I am DMing a gestalt game, possible greatest monster gestalt character ever

[Immabozo]

So one of my players is new and going with a build I helped him with. Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 2/Nature's Warrior 5/ and then druid the rest of the way//Wizard 20 is the build he is going for. He is an Illumian, taking the power sigils to change spellcasting stat (only for number of spells per day) to strength and then as a druid, taking very strong forms (likely trolls and then giants) and have a HUGE number of spells per day, and then when he finally runs out (or as an alternative to spellcasting) he is a very capable melee fighter.

I had another player who seemed to want to build the monster character, using both sides for monster HD. He was looking at Half Dragon/Minotaur//Werebear. I tried to convince him on another build that was better on every account. War Troll(LA 6 plus 12 HD)//Half Dragon (LA 3)/werebear (LA 2 plus 6 HD)/2 war shaper/10 levels war hulk. With 32 point buy, buying an 18 str at character creation, +46 str, +8 dex, +26 con, 23 natural armor, DR 5/Adamantine, large size, movement of 40 ft, 80 ft fly, dark vision 90, low light vision, regeneration 9 scent, spell resist 20, con based DC per hit or target stunned for a round, breath weapon, immunity to charm and sleep spells, immunity to damage of dragon's color, just from monster levels. Another +4 str, +4 con from war shaper (and 5 feet reach and immunity to crits) and another +20 str and the ability to hit every square in reach, every hit, giving him a total +70 str, +8 Dex, +30 con, with 23 natural armor and all those swanky abilities. An 18 str would give him an 88 str, before item enhancements, and a 16 con would give him a 46 con, and every hit hits everyone in his 15 ft reach (except allies), everyone makes a DC 34 fortitude save or be stunned for a round, assuming they survive the 3 or 4 hits with an easily increased 88 str.

Alas, he didn't go for it, being a serious stickler for image and he was going for a different one.

We are starting at level 5.

My third player has yet to make his character. The players seem to be going for the evil campaign, one going Chaotic Neutral, the other Lawful Evil, and the third undecided.

The world will be a massive war between the arcane and divine magics, with the arcane army's leader going for world domination and then build up to the point of being able to take divine levels and become a god.

[Slipperychicken]

So what are you looking for here? Would you like is to post our opinions of the strongest possible gestalt characters?

The common playable one is Factotum//Archivist. Sorc/Wiz to 7th, Divine to 9th, near-total Int SADness, excellent skills, d8, 3/4 BAB. Cunning Surge and SR-ignoring solve the few problems you had trouble crushing with the right magic. If you see this getting to 8th level, take Font of Inspiration 3x and whatever metamagic feats strike your fancy. If Uncanny Forethought works for Archivist spells, consider a dip into Conjurer1 with the immediate magic variant to qualify and gain Abrupt Jaunt.

[Immabozo]

Just looking for opinions, I guess. I know there are better combos out there, sorc wis, and all that, but going strictly a monster character and the great monster classes, I think my guy is pretty damn good. Not super great shinanigans, kinda straight forward, but will he be a damn beast. 46 con at level 20 with 5 levels (from both sides of gestalt) gone to LA, 15 D10, at least, 83 + 270 hp = 353 hp and a naked ac of, depending on dex, around 40, with such an awesome attack, he would decimate anything in melee

[Vaz]

Wu Jen 3/Archivist 3/Geomancer 2/Incantatrix 3/Geomancer +8/Archmage 1.

Then on the other side, take whatever you want. You cast as a Wu Jen 17/Archivist 3, but Geomancer Spell Versatility allows you to cast the prepared Divine Spells as Arcane Spells, and as there's nothing stopping you from preparing Divine Spells in Arcane Slots (only from casting; which Spell Versatility bypasses).

Archmage 1 gives you Miracle as a Spell-like Ability 2/day, and Body Outside Body persisted clones which also have Miracle 2/day.

Take an Outsider race (Elf with Outsider is my recommendation) and get PAO'd permanently into some high Intelligence being (Pit Fiend is my favourite for its other stats). Use your Incantatrix enabled Persisted Clones to cast every single persistable buff spell outside of Enchantment 8+9ths. Use Ocular Spell to make those not normally persistable persistable.

Get a Staff of Mighty Sweeping from PGtF (with Improved Trip); give it the Sizing and Morphing abilities to turn it into a Wooden Spiked Chain, which can scale in size to Colossal (Wu Jen Giant Size turns your Strength 37 Pit Fiend into Strength 69. Give it Bite of the Werebear for 85). Combat Reflexes allows you to make a ton of trip attacks.

