline what we've come up with?
Zolkabro
2013-02-07, 01:00 PM
Oooh, yeah, Haley successfully steals the Phylactery and then Redcloak is waiting for her in their tunnel network, just like in the comic. You are totally right, that is much better. (: It should be more goblins, though, since Redcloak isn't planning to betray Xykon quite yet since he is reacting to a situation, not plotting.
I'm perfectly fine with Celia, I like her, too. But only if we have her as Roy's pre-existing girlfriend. There is really nothing to be gained by having Roy meet her and then start dating her all in the first act. No tension, no arc. For the webcomic, it was actually a decent amount of time for us before Roy and Celia became an item. But we would have to rush it in a movie and I say it is better if they are already a couple. Our main romance sub plot is covered.
I agree, that fits.
Hmm, we may not need plot point X. But something happens that prompts Shojo to tell the Order about his chaotic manipulation and Miko is eavesdropping. And we may have to make the Miko drags the Order to AC a bit longer to establish Miko if we aren't going to have another sub-plot. Which might be fine, really.
Maybe he's scolding Roy for getting the wizard killed, after the wizard teleported them to and from the Oracle?
As for Haley's no speaking thing, we drop it, I think. You say you always loved it so I'm sorry about it by I don't think we could take the time out to develop the internal struggle. Plus, without the Linear Guild plot, it doesn't become a relevant enough obstacle to be worthwhile action wise. There is really no need for it in this plot. It flowed well in the comic, but I am afraid it would just be jarring for viewers of the movie without advancing the main plot forward.
Fair enough, don't worry about it.
Yeah, I'll edit the OP, sure. What do you think I should include? Just bulletpoints and one sentence summaries of the main plot points to outline what we've come up with?
Pretty much, yeah. Maybe have two lists: Things we've decided, and things we're currently working on if people want to pitch in.
Solse
2013-02-07, 06:11 PM
A good idea would to make it an animated film. Also, cut out all of the D&D-related jokes. Not everybody who would watch the movie would play D&D 3.5e. I very much agree to make Haley the main character. She is much more deep than Roy, with the whole plot concerning her father, etc.
Castamir
2013-02-08, 08:12 AM
A good idea would to make it an animated film.
Not that hard to do, actually (besides, well, the actual drawing and animating...).
I once analyzed all poses characters go into. Except for rare poses unique to a single panel, a vast majority uses only 5 configuration of legs, I forgot how many facial expressions, hands, and so on. Even more, these poses have their equivalents for every character. This just screams about parametrized code.
An animation, unlike stills, needs some transition between poses. This is a fun, short, one-time work! You'd also need some side animations inside the character itself, or it will look rigid. For example, for Miko, I'd make her cape flow. This has two parameters: amplitude and phase, phase can be totally hidden (a function of time). The character's code can set amplitude to 0 initially, bump it whenever the pose changes, and decay it with time. This will make the cape flow whenever Miko moves, then gradually settle down during a short while after she stops. This is again an easy one-time piece of work that won't need tweaking for a vast majority of scenes.
This way, you have a character as a black box object with only several knobs that need to be set, and even those can often be scripted: like, "walk from here to there". I think there are only two gaits, too: walk and run. Anything else can be done manually in the rare scene that needs a custom pose.
Such kind of automation reduces the work needed to:
preparing character dolls (one time)
drawing backgrounds (once per location/scene)
animating (commands like "move here, raising a hand that holds a sword")
camera work (framing)
The latter two are not as simple as they sound, this is a whole field of study.
Thanks to unique format of OOTS, and simplification done by the Giant, such a process is so much nicer than traditional animation ("draw every frame"), while looking better than cel-based stuff (like South Park).
Someone once made an OOTS animation done the traditional way, and it looked bad. That person couldn't get the proportions of a character consistent between scenes and sometimes even frames, etc.
Also, cut out all of the D&D-related jokes. Not everybody who would watch the movie would play D&D 3.5e. I very much agree to make Haley the main character. She is much more deep than Roy, with the whole plot concerning her father, etc.
Please, don't. D&D is much of what OOTS is, and I'm saying this as a person who never played D&D in my life. If I wanted Hollywood-style drivel, I know where to find it, and I'm not interested.
I wouldn't mutilate the story, either. Seeing what Hollywood can do to a book makes me grit my teeth every time if I've read the book in question before. Sometimes they apparently don't even bother reading a book once -- like the recent insult to Tolkien's works.
Solse
2013-02-08, 08:26 AM
I'm not saying that the whole plot should concern Haley's father, I am just saying that it adds backstory (much more than Roy has).
Also, as for the D&D jokes, it should be balanced enough so longtime D&D fans could laugh at them, but non-D&D-players aren't left thinking "What????"
As for the animation, should a pre-existing program be used, or should a new one be created for scripting the characters? If we use a pre-existing program, should it be a stick-figure animator? If we create a new program, should it be coded in C, Python, Objective-C, Java, etc? There are so many different things to consider for the animation, but I find it much more reasonable than a live-action film.
Solse
2013-02-08, 10:45 AM
I created a short animation of Roy swinging his greatsword in Stykz. It's really bad, but it's just meant as a demonstration of what one could do with an OOTS cartoon. Here it is:
http://i.imgur.com/GnS8Y7W.gif
I agree, that fits.
Maybe he's scolding Roy for getting the wizard killed, after the wizard teleported them to and from the Oracle?
Fair enough, don't worry about it.
Pretty much, yeah. Maybe have two lists: Things we've decided, and things we're currently working on if people want to pitch in.
Hmm, yeah. You know, we could do a 'version' of the trial, (sans lawyers but still have the 'being of pure law and good' that is actually eugene,) and have Shojo talk to Haley and Roy privately after the trial. Maybe Belkar is locked up awaiting trial for murdering a guard and Miko is chasing him down, as per the comic. Maybe she catches him and the rest of the Order prevents her from executing him and she looks for Shojo to report the Order's evil and then she accidentally eavesdrops, hears everything, and attacks Shojo and the Order right there, killing Shojo.
To make the build up satisfying, we'd have to make the Miko cart the Order to AC a little longer. But we would probably save even more time by not doing a side quest. Also, it might make the murder even more shocking since we were just introduced to Shojo and expected him to be a bigger character than BOOM crazy Miko kills her leader in fury.
As for animated, yeah, something to consider, for sure.
We aren't trying to mutilate the story, but screenplays have to change the original story a lot to work.
The other idea I had was about how to open up the first action scene focusing on the resistance where Haley is freeing the slaves. I figure set it during the Redcloaks big speech about the 6 month anniversary of Gobbotopia or somesuch. Redcloak is talking in the background, giving lots of exposition, while Haley is sneaking around using it as a distraction. We will set the actual freeing of the slaves close enough to the ceremony that we can hear it.
Solse
2013-02-08, 03:09 PM
One thing that I want to keep story-wise, is the entire Thief's Guild fight. It was dramatic, it was instrumental to Belkar's character development, and it also played a big part in how Haley retrieved Roy's corpse. I know that it is not necessarily related to defeating Xykon, but I really liked the big fight in Pete's house. Another thing that I want to keep is how Haley needs to free her father from imprisonment. This makes her have reason for being a greedy, treasure-loving rouge.
EDIT: If we are all planning to make this film, what time should we start working on the filming/animating? I know that everything concerning story should come first, but it would be good to have a rough estimate of when the movie would be finished. I am very, very, very serious about this being a film. The battle for Azure City would be up there with the battle in Two Towers for best movie battles, if done correctly.
Also, if we do decide to animate the film (realistically, what professional, Hollywood actor would want to act in a live-action movie based on a semi-obscure Dungeons and Dragons webcomic), I think that it should still have the comic's stick figure motif, but be more detailed. The fight scenes would be much cooler and better if we showed Haley jumping and twisting in mid-air to avoid 10 arrows. What would the point of a movie be if it was not more detailed than the comic?
One thing that I want to keep story-wise, is the entire Thief's Guild fight. It was dramatic, it was instrumental to Belkar's character development, and it also played a big part in how Haley retrieved Roy's corpse. I know that it is not necessarily related to defeating Xykon, but I really liked the big fight in Pete's house. Another thing that I want to keep is how Haley needs to free her father from imprisonment. This makes her have reason for being a greedy, treasure-loving rouge.
EDIT: If we are all planning to make this film, what time should we start working on the filming/animating? I know that everything concerning story should come first, but it would be good to have a rough estimate of when the movie would be finished. I am very, very, very serious about this being a film. The battle for Azure City would be up there with the battle in Two Towers for best movie battles, if done correctly.
Also, if we do decide to animate the film (realistically, what professional, Hollywood actor would want to act in a live-action movie based on a semi-obscure Dungeons and Dragons webcomic), I think that it should still have the comic's stick figure motif, but be more detailed. The fight scenes would be much cooler and better if we showed Haley jumping and twisting in mid-air to avoid 10 arrows. What would the point of a movie be if it was not more detailed than the comic?
Unfortunately, we decided to totally cut out Greysky. It doesn't really fit into the first films story arc. I'm open to hear more arguments for it, but right now it is on the chopping block.
We aren't planning on filming it, that would be millions of dollars. Same with animating, if it ever happened a professional studio would have to pick it up or something. No way we could get a whole team of professionals to work full time on this for a year or so.
Solse
2013-02-08, 05:28 PM
First of all, who says anything about professionals? Sure, in my last post I said that I want detailed animation, but by detailed, I mean "somewhat more realistic than the current art style, but not too unreasonable". Besides, I think that if we look hard enough, we could find some huge OOTS fans that are willing to animate the thing.
About Greysky City, we need some way to bring up Ian's imprisonment. I am aware that there are other ways of doing so, but Bozzok reveals a lot there when he mentions how he put Ian in prison. Plus, it's another action scene, and you cannot go wrong with another action scene (most of the time). Another case that I want to make for Greysky is that in the comic, the cleric of Loki was who reunited the Order to resurrect Roy. Unless we want soul-spliced V to be the one who locates Haley and Belkar, then we should use Greysky City. (I actually would not be that opposed to the other option, but I still like the big fight scene in the Thief's Guild (as mentioned before)).
Also, might I suggest that we try to solve the mysteries, as in Redcloak with the phylactery? Unless it is definite that a sequel would be made, and people would be willing to put in the effort for a sequel, I recommend that we try to wrap as much up as possible in the movie. If there is any doubt as to whether or not there will be a sequel, then I would want to reveal the whole plan with the Dark One in the movie. It is really tough to provide a definite ending, when the series is not over yet. However, I want to get cracking with this as soon as possible, because I am really passionate about the possibility of an OOTS movie (or, an OOTS 30-minute animation, as the case may be).
First of all, who says anything about professionals? Sure, in my last post I said that I want "high-quality" animation, but by high-quality, I mean "somewhat more detailed than the current art style, but not too unreasonable". Besides, I think that if we look hard enough, we could find some huge OOTS fans that are willing to animate the thing.
About Greysky City, we need some way to bring up Ian's imprisonment. I am aware that there are other ways of doing so, but Bozzok reveals a lot there when he mentions how he put Ian in prison. Plus, it's another action scene, and you cannot go wrong with another action scene (most of the time). Another case that I want to make for Greysky is that in the comic, the cleric of Loki was who reunited the Order to resurrect Roy. Unless we want soul-spliced V to be the one who locates Haley and Belkar, then we should use Greysky City. (I actually would not be that opposed to the other option, but I still like the big fight scene in the Thief's Guild (as mentioned before)).
Also, might I suggest that we try to solve the mysteries, as in Redcloak with the phylactery? Unless it is definite that a sequel would be made, and people would be willing to put in the effort for a sequel, I recommend that we try to wrap as much up as possible in the movie. If there is any doubt as to whether or not there will be a sequel, then I would want to reveal the whole plan with the Dark One in the movie. It is really tough to provide a definite ending, when the series is not over yet. However, I want to get cracking with this as soon as possible, because I am really passionate about the possibility of an OOTS movie (or, an OOTS 30-minute animation).
Well, for one, a forum produced live action is right out. We are talking a million dollars if we don't want any big names at all, and are willing to cut corners. Plus, there are probably very few film professionals on the forum compared to how many we would need and I know that I don't have the experience or the contacts to produce or direct the thing. As for an animation, I doubt it is feasible without a production house. Animations have many thousands of hours in them.
This is not to discourage your enthusiasm at all. I am glad you are excited about making it a thing. Some of us are doing this more for the fun and experience, but if it did become a thing, (which I would suggest not counting on, really,) it would have to be something where a studio picked it up. And, of course, that would mean Rich would have to want it done. And I know I have no intent to ask Rich for any official go ahead, this is a fan project out of love, after all. I assume if he wanted a film, he could enact plans in that area.
So right now, I'm going to just focus on plotting/writing the screenplay. Logistics and a timeline aren't really crossing my mind since that is not what I am in it for. Of course, that isn't to say you can't discuss that with others or even talk to me about it. I am just not that concerned with the producing aspect.
At the same time, you seem to know more about animating than I do. How much work do you think would be in a two hour animation? How many people and how much money do you think it would take?
As far as plotting goes, right now we have it planned that Haley reunites with the party right after she escapes the late Azure City. So there really isn't room for Greysky right now since the climax is the V vs. Xykon battle/the fall of the rebellion. Not to say that couldn't change, but I don't think any of the plot lines in Greysky are enough to make that change worthwhile.
Solse
2013-02-08, 06:19 PM
I might have missed something when reading the plot descriptions, but how exactly does Haley reunite with the rest of the party? As I previously mentioned, soul-spliced V could use epic magic to do so, but is this what you were thinking? And as for animating, maybe there could be a low budget animation studio willing to make an OOTS movie, but at the very least I could create "dolls" for each character (similar to the animation I made for Roy, but better). Sooner or later, after development (story-wise, logistics-wise, or otherwise) reaches a certain point, The Giant will have to be notified of this project because who better to contribute ideas than the creator of the comic?
I understand that it will take a while to get some workable story, but who knows what could happen.
As for how long a two-hour animation could take, that depends primarily on the quality of the video. If a simple stick figure animation is desired, then within a month or two, the actual animation would be finished. Add sound effects, fancy transitions, voiceovers, intro sequence, and credits, and it might take less than two months. The time it takes for voiceovers remains constant, no matter how detailed the animation is. If the animation is a fancy three-dimensional work created in Blender, at least half a year would be required. I figure that something in the middle would take 3-4 months, but to me, no matter how long it takes, any OOTS movie would be a good OOTS movie.
Story-wise, if there is no evidence of a sequel being created, all mention of the Dark One's plans and the swapping of the phylactery should be scrapped. If the movie will end on a high note, if there's no sequel, it should end on the highest note possible without the storyline being mangled beyond belief. I don't want Haley to defeat Xykon in a big, one-on-one climatic fight. I don't want the Order to defeat Xykon, if at this point in the comics, they don't. But all mystery should be erased from the movie if there won't be a follow-up solving all of the mysteries.
I might have missed something when reading the plot descriptions, but how exactly does Haley reunite with the rest of the party? As I previously mentioned, soul-spliced V could use epic magic to do so, but is this what you were thinking? And as for animating, maybe there could be a low budget animation studio willing to make an OOTS movie, but at the very least I could create "dolls" for each character (similar to the animation I made for Roy, but better). Sooner or later, after development (story-wise, logistics-wise, or otherwise) reaches a certain point, The Giant will have to be notified of this project because who better to contribute ideas than the creator of the comic?
I understand that it will take a while to get some workable story, but who knows what could happen.
As for how long a two-hour animation could take, that depends primarily on the quality of the video. If a simple stick figure animation is desired, then within a month or two, the actual animation would be finished. Add sound effects, fancy transitions, voiceovers, intro sequence, and credits, and it might take less than two months. The time it takes for voiceovers remains constant, no matter how detailed the animation is. If the animation is a fancy three-dimensional work created in Blender, at least half a year would be required. I figure that something in the middle would take 3-4 months, but to me, no matter how long it takes, any OOTS movie would be a good OOTS movie.
Story-wise, if there is no evidence of a sequel being created, all mention of the Dark One's plans and the swapping of the phylactery should be scrapped. If the movie will end on a high note, if there's no sequel, it should end on the highest note possible without the storyline being mangled beyond belief. I don't want Haley to defeat Xykon in a big, one-on-one climatic fight. I don't want the Order to defeat Xykon, if at this point in the comics, they don't. But all mystery should be erased from the movie if there won't be a follow-up solving all of the mysteries.
Yeah, at this point I am just not thinking of the Giant or anyone else. No one really has to notify him. He is on the forums. If he is interested he will speak up and if he isn't we all had a good time, hopefully.
