What are the best animals to Wild Shape into?

[mcv]

I'm playing a level 8 Druid, and I have to admit I haven't really Wild Shaped into a lot of different animals yet. I've been a wolf once, mostly for the speed and the scent (I since discovered that scent doesn't work during Wild Shape).
I often turn into an eagle, which is the only regular small animal that can fly. My animal companion is also an eagle, so it feels kinda appropriate. And now that I can turn into large animals, I've turned into a tiger twice. Maybe a brown bear too. Not sure.

I just found out that I can also turn into Dire animals, which makes Dire Wolf an option (mobile damage with trip), Dire Bat (high AC, fly, and can carry party members, which sounds very useful), and even the Dire Lion is only 8 HD.

A weird thing I noticed is that the regular tiger seemed to be better than the dire lion in some ways. Now that I'm looking at them again, I can't really find anything other than the rake damage where the tiger really beats the dire lion, but the difference is pretty small.

So I'm wondering, maybe I'm not all that good at judging these animal stats at a glance. So what you do think are the best animals to use for Wild Shape?

Preferably focus on core, 8 HD or less, and non-dinosaurs (since I'm not in a prehistoric setting), though I'm fine if some notable animals outside that get discussed too.

[Deophaun]

A weird thing I noticed is that the regular tiger seemed to be better than the dire lion in some ways. Now that I'm looking at them again, I can't really find anything other than the rake damage where the tiger really beats the dire lion, but the difference is pretty small.
Actually, when you wild shape into a tiger or a dire lion, your rake attacks will be identical, because the tiger's increased rake damage comes from a feat which you don't get by wild shaping (Improved Natural Attack (claw)). So the dire lion is better in every way.

Bears are good for grappling. If you go in the water, you can turn into a giant octopus. That's probably about it for core.

If you can the Desmodo Guard Bat in MMII is a better choice than a Dire Bat, especially if you use Enhance Wild Shape.

[Ketiara]

I'm playing a level 8 Druid, and I have to admit I haven't really Wild Shaped into a lot of different animals yet. I've been a wolf once, mostly for the speed and the scent (I since discovered that scent doesn't work during Wild Shape).
I often turn into an eagle, which is the only regular small animal that can fly. My animal companion is also an eagle, so it feels kinda appropriate. And now that I can turn into large animals, I've turned into a tiger twice. Maybe a brown bear too. Not sure.

I just found out that I can also turn into Dire animals, which makes Dire Wolf an option (mobile damage with trip), Dire Bat (high AC, fly, and can carry party members, which sounds very useful), and even the Dire Lion is only 8 HD.

A weird thing I noticed is that the regular tiger seemed to be better than the dire lion in some ways. Now that I'm looking at them again, I can't really find anything other than the rake damage where the tiger really beats the dire lion, but the difference is pretty small.

So I'm wondering, maybe I'm not all that good at judging these animal stats at a glance. So what you do think are the best animals to use for Wild Shape?

Preferably focus on core, 8 HD or less, and non-dinosaurs (since I'm not in a prehistoric setting), though I'm fine if some notable animals outside that get discussed too.

At lvl 8 my favourite:
Rhino for powerful charge
Brown bear for grappeling
Dire lion for general melee charge (pounce) and grapple
And a high dex form for when i want to stay at range and cast spells (desmondu bat is good untill you get legendary eagle)

[AWiz_Abroad]

Actually, when you wild shape into a tiger or a dire lion, your rake attacks will be identical, because the tiger's increased rake damage comes from a feat which you don't get by wild shaping (Improved Natural Attack (claw)). So the dire lion is better in every way.

I am getting ready to play a wildshaper, with a few feats invested into Improved Natural Attack. Why doesn't this work with wildshape? Particularly if you spend all day in wild shape. (Epic level game)

[Deophaun]

I am getting ready to play a wildshaper, with a few feats invested into Improved Natural Attack. Why doesn't this work with wildshape? Particularly if you spend all day in wild shape. (Epic level game)
If it's a feat that you have taken, then it will work.

