The Poetry Discussion Thread: Getting Verse & Verse....

[The Succubus]

The Poetry Discussion Thread

Howdy folks!

This idea popped into my head after an evening discussing the finer points of language with a couple of other Playgrounders. I've always had a fondness for puns, plays on words and other peculiar spins of language and it seems to be a trait I share with other folks. If you're looking for fun examples of that sort of thing, then poetry is the ideal place to go to.


How this thread will work

Essentially, it will have two phases. At the beginning of the first week, someone pops up a poem and we spend a week talking about it; its language, rhyme, content and generally critique it to tiny little pieces.

Phase two happens next where we cast around for a theme, style or idea for the next poem and then a brief vote on who gets to pick it. Then at the beginning of the following week, they pop up a poem and the process repeats.

The nutshell version: Week 1 we look at a poem, Week 2 we look for a theme for the next one.

By virtue of being a shameless dictator-y sort, I bring you our first poem:




Jabberwocky
by Lewis Carroll

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"

He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought—
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

And as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! and through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

"And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!"
He chortled in his joy.

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.



I apologise deeply to our readers for whom English isn't a first language but if it makes you feel any better, Jabberwocky doesn't make much more sense in its native language either. :smallwink:

For those that don't know its origin, Jabberwocky comes from Lewis Carroll's Alice Through The Looking Glass. The book she finds the poem in is printed in mirror writing and even after she realises this and reads the poem, she is still thoroughly confused by it.

The first thing folks realise when reading the poem is that there's an awful lot of "made-up" words in here - words that have no definition in English, despite the very best efforts of the Oxford English Dictionary team. That said, a lot of the words that, at the time of printing were unintelligible, now actually have proper meanings - "chortle", for example, is now recognised as meaning "to laugh or giggle" and "burbling" is "to speak in a bubbling or excited manner".

The keen eyed D&Ders out there may also recognise something else very familiar in this poem....

So, gentle readers, what do you make of this poem? Is it a bold exploration on the concepts of meaning? Did Lewis Carroll simply slam his face into his typewriter and call it a day? What does a Jabberwocky or a Bandersnatch look like? Is it possible to outgrabe a mome rath?

Share your thoughts! :smallbiggrin:

[leakingpen]

somewhat on topic, I'll leave this here.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/obituary-elizabeth-brewsters-journey-of-self-awareness-led-to-prolific-poetry-career/article8226920/


On topic, Carroll was a wonder at satire disguised as absurdity. Much of Wonderland was a story written during a boat ride, using people that appeared on the shores as characters, so much of the novel is in truth two people making fun of people they know in a hidden way. I feel Jabberwocky is more the same, that there are in jokes all through it. In addition, it really follows a very standard monster hunting hero theme, with a lot of words that are JUST BARELY almost like the descriptive words and nouns you'd expect. Personally, i think the whole thing was mostly a joke intended to be an example of the kind of nonsense that would absolutely infuriate someone carroll and liddell knew.

[MonkeyBusiness]

One thing I always enjoy about Jabberwocky is how the words are easily understood. As Leaking Pen observed, so many of the words Carrol invented are now in common use because they *work*. In fact, Carrol coined the term for the sort of made-up words he uses here: "portmanteau" words. Pretty cool.

One effect of the made-up words, for me, is that the poem sounds like something a child might recite, having mis-heard or misunderstood the words. That's an effective technique, because the main character is a child, and the books show how screwed-up and surreal the grown-up world looks from a kid's perspective. (Flamingo croquet? Vindictive temper-tantrum-throwing monarchs? All in a day's work in the Kid World....)

Another author who cunningly uses kid speak in poems is A A Milne.

-Monkey

[The Succubus]

One thing I always enjoy about Jabberwocky is how the words are easily understood. As Leaking Pen observed, so many of the words Carrol invented are now in common use because they *work*. In fact, Carrol coined the term for the sort of made-up words he uses here: "portmanteau" words. Pretty cool.

One effect of the made-up words, for me, is that the poem sounds like something a child might recite, having mis-heard or misunderstood the words. That's an effective technique, because the main character is a child, and the books show how screwed-up and surreal the grown-up world looks from a kid's perspective. (Flamingo croquet? Vindictive temper-tantrum-throwing monarchs? All in a day's work in the Kid World....)

Another author who cunningly uses kid speak in poems is A A Milne.