Right now, we are plotting assuming a sequel. And in the plot we have, Vs previous attempts to find Haley, (like the birds,) will find her when she leaves the Cloister effect. So V, after fleeing Xykon, finds her and Belkar soon after. (Haley and Belkar are running from the city after the destruction of the Resistance.) Yes, this makes Cloister weaker than it is in the comic. Such is the nature of an adaptation, though.
Solse
2013-02-08, 06:42 PM
A quick note: the birds did find Haley but she just decided to cook them up for dinner for her and Belkar. In this sense, the Cloister effect will be the same as in the comic.
Also, are we going to have Haley try to seek out the rest of the party like in the comic, or is she just randomly fleeing? (Note that I if she is seeking out the party or a cleric to contact them, she does not have to reach Greysky or Cliffport).
EDIT: Will the sequel be as long as the first movie? Because if it is shorter, a 3.5 or 3 hour movie wouldn't be that bad. I find that it wouldn't be horrible if there was sort of a combined plot, but if a combined movie would be 4 hours, then a sequel would be best. From the plot that you gave so far for a sequel, if that is all that the sequel would be, then a combined movie would work best. If there will certainly be a sequel, might I suggest adding Greysky City to it, just so the movie is not too short?
A quick note: the birds did find Haley but she just decided to cook them up for dinner for her and Belkar. In this sense, the Cloister effect will be the same as in the comic.
Also, are we going to have Haley try to seek out the rest of the party like in the comic, or is she just randomly fleeing? (Note that I if she is seeking out the party or a cleric to contact them, she does not have to reach Greysky or Cliffport).
EDIT: Will the sequel be as long as the first movie? Because if it is shorter, a 3.5 or 3 hour movie wouldn't be that bad. I find that it wouldn't be horrible if there was sort of a combined plot, but if a combined movie would be 4 hours, then a sequel would be best. From the plot that you gave so far for a sequel, if that is all that the sequel would be, then a combined movie would work best. If there will certainly be a sequel, might I suggest adding Greysky City to it, just so the movie is not too short?
The sequel won't be too short, since the first half is going to have everything relating to Girard's gate/linear guild/tarquin and the second half is going to be everything we haven't seen yet. I doubt there would even be time for Greysky city.
You are right about the bird thing. At any rate, what I meant about the Cloister thing is that it will not effect as soon as they leave the cloister, should that be easier on our plot.
Solse
2013-02-08, 07:19 PM
So, the first movie will be approximately from Dungeon Crawlin' Fools to the end of Don't Split the Party, and the sequel will be everything onwards?
Also, there are two ways that the first movie could end: one is that there are still unresolved plot points (the phylactery, the Dark One's plans), and the other is that Haley gets the phylactery back for the resistance, and the movie ends there. The loose plot points could, in that scenario, be used as plot for the second movie. Based on what you described the first half of the sequel as in your last post, I wonder if it would be better to get Roy resurrected in the first movie, and have the Resistance get crushed in the second. This would mean that instead of Haley fleeing the city, she would try to seek out a cleric to contact Durkon, but I like the idea of having a more definite ending to the first movie. Also, I have decided that Greysky City should almost definitely be scrapped. It does not count enough to the plot to be included in any movie.
Also, if the movie is animated, I think that we should not make Hinjo and O-Chul the same person. My thoughts are that we show Hinjo once or so, just to establish him as the ruler of Azure City, and then pretty much forget about him for the rest of the movie. Another change that I suggest is that we scrap the scene of Roy in Celestia. The only reason that Roy in heaven was important to the comic is that Roy was the main character. It revealed more about Roy's family, Roy's alignment, but Haley is the main character. A question that I have is whether or not we should focus on Azure City's fleet, because if we do not, then I really do not think that we should focus on Roy in the afterlife at all. If we want to show him scrying on the fleet, then maybe I would include him in Celestia in the movie, but if not, then I think that we should focus only on the Resistance. Speaking on scrying on the fleet, I think that we should try to focus on it as little as possible. The Therkla storyline does not really advance the main plot, and the only thing that really matters involving the fleet is how V sold hir soul.
Hiro Protagonest
2013-02-08, 08:18 PM
@v NPH is not Elan. He's charming, but his forehead speaks of plots and schemes, which may work for Nale but is far too much nefariousness for Elan.
Hmm, true, he does definitely come off as a thinker. What are his big roles? Barney Stinsen. Dr. Horrible (I think. I haven't actually seen it, but there is a picture of him in a labcoat with goggles and a freeze ray and it comes from that). The psychic colonel Carl in Starship Troopers.
Solse
2013-02-09, 10:59 AM
I find that there are two directions that this movie could go if it will have a sequel: make it a two-parter, or wrap up the first movie totally and have a sequel which raises questions of its own (instead of playing off of questions raised in the first one). I would rather the movie go in the second direction, mainly because it would take a lot of work to make one movie, so it is questionable whether or not the second will be made in the near future. I would find it somewhat annoying if the first movie raises questions about Redcloak and the Dark One's plan, doesn't have the party get back together, etc, and then it is decided that it would take too much work to create a sequel. I think that another benefit of this plan would be that it allows for the movies to be longer, "standalone" films instead of forcing the movies to be on the shorter side to allow for a two parter. A singular movie in a two-parter cannot be 2.5 or 3 hours, because it make the two-parter 5 to 6 hours. However, two "standalone" movie can be 3 hours each, because it is less like a 6 hour movie and more like two 3 hour ones.
In addition, I would like to share with everybody an alternate plot that I have developed based off of the original one. This plot is if the movie goes in the direction that I suggested in the above paragraph. For the first movie, the plot would be as follows:
-Start off with a montage showing the group going through the Dungeon of Dorukan. Have Haley introduce herself, the party, their quest, etc.
-Show encounter with Linear Guild. Mainly show the battle, with Haley explaining how they met the Guild.
-Show Haley being separated from the party, after being "captured" by the teenage goblin.
-Show Xykon and Redcloak preparing for their encounter with the Order.
-Show the battle with Xykon. As with all movie adaptions of books (or in this case, webcomics), make the battle longer, and detailed. Maybe exaggerate the size of Xykon's "army" guarding the Gate.
-Quickly show sidequest to reforge Roy's sword. Just enough to see the dragon. (2 mins on the quest, 3-5 mins on the dragon)
-Quickly show Xykon reforging his army in the Southern Mountains. (5 mins max)
-Have Miko come and capture the Order, show fight scenes. Don't go into as much detail about the journey as the comic, don't talk about the dirt farm, maybe talk about the inn (but I doubt it).
-Show an abridged version of the trial. Enough to show the background exposition.
-Maybe Oracle?
-Go to Cliffport, have the Order fight the Linear Guild.
-Have the Order come back to Azure City. Have Elan come back, quick flashback to his escape from Cliffport prison.
-Show Miko killing Shojo.
-Introduce Hinjo. He won't really do much in the movie, but it's just good to establish a leader of AC.
-Have Haley confess her love for Elan. I don't know what to do with the aphasia thing, but I still want her to fall in love with him now.
-Show the battle for Azure City in all of its miraculous glory. Make the battle big dramatic, and exciting.
-Show Roy's confrontation with Xykon.
-Show Redcloak's "what have I done" moment, including rallying the hobgoblins to charge the breach
-Show Haley and the rest of the party, including Haley's attempt to kill distract Redcloak from
-Show the final scene in the throne room, show Miko destroying the gate.
-Show the splitting of the Party.
-Maybe skip Celestia with Roy, maybe not. Show that the fleet is low on supplies, V is going insane failing to locate Haley (probably skip the whole scene with Kubota and Therkla).
-Go to the Resistance, the creation of the state of Gobbotopia, the elven insurgents.
-Have the Resistance and the elves capture the phylactery.
-Have Haley leave Gobbotopia to seek out the rest of the party.
-Show the ancient black dragon, V selling her soul, the battle in Ivyleaf.
-Show V's confrontation with Xykon (maybe switch with plot point directly below)
-Show V locate the rest of the party using her new spells (if Greysky City is skipped)
-Show the party reunited, Xykon's phylactery in the hands of the Resistance (it gets lost in the next movie), Roy resurrected, etc. for the ending.
This is a lot, but a three-hour movie is not *that* bad, if it means that there are more details. Also, I know that sometimes changing the plot is required in adaptions, but I am trying to stay semi-true to the comic. I don't entirely know what the plot for the second movie would be. Note that the plot that I just gave is all just a suggestion, so you could feel free to use it (or parts), or feel free to reject it (or parts).
I find that there are two directions that this movie could go if it will have a sequel: make it a two-parter, or wrap up the first movie totally and have a sequel which raises questions of its own (instead of playing off of questions raised in the first one). I would rather the movie go in the second direction, mainly because it would take a lot of work to make one movie, so it is questionable whether or not the second will be made in the near future. I would find it somewhat annoying if the first movie raises questions about Redcloak and the Dark One's plan, doesn't have the party get back together, etc, and then it is decided that it would take too much work to create a sequel. I think that another benefit of this plan would be that it allows for the movies to be longer, "standalone" films instead of forcing the movies to be on the shorter side to allow for a two parter. A singular movie in a two-parter cannot be 2.5 or 3 hours, because it make the two-parter 5 to 6 hours. However, two "standalone" movie can be 3 hours each, because it is less like a 6 hour movie and more like two 3 hour ones.
In addition, I would like to share with everybody an alternate plot that I have developed based off of the original one. This plot is if the movie goes in the direction that I suggested in the above paragraph. For the first movie, the plot would be as follows:
-Start off with a montage showing the group going through the Dungeon of Dorukan. Have Haley introduce herself, the party, their quest, etc.
-Show encounter with Linear Guild. Mainly show the battle, with Haley explaining how they met the Guild.
-Show Haley being separated from the party, after being "captured" by the teenage goblin.
-Show Xykon and Redcloak preparing for their encounter with the Order.
-Show the battle with Xykon. As with all movie adaptions of books (or in this case, webcomics), make the battle longer, and detailed. Maybe exaggerate the size of Xykon's "army" guarding the Gate.
-Quickly show sidequest to reforge Roy's sword. Just enough to see the dragon. (2 mins on the quest, 3-5 mins on the dragon)
-Quickly show Xykon reforging his army in the Southern Mountains. (5 mins max)
-Have Miko come and capture the Order, show fight scenes. Don't go into as much detail about the journey as the comic, don't talk about the dirt farm, maybe talk about the inn (but I doubt it).
-Show an abridged version of the trial. Enough to show the background exposition.
-Maybe Oracle?
-Go to Cliffport, have the Order fight the Linear Guild.
-Have the Order come back to Azure City. Have Elan come back, quick flashback to his escape from Cliffport prison.
-Show Miko killing Shojo.
-Introduce Hinjo. He won't really do much in the movie, but it's just good to establish a leader of AC.
-Have Haley confess her love for Elan. I don't know what to do with the aphasia thing, but I still want her to fall in love with him now.
-Show the battle for Azure City in all of its miraculous glory. Make the battle big dramatic, and exciting.
-Show Roy's confrontation with Xykon.
-Show Redcloak's "what have I done" moment, including rallying the hobgoblins to charge the breach
-Show Haley and the rest of the party, including Haley's attempt to kill distract Redcloak from
-Show the final scene in the throne room, show Miko destroying the gate.
-Show the splitting of the Party.
-Maybe skip Celestia with Roy, maybe not. Show that the fleet is low on supplies, V is going insane failing to locate Haley (probably skip the whole scene with Kubota and Therkla).
-Go to the Resistance, the creation of the state of Gobbotopia, the elven insurgents.
-Have the Resistance and the elves capture the phylactery.
-Have Haley leave Gobbotopia to seek out the rest of the party.
-Show the ancient black dragon, V selling her soul, the battle in Ivyleaf.
-Show V's confrontation with Xykon (maybe switch with plot point directly below)
-Show V locate the rest of the party using her new spells (if Greysky City is skipped)
-Show the party reunited, Xykon's phylactery in the hands of the Resistance (it gets lost in the next movie), Roy resurrected, etc. for the ending.
This is a lot, but a three-hour movie is not *that* bad, if it means that there are more details. Also, I know that sometimes changing the plot is required in adaptions, but I am trying to stay semi-true to the comic. I don't entirely know what the plot for the second movie would be. Note that the plot that I just gave is all just a suggestion, so you could feel free to use it (or parts), or feel free to reject it (or parts).
Yeah, it is good to see another perspective. The biggest differences between this one and the current one is that this one doesn't skim through the first dungeon, includes the Linear guild, includes Cliffport, includes Team Peregrine, has Hinjo as the leader instead of O-Chul, and makes Haley leave the city before the resistance is crushed.
Since Haley is the main character, though, she really does need to be involved in the climax. Hence the importance of her sticking with the resistance til the end, when Redcloak crushes it after she steals the Phylactery.
Actually, a good amount of The Plan is revealed in this plot and the party ends back together with Roy raised.
Solse
2013-02-09, 11:54 AM
Actually, I want to make it clear that this one *does* skim through everything in the first dungeon except for Xykon (and the Linear Guild). I consider the goblin teenager capturing Haley a part of the encounter with Xykon. I also like the part where Haley is split from the party because it gives her some "solo action", because after all, she is the main character. The dungeon scene will only be 5 to 10 minutes at most, but I just wanted to make it detailed. Who says that a montage cannot be detailed? Also, about including Cliffport, I previously mentioned that it wouldn't be that bad to have a 3-hour movie. I feel that if we make the movie longer, we could include more details. To touch on Team Peregrine, I always thought as them as a part of the Resistance (even though they were not a part of Haley's original resistance movement, or one of the two others). In the comics at least, Team Peregrine was instrumental to the reclaiming of the phylactery. Also, so the story focuses a little more on Haley, maybe we could change the effects of the Cloister so V could reach Haley with the birds (or maybe some divination spell she acquired after the Soul Splice) even while she is in the city. Maybe V could say in the message that she needs to defeat Xykon first, and maybe have Redcloak crush the Resistance while V engages Xykon.
What I thought that the main difference between the plot that I just posted and the current plot is that the one that I posted is better for a longer movie, while the current plot is more for a two-parter. That is mainly why I included more details.
Solse
2013-02-09, 01:02 PM
Also, if we try an animated movie, there are a couple of options to consider:
Should it be 3D or 2D?
If it's 2D, should it use a stick figure animator or should every frame be hand-drawn?
How detailed should the animation be?
What should the framerate be?
All of these options have to be considered, but I still prefer an animation to a live-action movie.
Zolkabro
2013-02-10, 11:33 AM
Wow. I'm away from the Playground for only a couple of days, but a lot has been happening...
So, my views on all of this stuff:
Firstly, I think this should stay live-action, and hypothetical. If we make an animation it will not be of a good standard, and it will only be a disappointment to everyone. Also, we will be sharply limited by our own capabilities. But planning out a blockbuster movie, with unlimited budget, actors, and we write the script? Millions of times more fun. I have been inspired by your enthusiasm, Jhunter, and so I say we write the entire script, rather than just planning it and writing tidbits. I think that that would be amazing. But I think that anything we make will be limiting, disappointing, and frustating compared with the limitless idyllic freedom we get from the hypothetical. So let's just script it, plan locations, plan cast, plan director, everything, except making it.
And, as this is all hypothetical, we can guarantee a sequel, and put as much build up and mystery into the first one to be resolved in the second as we want.
But even if we were making this and didn't know if there would be a sequel, I would still include the build-up of Redcloak's motives and stuff like that, to leave the option open. Not doing that would frankly make any sequel crap. We couldn't start with something like that, that's the sort of thing you need as a cliffhanger.
I know you said that this change makes it more equipped to be a two parter, but IMO it makes it far, far less.
Secondly, when I agreed to cutting Greysky I was remembering it as just a cool action section, but nothing essential. But the more I think about it, the more I think that it is something we really need in here. It gives us loads of Haley's backstory, and gives her massive character development, something I would be willing to cut if we had kept Roy as the main character, but something this huge happening to our lead? Also, scrapping Greysky means scrapping the entire Mark of Justice plot, which is a really bad move for Belkar, especially considering the sequel. It can't be cut.
But, how can we take Haley out of Azure City then send her back? It can be movied, but where to?
It's a problem. I'm out of ideas, I afraid.
[EDIT: Idea:
So, Greysky includes a strip which many people on the forums say is one of the best strips in the comic. That's this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html) one, a head-spinningly amazing climax to the Greysky arc. The strips preceding it are also amazing: Shojo's talk with Belkar is one of my favourite bits in the whole thing. Even if we don't include Greysky, I want that to happen.
But I digress. This strip also has a back and forth pattern similar to that which we were planning for the climax of the movie.
So why not make this part of that? The climax can bounce between V vs Xykon, RC crushing the Resistance, and Greysky.
Now, this presents it's own set of problems: It means Haley can't be there for the crushing, it means that our main character is engaged with a really minor villain in the movie climax, etc. But it may be worth it. We'd have to cut a lot of the Greysky following this, but adding Haley about to die and Belkar restored into a megalomaniac might make the climax even climaxier.
