(Another!?) Element Issue

[pyrefiend]

Alrighy then...
For some time now, I have been working on a new base class, which uses the four classical Greek elements to power their attacks. Thus, my previous thread an Element Issue. The central idea behind the whole class is this: their spellcrafting is in many ways random. They are capable of at least a few highly damaging attacks, but not always at the most opportune moments. The problem was that if the ability to cast a spell was determined by the roll of a die (every round in combat, not by choice) than certain spells, such as, I dunno... simulacrum, would have no meaning because they are needed only at specific times. So I decided to keep only one main spell like ability random- a basic damaging spell called spirit ray. But I wanted to keep spells random all the time, so I just decided to focus on other abilities for the class. It took me a while, but I finished. But I still hated the final product. After looking it over I realized that the whole class left very little room to customize for yourself. So I had too bring back spells, but in a totally random, yet uh... not random? way.

Stay with me here. In an effort to keep spellcraft random, yet usable, I made a class feature called Element Rush. The idea is basicly like the barbarian's rage, only with spells and infuriatingly complicated. My idea is that when you get spells, they aren't assigned to slots like usual. Instead you get a certain amount of points to spend at each level on spells. The more points you spend on a given spell, the more likely it is to be avalible during an element rush, which is the only time you use most spells. Here is how rushes work: you can attempt to use an element rush X times per day. When you do, you roll 2d20, which is the DC you must beat in a caster check to take on the rush. The higher the DC you beat, the more spells you can use. Say I spend 1 point in charm monster. Than I'll only be able to use it when I beat a very high DC. (35-40) At low levels, you want to put a lot of points in a few spells, so that you can usually make the random DC required to get them. So if I put 20 points in only 2 spells, rather than 1 point in 20 spells, not only will it be more likely that the random DC is in the right range, but you'll be able to make it most of the time. So, what do you think... horribly distorted, utterly brilliant?

[Serakus_DeSardis]

I can see the general direction you are going in, but I would definetly agree with your own thoughts. It is incredibly complicated and frustrating. One of the things I like to keep in mind when developing classes is that the game is already complicated enough. I try to build classes that add flavor and at the same time maintain the current amount of technical reliance (such as dice rolls or mechanics). I often find myself choosing abilities that are more static rather than abilities that add mechanics. That being said, I love the concept of the class, I just think you should try to simplify the mechanics side of it in a way that still makes you very happy.

[pyrefiend]

True, but I still need something to give a reasonably random system of spellcasting, other than the spirit ray. The founding idea here is that the Elementalist, Primordial, whatever- is harnesing very strong, but unpredictable power. Maybe it would be O.K. if I changed it so that there was no caster check involved? The 2d20 roll would remain the same, and the point system. I'm still trying to think of SOMETHING to change in order to fix this.

[Triaxx]

Instead of Element Rush, why not Element Storm.

Element Storm
Once per two levels per day, an Elementalist may concentrate on one of his or her four elements, and attempt to produce a beneficial effect consisting of a spell of that element.

[Fizban]

Why not something like the Crusader? The element rush could work like a rage, and when you enter rush mode you roll to see which or your spells are available. Then you roll again each round to see what other spells you can use.

[oriong]

There are two places you might look.

The first is Truename Magic, which is I believe the only skill based magic in 3.5 D+D. Unfortunately I don't own the book it's in myself (Tome of Magic) so I can't provide any actual stats but I assume it uses a d20 roll typical to skills, with higher DCs for higher difficulty powers.

The second is the Wild Mage (in Complete Arcane), essentially whenever they cast a spell they add 1d6-3 to the caster level of all spells he uses. In theory spells could sometimes blow up completely in the spellcaster's face, but no actual mechanic is presented for that.


As for your current idea, unless the class is already very effective without magic I'd drop the idea of Elemental Rage. How effective can you be when you can only attempt spells a couple of times per day? You might go the Warlock route and grant elementalists a very small selection of possible abilities (which they can use very often or at will). Obviously some spells just lack an elemental theme after all. This way you can select spells that are elementally themed and can be suitably randomized in some way unique to each spell.

Alternately if you want very basic levels of elemental power then assign each element a specific set of abilities and grant each ability a 'level'. For instance Earth might have the abilities of Movement (moving earth around, mainly to hit things with it), Creation (of earth, metal, crystal, etc.), Shaping (making objects from earth) and Transmutation (turning earth into metal, mud, etc). Level 1 Creation might be only enough to create a handful of pebbles while level 6 (the theoretical max in this case) could create a wall of adamantine or an avalanche's worth of stone (with spells like wall of stone, wall of iron, Minor/major creation all falling in between). Then provide some simple mechanic to determine if the spell works as intended (will it be totally random, or can higher level elementalists make it more reliable). If it does not work as intended then the spell's level is modified by 1d12-6 (or 1d10-5, or 1d8-4, whatever). If it's taken below 0 then the effect is non-existant or negligible (a single pebbles or a puff of dust) and it cannot increase above 6 (or maybe have a 7th level atainable only by such surges).