-Monkey

Quite a lot of the words have a delightfully onomatopoeic quality to them as well:


"The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!"

"Whiffling" and "burbled" help the brain to conjure up mental images of a rather bizarre looking creature (for me it, it has a long snake like body with bird like wings, combined with oversized teeth and talons). It might just be the zippy rhythm of the poem at that point but the word "whiffling" makes me think of the Jabberwocky, slowly flapping through the air in a sort of lazy and highly casual manner.

The pacing of this poem is rather odd in places. The first verse has a rather standard ballad structure, with each line having roughly the same number of syllables, along with a classic 2-4 rhyming structure. But then in verses 3 and 6 we have the lines:


"Long time the manxome foe he sought-"

and


"One, two! One, two! and through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!"
Both of these lines derail the pacing of the poem, making it rather tricky to read aloud. On the other hand though, verse 6 has a wonderful feeling of excitement and it almost feels like you yourself are there fighting the Jabberwocky. ^_^

[Lionheart]

I think that the way the rhyme works in stanza 5 (not 6), was a conscious choice to bring the reader into the heart of the action. The internal rhyme in the first and third lines really revs up the pacing, turning it from a slightly lazy hunting of quarry to a fast paced battle.

As to the portmanteau words, they have always been a favourite of mine, especially when you can understand them due to the phonetic identifiers they contain, A Clockwork Orange is a wonderful example of creating an entire slang vernacular using abbreviations and portmanteaus. Here we have words as mentioned like 'whiffling' 'chortled' 'burbling', all of which are semi-obvious in their meaning, I think 'out-grabe' is more of a contraction. I always imagined it as grabbing out, literally 'out-grabbed'

It's funny that people assume that the Jabberwock is the scary monster that the boy's father presents it as. This untrained boy has little trouble dispatching it, and the only hint that deserves the fate it receives are its "eyes of flame", hardly a conclusive signifier of evil.

I would agree with the child speak conclusion, this could easily be read as a poem recited by a child unable to comprehend or remember the complex vocabulary within, instead replacing the difficult words with nonsense.

[leakingpen]

i always saw outgrabe as outraged, plus something.

[Tannhaeuser]

“Jabberwocky” is in ballad meter (though rhyming ABAB, where a normal ballad would rhyme only on the second and fourth lines), and Carroll employs archaisms (“And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?”) to give the poem a mediæval-ish feeling (which are also reflected in Tenniel’s illustration of the son), largely, if I recall properly, because the poem originated as a parody of “Anglo-Saxon” poetry (which it does not resemble in the least) which was undergoing a popular revival in the history-conscious 19th century. This was a not uncommon target of Carroll’s; remember the Anglo-Saxon history lesson described as “the driest thing I know” in Wonderland and the White King’s two messengers Hatta and Heigha and their “Anglo-Saxon attitudes” (notice that Tenniel puts them in mediæval tunics) in Looking-glass.

For much the same reason, the words of the poem are not all “portmanteau” words in the strict sense of being formed out of two other words: “raths,” for instance, are not, say, “rough paths” but “a sort of green pig,” instead of a true portmanteau like “grigs.” The forms of the words are meant to sound like real but unfamiliar early English words such as “thole” or “glebe.”

Carroll does provide some explanations for the words in “Jabberwocky” at other points in his writings. Thus in Through the Looking-glass:

“’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.”

“That’s enough to begin with,” Humpty Dumpty interrupted, “there are plenty of hard words there. ‘Brillig’ means four o’clock in the afternoon—the time when you begin broiling things for dinner.”
“That”ll do very well,” said Alice, “and ‘slithy’?”
“Well, ‘slithy’ means ‘lithe and slimy.’ ‘Lithe’ is the same as ‘active.’ You see it’s like a portmanteau—there are two meanings packed up into one word.”
“I see it now,” Alice remarked thoughtfully, “and what are ‘toves’?”
“Well, ‘toves’ are something like badgers—they’re something like lizards—and they’re something like corkscrews.”
“They must be very curious looking creatures.”
“They are that,” said Humpty Dumpty, “also they make their nests under sun-dials—also they live on cheese.”
“And, what’s to ‘gyre’ and to ‘gimble’?”
“To ‘gyre’ is to go round and round like a gyroscope. To ‘gimble’ is to make holes like a gimlet.”
“And ‘the wabe’ is the grass-plot round a sun-dial, I suppose?” said Alice, surprised at her own ingenuity.
“Of course it is. It’s called ‘wabe,’ you know, because it goes a long way before it, and a long way behind it—”
“And a long way beyond it on each side,” Alice added.
“Exactly so. Well, then, ‘mimsy’ is ‘flimsy and miserable’ (there’s another portmanteau for you). And a ‘borogove’ is a thin shabby-looking bird with its feathers sticking out all round—something like a live mop.”
“And then ‘mome raths’?” said Alice. “I’m afraid I’m giving you a great deal of trouble.”
“Well, a ‘rath’ is a sort of green pig: but ‘mome’ I’m not certain about. I think it’s short for ‘from home’—meaning that they’d lost their way, you know.”
“And what does ‘outgrabe’ mean?”
“Well, ‘outgribing’ is something between bellowing and whistling, with a kind of sneeze in the middle: however, you’ll hear it done, maybe—down in the wood yonder—and when you’ve once heard it you’ll be quite content....”