OR it might cheapen and overcomplicate it.
So yeah, this suggestion may or may not work. But I'm putting it out there as something to think about.]
Thirdly, re: the opening montage:
I still say it stays a montage, but still emphasises the battle with Xykon and with the Linear Guild. This is more than possible, it doesn't need to be done conventionally to be done well. Once again I use as my example the beginning of Up from Pixar. For those who haven't seen it, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh7kVYYBNyk) is part of it. I couldn't find all of it on YouTube, but all that's missing is an introductory scene where Carl and Ellie meet.
This shows how much you can accomplish with just a montage. We won't need words, music perfectly conveys everything. We won't need more time, this just told two people's entire life story in four minutes. We can have the heroes bumbling through the dungeon, they meet the Guild, dramatic reveal, fight scene, they win, BIG BATTLE, woo, finish with everybody in the exact pose they are at the end DCF.
If we don't have Xykon and the Guild as part of the montage, then we don't have a montage at all. They would be the main events in it. Let's just leave the opening as is, that's sorted, and sort out all the problems we're having in other bits.
Fourthly, whoever said that we should scrap all D&D related jokes, absolutely no way. The entire audience does not have to get every joke, different bits will get different things. Yes, we can tone it down a bit, and we won't have stuff like them failing a spot check and missing an entire army, but we will definately keep them referring to eachothers classes, calling spells by their D&D names, etc. To get rid of them is to change OOTS beyond recognition. It is, after all, once you get past everything else, a D&D comic.
Fifthly, re: Plot Point X, I say that, as the Oracle is essential to the plot, we spend just five minutes or so on an Oracle in the mountains outside the city. A quick trip out to an Oracle without the big long journey I think is enough. Just, do the tests, which are nothing more than quick gags in the comic and can stay that way in the movie, and then get your answer, with all the hilarious cuts to Xykon prepping for Azure City, Roy realising, then BOOM memory gone. It shouldn't take long. And we have to cut Cliffport, as if we have Cliffport we also need Julio Scoundrel and Nale infiltrating the order and the rescue, and Haley's voice, and it's just dominoes. There is no way we can have all that in. Julio Scoundrel will be inserted somehow in the second movie, and everything else, well, say goodbye. [EDIT: Wait, we need the dead wizard. So, the Oracle can be on an island in an ocean somewhere instead of super nearby and Shojo's wizard teleported them, and then tried and failed to teleport them back after raiding the Oracle's booze supplies.]
Finally, my responses to all the other much smaller things:
I don't want to skip Roy in heaven. We don't need to spend as long on it, but nor do we want to show Haley at any point before when the comic does, so either we have Roy or a "3 months later" thing which I think is far less satisfying because it misses the whole "It's been THREE MONTHS? Whaaaaaat?!?" thing.
Hinjo vs O-Chul, Jhunter, you said we can establish Hinjo as the ruler, then forget about him for the rest of the movie.
What?
You can't establish somebody in a role that major and then just vanish them. Either we give Hinjo all of the time he deserves as well as O-Chul (not an easy feat) or we just merge them. It's pretty clear which is the better move.
I don't see why we should get rid of Team Peregrine. Not because they're too important to get rid off, they're just not important enough to need to get rid off. Why cut them? The small addition of power to the Resistance will be welcomed by Haley, and getting rid of them really doesn't solve anything. They don't cause any problems by being there, they're just some amusing and vaguely interesting minor characters. Every film needs some of those. So, yeah, good move including them, Jhunter.
I think that's pretty much everything that's happened. I'll edit if I remember anything else.
Wow. I'm away from the Playground for only a couple of days, but a lot has been happening...
So, my views on all of this stuff:
Firstly, I think this should stay live-action, and hypothetical. If we make an animation it will not be of a good standard, and it will only be a disappointment to everyone. Also, we will be sharply limited by our own capabilities. But planning out a blockbuster movie, with unlimited budget, actors, and we write the script? Millions of times more fun. I have been inspired by your enthusiasm, Jhunter, and so I say we write the entire script, rather than just planning it and writing tidbits. I think that that would be amazing. But I think that anything we make will be limiting, disappointing, and frustating compared with the limitless idyllic freedom we get from the hypothetical. So let's just script it, plan locations, plan cast, plan director, everything, except making it.
And, as this is all hypothetical, we can guarantee a sequel, and put as much build up and mystery into the first one to be resolved in the second as we want.
But even if we were making this and didn't know if there would be a sequel, I would still include the build-up of Redcloak's motives and stuff like that, to leave the option open. Not doing that would frankly make any sequel crap. We couldn't start with something like that, that's the sort of thing you need as a cliffhanger.
I know you said that this change makes it more equipped to be a two parter, but IMO it makes it far, far less.
Secondly, when I agreed to cutting Greysky I was remembering it as just a cool action section, but nothing essential. But the more I think about it, the more I think that it is something we really need in here. It gives us loads of Haley's backstory, and gives her massive character development, something I would be willing to cut if we had kept Roy as the main character, but something this huge happening to our lead? Also, scrapping Greysky means scrapping the entire Mark of Justice plot, which is a really bad move for Belkar, especially considering the sequel. It can't be cut.
But, how can we take Haley out of Azure City then send her back? It can be movied, but where to?
It's a problem. I'm out of ideas, I afraid.
[EDIT: Idea:
So, Greysky includes a strip which many people on the forums say is one of the best strips in the comic. That's this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html) one, a head-spinningly amazing climax to the Greysky arc. The strips preceding it are also amazing: Shojo's talk with Belkar is one of my favourite bits in the whole thing. Even if we don't include Greysky, I want that to happen.
But I digress. This strip also has a back and forth pattern similar to that which we were planning for the climax of the movie.
So why not make this part of that? The climax can bounce between V vs Xykon, RC crushing the Resistance, and Greysky.
Now, this presents it's own set of problems: It means Haley can't be there for the crushing, it means that our main character is engaged with a really minor villain in the movie climax, etc. But it may be worth it. We'd have to cut a lot of the Greysky following this, but adding Haley about to die and Belkar restored into a megalomaniac might make the climax even climaxier.
OR it might cheapen and overcomplicate it.
So yeah, this suggestion may or may not work. But I'm putting it out there as something to think about.]
Thirdly, re: the opening montage:
I still say it stays a montage, but still emphasises the battle with Xykon and with the Linear Guild. This is more than possible, it doesn't need to be done conventionally to be done well. Once again I use as my example the beginning of Up from Pixar. For those who haven't seen it, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh7kVYYBNyk) is part of it. I couldn't find all of it on YouTube, but all that's missing is an introductory scene where Carl and Ellie meet.
This shows how much you can accomplish with just a montage. We won't need words, music perfectly conveys everything. We won't need more time, this just told two people's entire life story in four minutes. We can have the heroes bumbling through the dungeon, they meet the Guild, dramatic reveal, fight scene, they win, BIG BATTLE, woo, finish with everybody in the exact pose they are at the end DCF.
If we don't have Xykon and the Guild as part of the montage, then we don't have a montage at all. They would be the main events in it. Let's just leave the opening as is, that's sorted, and sort out all the problems we're having in other bits.
Fourthly, whoever said that we should scrap all D&D related jokes, absolutely no way. The entire audience does not have to get every joke, different bits will get different things. Yes, we can tone it down a bit, and we won't have stuff like them failing a spot check and missing an entire army, but we will definately keep them referring to eachothers classes, calling spells by their D&D names, etc. To get rid of them is to change OOTS beyond recognition. It is, after all, once you get past everything else, a D&D comic.
Fifthly, re: Plot Point X, I say that, as the Oracle is essential to the plot, we spend just five minutes or so on an Oracle in the mountains outside the city. A quick trip out to an Oracle without the big long journey I think is enough. Just, do the tests, which are nothing more than quick gags in the comic and can stay that way in the movie, and then get your answer, with all the hilarious cuts to Xykon prepping for Azure City, Roy realising, then BOOM memory gone. It shouldn't take long. And we have to cut Cliffport, as if we have Cliffport we also need Julio Scoundrel and Nale infiltrating the order and the rescue, and Haley's voice, and it's just dominoes. There is no way we can have all that in. Julio Scoundrel will be inserted somehow in the second movie, and everything else, well, say goodbye. [EDIT: Wait, we need the dead wizard. So, the Oracle can be on an island in an ocean somewhere instead of super nearby and Shojo's wizard teleported them, and then tried and failed to teleport them back after raiding the Oracle's booze supplies.]
Finally, my responses to all the other much smaller things:
I don't want to skip Roy in heaven. We don't need to spend as long on it, but nor do we want to show Haley at any point before when the comic does, so either we have Roy or a "3 months later" thing which I think is far less satisfying because it misses the whole "It's been THREE MONTHS? Whaaaaaat?!?" thing.
Hinjo vs O-Chul, Jhunter, you said we can establish Hinjo as the ruler, then forget about him for the rest of the movie.
What?
You can't establish somebody in a role that major and then just vanish them. Either we give Hinjo all of the time he deserves as well as O-Chul (not an easy feat) or we just merge them. It's pretty clear which is the better move.
I don't see why we should get rid of Team Peregrine. Not because they're too important to get rid off, they're just not important enough to need to get rid off. Why cut them? The small addition of power to the Resistance will be welcomed by Haley, and getting rid of them really doesn't solve anything. They don't cause any problems by being there, they're just some amusing and vaguely interesting minor characters. Every film needs some of those. So, yeah, good move including them, Jhunter.
I think that's pretty much everything that's happened. I'll edit if I remember anything else.
As for team P, sure, why not. During Haley's raid where Tsukiko shows up, Team P. can already be present. And we can have the 'dead goblin' gag. Which is A. funny and B. might get the audience to wonder for a second if Gobtoppia is really in the wrong. Which is a good thing to do, get the audience to think. Gets them more engaged. I'm outvoted here, it seems, but I don't really mind. Adding them doesn't take anything away.
As for Greysky... Right now, the script flows. Everything is related and the plot points build upon each other. Adding a big plot point leaving the city, making Haley leave AC, etc. etc. is clunky, I think. And it hurts the climax a lot. But you are right that it adds quite a bit, and you are both right that with Haley as the main character it hurts to lose it. It seems everyone is really attached to it, which goes to say something. Hmmm...
Here is an option. Remove Greysky City. We never put it in. However, during the sequel, one of the towns in Tarquin's empire is essentially Greysky, (I mean, shoot, we could call it Greysky, still,) and it is where Haley grew up. Haley has still never seen Tarquin, maybe her little chunk was never even under Tarquin's rule specifically and now it is.
So Haley growing up under such a tyrannical leadership would actually link in to her wanting to lead the resistance. Maybe her dad lead a failed resistance once, too, and now they can kinda bond over that. Anyway, maybe Haley decides that they should talk to someone she used to know in the local thieves guild who is a guru and might know of Girard. But that guy ends up betraying them and they have to fight their way out. We can do the Mark of Justice thing here if it works.
Celia could even show up. Like, everyone expected to take it easy in a real town for a few days since Haley was just going to be looking up an old friend and so Roy wanted to see his girlfriend he hadn't seen in half a year.
We can have this sequence end in them being arrested. Maybe the whole battle drew so much attention that when they resolve the guild business and then step outside, there are hundreds of guards there. Belkar is ready to spill some level one warrior blood, Roy says no, and Belkar uncharacteristically listens. (Which shows that Shojo's talk is already working.) And then they are taken to the main city.
At customs, the prison keeper is like, "Whoa! Priority one prisoner!" and sends 'Nale' straight to Tarquin. We can now play out that scene. Now it all links to the main plot, doesn't take significantly more time than any other way to kick off the movie, (and it starts off the first act of the sequel with a plot line related to our main character. Which is important, since pretty soon the emphasis shifts to Elan for a while.)
Also, we are introduced to the Linear Guild before we see them. Everyone talks with venom about Elan and his Guild of followers, and so we expect someone just as sinister as Tarquin. When we meet Nale, however, it will be.. well, Nale. A little disappointing, but mostly funny.
What do y'all think?
Zolkabro
2013-02-10, 02:21 PM
As for team P, sure, why not. During Haley's raid where Tsukiko shows up, Team P. can already be present. And we can have the 'dead goblin' gag. Which is A. funny and B. might get the audience to wonder for a second if Gobtoppia is really in the wrong. Which is a good thing to do, get the audience to think. Gets them more engaged. I'm outvoted here, it seems, but I don't really mind. Adding them doesn't take anything away.
As for Greysky... Right now, the script flows. Everything is related and the plot points build upon each other. Adding a big plot point leaving the city, making Haley leave AC, etc. etc. is clunky, I think. And it hurts the climax a lot. But you are right that it adds quite a bit, and you are both right that with Haley as the main character it hurts to lose it. It seems everyone is really attached to it, which goes to say something. Hmmm...
Here is an option. Remove Greysky City. We never put it in. However, during the sequel, one of the towns in Tarquin's empire is essentially Greysky, (I mean, shoot, we could call it Greysky, still,) and it is where Haley grew up. Haley has still never seen Tarquin, maybe her little chunk was never even under Tarquin's rule specifically and now it is.
So Haley growing up under such a tyrannical leadership would actually link in to her wanting to lead the resistance. Maybe her dad lead a failed resistance once, too, and now they can kinda bond over that. Anyway, maybe Haley decides that they should talk to someone she used to know in the local thieves guild who is a guru and might know of Girard. But that guy ends up betraying them and they have to fight their way out. We can do the Mark of Justice thing here if it works.
We can have this sequence end in them being arrested. Maybe the whole battle drew so much attention that when they resolve the guild business and then step outside, there are hundreds of guards there. Belkar is ready to spill some level one warrior blood, Roy says no, and Belkar uncharacteristically listens. (Which shows that Shojo's talk is already working.) And then they are taken to the main city.
At customs, the prison keeper is like, "Whoa! Priority one prisoner!" and sends 'Nale' straight to Tarquin. We can now play out that scene. Now it all links to the main plot, doesn't take significantly more time than any other way to kick off the movie, (and it starts off the first act of the sequel with a plot line related to our main character. Which is important, since pretty soon the emphasis shifts to Elan for a while.)
Also, we are introduced to the Linear Guild before we see them. Everyone talks with venom about Elan and his Guild of followers, and so we expect someone just as sinister as Tarquin. When we meet Nale, however, it will be.. well, Nale. A little disappointing, but mostly funny.
What do y'all think?
Hm. I agree with your premise, it's a great idea, but, once again, this solves a number of problems, and presents many more of it's own.
Greysky needs to be just Haley and Belkar. But everyone else can't be in it. So where do they go?
Who does all the negotiating if we don't have Celia.
Also, if she was already on the same continent as her dad, why would Haley travel to the mainland, if finding her father was her goal? Why is she travelling with a group of Northenors?
When did Belkar break his Mark of Justice?
Also, I don't think it should end with them being arrested, because that means we don't get the truce, but then Haley murdering Crystal, which I think is a pretty important moment for her.
Also, we saw the Guild in the first movie, remember? In the montage? So they'll already know their identities.
Possible solutions:
They've come out of the desert to start searching towns. Haley doesn't want to go to Greysky, she knows what it means for her. Years ago, she was kicked out of the Thieves Guild, and forced so far away she had to leave the continent (hence her being with the Order). But she won't tell the others. So into Greysky they go, and Haley must, for the team, search the local thieves guild.
It doesn't take long for Bozzock to hear that she is back in town, and she goes into hiding, again not telling the rest of the Order. Belkar forces himself along, maybe? Not too sure about that. And Elan won't leave her, so he comes. She hides out with Old Blind Pete, who sells her out, and then it progresses as in the comic.
Elan negotiates as Celia did, what with him being a negotiator and all, they make a truce. Bozzock and Hank then agree to tell Haley what they know about Draketooth: that a man named Draketooth was seen in Bleedingham. So Haley tells the others of her discovery, but not the details, and they go to Bleedingham, but are ambushed. Then proceed as in the comic.
The Mark of Justice arc does not happen during this. I say we add a part to the first movie: Belkar kills somebody in the Resistance, and the MoJ activates. Haley flips out like with the Oracle, and kicks him out if the Order. But she won't kill him, and puts him in a prison cell. Then, we can have Shojo talking to him just before the climax, and then he gets freed by one of the elves, desperate for help, he saves Haley's life, and they escape as Redcloak crushes the resistance. Shojo's big speech also helps with the build-up to the climax, and then we have the "What are you, Belkar?" in with the rest of the crushing in the climax.
How does all of that sound? It's mostly just building on what you said, but I think it solves most of the issues. You okay with everything in that?
Hm. I agree with your premise, it's a great idea, but, once again, this solves a number of problems, and presents many more of it's own.
