[Eberron] Siberys Mark of Making: is there any way that it isn't broken?

[Mr Adventurer]

So, the Siberys Mark of Making gives you True Creation as an SLA 1-2/day.

True Creation is as Major Creation, except the duration is Instantaneous. Normally it has an XP cost equal to the GP cost of what you're making...

But SLAs don't have XP costs.

Even ignoring the benefit of the reduced casting time to a Standard Action for SLA use... I'm having a hard time seeing how any character WOULDN'T come up with the idea of creating a block of diamond, or mithril, or adamantine, or whatever, whenever they didn't have a more pressing use for their Mark that day... and that completely throws WBL out of kilter for a start.

Am I missing something?

[AsteriskAmp]

So, the Siberys Mark of Making gives you True Creation as an SLA 1-2/day.

True Creation is as Major Creation, except the duration is Instantaneous. Normally it has an XP cost equal to the GP cost of what you're making...

But SLAs don't have XP costs.

Even ignoring the benefit of the reduced casting time to a Standard Action for SLA use... I'm having a hard time seeing how any character WOULDN'T come up with the idea of creating a block of diamond, or mithril, or adamantine, or whatever, whenever they didn't have a more pressing use for their Mark that day... and that completely throws WBL out of kilter for a start.

Am I missing something?That the errata made it useless.

Page 81: Heir of Siberys Prestige Class
The Siberys Mark of Making grants the
spell-like ability of true creation once
per day. Add the following sentence to
the Mark of Making paragraph: The heir
of Siberys must pay the normal XP cost
of the true creation spell (see page 117)
each time he uses this ability.

Yes, fabricate is better, and you get that from the Greater Mark.

[Kuulvheysoon]

There's also the fluff impact to consider, even pre-errata.

There's maybe one or two (at most) bearers of a Siberys mark in 50 years for each House. And with the Siberys Mark of Making, the Elders of House Cannith would keep them tightly under wraps. I'd be surprised if they ever got to leave an Enclave, to tell you the truth.

[AsteriskAmp]

There's also the fluff impact to consider, even pre-errata.

There's maybe one or two (at most) bearers of a Siberys mark in 50 years for each House. And with the Siberys Mark of Making, the Elders of House Cannith would keep them tightly under wraps. I'd be surprised if they ever got to leave an Enclave, to tell you the truth.Post Errata, your average wizard is better than the guy with the great ability of making.

[toapat]

Am I missing something?

2 levels with a bad class, the eratta if you play with it.

[Mr Adventurer]

Oh, ok, yeah, that "fixes" it. Thanks.

Why's 'an average Wizard' better at it though? Just the access to skill buffing spells and an increasable caster level?

[AsteriskAmp]

Oh, ok, yeah, that "fixes" it. Thanks.

Why's 'an average Wizard' better at it though? Just the access to skill buffing spells and an increasable caster level?Because he can cast the spell at the same cost, apart from being able to cast other spells amongst which is fabricate, which is strictly better than true creation seeing gp cost is easier to stomach than 5*gp cost in xp.

Not only this, but even a wizard taking Heir of Syberys is worse off since he is going to be a level behind and getting True Creation later and with one less feat (because Heroic Spirit is a feat tax, truth be told unless you have a way of converting action point to metamagic which even then screws you over if you level slowly).

The wizard can actually even use True Creation as written for better purposes because he has the whole toolset for creating things. A cleric with the Creation Domain is also strictly better than the Heir now that I think of it, on top of all their already awesome clerical toys. Throw in Dweomerkeeper and they can do True Creation as per pre-errata only supernatural instead.

The errata took it from amazingly awesome and borderline ridiculous to absolutely useless and a must avoid prc.

[Mr Adventurer]

Well, it nerfed the Siberys Mark of Making, making it terrible; did the errata also hit the other Siberys marks?

[Piggy Knowles]

Well, it nerfed the Siberys Mark of Making, making it terrible; did the errata also hit the other Siberys marks?

I wouldn't say it makes it terrible; True Creation is still an exceptionally useful SLA to have even with the XP cost. Sure, a wizard can now cast it better than you, and cast other 9th level spells to boot... but that has more to do with how good wizards are than how bad the Siberys Mark of Making is.