So if an elementalist wants to light his campire (probably only a level 1 effect) he might (if he fails to control the elemental forces) either get nothing or engulf the entire forest in flames (a good reason not to use elemental energies casually)

[pyrefiend]

Alternately if you want very basic levels of elemental power then assign each element a specific set of abilities and grant each ability a 'level'. For instance Earth might have the abilities of Movement (moving earth around, mainly to hit things with it), Creation (of earth, metal, crystal, etc.), Shaping (making objects from earth) and Transmutation (turning earth into metal, mud, etc). Level 1 Creation might be only enough to create a handful of pebbles while level 6 (the theoretical max in this case) could create a wall of adamantine or an avalanche's worth of stone (with spells like wall of stone, wall of iron, Minor/major creation all falling in between). Then provide some simple mechanic to determine if the spell works as intended (will it be totally random, or can higher level elementalists make it more reliable). If it does not work as intended then the spell's level is modified by 1d12-6 (or 1d10-5, or 1d8-4, whatever). If it's taken below 0 then the effect is non-existant or negligible (a single pebbles or a puff of dust) and it cannot increase above 6 (or maybe have a 7th level atainable only by such surges).

So if an elementalist wants to light his campire (probably only a level 1 effect) he might (if he fails to control the elemental forces) either get nothing or engulf the entire forest in flames (a good reason not to use elemental energies casually)

This seems like a great idea to represent what I'm trying to do here.:smallbiggrin: Now all I need are some elemental abilities (creation and transmutation are both good ideas, oriong.) Then I need some sort of guideline so it can be understood what sort of powers goes under what level slot.

For an example, if transmutation is a slot, than maybe any power that transmutes five pounds or less of earthen material into stone, metal or crystal falls under the 1st level catagory.

[Triaxx]

The second is the Wild Mage (in Complete Arcane), essentially whenever they cast a spell they add 1d6-3 to the caster level of all spells he uses. In theory spells could sometimes blow up completely in the spellcaster's face, but no actual mechanic is presented for that.

In the computer game Baldur's Gate II, the Wild Mage class had a complete set of possible effects, ranging with a number of 1-100. Without aid of a computer, it's a two dice roll. One d20, and a d6. First is the number, second is multplier for the effect. Six counts as one. You could write a table of a hundred possible effects, and that's the determinant.

Example:
An Element Rush is used. DM rolls the d20, and gets a 15, then rolls the d6, and gets a 2. Effect 30 is the result. It's a bit of work for everyone, but it's consistent, and can be modified before, or during the game.

[Fizban]

Or you could use 2d10 like everyone else......(one is the ten's digit and the other is the one's, 00 is 100).:smallamused:

[pyrefiend]

In the computer game Baldur's Gate II, the Wild Mage class had a complete set of possible effects, ranging with a number of 1-100. Without aid of a computer, it's a two dice roll. One d20, and a d6. First is the number, second is multplier for the effect. Six counts as one. You could write a table of a hundred possible effects, and that's the determinant.

Example:
An Element Rush is used. DM rolls the d20, and gets a 15, then rolls the d6, and gets a 2. Effect 30 is the result. It's a bit of work for everyone, but it's consistent, and can be modified before, or during the game.

I dont know. Are you talking about a single avaliable spell with 100 possible effects? Unless the variations are very, very slight I dont see much usefulness coming from that. I'd prefer something with more choice.

[Triaxx]

Fizban: You could do it that way... But that makes it too easy on the DM's, and I spend my time looking for ways to aggravate the DM's.

pyrefiend:I disagree. The variations of the spell are rather varied, because you don't go:

1-20: Fire stuff.
21-40: Ice stuff...

Instead, you randomly place an effect. Say 1 is a powerful ice spell, and two is the weakest lightning spell. So the effect of an Element Rush is totally random. So if you use it on your campfire, you might light it, or you might freeze it solid.

[oriong]

I remember the old wild mages (I once made an expanded list that was 1000 different effects), but the main thing was that wild surges were rare things for wild mages, not happening every time they cast a spell (a 1 in 20 chance each time).


If the elementalist can only call upon purely random effects (even if there is a limited amount of variation) then they definitely need to to be something other than primary spellcasters. Maybe someone with at least the combat ability of the Ranger or the Hexblade (without any of their special abilities), so that they can be solid melee or ranged based combat characters. If every single effect is random they'll have absolutely 0 utility value compared to other spellcasters (being completely unable to help their fellows) and only a moderate amount of combat value since they never know from spell to spell whether or not the action spent to use the spell will be more or less worthwhile than simply attacking or even doing nothing.