Greysky needs to be just Haley and Belkar. But everyone else can't be in it. So where do they go?
Who does all the negotiating if we don't have Celia.
Also, if she was already on the same continent as her dad, why would Haley travel to the mainland, if finding her father was her goal? Why is she travelling with a group of Northenors?
When did Belkar break his Mark of Justice?
Also, I don't think it should end with them being arrested, because that means we don't get the truce, but then Haley murdering Crystal, which I think is a pretty important moment for her.
Also, we saw the Guild in the first movie, remember? In the montage? So they'll already know their identities.
Possible solutions:
They've come out of the desert to start searching towns. Haley doesn't want to go to Greysky, she knows what it means for her. Years ago, she was kicked out of the Thieves Guild, and forced so far away she had to leave the continent (hence her being with the Order). But she won't tell the others. So into Greysky they go, and Haley must, for the team, search the local thieves guild. It doesn't take long for Bozzock to hear that she is back in town, and she goes into hiding, again not telling the rest of the Order. Belkar forces himself along, maybe? Not too sure about that. And Elan won't leave her, so he comes. She hides out with Old Blind Pete, who sells her out, and then it progresses as in the comic. Elan negotiates as Celia did, what with him being a negotiator and all, they make a truce. Bozzock and Hank then agree to tell Haley what they know about Draketooth: that a man named Draketooth was seen in Bleedingham. So Haley tells the others of her discovery, but not the details, and they go to Bleedingham, but are ambushed. Then proceed as in the comic.
The Mark of Justice arc does not happen during this. I say we add a part to the first movie: Belkar kills somebody in the Resistance, and the MoJ activates. Haley flips out like with the Oracle, and kicks him out if the Order. But she won't kill him, and puts him in a prison cell. Then, we can have Shojo talking to him just before the climax, and then he gets freed by one of the elves, desperate for help, he saves Haley's life, and they escape as Redcloak crushes the resistance. Shojo's big speech also helps with the build-up to the climax, and then we have the "What are you, Belkar?" in with the rest of the crushing in the climax.
How does all of that sound? It's mostly just building on what you said, but I think it solves most of the issues. You okay with everything in that?
I like the idea of putting the Shojo scene near the end of the first movie. Makes a lot of sense.
As for the Greysky scene, Celia could be there. Roy thinks he is just going into a town and so decides to meet Celia there since he hasn't seen her in months. I like the Celia/Haley dynamic. In your idea, why does Belkar need to be with Haley if he doesn't have the MoJ?
We can work out the kinks, but since we can fit the Greysky thing into the opening of the second movie, (it has to be done fairly quickly but we can pull that off especially if it doesn't have the MoJ plotline,) we don't need to worry about it in the first one.
Zolkabro
2013-02-10, 02:32 PM
I like the idea of putting the Shojo scene near the end of the first movie. Makes a lot of sense.
As for the Greysky scene, Celia could be there. Roy thinks he is just going into a town and so decides to meet Celia there since he hasn't seen her in months. I like the Celia/Haley dynamic. In your idea, why does Belkar need to be with Haley if he doesn't have the MoJ?
We can work out the kinks, but since we can fit the Greysky thing into the opening of the second movie, (it has to be done fairly quickly but we can pull that off especially if it doesn't have the MoJ plotline,) we don't need to worry about it in the first one.
Huh, I didn't think of that. We don't really need Belkar in there, unless we want to have a second fighter anyway.
Also, I think that we will have had plenty of Haley/Celia stuff in the first movie, and it doesn't make much sense for Celia to come all the way to the Western Continent (Especially since Roy saw her at the end of the first movie, just a month or two ago). It's easier to make this just Elan and Haley. Besides, a solo adventure with those two would really build on their relationship, something happening a lot in the second movie.
Also, we established earlier that the Julio Scoundrel arc could happen in the second movie. But when? I'm thinking that maybe we don't need Julio Scoundrel at all, and Tarquin trains Elan. Tarquin isn't a Dashing Swordsman, but he can still have the sourcebook, and is more than dashing enough and more than capable with a sword enough to teach Elan. I think this would also really build on the father-son bond we would be establishing here.
Solse
2013-02-10, 02:32 PM
Zolkabro wants the OOTS movie to stay hypothetical, but I would actually want a "tangible" movie, so therefore, I am "splitting" this thread into two factions. I have created a thread called The OOTS Animated Film Discussion Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14686642#post14686642), for discussion of an actual movie.
Zolkabro
2013-02-10, 02:41 PM
Zolkabro wants the OOTS movie to stay hypothetical, but I would actually want a "tangible" movie, so therefore, I am "splitting" this thread into two factions. I have created a thread called The OOTS Animated Film Discussion Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14686642#post14686642), for discussion of an actual movie.
Um. Well, I'd rather you didn't, but if you're sure that's what you want to do I've got no right to stop you, but I'd like to suggest two conditions:
Firstly, keep it realistic in yours. I want it to stay hypothetical because then we have limitless creativity, rather than being limited by our very small resources. So, don't, when planning this, decide you are going to have animation of the style and standard used by multi-national animation companies (which you could do if it was kept hypothetical)
Secondly, could you not poach plot ideas from us? And if you really must, then ask SowZ, as the leader of this project, and say you did in your thread.
Huh, I didn't think of that. We don't really need Belkar in there, unless we want to have a second fighter anyway.
Also, I think that we will have had plenty of Haley/Celia stuff in the first movie, and it doesn't make much sense for Celia to come all the way to the Western Continent (Especially since Roy saw her at the end of the first movie, just a month or two ago). It's easier to make this just Elan and Haley. Besides, a solo adventure with those two would really build on their relationship, something happening a lot in the second movie.
Also, we established earlier that the Julio Scoundrel arc could happen in the second movie. But when? I'm thinking that maybe we don't need Julio Scoundrel at all, and Tarquin trains Elan. Tarquin isn't a Dashing Swordsman, but he can still have the sourcebook, and is more than dashing enough and more than capable with a sword enough to teach Elan. I think this would also really build on the father-son bond we would be establishing here.
It is no harder for Celia to come to the western continent than it is for her to go anywhere else. You literally just summon her wherever you are at, she is an outsider. We haven't fit Celia in at all, yet. I think it is actually easier to do in the second movie than the first.
Why couldn't the whole party be in the battle with the thieves guild?
Yeah, we could cut out Julio Scoundrel. Shoot, Tarquin could even do the same gags, (never underestimate a good training montage,) and it would be in character.
Solse
2013-02-10, 02:46 PM
I was the one who said cut out the D&D jokes. I realized now that it is good to keep a few D&D jokes, as long as the audience does not feel overwhelmed. I always wanted to keep spell names, class names, etc.
About Team Peregrine, I openly think that we should keep them. The "dead goblin" joke should be put in the movie for all of the reasons that Zoklabro said.
About the Dungeon of Dorukan, I think that it should be a montage (again, as Zoklabro said), but emphasize the Linear Guild fight, and the Xykon fight.
About Greysky, I do not like the idea of moving the city to an entirely different continent. I winced when I saw minor discrepancies between the Fellowship of the Ring and its movie adaption. I think that if we do keep Greysky City, it has to be like in the comic. No Elan as a negotiator, no Tarquin, just plain vanilla Greysky. I am aware that some things have to change in adaptions of comics to other mediums, but what Zoklabro suggested about Greysky was too much for me.
About Hinjo and O-Chul, I want to keep them separate, but do not know how to do so. It might be easier to combine the characters, but I would rather take the harder route in this situation.
I find that for the most part, the movie should proceed as in the comic. Some parts might have to be shortened/lengthened/cut, but mostly, the movie and the comic should follow the same plot line. I don't want Tarquin taking the place of Julio Scoundrél. I don't want to move places to different continents. I want the movie and comic to parallel one another.
Solse
2013-02-10, 02:49 PM
To quote from The OOTS Animated Film Discussion Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14686642#post14686642):
"Zolkabro wants to keep the proposed movie hypothetical, a just for fun project. I would actually want to see Roy and Xykon duke it out, in animated form. Therefore, I am splitting the OOTS Screenplay Initiative into two factions: the pre-existing one, and this one, the OOTS Animated Film Discussion Thread. This thread is for those who would really want to see a tangible result of the hard work of making a movie. Plot suggestions, animation decisions, etc. go here but actor suggestions and things that are "just for fun" go on the other thread. I hope that this thread is put to good use and that soon enough, we could enjoy an Order of the Stick movie."
I am creating a new thread for suggestions that could actually apply to an animated film. While this thread is for hypothetical dreaming, the one which I linked to is for the real-deal creation of an OOTS movie.
Zolkabro
2013-02-10, 02:54 PM
We haven't fit Celia in at all, yet. Um, yes we have? I thought we had established before that she would be summoned in the movie exactly how she was in the comic, and then would be part of the resistance with Haley, and escape with her and Belkar.
I think having Celia in that role is fairly important, because she represents the audience: Seeing everything anew, and it gives Haley an excuse to explain what has happened in the past three months. That gives the audience a window to look in through, and you always need a character like that. That's why the Doctor in Doctor Who always has a companion from modern times: the audience sees everything through their eyes.
Also, we need Celia to identify the Cloister.
Also, there's just the reason of why not. As far as I can see, this won't present any problems (which makes a nice change :smalltongue:)
Why couldn't the whole party be in the battle with the thieves guild
Because that would mean we could have zero character development for Haley, this is the sort of thing you want as an either solo or small party adventure, and most importantly, it would require huge amounts of rewriting which frankly are just not worth our time.
I was the one who said cut out the D&D jokes. I realized now that it is good to keep a few D&D jokes, as long as the audience does not feel overwhelmed. I always wanted to keep spell names, class names, etc.
About Team Peregrine, I openly think that we should keep them. The "dead goblin" joke should be put in the movie for all of the reasons that Zoklabro said.
About the Dungeon of Dorukan, I think that it should be a montage (again, as Zoklabro said), but emphasize the Linear Guild fight, and the Xykon fight.
About Greysky, I do not like the idea of moving the city to an entirely different continent. I winced when I saw minor discrepancies between the Fellowship of the Ring and its movie adaption. I think that if we do keep Greysky City, it has to be like in the comic. No Elan as a negotiator, no Tarquin, just plain vanilla Greysky. I am aware that some things have to change in adaptions of comics to other mediums, but what Zoklabro suggested about Greysky was too much for me.
About Hinjo and O-Chul, I want to keep them separate, but do not know how to do so. It might be easier to combine the characters, but I would rather take the harder route in this situation.
I find that for the most part, the movie should proceed as in the comic. Some parts might have to be shortened/lengthened/cut, but mostly, the movie and the comic should follow the same plotline.
I really empathise with you on your reluctancy to make changes. I, also, dislike it when movies mess with the source material. But to a certain extent, it is neccessary. We're not going to make it unrecognisable, and we're going to stick very closely to the general plot. But many parts of the plot have to be changed for the good of the movie.
Comics and movies are very different mediums told in very different ways. To adapt one to the other, you have to adapt many details, and sadly this means changing things. Even moreso than when converting a book to movie. It's unfortuantely inavoidable.
Also, in future, when you want to make an addition, could you just edit it into a previous post? Double posts tend to be annoying, only do them when absolutely necessary. Thanks.
Solse
2013-02-10, 02:57 PM
I just want to say that I am not not ever going on this thread ever again. When I said that I split the thread, I meant that I would take the ideas from this thread and apply them to a real, tangible work.
EDIT: I forgot a "not". It looked like I would never log on to this thread again, but then I changed what I said.
Um, yes we have? I thought we had established before that she would be summoned in the movie exactly how she was in the comic, and then would be part of the resistance with Haley, and escape with her and Belkar.
I think having Celia in that role is fairly important, because she represents the audience: Seeing everything anew, and it gives Haley an excuse to explain what has happened in the past three months. That gives the audience a window to look in through, and you always need a character like that. That's why the Doctor in Doctor Who always has a companion from modern times: the audience sees everything through their eyes.
Also, we need Celia to identify the Cloister.
Also, there's just the reason of why not. As far as I can see, this won't present any problems (which makes a nice change :smalltongue:)
Because that would mean we could have zero character development for Haley, this is the sort of thing you want as an either solo or small party adventure, and most importantly, it would require huge amounts of rewriting which frankly are just not worth our time.
I really empathise with you on your reluctancy to make changes. I, also, dislike it when movies mess with the source material. But to a certain extent, it is neccessary. We're not going to make it unrecognisable, and we're going to stick very closely to the general plot. But many parts of the plot have to be changed for the good of the movie.
Comics and movies are very different mediums told in very different ways. To adapt one to the other, you have to adapt many details, and sadly this means changing things. Even moreso than when converting a book to movie. It's unfortuantely inavoidable.
Also, in future, when you want to make an addition, could you just edit it into a previous post? Double posts tend to be annoying, only do them when absolutely necessary. Thanks.
I don't remember us ever bringing up Celia, but I could be wrong. We weren't going to have her in Dorukan or in the courtroom, but I suppose there is no reason she couldn't be with Haley during the Resistance, summoned by the medallion and helping guard over Roy's body.
Hmm, you are probably right about the solo adventure thing. Just brainstorming, because with the party unsplit, having the whole group there is an option, now. One we should consider. But it would have less Haley development.
I still like it culminating in the groups arrest, though, since it segways nicely into the main plot. So it still feels very relevant.
I just want to say that I am not not ever going on this thread ever again. When I said that I split the thread, I meant that I would take the ideas from this thread and apply them to a real, tangible work.
EDIT: I forgot a "not". It looked like I would never log on to this thread again, but then I changed what I said.
Okay, cool, I'm glad you're not leaving.
Zolkabro
2013-02-10, 03:39 PM
I don't remember us ever bringing up Celia, but I could be wrong. We weren't going to have her in Dorukan or in the courtroom, but I suppose there is no reason she couldn't be with Haley during the Resistance, summoned by the medallion and helping guard over Roy's body.
Oh, I forgot about the courtroom. We should make that her first appearance, so she can be with Roy in the City, give him the medallion, and it establishes her character. Haley summoning her shouldn't be her first appearance, that would be confusing and jarring. But as we're not having a full trial, maybe is in the city for new years and they meet up? It's a massive tourist destination, after all. Or maybe she could be they're solicitor in the mini-tribunal. Not sure.
Hmm, you are probably right about the solo adventure thing. Just brainstorming, because with the party unsplit, having the whole group there is an option, now. One we should consider. But it would have less Haley development.
I still like it culminating in the groups arrest, though, since it segways nicely into the main plot. So it still feels very relevant.
Good point, we don't want it to feel detached. Actually that's perfect, because Roy and the others won't be around Haley and Elan when they get arrested, same as in the comic, and then they track them from Greysky to Bleedingham, and then it proceeds as in the comic. The only issue is that V gets arrested with Haley, but that's pretty minor. So yeah, great, I agree.
I just want to say that I am not not ever going on this thread ever again. When I said that I split the thread, I meant that I would take the ideas from this thread and apply them to a real, tangible work.
EDIT: I forgot a "not". It looked like I would never log on to this thread again, but then I changed what I said.
Okay, cool, I'm glad you're not leaving.
As am I, but, as SowZ said in your thread, please don't poach our ideas too much, and definitely, if we write a script don't just copy it across.
Oh, I forgot about the courtroom. We should make that her first appearance, so she can be with Roy in the City, give him the medallion, and it establishes her character. Haley summoning her shouldn't be her first appearance, that would be confusing and jarring. But as we're not having a full trial, maybe is in the city for new years and they meet up? It's a massive tourist destination, after all. Or maybe she could be they're solicitor in the mini-tribunal. Not sure.
Good point, we don't want it to feel detached. Actually that's perfect, because Roy and the others won't be around Haley and Elan when they get arrested, same as in the comic, and then they track them from Greysky to Bleedingham, and then it proceeds as in the comic. The only issue is that V gets arrested with Haley, but that's pretty minor. So yeah, great, I agree.
As am I, but, as SowZ said in your thread, please don't poach our ideas too much, and definitely, if we write a script don't just copy it across.
You have to be wary of coincidence, though... Maybe they are giving the tribunal and Roy says none of them understand AC law so can they contact their lawyer? Shojo would allow it and Roy tells the group his girlfriend is a lawyer. They summon Celia and there she is.
Zolkabro
2013-02-10, 04:08 PM
You have to be wary of coincidence, though... Maybe they are giving the tribunal and Roy says none of them understand AC law so can they contact their lawyer? Shojo would allow it and Roy tells the group his girlfriend is a lawyer. They summon Celia and there she is.
Perfect.
So, if all of this is now decided fully, I think the OP needs to be updated. We need to add Celia, change the crushing of the resistance to an ambush, include the MoJ, the Order teleporting to the Oracle for Plot Ploint X, and finally, start putting in details for the second movie.