[AsteriskAmp]

Well, it nerfed the Siberys Mark of Making, making it terrible; did the errata also hit the other Siberys marks?
No, but they are all horrendous anyway. A single spell once a day a class feature does not make.

The only ones even slightly better than just getting the spell as a wizard are Storm of Vengeance one level earlier, Refuge without Material component (which was basically worthless), Mass Heal one level earlier than the cleric, and free Awaken. The only one even worth glimpsing at is the free Awaken with standard action casting time. But a straight wizard is going to be strictly superior to a heir of Syberys. Even a Greater Mark of Makign is better than the Syberys version which is rather pathetic.

I wouldn't say it makes it terrible; True Creation is still an exceptionally useful SLA to have even with the XP cost. Sure, a wizard can now cast it better than you, and cast other 9th level spells to boot... but that has more to do with how good wizards are than how bad the Siberys Mark of Making is.Fabricate is better than True Creation, you get Fabricate with the Greater Mark. The XP cost is simply obscene considering it's based in gp*5. You simply are better off paying the gold than XP.

A SLA a day is not a good class. Getting Spell Likes, at the same time as the class who casts it is worthless unless you get something else; the Heir does not.

[Piggy Knowles]

Fabricate requires the raw materials, of a value equal to what you're creating, as a material component. True Creation has no such restriction. That's a significant difference. You essentially trade the raw material required for Fabricate for XP, which means you can use it on demand.

I agree that the non-Siberys Mark of Making is better - three feats for Make Whole, Minor Creation and Fabricate is a good deal, especially as you get a couple of uses of the lesser marks. But to say that True Creation is terrible, when it's one of the most versatile spells around, is just not true.

EDIT: Mind Blank is also a decent Siberys mark thanks to its 24 hour duration. Not a terrible thing to pick up if you're not playing a wizard.

[AsteriskAmp]

Fabricate requires the raw materials, of a value equal to what you're creating, as a material component. True Creation has no such restriction. That's a significant difference. You essentially trade the raw material required for Fabricate for XP, which means you can use it on demand.

I agree that the non-Siberys Mark of Making is better - three feats for Make Whole, Minor Creation and Fabricate is a good deal, especially as you get a couple of uses of the lesser marks. But to say that True Creation is terrible, when it's one of the most versatile spells around, is just not true.

EDIT: Mind Blank is also a decent Siberys mark thanks to its 24 hour duration. Not a terrible thing to pick up if you're not playing a wizard.You cannot take the feats due to the wording of Heir of Syberys for taking other dragonmarks. And I do not believe those feats are worth it (except Fabricate) considering one can be eternal wanded and the other wanded or UMDed from a scroll.

As for trading raw material for XP, it makes it the opposite since the conversion rate is horrible and XP is always going to be less than GP and more important.

They are all level 8 spells (and well, one level 7 and one level 9) they are better than whole classes to non-casters.

[Piggy Knowles]

I know you can't take both Heir of Siberys and the dragonmark feats. That's why I brought them up.

If Fabricate just cost gp, I'd agree that it was better. But you need the specific raw materials of whatever you're creating. And because they're considered the material component for the spell, you can't just Minor/Major Creation them into existence. Fabricate is still a great spell, but True Creation can be used on demand.

And for any non-caster, I think Minor Creation is totally worth a feat or two. The main downside to it is that it's so thoroughly outclassed by simply taking Hidden Talent and picking up the psionic version at first level.

[AsteriskAmp]

I know you can't take both Heir of Siberys and the dragonmark feats. That's why I brought them up.

If Fabricate just cost gp, I'd agree that it was better. But you need the specific raw materials of whatever you're creating. And because they're considered the material component for the spell, you can't just Minor/Major Creation them into existence. Fabricate is still a great spell, but True Creation can be used on demand.

And for any non-caster, I think Minor Creation is totally worth a feat or two. The main downside to it is that it's so thoroughly outclassed by simply taking Hidden Talent and picking up the psionic version at first level.
The dragonmark feats are kinda better than the GREATEST DRAGONMARK AROUND! class... which is sad.

The issue is that it isn't "on demand" because you have less XP than gp and in most cases it's easier to find said materials rather than to sacrifice the XP required.

For any non-caster, anything giving high level spells is probably going to be better than their class. With counted exceptions.