In a letter written in 1877 Carroll explains “uffish thought” and “burble”:

I am afraid I can’t explain “vorpal blade” for you—nor yet “tulgey wood,” but I did make an explanation once for “uffish thought”! It seemed to suggest a state of mind when the voice is gruffish, the manner roughish, and the temper huffish. Then again, as to “burble” if you take the three verbs “bleat, murmur, and warble,” then select the bits I have underlined, it certainly makes “burble” though I am afraid I can’t distinctly remember having made it in that way.

In the preface to The Hunting of the Snark, Carroll defines “frumious”:

Take the two words “fuming” and “furious.” Make up your mind that you will say both words, but leave it unsettled which you will say first. Now open your mouth and speak. If your thoughts incline ever so little towards “fuming,” you will say “fuming-furious”; if they turn, by even a hair’s-breadth, towards “furious,” you will say “furious-fuming”; but if you have the rarest of gifts, a perfectly balanced mind, you will say “frumious.”

[Zjoot]

Ooh, interesting thread off to a great start. Jabberwocky is one of my favorites, and I think it's because the way Carroll uses non-sense is great proof that something doesn't have to make sense to be great poetry or produce an emotional response. The poem is very tonal and creates textures immediately.


Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

All of the "content words" in these lines are completely made up, so we basically don't get any context clues, but the lines still evoke (at least for me) a dark, swampy, and very very ominous tone. As a surrealist poet, this is a really cool thing to see. (The same is accomplished in surreal poetry by strange juxtapositions and nonsensical imagery)

Also of interest: the jabberwocky engine (http://collection.eliterature.org/2/works/hennessy_pataphysical/jabber/jabber/index.html)

[Nix Nihila]

Neat thread. As a poetry enthusiast, I will have to keep an eye on it.

I have to admit that I am not the greatest fan of Jabberwocky, or nonsense poetry in general. However, I do appreciate the way that the poem preserves a clear narrative structure, despite making little semantic sense (which, if I recall correctly, Alice remarks upon herself after reading the poem). I find the combination of unintelligible words with the regular, traditional prosody rather disconcerting, but I imagine that's the intention here, especially when you consider the context of the poem.

[The Succubus]

Neat thread. As a poetry enthusiast, I will have to keep an eye on it.

I have to admit that I am not the greatest fan of Jabberwocky, or nonsense poetry in general. However, I do appreciate the way that the poem preserves a clear narrative structure, despite making little semantic sense (which, if I recall correctly, Alice remarks upon herself after reading the poem). I find the combination of unintelligible words with the regular, traditional prosody rather disconcerting, but I imagine that's the intention here, especially when you consider the context of the poem.

I think that was foremost in Lewis Carroll's mind when he wrote the poem. According to the ever accurate Wikipedia article, he did try to find a printer of the time to print Jabberwocky in "mirror writing" i.e. back-to-front, but was turned down due to the expense involved. In the story itself, the book Alice finds Jabberwocky written in is printed in mirror writing as well. Maybe it was just supposed to be a neat little meta detail or it might have been an extension on the idea of looking for meanings in things - a strong theme throughout the rest of the book. Something like:

* Find completely unintelligible book
* Using a mirror reveals the words
* Words are mostly unintelligible
* Continue to dig deeper for understanding

...which is quite a delightful idea when you think about it.

I am curious though - what do you make of the repetition of the first verse to close out the poem though?