But of course, we've not even started going on the other side.

Int based classes that's not spellcasting based; Warblade, but you still need to break through the action economy somehow; StP Erudite? Oh yes. Those Enchantment spells you were missing? They're yours now. All those odd little spells which were unique to an Arcane only class without being able to be grabbed by some form of Divine Conversion are all yours.

[Immabozo]

That does sound like a beast, but the player's intent was straight up big hairy beast with lots of muscles and owns melee, no interest in magic. So i designed a guy that could beat a god in an arm wrestling watch.

Of course the magic casting classes shinanigans get disgusting.

The first one though, I think it is a very powerful build, yet still straight forward enough for a new player.

[Toliudar]

I don't understand how having strength as his stat for spells/day is going to help the wizard/druid. At level 5, it's unlikely that he'll be staying in wildshape all day long (as a matter of fact, I can't think of a way to do that), and as soon as he drops out of the animal shape, he loses the spells.

Unless you're houseruling that that doesn't happen, of course.

[Slipperychicken]

Archmage 1 gives you Miracle as a Spell-like Ability 2/day, and Body Outside Body persisted clones which also have Miracle 2/day.


Not sure what you're getting out of that, since Archmage SLAs still require XP (as normal) plus 10x the material costs in XP.

Personally, I might take Half Ogre Half Minotaur Strongheart Halfling (LA +2, Large size, bonus feat, gore attack, +18 str, +8 con, +6 NA) into Dungeoncrasher Fighter6, then War Hulk. Knockback, Power Attack, big strength and size synergize with Dungeoncrasher. Maybe swing a Spiked Chain if I can get the mental image to work. I would use this as a chassis to add onto.

Sending the mortals flying and splatting across the room is always a good time.

And remember you can get Troll Blooded if you don't want to spend LA to get Regeneration.

[Vaz]

That does sound like a beast, but the player's intent was straight up big hairy beast with lots of muscles and owns melee, no interest in magic. So i designed a guy that could beat a god in an arm wrestling watch.

Of course the magic casting classes shinanigans get disgusting.

The first one though, I think it is a very powerful build, yet still straight forward enough for a new player.

It's only one build o.O

One side of the build is the Spell List: Everything, the other side gives you the ability to cast the none Divine ones as Powers; so untyped bonuses from spells can stack. Death knell is untyped I think; so using all of your Level 2+ spell slots as an Int 44 Caster nets you +100 Strength if used on your weakest of BoB clones (although does deal you 500 damage in return for 50d8 (average 225) so some of the clones healing you as you absorb 3 hours worth of +100 Strength eventually).

Strength wise, that's 185 before additional enhancement. Oddly, Giant Size isn't a size bonus, I don't think, it's not listed as such.

Still once you can cast all such spells, just take a Flaw for Natural Spell and you're golden; that way you can be the big ugly whatever.

[Immabozo]

I don't understand how having strength as his stat for spells/day is going to help the wizard/druid. At level 5, it's unlikely that he'll be staying in wildshape all day long (as a matter of fact, I can't think of a way to do that), and as soon as he drops out of the animal shape, he loses the spells.

Unless you're houseruling that that doesn't happen, of course.

At level 5, yes, he will have trouble staying shifted all day. He can spend a feat to get an extra shift per day, being shifted for 10 hours a day. At six, he'll have 2 (or feat gives 3) shifts for a total of 12 (or 18) hours a day. The level after will be 3 (or 4) shifts per day for 21 (or 28) hours. He might not be perfect off the bat, but what build does everything as intended off the bat?


Personally, I might take Half Ogre Half Minotaur Strongheart Halfling (LA +2, Large size, bonus feat, gore attack, +18 str, +8 con, +6 NA) into Dungeoncrasher Fighter6, then War Hulk. Knockback, Power Attack, big strength and size synergize with Dungeoncrasher. Maybe swing a Spiked Chain if I can get the mental image to work. I would use this as a chassis to add onto.

Sending the mortals flying and splatting across the room is always a good time.

And remember you can get Troll Blooded if you don't want to spend LA to get Regeneration.

Good times. I've never seen Dungeoncrasher fighter. What book is that in? Also, troll blooded, where is that? I haven't seen this feat either.