However, the tiger in the MM already has the Improved Natural Attack (claw) feat. If you were to wild shape into the tiger, and you did not take Improved Natural Attack (claw) on your own, then its claw and rake attacks would be 1d6, not the 1d8 in the entry. If you did take Improved Natural Attack (claw), then the claw and rake attacks would be 1d8, not 2d6.

It's the same thing with the Dire Lion. If you take Improved Natural Attack (claw), then your claw and rake attacks will also be 1d8 in that form, instead of 1d6.

[some guy]

You've already mentioned the Dire Bat, but one more benefit of that form is that has a fly speed and can hover, which means you can cast spells with a casting duration of 1 round like Summon Nature's Ally while in flight.

I also took a liking to change into snakes to go through small cracks and holes.

[mcv]

Actually, when you wild shape into a tiger or a dire lion, your rake attacks will be identical, because the tiger's increased rake damage comes from a feat which you don't get by wild shaping (Improved Natural Attack (claw)). So the dire lion is better in every way.
Wait, so when I use Wild Shape, I can't simply use the stats that the animal has, but I have to deconstruct the stats and figure out where everything comes from? That's insane.

Are there any other things I don't get in Wild Shape? I'm already aware of extraordinary (non-attack) abilities.


Bears are good for grappling. If you go in the water, you can turn into a giant octopus. That's probably about it for core.
I should have mentioned the giant octopus. I just used that for the first time in yesterday's session. And a long time ago, I've used the squid, which is also quite excellent for its level.


If you can the Desmodo Guard Bat in MMII is a better choice than a Dire Bat, especially if you use Enhance Wild Shape.
What does Enhance Wild Shape do? I don't think that's core, is it?



If it's a feat that you have taken, then it will work.
So as a human druid, I can take the Improved Natural Attack feat and get bonus damage in animal form? That sounds pretty cool. (But I don't get many feats, so I'm not sure it's actually worth it.)



You've already mentioned the Dire Bat, but one more benefit of that form is that has a fly speed and can hover, which means you can cast spells with a casting duration of 1 round like Summon Nature's Ally while in flight.
I had no idea that was an issue at all. It's quite possible we've been ignoring the flying rules completely so far.

Yesterday the DM wasn't entirely sure whether I should be able to cast spells in eagle form, sitting at the side of a pool (I was going to scry). Not flying. But I figured, if you can't cast spells in animal form, then what's Natural Spell for? But I understand that casting while flying is an issue?


I also took a liking to change into snakes to go through small cracks and holes.
That's definitely an cool idea.


So so far we've got for straight up combat: Dire Lion (probably the best all round?), Brown Bear (grapple), Rhino (charge), Dire Bat (flight, AC, casting), Eagle (less conspicuous flight during day time), Giant Octopus (anything in water), Snakes (narrow holes). Anything else?

[Ketiara]

You've already mentioned the Dire Bat, but one more benefit of that form is that has a fly speed and can hover, which means you can cast spells with a casting duration of 1 round like Summon Nature's Ally while in flight.

I also took a liking to change into snakes to go through small cracks and holes.

Well untill lvl 11 you wont be able to turn into tiny size... Diminutive size is an epic feat.

Desmondu hunting bat (MMII p.66) > dire bat imo! The desmondu has trip, its medium size has better dex = better at ranged touch spells if needed

[Deophaun]

Wait, so when I use Wild Shape, I can't simply use the stats that the animal has, but I have to deconstruct the stats and figure out where everything comes from? That's insane.
Annoying, yes. But do it once, and it's done. And eventually you will know the patterns and see when something is off (claws are always 1d4 for medium, 1d6 for large, etc. So, when something deviates, start looking for the reason.)

Are there any other things I don't get in Wild Shape? I'm already aware of extraordinary (non-attack) abilities.
Special senses, like darkvision or scent, are the ones most people assume are included but actually aren't.

What does Enhance Wild Shape do? I don't think that's core, is it?
Enhance wild shape gives you all those EX abilities you thought/wished you could have, including senses and bonus feats. It is, sadly, not core, but found in the Spell Compendium.