[pyrefiend]

I wanted to make this clearer but an elementalist can only have one element (chosen at first level) with which to evoke. Also I don't want elementalists purely casting destructive spells. You could apply other types of non-destructive effects to the randomized spell, but I don't foresee that working too well...

Volcan: Now watch my fellow adventurers, as I light the campfire WITHOUT flint or steel!
David: I don't think so Volcan. Remember last time you attempted something moderately helpful?
Volcan: Nonsense! And now...
*wall of blades
David: Oh gods! My spleeeeeeeeeeen!
Volcan: (sigh) Maybe next time I'll roll a 38 out of 100 possible effects

I want to try to keep this primary spellcaster. Actually, something like that Crusader ability sounds good, except that maybe random spells would be drawn from a couple of power-type pools. That way you can rely on having at least one of each basic power. But thats just a very vague idea, I'm still open to any random-ish suggestion.

[oriong]

My reccomendation is to make them Warlock-like, very small selection of spells (or spell-like abilities) which you can easily produce 'elemental surges' for each spell and maybe a core offensive ability like the warlock's elemental blast (an elemental blast) which could be modified just like warlock spells to affect different areas, ranges, etc.

use the elemental blast as the 'core' damage effect, and make their limited spell like ability selection as the source for their utility and non combat abilities, just come up with a randomization element unique to each effect.

[pyrefiend]

So, How about this:
1. The Elementalist has a spirit ray class ability which allows him to fire a powerful ray of energy at random times during combat.
2.The Elementalist has a small list of controllables. These are spells usable many times per day and create predictable, fairly weak effects.
3. The Elementalist has a list of power surges, which are very strong spells usable a few times a day. Anything used on this list requires a caster check to be succesful, with a failed check resulting in a change of 1d8-4 caster level. Caster level reaching zero results in negligable effects, while an increase of 2 caster levels or more results in half the spell's damage going to the caster.

There. I think that creates a class who can summon some helpful effects as well as powerful, random ones:smallbiggrin:
What do you think?

[Fax Celestis]

So, How about this:
1. The Elementalist has a spirit ray class ability which allows him to fire a powerful ray of energy at random times during combat.
2.The Elementalist has a small list of controllables. These are spells usable many times per day and create predictable, fairly weak effects.
3. The Elementalist has a list of power surges, which are very strong spells usable a few times a day. Anything used on this list requires a caster check to be succesful, with a failed check resulting in a change of 1d8-4 caster level. Caster level reaching zero results in negligable effects, while an increase of 2 caster levels or more results in half the spell's damage going to the caster.

There. I think that creates a class who can summon some helpful effects as well as powerful, random ones:smallbiggrin:
What do you think?

Sounds like a variant Warlock to me.

[I_Got_This_Name]

What you do for the Crusader-type thing is divide spells into (at least) two groups: offensive and defensive/support. Possibly add in control and miscellaneous. They get one available spell of each type (or can choose a few types, or, possibly, get some of random types), and then either randomly determine or choose which type they get their next available spell from.

Possibly even make it so that their spells are divided into those four groups, and they get one spell of each group available; instead of randomly getting a new one every round, they get a new spell to replace anything they cast (of the same type), or can re-randomize a spell without casting it, and get a new spell of that type (probably make that a free action, swift or move at most, and I'd allow multiple types to be re-randomized as a single action. As a free action, I wouldn't let them cycle spells more than once per round, or, especially, in a row, though).

Spells known would remain a limitation, and they could possibly have something similar to the Crusader's readied maneuvers.

Possibly make this only happen while in a certain state that they can only use a limited number of times per day, or give them a limit to the number of spells per day they can cast, or limit each spell to being cast once per day, or something.

Example:
Bob the Fire Mage has Scorching Ray as his active offensive spell. He realizes that Scorching Ray sucks, but needs to use an offensive spell. He switches his readied active spell, and gains access to a Fireball. He then casts the Fireball, and his random active spell comes up as Burning Blood. He can now cast Burning Blood on his next turn.

On his next turn, though, he decides to cast a defensive spell. He decides to cast Mass Fire Shield, and gains Resist Energy as his new defensive spell. Knowing that he's fighting a mage, he casts Resist Energy using a metamagic rod of quickening. His defensive spell comes up as Cat's Grace. Bob decides that he doesn't need that right now, and cycles it, finding Haste. On his next turn, he can cast Haste, Burning Blood, or, possibly, both (due to his metamagic rod), plus whatever spells are on his other lists.

[pyrefiend]

Sounds like a variant Warlock to me.
*Sigh... which is exactly what I was hoping it wouldn't turn out as...:smallfrown:
There must be a better way to give powerful, random abilities to a base class! My sanity depends on it! Anyone have a suggestion?
I think that the spirit ray ability is all right, but does anyone have some suggestions as to how I can incorporate non-damage-associated spells? Once again, we don't (thank you very much Fax Celestis) want a variant Warlock.