One side of the build is the Spell List: Everything, the other side gives you the ability to cast the none Divine ones as Powers; so untyped bonuses from spells can stack. Death knell is untyped I think; so using all of your Level 2+ spell slots as an Int 44 Caster nets you +100 Strength if used on your weakest of BoB clones (although does deal you 500 damage in return for 50d8 (average 225) so some of the clones healing you as you absorb 3 hours worth of +100 Strength eventually).

Strength wise, that's 185 before additional enhancement. Oddly, Giant Size isn't a size bonus, I don't think, it's not listed as such.

Still once you can cast all such spells, just take a Flaw for Natural Spell and you're golden; that way you can be the big ugly whatever.

unfortunately, this has lost me completely, but please explain, cause it sounds terribly interesting

[kardar233]

Not sure what you're getting out of that, since Archmage SLAs still require XP (as normal) plus 10x the material costs in XP.

Miracle doesn't cost XP unless you're using the "greater request" clause, so if you have 2/day Miracle and you cast Body Outside Body all your clones have 2/day Miracle.

[Vaz]

unfortunately, this has lost me completely, but please explain, cause it sounds terribly interesting

There are two sides to the progression, the first is;

Wu Jen 3/Archivist 3/Geomancer 10/Incantatrix 3/Archmage 1

And the other side is Erudite 20 with the Convert Spell to Power ACF.

The first side lets you learn essentially all spells, and also cast them, regardless of being Arcane or Divine courtesy of Spell Versatility. Wu Jen has a spell called Body Outside Body, which lets you create clones of yourself without Spellcasting ability; there is no mention of Psionics, and there is no mention of Spell-likes, but you also keep your own class features.

Body Outside Body can make 3 clones as basic, but with Caster Level optimization, 6-8 is capable. By this stage, you've already polymorphed into a being of immense intelligence humoungous hitting power. Incantatrix allows you to apply Metamagic at the result of an easily optimizable Spellcraft test to any spell that is currently in effect; typically Persisting minute or round long buffs to all day, as well as being able to donate your own spell-slots to providing free metamagic to a spell caster.

Archmage gives you 2 SLA's of your choice a day; make it Miracle. This can be used to cast any buffing spell you imagine.

Combine with Body Outside Body, essentially every spell cast on you (courtesy of Ocular spell) is Maximised, Empowered, Persisted and Extended.

The other side, the Spell to Power Erudite lets you learn Arcane spells as Powers, giving them a power point cost, with PP gained via Intelligence synergy; resulting in around 500+ Power Points to "cast" those "spells" with. Think mana from Final Fantasy, you can continue to cast the spells there for a mana cost, which is detracted from your total until you can heal them; in this case, a new day.

This means that you can reserve all of your Spell slots for Divine Spells; of which Death Knell is a lowly Level 2; at Wu Jen Spells per day at 17th with 44 Intelligence, this typically results in around 50 spell slots of 2nd level or above.

If you have your followers bring you a load of dying creatures, which you then use every available spell slot on casting Death Knell; Death Knell provides an untyped bonus of d8 HP and +2 Strength. Using the Clones to provide Empower and Maximise has no effect on the strength, but gives you 12 HP per cast; or a further 600 Temporary HP which persists for 24 hours.

You then get all the other arcane buff spells involved. Death Knell is about one of the least optimized ways of using that build; and sometimes there's nothing more fun than making a Chain Tripper with a 60ft range and a Strength bonus that hits a minimum of 50 without ubercharging.

Precisely before you rip the planet in two.

[Immabozo]

wow, that is amazing. Where can I find Erudites? This is one class I am unfamiliar with

[DMVerdandi]

wow, that is amazing. Where can I find Erudites? This is one class I am unfamiliar with

Complete Psionic, near the back of the book.
Also on the wizards of the coast website.
It is the best class in the game from my perspective.

Beats out all other casters for sure.
Plays two different ways depending on interpretation. The haxx version has 99 Unique powers to cast from. More UP than points to use, but you don't have to use them all. It just allows you to cast 9 powers from any level, per level.

The other only gives you max like... 11 powers per day.
This one is hard initially, but once you get 5+ Powers a day, you take one combat power, like... Energy Ray, and spam that until you need a specific power.

Best part is the in combat manifesting. I simply love the way the class is played.
If it had one Unique power per day, per level, and bonus powers per Int Bonus, then it would have been perfect. Absolutely perfect.

AND THEN there is spell to power.
Magnificent.