Also, a fun little exercise for us - perhaps we can finish the bits Lewis Carroll left off and come up with meanings for "vorpal" and "tulgey"! I'll post my own thoughts up in a little bit. :smallbiggrin:

[Tannhaeuser]

According to the ever accurate Wikipedia article, he did try to find a printer of the time to print Jabberwocky in "mirror writing" i.e. back-to-front, but was turned down due to the expense involved.

To be exact, he wanted to print the entire poem in mirror writing, and was told by his regular publisher that it would be much more expensive. He settled on having the first stanza mirrored.


Also, a fun little exercise for us - perhaps we can finish the bits Lewis Carroll left off and come up with meanings for "vorpal" and "tulgey"!

Dungeons & Dragons, of course, has its own special definition for a "vorpal sword," a specially sharp one with bonuses to beheadings. "Tulgey" I myself always took (perhaps not entirely logically) as a portmanteau of "tangled" and "ugly."

[The Succubus]

Yeah, that definitely works for "tulgey". Vorpal though...It suggests to me "Voracious", "Sharp" "Lethal" as a possible portmanteau but the two syllable nature of the word "vor-pal" (at least as I'd pronounce it) leans toward a two word portmanteau instead.

[Lionheart]

Wow Tannhaeuser, you really know your Carroll!

There's quite a lot going on there that I'd never really thought about before. It's interesting how the context of a poem, the time it's written in etc. can add so many layers of meaning.

I'm really going to have to read more...

[Tannhaeuser]

Wow, Tannhaeuser, you really know your Carroll!

There’s quite a lot going on there that I’d never really thought about before. It’s interesting how the context of a poem, the time it’s written in, etc., can add so many layers of meaning.

I’m really going to have to read more.

Thanks, Lionheart! You have to remember, though, I am probably considerably older than most Sticksters, and have had a lot more time to pick up utterly useless knowledge.

I think the main thing to remember about Carroll is that he really was at heart a child in rebellion against the adult world. He was constantly mocking the sort of learning that Victorian adults forced on children — the constant recitation of saccharine poems, the inculcation of “useful knowledge,” the everlasting moral lectures and laying-down of rules, rules, rules — because they bored him, too.

[goetzkluge]

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8220/8256470263_d5ef700627_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bonnetmaker/8256470263/)
The Baker and The Bard (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bonnetmaker/8256470263/) by Bonnetmaker (http://www.flickr.com/people/bonnetmaker/), on Flickr

I run into John Martin's painting "The Bard" (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bonnetmaker/8208936559/in/set-72157632201902205/) when comparing Henry Holiday's illustrations to "The Hunting of the Snark" to works of other artists. Martin's painting explains some of the things which puzzled me in Holiday's illustration to the chapter "The Vanishing". But as Holiday sometimes uses more than one source for the pictorial quotes in his illustrations, I do not know, how much and how many of my previous assumptions I will have to correct.

Holiday's reference to Martin then led me to Thomas gray. In mydailyartdisplay.wordpress.com/the-bard-by-john-martin, "Jonathan" connects the painting to the poem The Bard written by by Thomas Gray in 1755. Inspired by a Welsh tradition that said that Edward I had put to death any bards he found, to extinguish Welsh culture; the poem depicts the escape of a single bard:
...
On a rock, whose haughty brow
Frowns o'er cold Conway's foaming flood,
Robed in the sable garb of woe
With haggard eyes the Poet stood;
...
A Voice, as of the Cherub-Choir,
Gales from blooming Eden bear;
And distant warblings lessen on my ear,
That lost in long futurity expire.
Fond impious Man, think'st thou, yon sanguine cloud,
Rais'd by thy breath, has quench'd the Orb of day?
To-morrow he repairs the golden flood,
And warms the nations with redoubled ray.
"Enough for me: With joy I see
The different doom our Fates assign
Be thine Despair, and scept'red Care,
To triumph, and to die, are mine."
He spoke, and headlong from the mountain's height
Deep in the roaring tide he plung'd to endless night.
...