Although of course very little of the second movie can be planned so far. In fact, for all we know, there is so much more material yet to come in the comic that even with our first movie covering almost 700 strips, we will still need to break our second into two, and have a trilogy. This not-knowing-ness makes the whole thing a lot harder.
Also, I think we've cleared out the "Current Debates" section, so, what else needs to be sorted out?
Perfect.
So, if all of this is now decided fully, I think the OP needs to be updated. We need to add Celia, change the crushing of the resistance to an ambush, include the MoJ, the Order teleporting to the Oracle for Plot Ploint X, and finally, start putting in details for the second movie.
Although of course very little of the second movie can be planned so far. In fact, for all we know, there is so much more material yet to come in the comic that even with our first movie covering almost 700 strips, we will still need to break our second into two, and have a trilogy. This not-knowing-ness makes the whole thing a lot harder.
Also, I think we've cleared out the "Current Debates" section, so, what else needs to be sorted out?
Yeah, sure, I'll update. But wait, what do we need to change about the crushing of the resistance?
Zolkabro
2013-02-11, 02:13 AM
Yeah, sure, I'll update. But wait, what do we need to change about the crushing of the resistance?
Some time ago we agreed that rather then Redcloak tracking them down, he should be waiting for them when they get back. It's a minor thing, but it still needs correcting.
Solse
2013-02-11, 07:42 AM
:redcloak:"By which I mean that they will be decorating with your interiors." I suggest that if the Resistance gets ambushed, that line will have to be in the movie. It was one of my favorites in the comic.
Zolkabro
2013-02-11, 01:33 PM
:redcloak:"By which I mean that they will be decorating with your interiors." I suggest that if the Resistance gets ambushed, that line will have to be in the movie. It was one of my favorites in the comic.
Ahem:
You should definitely include the "decorating with your interiors" line, and maybe, as he does so, have him explode with his hand a hanging corpse, leaving blood and gore all over the wall, dripping down onto the heroes. That would be really unexpected.
So, anyway, SowZ. What needs sorting out next?
Yeah, guys, that's a cool line. Anyways, I updated some stuff. But what about the decision to either,
A. Cut straight from the trial sequence to Miko's fall. Essentially, the spot where Miko was about to slay Belkar in the comic causes her to carry Belkar to Shojo, where she overhears him telling Haley and Roy the truth, and then she kills Shojo.
B. Do the Oracle thing and fit Miko's fall in some other way, probably more like the comic in how it is built up.
Personally, I am partial to A. It moves the quickest, though it removes the Oracle.
Zolkabro
2013-02-11, 02:35 PM
Yeah, guys, that's a cool line. Anyways, I updated some stuff. But what about the decision to either,
A. Cut straight from the trial sequence to Miko's fall. Essentially, the spot where Miko was about to slay Belkar in the comic causes her to carry Belkar to Shojo, where she overhears him telling Haley and Roy the truth, and then she kills Shojo.
B. Do the Oracle thing and fit Miko's fall in some other way, probably more like the comic in how it is built up.
Personally, I am partial to A. It moves the quickest, though it removes the Oracle.
I say either B, or Miko flips out day after the trial when Roy goes back there. But still preferable B.
Problem is, we need to move quickly, but we also need build-up. If we do it straight after the trial Shojo will be dead only five to ten minutes after we met him. The audience will have formed no attachement to him. No, we need some kind of plot point, one or two funny Shojo scenes, for the audience to grow to like him, then we brutally murder him. Much more effective. If we have the trial, Shojo explaining the truth to Haley and Roy, new year partying with Haley/Elan romance, another funny Shojo scene, the Oracle, funny scene where Shojo throws the wizards skeleton at Roy, and THEN Miko comes in and kicks ass. Also remember that Miko has to reveal at this point that Xykon is on his way, so at some point during this we will need Xykon at the watchtower. So there's a lot to get done here, but it's all essential IMO.
The Giant
2013-02-12, 02:52 AM
I just locked the other OOTS Animated Movie thread, and I thought it prudent to come in here and say:
If this is a hypothetical construct you're creating to amuse yourselves, fine. But please don't attempt to create an actual OOTS movie based on my comic. That would not be cool. OK? OK, cool.
Also, in your role as message board moderator, I'd prefer for this thread not to veer into discussion about this request or the fact that I locked the other thread. Thanks.
Zolkabro
2013-02-12, 01:22 PM
I just locked the other OOTS Animated Movie thread, and I thought it prudent to come in here and say:
If this is a hypothetical construct you're creating to amuse yourselves, fine. But please don't attempt to create an actual OOTS movie based on my comic. That would not be cool. OK? OK, cool.
Also, in your role as message board moderator, I'd prefer for this thread not to veer into discussion about this request or the fact that I locked the other thread. Thanks.
I'm sorry Jhunter, but I have to say I fully support that decision.
So, SowZ, you okay with Plot Point X so far?
I just locked the other OOTS Animated Movie thread, and I thought it prudent to come in here and say:
If this is a hypothetical construct you're creating to amuse yourselves, fine. But please don't attempt to create an actual OOTS movie based on my comic. That would not be cool. OK? OK, cool.
Also, in your role as message board moderator, I'd prefer for this thread not to veer into discussion about this request or the fact that I locked the other thread. Thanks.
Oh, yeah, we've been saying this is for fun the whole time. Hence the thread split. I suppose this ends a few of the arguments about wanting to bring this into the real world, which I'm fine with. So back to our regularly scheduled programming I suppose.
I say either B, or Miko flips out day after the trial when Roy goes back there. But still preferable B.
Problem is, we need to move quickly, but we also need build-up. If we do it straight after the trial Shojo will be dead only five to ten minutes after we met him. The audience will have formed no attachement to him. No, we need some kind of plot point, one or two funny Shojo scenes, for the audience to grow to like him, then we brutally murder him. Much more effective. If we have the trial, Shojo explaining the truth to Haley and Roy, new year partying with Haley/Elan romance, another funny Shojo scene, the Oracle, funny scene where Shojo throws the wizards skeleton at Roy, and THEN Miko comes in and kicks ass. Also remember that Miko has to reveal at this point that Xykon is on his way, so at some point during this we will need Xykon at the watchtower. So there's a lot to get done here, but it's all essential IMO.
Yeah, I'm sure we can figure something out. He could teleport them to the Oracle instead of Cliffport.
Zolkabro
2013-02-13, 04:07 PM
Yeah, I'm sure we can figure something out. He could teleport them to the Oracle instead of Cliffport.
Perfect.
Also, in the Big Battle, because O-Chul and Hinjo are merged, is he in the throne room or leading the battle, and who does whichever he isn't?
Perfect.
Also, in the Big Battle, because O-Chul and Hinjo are merged, is he in the throne room or leading the battle, and who does whichever he isn't?
In could see him leading the battle, and then when he sees that Xykon is flying into the throne room, O-chul rushes to the throne room. On his mount, there is no reason he couldn't make it in time.
Alright, do we have the basic plot down, for now at least? We can change it a bit as needed, of course. Should we get down to planning individual scenes? Such as the first dungeon?
Zolkabro
2013-02-16, 09:06 AM
Alright, do we have the basic plot down, for now at least? We can change it a bit as needed, of course. Should we get down to planning individual scenes? Such as the first dungeon?
Okay, great.
But the first dungeon will be difficult, maybe start with something a bit simpler. We don't have to do this in chronological order, after all.
So, maybe have a go at the Starmetal quest? Or the Oracle? Or when we first see the Resistance? Something small, like that. Which do you want to start with?
Okay, great.
But the first dungeon will be difficult, maybe start with something a bit simpler. We don't have to do this in chronological order, after all.
So, maybe have a go at the Starmetal quest? Or the Oracle? Or when we first see the Resistance? Something small, like that. Which do you want to start with?
We don't have to do it in order, but I prefer to do it roughly in order. It makes plant-payoff and just getting lost less of a hassle. The starmetal quest would be good enough to do.
A want to change a few things. 1. Roy doesn't have to keep the Order together. We can assume these are all friends who have no reason to stop traveling together. 2. Roy gets the quest honestly. It isn't a lie from anyone. 3. No bandit camp.
It will also seem weird if they just walk into the forest and stumble on the cave. Belkar could try tracking until they realize he can't track and he gets them lost, maybe, and there is some obstacle that they overcome pretty easily then stumble across the dragon cave?
Bling Cat
2013-02-16, 08:35 PM
This is a really fun hypothetical idea. I love the changes to the plot, they're really the only way to make it work as a movie.
I don't really mean to derail the current planning of the first scene, but I had an idea for how to fit The Oracle in without sacrificing any screen time in Azure City. Rather than have the current Oracle, why don't we merge the character with Sangwaan (The blind woman who appears to be Hinjo's magical advisor, I had to look up the name). We don't have her answering specific questions, but she could let a few things slip. We would have to tone down the omniscience, but we could certainly have her act all freaked out around V and imply Belkar's death in some way. I think that of the prophesies, those and maybe Durkon's and Elan's are the only ones worth keeping. Maybe the one about Girard's gate, but that may be straying too much into territory where she becomes too powerful. What do you guys think? It's not a perfect idea, but I think it allows us to retain the more crucial prophesies without losing screen time and focus by leaving the city.
Zolkabro
2013-02-17, 03:21 AM
This is a really fun hypothetical idea. I love the changes to the plot, they're really the only way to make it work as a movie.
I don't really mean to derail the current planning of the first scene, but I had an idea for how to fit The Oracle in without sacrificing any screen time in Azure City. Rather than have the current Oracle, why don't we merge the character with Sangwaan (The blind woman who appears to be Hinjo's magical advisor, I had to look up the name). We don't have her answering specific questions, but she could let a few things slip. We would have to tone down the omniscience, but we could certainly have her act all freaked out around V and imply Belkar's death in some way. I think that of the prophesies, those and maybe Durkon's and Elan's are the only ones worth keeping. Maybe the one about Girard's gate, but that may be straying too much into territory where she becomes too powerful. What do you guys think? It's not a perfect idea, but I think it allows us to retain the more crucial prophesies without losing screen time and focus by leaving the city.
Hm, in principle, genius idea, but then we need a different way to get Shojo's wizard killed.
Which actually is no bad thing.
Okay, so, I say we make Saangwan the Oracle, and now we get to think of a exciting way that the Order manages to accidentaly murder a wizard. This should be fun! :smallbiggrin:
I'm afraid, though, that I'm about to leave to visit my brother, and will be without internet until Tuesday, so I won't be around until then. Just giving you warning, don't expect any replies until then. Sorry.:smallfrown:
Solse
2013-02-17, 08:11 AM
For the first dungeon, show Haley introducing her adventure as a montage plays. Then show battles with Linear Guild and Xykon.
Also, will we make an actual script with all of the characters' lines in it after the plot planning is finished?
For the first dungeon, show Haley introducing her adventure as a montage plays. Then show battles with Linear Guild and Xykon.
Also, will we make an actual script with all of the characters' lines in it after the plot planning is finished?
Possibly. I don't think I want to introduce the LG in a montage, though. I feel they deserve more than that. But yeah, a montage type thing could work.
I like the idea of using the wise woman in place of the Oracle. It works fine. As for the Order killing the wizard, it doesn't even have to be a wizard. It could be a royal guardsman or a paladin if that fits better. It could be the wizard, too. Just doesn't have to be.
Bling Cat
2013-02-20, 04:05 AM
In regards to the order accidentally killing an azurite, doesn't that come off as a bit... morbid? I don't know, I'm just not sure how well that would work when translated to live action, especially if you took the scene straight from the strip and had Shojo throwing a skeleton at Roy. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, just that I'm skeptical that it could be pulled off without diminishing the audience's sympathies for the Order.
In regards to the montage, I agree that the Linear Guild shouldn't show up in it. We can only really introduce one villain effectively in a montage, and that villain has to be Xykon.
I like the idea of opening with a female voice, if only because (as far as I'm aware) it would set it apart from other fantasy movies.
Zolkabro
2013-02-20, 04:21 AM
Another Azurite won't work, because the whole reason we need that dead wizard is because the order have to wait for him to be ressurected before they can leave, so that he can teleport them out.
Also, if Sangwaan is an Oracle, why hasn't Shojo just used her for everything he needs? He wouldn't need Eugene or the Order. And why don't they just ask her exactly how to win the battle, or who will win, or Xykon's weakness, or ANYTHING?
Also, Bling Cat is right that killing an azurite will reduce the audience's faith in the Order, and there is no way we can decide to kill an azurite will be as funny as "WELCOME TO AZURE CITY! *hic*" which made me laugh so hard it hurt the first time I saw it.
So, because of these holes (and others), I have to say I'm still a fan of "Wizard teleports them directly to Oracle on remote island" plan. Because they're being teleported directly, it won't slow the action down too much, and this just works more smoothly. And we get the, ah, directional mishap, shall we say, along the way. :smallwink:
Bling Cat
2013-02-20, 04:40 AM
Another Azurite won't work, because the whole reason we need that dead wizard is because the order have to wait for him to be ressurected before they can leave, so that he can teleport them out.
Also, if Sangwaan is an Oracle, why hasn't Shojo just used her for everything he needs? He wouldn't need Eugene or the Order. And why don't they just ask her exactly how to win the battle, or who will win, or Xykon's weakness, or ANYTHING?
Also, Bling Cat is right that killing an azurite will reduce the audience's faith in the Order, and there is no way we can decide to kill an azurite will be as funny as "WELCOME TO AZURE CITY! *hic*" which made me laugh so hard it hurt the first time I saw it.
So, because of these holes (and others), I have to say I'm still a fan of "Wizard teleports them directly to Oracle on remote island" plan. Because they're being teleported directly, it won't slow the action down too much, and this just works more smoothly. And we get the, ah, directional mishap, shall we say, along the way. :smallwink:
You know, despite the fact that I proposed it, my faith in casting Saangwan as the oracle has been diminishing steadily after I proposed it. As such I am totally on board with reverting to normal kobold oracle.
In terms of the Oracle himself though, do we want to change up any of the prophecy's wording? Some things, like V's prophecy, work better when you have a long time to contemplate it, whereas if its going to be fulfilled within the same movie it's made, we might want to make it more ominous, maybe? Or possibly slightly clearer, so that its obvious to people when it gets fulfilled?
Zolkabro
2013-02-20, 04:57 AM
I've just reread the Oracle strip, and two ones need changing, the rest can stay the same:
Belkar can't ask if he gets to kill the Oracle - he never does. Maybe ask how he will get the Mark of Justice removed? Or maybe not, I'm not sure on this one.
Haley can't ask how she'll get her voice back - she never loses it. Instead, I say she asks how she will get her father back. While she could ask about Elan, I prefer this for two reasons: Firstly, asking about Elan makes her seem kind of shallow when her father's life is at stake, and secondly, she would get her answer very soon afterwards, leaving no suspense, while she only finds her father in the next film.
We'll need to come up with cryptic responses to each of these. Any ideas?
So, this would mean that all prophecies except Roy's one are mysteries only solved in the next movie. We could maybe allude to them near the end of movie one, to remind the audience of these unsolved mysteries, and add a bit to the cliffhanger.
Thoughts?
I've just reread the Oracle strip, and two ones need changing, the rest can stay the same:
Belkar can't ask if he gets to kill the Oracle - he never does. Maybe ask how he will get the Mark of Justice removed? Or maybe not, I'm not sure on this one.
Haley can't ask how she'll get her voice back - she never loses it. Instead, I say she asks how she will get her father back. While she could ask about Elan, I prefer this for two reasons: Firstly, asking about Elan makes her seem kind of shallow when her father's life is at stake, and secondly, she would get her answer very soon afterwards, leaving no suspense, while she only finds her father in the next film.
We'll need to come up with cryptic responses to each of these. Any ideas?
So, this would mean that all prophecies except Roy's one are mysteries only solved in the next movie. We could maybe allude to them near the end of movie one, to remind the audience of these unsolved mysteries, and add a bit to the cliffhanger.
Thoughts?
How important is it that everyone asks one question?The Oracle, whether it is Shojo's blind advisor or the Kobold, works fine living in Azure City. I suppose, though, that saying the Oracle is an advisor to the kingdom that has some special power which allows him/her to answer one question from each person she meets would be fine.
Hmm... Does the Oracle work better inside or outside AC? That is a tough one...
Zolkabro
2013-02-22, 09:13 AM
How important is it that everyone asks one question?The Oracle, whether it is Shojo's blind advisor or the Kobold, works fine living in Azure City. I suppose, though, that saying the Oracle is an advisor to the kingdom that has some special power which allows him/her to answer one question from each person she meets would be fine.
Hmm... Does the Oracle work better inside or outside AC? That is a tough one...
Outside, For many reasons:
Firstly, saying "oh, she can ONLY answer one question per person" results in people answering why, and the answer is "because... um... magic. No more difficult questions."