Edit- Nice idea I Got This Name! That seems perfect. The only thing I might change is that... actually you know what, never mind. That's great as it is. How about this ability to go along with it:

Overpush: If the elementalist choses, he can let himself succum to the elemental forces that drive his power. On his next spell, he rolls 1d8-4. If the result is less than 1, the spell has no effect and the Elementalist takes half the damge the spell would have dealt. Otherwise the effective caster level of the Elementalist increases by the result of the die roll for the duration of the spell.

And how about these catagories: Offence, Defence, Control, and Special.

[Triaxx]

Volcan: Now watch my fellow adventurers, as I light the campfire WITHOUT flint or steel!
David: I don't think so Volcan. Remember last time you attempted something moderately helpful?
Volcan: Nonsense! And now...
*wall of blades
David: Oh gods! My spleeeeeeeeeeen!
Volcan: (sigh) Maybe next time I'll roll a 38 out of 100 possible effects


That explains something then. Presto was an Elementalist...

Joking aside, randomize the damage of the spells. Example:

Erdrick is an Elementalist of the Flame. Drawing on his elemental power he unleashes a Fireball. Which promptly does 1d6 damage. A second casting does 2d12 damage.

In effect you roll a d12 to determine which die is used, and then a d10 to determine how many rolls. So you could potentially end up with a 10d20 spell, or a 1d4. Which die is rolled would repeat 1-5=d4, 2-6=d6, and so on.

[Fax Celestis]

That explains something then. Presto was an Elementalist...

Joking aside, randomize the damage of the spells. Example:

Erdrick is an Elementalist of the Flame. Drawing on his elemental power he unleashes a Fireball. Which promptly does 1d6 damage. A second casting does 2d12 damage.

In effect you roll a d12 to determine which die is used, and then a d10 to determine how many rolls. So you could potentially end up with a 10d20 spell, or a 1d4. Which die is rolled would repeat 1-5=d4, 2-6=d6, and so on.

Simplify, simplify:

Roll a d6 to determine the die (just multiply the result by two!)

Roll another d6 to determine the number of dice.

And, at points through the course of the class, upgrade that second d6 to, say, a d10 at CL10, 2d8 at CL 16, 3d6 at CL 18, and 5d4 at CL 20.

[pyrefiend]

Simplify, simplify:

Roll a d6 to determine the die (just multiply the result by two!)

Roll another d6 to determine the number of dice.

And, at points through the course of the class, upgrade that second d6 to, say, a d10 at CL10, 2d8 at CL 16, 3d6 at CL 18, and 5d4 at CL 20.
Sounds good, except for just one thing. If what we're using is the whole crusader concept, rolling for new spells each round, than I don't know how different evocations would work with this concept. Actually, I think that this concept would be best applied to spirit ray, because scorching ray suddenly becomes a lot more powerful than fireball when you use the random die idea, for example.

[Torpedo Ted]

I think I agree with you pyrefiend. But a caster being able to pull off a string of spells at level one? I don't know if that is the case, but that's what it seems like it is if the whole crusader idea is used.

[pyrefiend]

I think I agree with you pyrefiend. But a caster being able to pull off a string of spells at level one? I don't know if that is the case, but that's what it seems like it is if the whole crusader idea is used.

Yeah but actually I think that spellcasting for the elementalist would only be possible during periods of time dependant on a key stat modifier. Like let's say that George the earth elementalist wants to go start spellcasting. He has a Con modifier of +5, so he can maintain spellcasting mode for 30 rounds per day, maybe, because perhaps you can sustain this mode for a number of rounds equal to the key stat modifier X 6. Or something.

But I just thought of something else. What about randomly determining spells? How is that done? A roll of the die seems obious, but that only seems posible if I keep the number of spells a number devisable by 6 or 8 or something. This class should be learning new spells like a sorcerer, too, so I'm feeling stuck as to how I should randomize spells.

[Fizban]

Well, the crusader can only have so many spells ready at once. Max of 6 or 7 IIRC, and that's at the end of 20 lvls. Then 5 min to change his spells readied between combats. Starts with x random spells at the start of combat, and another randomly opens up each round. Would be especially fun if you got some odd numbered dice to speed things up.

[pyrefiend]

There are still two things I don't unnderstand. One, if spells are randomly replaced after another is cast, than aren't you just as likely to get meteor swarm as burning hands? This is assuming that the class would have a large enough spell list so that it extended to level 9.
Also, I still don't understand how I would generate a random spell. Is it generated by first finding the spell level used, than finding the individual spell, or is the whole list used at once? I still don't understand how die rolls could come up with a number 1-37, unless you made a complicated die roll like
2d3+2d6+2d12-5, which has to be calculated for each possible number of spells known.