Full text:
o www.thomasgray.org/cgi-bin/display.cgi?text=bapo (http://www.thomasgray.org/cgi-bin/display.cgi?text=bapo)
o spenserians.cath.vt.edu/TextRecord.php?action=GET&tex... (http://spenserians.cath.vt.edu/TextRecord.php?action=GET&textsid=34497)
o www.english.upenn.edu/~mgamer/Etexts/gray.bard.html (http://www.english.upenn.edu/~mgamer/Etexts/gray.bard.html)
o www.google.com/search?q="A+Voice,+as+of+the+Cherub-Choir" (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22A+Voice,+as+of+the+Cherub-Choir%22)

The poem and the painting may have been an inspiration to Lewis Carroll and Henry Holiday in The Hunting of the Snark. This is about The Vanishing of The Baker:
537 (http://www.snrk.de/snarkhunt/#537) "There is Thingumbob shouting!" the Bellman said,
538 "He is shouting like mad, only hark!
539 He is waving his hands, he is wagging his head,
540 He has certainly found a Snark!"

541 They gazed in delight, while the Butcher exclaimed
542 "He was always a desperate wag!"
543 They beheld him--their Baker--their hero unnamed--
544 On the top of a neighbouring crag.

545 Erect and sublime, for one moment of time.
546 In the next, that wild figure they saw
547 (As if stung by a spasm) plunge into a chasm,
548 While they waited and listened in awe.

I think that there are allusions to "Cherubic Songs by night from neighbouring Hills" in Milton's Paradise Lost not only in Gray's ode, but also in Carroll's poem.

[The Succubus]

Okay, well we're coming up to the end of the week and it's time to look for a different poem to discuss. Does anyone have any preferences/suggestions for themes or types? :smallsmile:

[SaintRidley]

Since the Anglo-Saxons got brough up earlier, I could pull a few Anglo-Saxon riddles into the mix.

[leakingpen]

american romantic poetry.

[Zjoot]

I actually strongly dislike the idea of the theme. I would rather we choose someone to bring the next poem and trust that they will make good judgments and bring something that will be valuable to the conversation. If we start to get too much of the same, or stuff everyone considers to be poor quality, then I could see a need for a pre-decided theme.

I'm also wondering if we should shorten the one week thing a little, since the discussion died down for this one a bit, but I guess I'll need to see a few more weeks before I'll know if I think that's a good idea.

That being said, I suggest micropoetry, or something procedural (think Oulipo) or some slam (I'd probably bring some Derrick Brown) or something alt lit (though this one's certainly not for everyone. But if you want an idea of what I'm talking about, try this poem (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqvXqkscQ2w))

EDIT: Oh, or maybe flarf, because I'm interested in flarf, but I haven't explored much flarf, and it's exceedingly fun to end phrases with the word flarf. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT again: And I could really get behind romanticism if we get someone like Walt Whitman

[Tannhaeuser]

Snip.

I just wanted to register my appreciation for the awesomitude of this post.

[The Succubus]

Okay, I'm opening up this one to the floor. So we're looking for some sort of American romanticism poetry, if the popular vote is anything to go by. Leakingpen, assuming you're not busy drawing pictures of cute vampires, perhaps you could find something apt, as you were the first to suggest the winning theme this week? :smallsmile:

[leakingpen]

succubus, when I draw, the vampires are not cute. Or look like vampires. I write the words that the artist turns into pretty pictures!

a bit of a long one, but

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/song-of-the-open-road-2/

[Tannhaeuser]

I haven’t much to say about Whitman, with whom (except for his admiration, even worship, of the individual, especially the individual human)* I am in sympathy on almost no point. One may note the underlying contempt for tradition, as well, of course, as in the rejection of the traditional poetic structures of meter, rhyme, etc.

* …and in despite of the full-fledged admiration of him by my beloved G.K. Chesterton…


Further edited to avoid discussing real-world events and cultures.

[leakingpen]

I really dont see how we can discuss a political poet like Whitman WITHOUT discussing the real world events and cultures described and living around him.

[Tannhaeuser]

I really don’t see how we can discuss a political poet like Whitman WITHOUT discussing the real world events and cultures described and living around him.

See? I told you I didn’t like Whitman. All the man does is cause problems. :smallwink:

[WhiteRider]

It must be my mood, but I am having difficulty reading the Whitman poem without heard Whitesnake's "Here I Go Again" in my head!!

I've been in an e.e. cummings mood recently. Wondering if this piece might have influenced him?

"I carry them, men and women--I carry them with me wherever I go;"

[Zjoot]

(hey this is only slightly relevant, but any of you who haven't signed up for Iron Poet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274330) yet should consider doing so)