Also, an all-seeing oracle in the middle of a bustling city, and one with no even vaguely evil criminal underworld? Doesn't seem plausible.
But if The Oracle is on some far away island in the middle of an ocean, only accessible by teleport, then it adds mystery, and I think leaving the city would add to the story and suspense, not detract from it. And all this is in addition to the more obvious avoidance of that massive plothole.
Also, is one question per person important? Character development. And I think this is even more important in a movie than in the comic. So many big blockbuster movies, you come out in awe at the plot and special effects, and then realise that you can't think of a single distinctive thing about any of the characters. They're either really 2-Dimensional, or really stereotypical. We can avoid that easily, this is such a character driven story, and your adaptation outline frequently has "give him more spotlight," or "give her more spotlight" which is great. Giving everybody their own question gives them their own quest, and also really adds to the forshadowing before the next movie.
And then once more we arrive at the question of "Why Not?"
I can't think of any problems that everybody having a question presents, so why take it out?
Minitroll
2013-02-22, 11:56 AM
Well, tell me if this is too far out of place, but when the drunk wizard teleports them into the roc's nest, how about we change that? The wizard teleports them to this random Island where they meet the Oracle. That allows for the gang to arrive at Azure City screaming 'the bad guys are coming, the bad guys are coming!' It's a bit out of Order, but I think it could work well. Opinions?
The strip I suggest putting it in is http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html. Adds maybe 4 minutes of oracle, and all the prophesies can happen as normal! Happy universe!
Minitroll
2013-02-22, 11:59 AM
I also gotta switch topics for a moment to put in my two cents about the opening montage. It's important we include Xykon trying to convince Elan and Roy to touch the gate.
I should also notice I do screenplays, and I'm planning to get a masters in Screenwriting, so I'd be happy to write out the basic script. No camera angles though.
Zolkabro
2013-02-22, 11:59 AM
Well, tell me if this is too far out of place, but when the drunk wizard teleports them into the roc's nest, how about we change that? The wizard teleports them to this random Island where they meet the Oracle. That allows for the gang to arrive at Azure City screaming 'the bad guys are coming, the bad guys are coming!' It's a bit out of Order, but I think it could work well. Opinions?
The strip I suggest putting it in is http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html. Adds maybe 4 minutes of oracle, and all the prophesies can happen as normal! Happy universe!
Are you saying do this after Cliffport? Because we're cutting Cliffport. If we weren't, though, that would be perfect. Hmph.
I also gotta switch topics for a moment to put in my two cents about the opening montage. It's important we include Xykon trying to convince Elan and Roy to touch the gate.
Definitely, yeah.
Minitroll
2013-02-22, 12:03 PM
Oh, we're cutting Cliffport? Sorry, didn't see. My fault there. I hate to be the burden, but can we make a list of things CUT instead of things included? Sorry...
Minitroll
2013-02-22, 12:04 PM
Regarding the opening montage now, what we could do is a 30 sec montage of the Order, have the prep scenes for the Linear Guild battle then montage through it and keep that momentum up to near Xykon where we show the entire thing.
Zolkabro
2013-02-22, 12:09 PM
I should also notice I do screenplays, and I'm planning to get a masters in Screenwriting, so I'd be happy to write out the basic script. No camera angles though.
Woo, welcome aboard! We're happy to have you as part of the team!
The way things are looking we're all going to be screenwriting different parts, and editing eachothers work, but it's great that we now have a professional (well, soon-to-be professional) on board with us.
Oh, we're cutting Cliffport? Sorry, didn't see. My fault there. I hate to be the burden, but can we make a list of things CUT instead of things included? Sorry...
Yup, good idea. Sorry about that, when you know something, it can be easy to forget others don't.
SowZ, can that be added to the OP? [EDIT: Oh hey, that rhymes! :smalltongue:]
Regarding the opening montage now, what we could do is a 30 sec montage of the Order, have the prep scenes for the Linear Guild battle then montage through it and keep that momentum up to near Xykon where we show the entire thing.
Sounds good, though maybe a bit longer.
We're using the words "montage" and "opening scene" pretty interchangeably, because they are: Unlike many movies that open with an action scene, ours lasts a few weeks, but it needs to flow smoothly, and have a fast pace, like a normal one. So it will switch between montage, normal action scene, and half-way between, pretty much constantly.
EDIT: Also, could you please stop double posting. It can be quite irratating. If you have anything to add, just edit it in (like I'm doing here). I understand if you didn't realise, but it's much easier on the eyes and generally better form to not have multiple posts from the same person in a row.
Also, if you do more than two or three at a time, you can get temp-banned for spamming, even if you meant well. So be wary of that.
Minitroll
2013-02-22, 12:20 PM
Also, could you please stop double posting. It can be quite irratating.
Sorry, this is the first post I've participated in, I'm still getting the ropes. Won't happen again. And regarding the length of the montage, you'd be amazed how much 30 seconds can be. What seems like nothing in reality is huge in film to fill. For example, in Lion King, the 5 second growing montage not only passes time, but tells you about Timon, Pumba, Simba, the life they live, and the simplicity of it. It seems like a time lapse, but those five seconds just pass on information like no tomorrow. And yes, the opening montage would probably need a guiding monologue, but it could be pulled off 30-45 seconds, and the more time we have for things such as the first showdown of Xykon and Roy, the better.
Zolkabro
2013-02-22, 12:38 PM
Sorry, this is the first post I'm posting, still getting the ropes. Won't happen again. And regarding the length of the montage, you'd be amazed how much 30 seconds can be. What seems like nothing in reality is huge in film to fill. For example, in Lion King, the 5 second growing montage not only passes time, but tells you about Timon, Pumba, Simba, the life they live, and the simplicity of it. It seems like a time lapse, but those five seconds just pass on information like no tomorrow. And yes, the opening montage would probably need a guiding monologue, but it could be pulled off 30-45 seconds, and the more time we have for things such as the first showdown of Xykon and Roy, the better.
Thing is, I'd much rather we didn't have a guiding monologue. Whenever I see those in movies I never like it, it's cheapening and breaks the immersion, and yet it is used in loads of movies. Of course, it may be it's just me being weird, and everyone else loves in, in which case, sure, go ahead. But I'd rather spend a minute to a minute and a half without a monologue than 30 - 45 seconds with one.
Still, yes, a shorter time is good.
Also, didn't realise you were so new, welcome to the Playground! Lots of welcomes going on in the last few posts...
Minitroll
2013-02-22, 12:41 PM
Good point... the cheese factor in movies is nasty, especially at the beginning. That's why I think we need to set up the Linear Guild- we may zoom through the fight, but we can introduce all the characters there, as well as their opposites, allowing for more to be learned in shorter time about each person, as you know about their shadow's as well.
Thanks for the welcome!
Hmm, yeah, I'm cool with including the Oracle.
Hey Minitroll!
I could include a list of things cut, yeah.
As far as the Linear Guild goes, we were actually planning on saving them for the second film.
I totally agree about the time thing. A one minute short film is totally capable of telling a whole story.
Minitroll
2013-02-22, 03:16 PM
Okay, I can survive with the Linear Guild being held off, but they have to be included BEFORE Tarquin's introduction, otherwise the whole encounter becomes more confusing. And thanks for making the cut list. Sorry to be overbearing, but I think I'd be a good record and help for other people wanting to join the discussion.
Okay, I can survive with the Linear Guild being held off, but they have to be included BEFORE Tarquin's introduction, otherwise the whole encounter becomes more confusing. And thanks for making the cut list. Sorry to be overbearing, but I think I'd be a good record and help for other people wanting to join the discussion.
No problem, man. Hopefully that helps clear things up.
It's cool we are both studying screenwriting, though I'm not likely to go for a masters. You don't happen to have final draft or something, do you? Otherwise, we could all use Celtx that way we can easily combine them into a super doc as we work on different scenes.
Minitroll
2013-02-23, 01:20 PM
Still in High School, so I just use formatting in Word for script writing, but I know the formats, and plan to get them after I figure out witch one's peferable. Sorry.
Still in High School, so I just use formatting in Word for script writing, but I know the formats, and plan to get them after I figure out witch one's peferable. Sorry.
Ahh. I'd download Celtx if I were you. It's free, and makes things go much faster.
Minitroll
2013-02-24, 12:22 AM
I'll download both the programs and see which I prefer.
Anyway, back to the conversation- no Linear Guild until the 2nd film and including the Oracle as most likely as someone in Azure City. What we could do is add a sewers. That way, they don't have to completely leave Azure City, but they do have to have a little adventure.
EDIT: I'm using Celtx now. Thanks for the suggestion. Now to move my other writings down to there.
Alrighty, so we can make the Oracle thing go pretty much the way it is in the comic, with a wizard teleporting them there and then the wizard getting killed teleporting them back. (We could have him drunk, as per the comic. Stick pretty true, here.) What about the Oracle himself? I liked the idea of the blind woman being the Oracle, but if we are ditching that idea should we just make him the Kobold we know and love?
Also, we should talk about ways to make both the Scaly oracle and the blind woman oracle work. Find a plot for both and discuss what is superior with two options.
Zolkabro
2013-03-06, 01:12 PM
Alrighty, so we can make the Oracle thing go pretty much the way it is in the comic, with a wizard teleporting them there and then the wizard getting killed teleporting them back. (We could have him drunk, as per the comic. Stick pretty true, here.) What about the Oracle himself? I liked the idea of the blind woman being the Oracle, but if we are ditching that idea should we just make him the Kobold we know and love? The Kobold is brilliant, he's so funny, and prettyre cognisable, too. We shouldn't change him.
Also, we should talk about ways to make both the Scaly oracle and the blind woman oracle work. Find a plot for both and discuss what is superior with two options.
I don't really feel that the two enroach on eachother. The blind woman is a diviner, and can see things far away, and magically knows stuff. But she can't see the future. She can be used exactly as she is in the comic: Azure City's FBI.
Firestar27
2013-03-08, 02:15 AM
I feel like Mark Hamill is too talented a voice actor to not really get mentioned. I'd like to see him voice Xykon. After Fire Lord Ozai and the Joker, it shouldn't be too difficult for him.
Minitroll
2013-03-08, 02:56 AM
I personally think the kobold is the most amusing point in the whole oracle section. However, that leaves the changing of Belkar's prophecy, as we cut Greysky and therefore the Mark of Justice resolution. This leaves a few choices.
1. Cut the second Oracle scene that Belkar kills him, forcing Belkar to reword his prophesy to something else.
2. Include the second Oracle and then find another situation to make Belkar's Mark go Away.
Either way, we need to get rid of the mark, or cut it out completely, but if it's not there we need to find an excuse for Hinjo to let him walk around willingly.
I personally think the kobold is the most amusing point in the whole oracle section. However, that leaves the changing of Belkar's prophecy, as we cut Greysky and therefore the Mark of Justice resolution. This leaves a few choices.
1. Cut the second Oracle scene that Belkar kills him, forcing Belkar to reword his prophesy to something else.
2. Include the second Oracle and then find another situation to make Belkar's Mark go Away.
Either way, we need to get rid of the mark, or cut it out completely, but if it's not there we need to find an excuse for Hinjo to let him walk around willingly.
The plan is to make the Mark get resolved during the rebellion arc. Haley is leading the rebellion, and Belkar does something to kill some human slave they freed or something. The Mark goes off, Belkar didn't think the tunnels counted as a city or something, Haley throws him in jail. Belkar will be horribly sick in jail.
I figure when Haley returns to the base with the Phylactery and Redcloak is there, Belkar will have his Shojo vision. Maybe the cell is damaged, maybe the hobgoblins with Redcloak find Belkar and get ready to kill him, and Belkar goes into action hero mode. He breaks out and wreaks havoc, distracting Redcloak and allowing Haley and the Belkster to escape. So the Mark wears off either via a weeks long casting time or Belkar's force of will or Shojo telling him the secret safe word during his vision quest.
Minitroll
2013-03-08, 03:50 AM
I like that plan. And that makes the Resistance's final fight more dramatic and gives them the hope of victory for a few moments, but Redcloak still wins.
Quackenbush
2013-03-08, 04:19 PM
Also, if we want a wider target audience, hear me out. OOTS the musical.
I like it.
"I am dead dead and gone my boy, and now you must kill the liiiiiich!"
"Father I don't care about your oaths!"
"Roy, why must you be suuuuch aaaaaa b***h?"
Zolkabro
2013-03-09, 11:20 AM
I feel like Mark Hamill is too talented a voice actor to not really get mentioned. I'd like to see him voice Xykon. After Fire Lord Ozai and the Joker, it shouldn't be too difficult for him.
Well, I'm not sure he's capable of the comedy gold, even if he's great at casual evil. But Xykon won't be the only voice-acted character, so we should keep him in mind.
The plan is to make the Mark get resolved during the rebellion arc. Haley is leading the rebellion, and Belkar does something to kill some human slave they freed or something. The Mark goes off, Belkar didn't think the tunnels counted as a city or something, Haley throws him in jail. Belkar will be horribly sick in jail.
I figure when Haley returns to the base with the Phylactery and Redcloak is there, Belkar will have his Shojo vision. Maybe the cell is damaged, maybe the hobgoblins with Redcloak find Belkar and get ready to kill him, and Belkar goes into action hero mode. He breaks out and wreaks havoc, distracting Redcloak and allowing Haley and the Belkster to escape. So the Mark wears off either via a weeks long casting time or Belkar's force of will or Shojo telling him the secret safe word during his vision quest.
Or rather than Redcloak being about to kill Belkar, he's about to kill Haley, before Belkar bursts in and saves her. But either way, it will add a whole lot more tension if we're flipping through that as well as Xykon fighting V, and I really like this part.
I like it.
"I am dead dead and gone my boy, and now you must kill the liiiiiich!"
"Father I don't care about your oaths!"
"Roy, why must you be suuuuch aaaaaa b***h?"
While I think this is going to stay non-musical, it might be really fun to write some OOTS musical songs. I think I might give that a go, I do a lot of music writing, but all instrumental, so I may need help with lyrics...
That'll just be a fun side-project, though, I think.
Well, I'm not sure he's capable of the comedy gold, even if he's great at casual evil. But Xykon won't be the only voice-acted character, so we should keep him in mind.
Or rather than Redcloak being about to kill Belkar, he's about to kill Haley, before Belkar bursts in and saves her. But either way, it will add a whole lot more tension if we're flipping through that as well as Xykon fighting V, and I really like this part.
While I think this is going to stay non-musical, it might be really fun to write some OOTS musical songs. I think I might give that a go, I do a lot of music writing, but all instrumental, so I may need help with lyrics...
That'll just be a fun side-project, though, I think.
That was actually pretty much my vision, was that Redcloak was about to kill Haley. I just meant some Hobgoblins were pounding on the cell, about to kill Belkar.
Zolkabro
2013-03-09, 01:35 PM
That was actually pretty much my vision, was that Redcloak was about to kill Haley. I just meant some Hobgoblins were pounding on the cell, about to kill Belkar.
Oh, right. Great!
One of my biggest regrets is being unable to fully explore Redcloak. SoD is possibly my favorite of the books.
Anyways, want to start planning from the escape of the first gate up until the crayon story?
Zolkabro
2013-03-10, 05:19 PM
One of my biggest regrets is being unable to fully explore Redcloak. SoD is possibly my favorite of the books.
Anyways, want to start planning from the escape of the first gate up until the crayon story?
Unfortunately, I've never read SoD or OtOoPCs. I really want to, hope I'll get to some time.
Anyway, yeah, that seems like a great place to start. Let's do it in little chunks.
So, I say the montage has just ended with a massive dramatic explosion. Rather than going on to the plot summary thing Elan does, we end the montage with the last panel of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0119.html) strip (although maybe with a bit more view of the castle exploding, not just the boom). Big, shocking. Then, I'm thinking that we want a few seconds of darkness and silence, and then (even though it's a big clichéd) we have the camera from Haley's eyes as she opens them. The light is all bright, and she looks around blearily. Then voicover of her voice comes in. General introductrory stuff, I'm Haley, this is the Order of the Stick, etc etc.
They go into town, I say we cut Elan wanting to be a Wizard, but if there's time I think we should have them split the loot then each character doing their thing in the town. You know, Belkar at the Barbarian's Guild, Durkon getting armour, Elan campaigning for Banjo, V trying to teach economics, and Roy trying to buy cheese a sword. But we shouldn't show Haley's letter. Far to early for a bomb that big. Her moment in this bit can be tricking the others into giving her double-loot. The letter... when they find the Starmetal loot? It needs to be before the Oracle, if that is what she asks him about, but other than that, not sure.
Anyway, each of these little bits is a great way to introduce the character better, because each one really shows them as "them". Durkon is being messed about, Elan is being hilarious and quirky, Belkar is being needlessly violent, Haley is swindling her team-mates, etc. None of this will take long at all. We finish with Roy at the blacksmith's, and then the starmetal quest begins.
Thoughts so far?
Unfortunately, I've never read SoD or OtOoPCs. I really want to, hope I'll get to some time.
Anyway, yeah, that seems like a great place to start. Let's do it in little chunks.
So, I say the montage has just ended with a massive dramatic explosion. Rather than going on to the plot summary thing Elan does, we end the montage with the last panel of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0119.html) strip (although maybe with a bit more view of the castle exploding, not just the boom). Big, shocking. Then, I'm thinking that we want a few seconds of darkness and silence, and then (even though it's a big clichéd) we have the camera from Haley's eyes as she opens them. The light is all bright, and she looks around blearily. Then voicover of her voice comes in. General introductrory stuff, I'm Haley, this is the Order of the Stick, etc etc.
They go into town, I say we cut Elan wanting to be a Wizard, but if there's time I think we should have them split the loot then each character doing their thing in the town. You know, Belkar at the Barbarian's Guild, Durkon getting armour, Elan campaigning for Banjo, V trying to teach economics, and Roy trying to buy cheese a sword. But we shouldn't show Haley's letter. Far to early for a bomb that big. Her moment in this bit can be tricking the others into giving her double-loot. The letter... when they find the Starmetal loot? It needs to be before the Oracle, if that is what she asks him about, but other than that, not sure.
Anyway, each of these little bits is a great way to introduce the character better, because each one really shows them as "them". Durkon is being messed about, Elan is being hilarious and quirky, Belkar is being needlessly violent, Haley is swindling her team-mates, etc. None of this will take long at all. We finish with Roy at the blacksmith's, and then the starmetal quest begins.
Thoughts so far?
Hmm, I wonder if we could introduce the OOTS as a group? I like the loot splitting scene, but a detour for each character? Even if it is a minute long each, (and it may be longer. One page in a script is one minute on screen,)
If the opening montage is 90 seconds and the loot division is also 90 and each side plot is 60 seconds? Then if the whole starmetal thing, including the dragon, is done in five minutes, (including whatever complication we throw at them,) we are well over where we should be.
We should be slamming into the next plot point by now, but we are barely introducing Miko. The audience won't even know what the actual conflict of the story is, (the snarl,) until close to half an hour. I'd like the audience to be locked in a good ten minutes earlier, myself. We could maybe be more efficient with the starmetal quest?
I like the idea of showing each of the order in their element, though. But I would prefer if we could do it in a couple scenes instead of a bunch of solo mini-adventures. If we could split the party into two groups of three, at the most three groups of two, it could work. Time is definitely working against, us though.
I think Roy's deal is a little too Monty Python. We COULD have Roy and V shopping together and the town only has one big store. V is arguing economic theory and they don't have any weapons for Roy.
Banjo might seem a little slapstick to introduce, especially this early. I like tonal shifts in movies, but it might be a biiit much. Not saying it would be impossible to pull off, but a tough sell.
Razanir
2013-03-11, 12:01 AM
The Linear Guild should not be cut, IMO. Two reasons:
1) Without Nale, we have no reason to include Tarquin. Without Tarquin, there's no Empire of Blood or Tyrania. Without Tyrania, there's no one to hold Ian Starshine captive. Without him being held captive, Haley has no character motivation. And you can't have a non-motivated main character!
2) :thog: thog have cookies
Also, with the possible readdition of the LG, OotS would warrant AT LEAST a trilogy. The Empire of Blood subplot alone could probably fill a shorter movie...
The Linear Guild should not be cut, IMO. Two reasons:
1) Without Nale, we have no reason to include Tarquin. Without Tarquin, there's no Empire of Blood or Tyrania. Without Tyrania, there's no one to hold Ian Starshine captive. Without him being held captive, Haley has no character motivation. And you can't have a non-motivated main character!
2) :thog: thog have cookies
There is a Nale and a Tarquin. They are being saved for the second movie, where they can be the primary antagonists for Act I of the second film.
Razanir
2013-03-11, 12:04 AM
There is a Nale and a Tarquin. They are being saved for the second movie, where they can be the primary antagonists for Act I of the second film.
My OP was edited with a third comment. Feel free to respond, if you so choose
Zolkabro
2013-03-11, 01:08 AM
My OP was edited with a third comment. Feel free to respond, if you so choose
It could make it's own movie, yeah, but a sparse and boring one. You want a movie to move fast.
Despite this, I think, SowZ, you're expecting it to be too fast. Five minutes is absolutely find for the whole starmetal quest, if not on the small side. This is a first movie. There is always build-up, especially in first movies where the characters just don't know what's happening.
It could make it's own movie, yeah, but a sparse and boring one. You want a movie to move fast.
Despite this, I think, SowZ, you're expecting it to be too fast. Five minutes is absolutely find for the whole starmetal quest, if not on the small side. This is a first movie. There is always build-up, especially in first movies where the characters just don't know what's happening.
Well, I wouldn't be trying to move so fast if it wasn't for the detail that, until we get to the courtroom scene, the audience doesn't know what the plot it. Basically all major screenwriting theories say you need to establish the goal early. Usually within 15 minutes, or even 10. Past 20? Fagheddabout it.
The only other option we have is to not open it up in the montage. Rather, we open it up IN the court room and have the Order explaining their actions. We won't listen to the dialogue, of course, but show it. This way we can introduce the Snarl, or at least drop hints at the snarls/gates nature, at about the ten minute mark. It would give us a lot more freedom as far as pacing goes, and I wouldn't sweat as much about how the audience might ask, "Where's the plot?" it adds mystery, which, honestly, is a better grabber than a montage.
We need something that says, "This is why you should pay attention to us!" which the montage lacks the punch to do.
Something to consider. It may seem a little contrived, but not moreso than a montage, really. Not to say we CAN'T do a montage as part of the trial dialogue.
Minitroll
2013-03-11, 07:51 AM
Well, in order to keep tension, we could have the scenes with Miko riding to them (cut the weasel character) and show that something bigger is happening, but they don't know they're a part of a much larger plot.
Hey guys. So I realize I've let this idle for a while but just letting anyone following it know that I'll be able to pick it back up again in about a month or so. School and such. Anyway, y'all can continue posting if you'd like andI'll try and at least read and respond to it. Just a heads up.
Minitroll
2013-04-11, 11:43 AM
I was reading No Cure for the Paladin Blues and I realized new and unusual ways we could do the first dungeon- A PUPPET SHOW!
That is all.
Zolkabro
2013-04-11, 11:49 AM
I was reading No Cure for the Paladin Blues and I realized new and unusual ways we could do the first dungeon- A PUPPET SHOW!
That is all.
OOTS would actually work pretty well Punch and Judy style.
Bedinsis
2013-04-14, 11:53 AM
Hey guys, some points I'd like to add:
* What if it is established that the Azurites in exile are being torn apart due to not having a leader to set things straight? That way when the Hinjo/O-chul hybrid is rescued at the end the audience is assured that that subplot is resolved. There is also the possibility to have some comparison between AC and the Order, since both fell apart when they lost their leader.
* Incidentally, how is the Darth V / Xykon encounter intended to play out? In the comic V saves O-Chul after hearing what they'll do to him, and O-Chul saves them by snatching the phylactery, and then letting the Monster in the darkness deus ex machina them away. As it looks right now, the phylactery will not even be present at the scene (being carried away by Haley and the Resistance).
* This is more a reiteration of what I've said earlier, but: why not cut out the Starmetal quest? What that quest ensures is that aside from the montage the very first parts of the movie is the Order handling a quest that
isn't at all connected to the main plot(even though events in it comes back to bite the Order in the butt later). I think it would be a better idea to show the dungeon of Dorukan, so that the audience knows straight of the bat that it is Xykon that is the main conflict. The black dragon cave could, as I have said, be integrated into the dungeon of Dorukon, or if that is impossible, be handled in a montage after the small-town-solo-moments scenes (something Zolkabro convinced me would be a good component to have in the movie). Or even cutting to Xykon and Redcloak after it is established that they'll go on the the star metal quest, and then (after some Xykon and Redcloak scenes) cutting to the climax of the black dragon quest with Vaarsuvius blasting the dragon.
* I'd say make Miko one dimensional. While I hate to cut down on the character whose story I think is one of the most interesting, the plot as outlined doesn't have the time to let Miko take a lot of time in the script, in particular if we shall both flesh out the Order AND the over arching plot AND have some breathing room between the moments. Plus, if the outline is anything to go on Miko ceases to be relevant after half the movie, so I think it would be a waste of time to have moments to establish her. The audience would be overwhelmed.
* Let the dungeons and dragons-references stay in. Either that, or we'll have to entirely rewrite what Elan does in the Order(I doubt an audience would accept "he goes into dungeons and sing at the monsters" as an explanation).
Zolkabro
2013-04-14, 02:20 PM
Hey guys,
Hey! Nice to have some more voices, the thread has slowed down a bit, hopefully this will pick it up! I hope you stick around, you haven't posted in a while on this.
Overall, I like your points a lot. I'll address each of them individually:
* What if it is established that the Azurites in exile are being torn apart due to not having a leader to set things straight? That way when the Hinjo/O-chul hybrid is rescued at the end the audience is assured that that subplot is resolved. There is also the possibility to have some comparison between AC and the Order, since both fell apart when they lost their leader.
Pretty sure that we've already stated that this is exactly what happens - We may state briefly that the nobles are all trying to take control, but we're cutting the main Therkla and Kubota sub-plot.
* Incidentally, how is the Darth V / Xykon encounter intended to play out? In the comic V saves O-Chul after hearing what they'll do to him, and O-Chul saves them by snatching the phylactery, and then letting the Monster in the darkness deus ex machina them away. As it looks right now, the phylactery will not even be present at the scene (being carried away by Haley and the Resistance).
Details for this entirely unplanned, as far as I remember.
Hm, some ideas I just brainstormed:
V battles dragon. Cut to Haley
Haley leaves on mission to get Phylactery. Not sure on details, but at the climax, cut to V:
Familicide happens, V is rejected by her family. Maybe increase the impact on this - something happens to make V feel really guilty and torn up. Maybe in a flail of "Raaar I am powerful magic now" one of her children is accidentaly killed? Something like that.
V is horrified, but the voices of the other souls urge her to leave, and off she goes to "fix everything"
Cut to Haley - Mission succeeds, make it into the tunnels. Cut to Belkar.
In Resistance base. Hints that all is not well, but nothing shown on screen - as in, loud noises, maybe screams, shaking, Belkar is lying wounded, still in the midst of MoJ cure-disease. Shojo pep-talk, but maybe rewritten to be shorter and a bit more action like - this is the climax, after all. From the begining to just before "Tell me what you are". Cut to V.
V appears at the fleet. She does super-teleport, then super-scry, and sees Haley leaving on a mission to get the Phylactery. Cut to Haley.
They make it to the base, but are greeted by Redcloak and his "Interior decorators". Belkar is unconcious, maybe monsters are playing some kind of sick game with his limp body - throwing it up in the air, etc. Redcloak says classy scare-line. Cut to V.
Zoom out of the scrying image. V resolves to save Haley, and teleports into Xykon's tower.
Cut between battle between V and Xykon, battle between Resistance and Redcloak, cutting between. V's splices are expelled, and Resistance are beaten, only Haley is alive.
Cut now between Xykon's amazing, amazing What is Power monologue (I love that so much); Redcloak giving some kind of similar sick speech to Haley; and Shojo asking Belkar who he is. Culminate in Xykon strangling V, Redcloak doing some kind of torture spell, Haley screaming, and Belkar declaring that he is a sexy shoeless god of war.
Cut between: a) Belkar's curse is lifted, insta-heal! He regains consciousness, and jump attacks Redcloak from above. Redcloak does not see until Belkar's dagger gets him in the eye. And b) O-Chul breaks free, and smite-punches Xykon's head off.
Now of course Xykon almost kills V and O-Chul, but MitD teleporks them away. But how do we get Haley and Belkar away? Why would MitD teleport them? My best solution, but I'm not too happy with it:
As she's about to die, V is babbling about how she has to help Haley, Roy, and even Belkar, she has to make amends, she has to help her. MitD sees this, and is all "Yes! Save your friends! Escape!"
V, O-Chul, Haley, and Belkar are all teleported back to the island, where Durkon, Elan, Hinjo, Lien and Daigo are exploring. Shock, awe, hurrah! Haley pulls Roy's body out of her Bag of Holding. Durkon raises him, and the film ends as the comic arc ends - plans made, the Order sailing off into the sunset on another adventure.
Thoughts?
* This is more a reiteration of what I've said earlier, but: why not cut out the Starmetal quest? What that quest ensures is that aside from the montage the very first parts of the movie is the Order handling a quest that
isn't at all connected to the main plot(even though events in it comes back to bite the Order in the butt later). I think it would be a better idea to show the dungeon of Dorukan, so that the audience knows straight of the bat that it is Xykon that is the main conflict. The black dragon cave could, as I have said, be integrated into the dungeon of Dorukon, or if that is impossible, be handled in a montage after the small-town-solo-moments scenes (something Zolkabro convinced me would be a good component to have in the movie). Or even cutting to Xykon and Redcloak after it is established that they'll go on the the star metal quest, and then (after some Xykon and Redcloak scenes) cutting to the climax of the black dragon quest with Vaarsuvius blasting the dragon.
Well, I always intended the Starmetal quest to be a good way to quickly introduce the characters, but you've convinced me otherwise. So, we can take the Dungeon of Dorukan more slowly then, let this be the introduction instead. At some point in the Dungeon, there can be a Great Black Dragon, and they steal the starmetal and a ****load of treasure. We then have the solo adventures in the town, which really showcase the personalities of every character, then they leave town.
Then, we have Redcloak and the Xykon's Watchamacallit, then by the time we cut back to the order, we can have it start to Dramatic Rain, and then Miko arrests them.
And speaking of Miko...
* I'd say make Miko one dimensional. While I hate to cut down on the character whose story I think is one of the most interesting, the plot as outlined doesn't have the time to let Miko take a lot of time in the script, in particular if we shall both flesh out the Order AND the over arching plot AND have some breathing room between the moments. Plus, if the outline is anything to go on Miko ceases to be relevant after half the movie, so I think it would be a waste of time to have moments to establish her. The audience would be overwhelmed.
Well, I'm not really sure what changes would be made. Miko has very little solo time, her character is developed with others, and almost every scene where it is furthers the plot in a fairly important way. We need her to arrest the Order, try and kill Belkar, kill Shojo, be imprisoned. All of these don't just develop her, they further the entire plot. I'm not sure what exactly there is to cut.
Could you elaborate?
* Let the dungeons and dragons-references stay in. Either that, or we'll have to entirely rewrite what Elan does in the Order(I doubt an audience would accept "he goes into dungeons and sing at the monsters" as an explanation).
Absolutely agree.
Well, thanks a lot for joining in again! Wooooo, more blood! :smallbiggrin:
Bedinsis
2013-04-15, 05:30 PM
Hm, some ideas I just brainstormed:
V battles dragon. Cut to Haley
Haley leaves on mission to get Phylactery. Not sure on details, but at the climax, cut to V:
Familicide happens, V is rejected by her family. Maybe increase the impact on this - something happens to make V feel really guilty and torn up. Maybe in a flail of "Raaar I am powerful magic now" one of her children is accidentaly killed? Something like that.
V is horrified, but the voices of the other souls urge her to leave, and off she goes to "fix everything"
Cut to Haley - Mission succeeds, make it into the tunnels. Cut to Belkar.
In Resistance base. Hints that all is not well, but nothing shown on screen - as in, loud noises, maybe screams, shaking, Belkar is lying wounded, still in the midst of MoJ cure-disease. Shojo pep-talk, but maybe rewritten to be shorter and a bit more action like - this is the climax, after all. From the begining to just before "Tell me what you are". Cut to V.
V appears at the fleet. She does super-teleport, then super-scry, and sees Haley leaving on a mission to get the Phylactery. Cut to Haley.
They make it to the base, but are greeted by Redcloak and his "Interior decorators". Belkar is unconcious, maybe monsters are playing some kind of sick game with his limp body - throwing it up in the air, etc. Redcloak says classy scare-line. Cut to V.
Zoom out of the scrying image. V resolves to save Haley, and teleports into Xykon's tower.
Cut between battle between V and Xykon, battle between Resistance and Redcloak, cutting between. V's splices are expelled, and Resistance are beaten, only Haley is alive.
Cut now between Xykon's amazing, amazing What is Power monologue (I love that so much); Redcloak giving some kind of similar sick speech to Haley; and Shojo asking Belkar who he is. Culminate in Xykon strangling V, Redcloak doing some kind of torture spell, Haley screaming, and Belkar declaring that he is a sexy shoeless god of war.
Cut between: a) Belkar's curse is lifted, insta-heal! He regains consciousness, and jump attacks Redcloak from above. Redcloak does not see until Belkar's dagger gets him in the eye. And b) O-Chul breaks free, and smite-punches Xykon's head off.
Now of course Xykon almost kills V and O-Chul, but MitD teleporks them away. But how do we get Haley and Belkar away? Why would MitD teleport them? My best solution, but I'm not too happy with it:
As she's about to die, V is babbling about how she has to help Haley, Roy, and even Belkar, she has to make amends, she has to help her. MitD sees this, and is all "Yes! Save your friends! Escape!"
V, O-Chul, Haley, and Belkar are all teleported back to the island, where Durkon, Elan, Hinjo, Lien and Daigo are exploring. Shock, awe, hurrah! Haley pulls Roy's body out of her Bag of Holding. Durkon raises him, and the film ends as the comic arc ends - plans made, the Order sailing off into the sunset on another adventure.
Thoughts?
Sounds good overall (I also love the What is Power monologue). Apart from some points I disagree with:
1. I don't think it would be a good idea to have Vaarsuvius kill her offspring and be able to immediately shrug it off to the degree that she wouldn't be willing to stop and think about what her actions meant. The description you posted would showcase a Vaarsuvius gone mad, whereas the comic showed a Vaarsuvius that really hadn't, as highlighted by the fact that when the situation called for she was willing to stop and discuss the situation. Not that changing the situation to Vaarsuvius so that is mad would necessarily be a bad thing, I just think that killing her offspring would make the audience lose much sympathy for her if she is not shown grieving her lost child afterwards, and that would be quite a downer ending.
I also would like to add a point that might work: after super-teleport (in front of Elan and Durkon since they will be present at the fleet) having Elan say something akin to "Hey couldn't you save Haley?" and Vaarsuvius answering "Better yet my dim-witted friend, I am going to make sure none of us will be at any risk again: I am going to kill Xykon." Then Elan and Durkon protesting happens as in the comic, with the addition that Vaarsuivius is annoyed at their lack of faith in her powers. (Please ignore the quality of the dialogue. I am not good at these things)
2. Belkar is insta-healed? How would that work?
3. I also think it's a bit odd a reason to have monster in the darkness realize that he must teleport out Mr. Stiffly's friends. As I am writing this I realize that in order for Haley to get the Phylacery she must enter were Redcloak is; what if that place is Xykon's throne room? And she is discovered? And monster in the darkness sees her, mentally accepts her as being a friend of Mr. Stiffly, and at that moment -BOOM!- Darth Vaarsuvius appears, forcing Xykon to shift focus at this new threat, leaving the phylactery retrieving business to Redcloak.
Well, I'm not really sure what changes would be made. Miko has very little solo time, her character is developed with others, and almost every scene where it is furthers the plot in a fairly important way. We need her to arrest the Order, try and kill Belkar, kill Shojo, be imprisoned. All of these don't just develop her, they further the entire plot. I'm not sure what exactly there is to cut.
Could you elaborate?
What I meant is that Miko is a character that is frequently brought up for discussion in this very forum. With good reason, since she's a character whose actions leave much open for interpretation. Some would maybe like to keep that intact on the big screen (since an element of a story which are worth discussing afterwards is a good quality of a story), but Miko isn't the focus of the story, and I don't think there would be room to explore that aspect without leaving the audience confused. Therefore let her be the simple minded holier-than-thou person a lot of people seem to think of her as. It is easier to keep track of.
I have some more points to add:
*Is Tsukiko really necessary? I was annoyed by her character when she was alive (Xykon is evil you dummy! Why must you deceive yourself about him?) and at the end of the day, she didn't really do much.
*Is it really a good idea to keep the Belkar vision quest as part of the story? I realize many people of this thread liked that storyline, but we are essentially giving a comic relief character character development, time that could be better spent elsewhere.
*Is monster in the darkness necessary? He is a fun comic relief character, but aside from the Teleport wish is there anything he contributes to the story? I realize this would require an entire rewrite of the climax, but I always saw his teleport spell as a massive deus ex machina, and I at least had the benefit of seeing him being immensely powerful in the comic; no point about that has appeared in the bullet point script.
After writing all of these opinions, I'd like to add an idea that might be terrible, and runs contrary to several of my above listed opinions, but:
What if it turns out that Miko actually survived the throne room blast? And in a shown raid against Gobbotopia they manage to locate her. She says something along the lines of "changing her ways", and reveals that Soon revealed what the phylactery was. Short thereafter Belkar kills her in some way (fulfilling the prophesy), setting off the mark of justice, having Haley kick him out due to him killing someone that could actually help ("Sh-yeah right, as if Miko would actually help.") and giving a logical next step for Haley to do (steal the phylactery).
Just thought I'd share it.
edit: I accidentally referred to Hinjo/O-chul as Mr. Scruffy, I meant to write Mr. Stiffly. That has now been edited.
Will try and respond to all of this in detail soon. I'm thinking we can plot out the turns exactly pretty soon.
(For those of you unfamiliar with the term 'turn,' in screenwriting a movie is broken up into 10-20 minute mini-plots. Each with their own introduction, rising action, and conclusions. If you watch a movie, you will notice that every ten to twenty minutes, the movie is about some theme, event, or goal that is pretty well explored or resolved before moving onto the next turn. A movie usually follows what is called the 8 turn structure, which actually has 9 nine turns which is kind of confusing but meh.)
Anyways, college will be wrapping up fairly soon for me so I can really come back to this. Sorry I've been absent lately, been writing scripts for school. I don't think I could swindle this as an assignment since I wouldn't have the rights to it and couldn't do anything with it. :P
Minitroll
2013-04-17, 08:59 AM
*Is Tsukiko really necessary? I was annoyed by her character when she was alive (Xykon is evil you dummy! Why must you deceive yourself about him?) and at the end of the day, she didn't really do much.
I personally am a fan of Tsukiko. She's a nice fake out that serves as a wonderful foil for Redcloak. Although not interesting herself, the effects on Redcloak unveil a lot about his character, and made Redcloak my favorite by far.
*Is it really a good idea to keep the Belkar vision quest as part of the story? I realize many people of this thread liked that storyline, but we are essentially giving a comic relief character character development, time that could be better spent elsewhere.
Eventually, Belkar has to grow up. Sure, he's comedy gold, but he can still be comedy gold after the deep contemplation. And it'll help to bridge the scene, so it's not just fighting... losing... I AM A SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR!!! He'd have no explanation for returning, he just starts killing. I feel we HAVE to keep the bridge.
*Is monster in the darkness necessary? He is a fun comic relief character, but aside from the Teleport wish is there anything he contributes to the story? I realize this would require an entire rewrite of the climax, but I always saw his teleport spell as a massive deus ex machina, and I at least had the benefit of seeing him being immensely powerful in the comic; no point about that has appeared in the bullet point script.
Sure, in this section, the Monster does little but serve as a deus ex machina. But we're making a movie that suggests another, and I feel like the Monster has a very big role to play in everything, though he hasn't quite done it yet. We have to keep him in- I have a feeling he's going to be the victory factor against Xykon.
After writing all of these opinions, I'd like to add an idea that might be terrible, and runs contrary to several of my above listed opinions, but:
What if it turns out that Miko actually survived the throne room blast? And in a shown raid against Gobbotopia they manage to locate her. She says something along the lines of "changing her ways", and reveals that Soon revealed what the phylactery was. Short thereafter Belkar kills her in some way (fulfilling the prophesy), setting off the mark of justice, having Haley kick him out due to him killing someone that could actually help ("Sh-yeah right, as if Miko would actually help.") and giving a logical next step for Haley to do (steal the phylactery).
Well, I can safely say, I was not expecting that. However, I personally believe it removes the power of Miko's death. One of my favorite conversations is the speech that Soon and Miko share as Miko slowly dies. I feel like it not only makes you feel bad for Miko for the first real time in the whole thing, but it's a wonderful dialogue either way. I think bringing her back would tinge the beauty of her death.
Zolkabro
2013-04-17, 10:29 AM
Sounds good overall (I also love the What is Power monologue). Apart from some points I disagree with:
1. I don't think it would be a good idea to have Vaarsuvius kill her offspring and be able to immediately shrug it off to the degree that she wouldn't be willing to stop and think about what her actions meant. The description you posted would showcase a Vaarsuvius gone mad, whereas the comic showed a Vaarsuvius that really hadn't, as highlighted by the fact that when the situation called for she was willing to stop and discuss the situation. Not that changing the situation to Vaarsuvius so that is mad would necessarily be a bad thing, I just think that killing her offspring would make the audience lose much sympathy for her if she is not shown grieving her lost child afterwards, and that would be quite a downer ending.
She doesn't shrug it off: She insists she must make amends, and that is why she goes off to "fix everything". But I agree, not enough reaction can be put. So let's have a reaction! Let's have V be completely heartbroken, let's have Kyrie reject her, let's really give her a hard time. The character development that this gives is really important, IMO.
I also would like to add a point that might work: after super-teleport (in front of Elan and Durkon since they will be present at the fleet) having Elan say something akin to "Hey couldn't you save Haley?" and Vaarsuvius answering "Better yet my dim-witted friend, I am going to make sure none of us will be at any risk again: I am going to kill Xykon." Then Elan and Durkon protesting happens as in the comic, with the addition that Vaarsuivius is annoyed at their lack of faith in her powers. (Please ignore the quality of the dialogue. I am not good at these things)
Brilliant, yeah. I was a little worried about bridging that gap, but that works fine.
2. Belkar is insta-healed? How would that work?
Well, he's currently unconcious, possibly mortally wounded, when he has his vision. But we need him to be rejuvenated so he can stab Redcloak's eye out and rescue Haley. In the comic, the cleric of Loki does this, but, not having a handy cleric around, Shojo's ghost lifts the curse from inside the vision. Lifting the curse gives him a boost, as it were, healing the damage.
3. I also think it's a bit odd a reason to have monster in the darkness realize that he must teleport out Mr. Stiffly's friends. As I am writing this I realize that in order for Haley to get the Phylacery she must enter were Redcloak is; what if that place is Xykon's throne room? And she is discovered? And monster in the darkness sees her, mentally accepts her as being a friend of Mr. Stiffly, and at that moment -BOOM!- Darth Vaarsuvius appears, forcing Xykon to shift focus at this new threat, leaving the phylactery retrieving business to Redcloak.
I agree, that part doesn't work at all the way it currently is. But I'm not sure that this way works either, as they need to think the mission has been successful right up until the last second. I did consider having V and Haley both at the tower - Haley goes there to get the phylactery, V teleports there, and rather than fast paced cutting, have the climax all in one place. But I think it is much more powerful to have Haley arrive back at the base victorious, only to find that all is lost after all. Also, if everyone was on the tower, how would we do the Belkar bit?
Neither of our ways works, but we need a way to do this... Let's keep thinking about it, but let's focus on other things and hopefully something will come to us.
What I meant is that Miko is a character that is frequently brought up for discussion in this very forum. With good reason, since she's a character whose actions leave much open for interpretation. Some would maybe like to keep that intact on the big screen (since an element of a story which are worth discussing afterwards is a good quality of a story), but Miko isn't the focus of the story, and I don't think there would be room to explore that aspect without leaving the audience confused. Therefore let her be the simple minded holier-than-thou person a lot of people seem to think of her as. It is easier to keep track of.
I have some more points to add:
*Is Tsukiko really necessary? I was annoyed by her character when she was alive (Xykon is evil you dummy! Why must you deceive yourself about him?) and at the end of the day, she didn't really do much.
*Is it really a good idea to keep the Belkar vision quest as part of the story? I realize many people of this thread liked that storyline, but we are essentially giving a comic relief character character development, time that could be better spent elsewhere.
*Is monster in the darkness necessary? He is a fun comic relief character, but aside from the Teleport wish is there anything he contributes to the story? I realize this would require an entire rewrite of the climax, but I always saw his teleport spell as a massive deus ex machina, and I at least had the benefit of seeing him being immensely powerful in the comic; no point about that has appeared in the bullet point script.
After writing all of these opinions, I'd like to add an idea that might be terrible, and runs contrary to several of my above listed opinions, but:
What if it turns out that Miko actually survived the throne room blast? And in a shown raid against Gobbotopia they manage to locate her. She says something along the lines of "changing her ways", and reveals that Soon revealed what the phylactery was. Short thereafter Belkar kills her in some way (fulfilling the prophesy), setting off the mark of justice, having Haley kick him out due to him killing someone that could actually help ("Sh-yeah right, as if Miko would actually help.") and giving a logical next step for Haley to do (steal the phylactery).
Just thought I'd share it.
edit: I accidentally referred to Hinjo/O-chul as Mr. Scruffy, I meant to write Mr. Stiffly. That has now been edited.
I was going to respond to all of this, but Minitroll has said exactly what I was going to. I've got nothing to add, really, I agree with him completely.
Minitroll
2013-04-18, 03:12 AM
In the comic, the cleric of Loki does this, but, not having a handy cleric around, Shojo's ghost lifts the curse from inside the vision. Lifting the curse gives him a boost, as it were, healing the damage.
Well, what we could do is a random cleric that's running from goblins (a member of the resistence. He bars himself in a room and then turns and finds Belkar. He remembers what Haley said and heals him. We can let him die though, he's not important, just a little deus ex machina in form of Resistence clerics.
Zolkabro
2013-04-18, 11:50 AM
Well, what we could do is a random cleric that's running from goblins (a member of the resistence. He bars himself in a room and then turns and finds Belkar. He remembers what Haley said and heals him. We can let him die though, he's not important, just a little deus ex machina in form of Resistence clerics.
But Belkar isn't in another room. He's lying in the main room bleeding to death with everyone else, in front of everybody. I don't think it's much of a problem that he get's healed when the curse is lifted, it makes sense. The main issue is how we teleport everyone out.
Bedinsis
2013-04-29, 09:59 AM
Some notes and ideas I got while the forums was off line:
*Monster in the darkness must stay in. If we are going to paint Hinjo-chul as the kind of guy that people would rally behind as their leader, some interaction were he is willing to try to see the good in the monster in the darkness, such that he could even almost turn him to the good side would be good.
*To let Belkar be insta-healed would imply that Shojo actually was present in some form. While that removes some ambiguity, I think it's for the better since that means we get more characterisation of Shojo.
There is a problem I see with the ending. The movie ends with the Order believing that Xykon will go directly to the next gate, and since the resistance is crushed we have nobody to tell them otherwise. I also find the Xykon vs. Vaarsuvius battle lacking the impact of the comic counterpart. This is because that climax is so well structured; at first Xykon is basically playing with Vaarsuvius; then O-chul snatches the phylactery a second time, then Xykon arrives at the rift after having been briefly scared for real, then he experience real panic when the phylactery almost hits the rift, then he is genuinely pissed off when arriving back at the tower. All of this is a gradual increase of wrath on Xykon's part. At the same time, the reason the "What is power?" monologue works so well is because we afterwards get to see Vaarsuvius apply the knowledge by using her weaker abilities invisibility, familiar and explosive runes to seriously threaten Xykon's existence.
The climax as written for the movie basically removes the power of the "What is power?" monologue since Vaarsuvius no longer use her weaker abilities to really threaten Xykon. And Xykon intending to kill off both Vaarsuivius and O-chul is no longer based on a gradually growing anger, but is due to a moment of annoyance of losing his head. Killing off O-chul at that time would basically be saying that he is willing to ignore that O-chul is their only source of how the next gate is guarded just because he is annoyed.
...I know re-read Zolkabro's climax suggestion, and realized that Vaarsuvius never helps Hinjo-chul escape. Was that part missing, or will the "What is power monologue" be delivered with an invisible Vaarsuvius trying yet failing to escape or with a visible Vaarsuvius which Xykon simple talks down?
I don't really have a suggestion to tie everything together, but I'd like to share an idea that might not work in its current form but could be adapted to fit in the climax.
* Haley realizes in her battle with Redcloak that she has no way to be able to escape with the phylactery. Rather than letting it get in the enemy's hand she makes one last ditch attempt to destroy it: She ties it to an arrow and shoots it to the rift. Redcloak screams in panic (in some way), to warn Xykon, interrupting his battle with Vaarsuvius and Hinjo-chul. Xykon immediately tries to fly away to stop the phylactery from actually hitting the rift, but in some way Vaarsuvius manages to hinder his ability to fly/delay his departure with her lower level abilities (don't know which way). Xykon eventually gets out to see the arrow flying towards the rift, fear rising in his eyeholes... and the arrow misses. What happens afterwards occurs as in the comic, but with the monster in the darkness teleporting Haley & Belkar as well.
My semester just ended, so I can return to this, yay! I'll see what I missed in a sec.
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