So as a human druid, I can take the Improved Natural Attack feat and get bonus damage in animal form? That sounds pretty cool. (But I don't get many feats, so I'm not sure it's actually worth it.)
Druids are fortunate in that they don't need many feats, so taking Improved Natural Attack is not that big of a risk. Are there better choices? Sure. It's not a must-have feat. But you aren't going to mess up a druid by taking it.

I had no idea that was an issue at all. It's quite possible we've been ignoring the flying rules completely so far.
If your form has a fly speed with a maneuverability of average or worse, then you need to continue moving to stay airborne, or you stall, which means you fall out of the sky and have to make a DC 20 Reflex save to regain control. Also, the DMG has rules for how much movement climbing and diving requires, as well as turn radii. Flying is complicated (and errataed, so check that out, too). If you can get perfect maneuverability while flying, do so, as then you basically eliminate the rules.

But yes, with Natural Spell, you can cast spells regardless of your wild shape form.

[ksbsnowowl]

Dire Lion + Girallon's Blessing (Spell Compendium) = charge for 7 attacks + Rend!

[mcv]

Annoying, yes. But do it once, and it's done. And eventually you will know the patterns and see when something is off (claws are always 1d4 for medium, 1d6 for large, etc. So, when something deviates, start looking for the reason.)
My DM has ruled that Improved Natural Attack means that the standard form of that animal has bigger claws, teeth, etc, and since I change into the standard form of that animal, I get them with Wild Shape.


Special senses, like darkvision or scent, are the ones most people assume are included but actually aren't.
I mentioned this to my DM, and he said I get them anyway, because it makes that I can use the senses of the animal I turned into. He considers this common sense, and I'm not complaining. Although in particular cases he might rule that they do require extra training that I don't have, like echo location. Although when I turned into a Die Bat, he had no problem with me finding an invisible spellcaster.


Enhance wild shape gives you all those EX abilities you thought/wished you could have, including senses and bonus feats. It is, sadly, not core, but found in the Spell Compendium.
I guess my DM has basically given me Enhanced Wild Shape for free, then.


If your form has a fly speed with a maneuverability of average or worse, then you need to continue moving to stay airborne, or you stall, which means you fall out of the sky and have to make a DC 20 Reflex save to regain control. Also, the DMG has rules for how much movement climbing and diving requires, as well as turn radii. Flying is complicated (and errataed, so check that out, too). If you can get perfect maneuverability while flying, do so, as then you basically eliminate the rules.
I don't think we've ever done anything with this. My eagle has always just hung in the air somewhere. Basically my DM is ignoring some rule complications that he finds unnecessary, and I'm benefitting from that.

We also seem to be playing with Dire Wolves and other large quadrupeds only taking up two squares, which I think should be 4. Which means I couldn't have had 3 Dire Wolves attack a single guy next to a wall last session.

He did point out that I should be using my own BAB instead of the BAB of the animal, so I was reducing my own chances to hit there.

We just reached level 9, by the way. I don't think that makes any new interesting Wild Shape forms available for me, does it?

I could really use an app where I can just enter my level and it spews out a list of all the animals I can turn into, complete with the stats corrected for my level. Does something like that exist?

[Venger]

My DM has ruled that Improved Natural Attack means that the standard form of that animal has bigger claws, teeth, etc, and since I change into the standard form of that animal, I get them with Wild Shape.


I mentioned this to my DM, and he said I get them anyway, because it makes that I can use the senses of the animal I turned into. He considers this common sense, and I'm not complaining. Although in particular cases he might rule that they do require extra training that I don't have, like echo location. Although when I turned into a Die Bat, he had no problem with me finding an invisible spellcaster.


I guess my DM has basically given me Enhanced Wild Shape for free, then.


I don't think we've ever done anything with this. My eagle has always just hung in the air somewhere. Basically my DM is ignoring some rule complications that he finds unnecessary, and I'm benefitting from that.

We also seem to be playing with Dire Wolves and other large quadrupeds only taking up two squares, which I think should be 4. Which means I couldn't have had 3 Dire Wolves attack a single guy next to a wall last session.

He did point out that I should be using my own BAB instead of the BAB of the animal, so I was reducing my own chances to hit there.

We just reached level 9, by the way. I don't think that makes any new interesting Wild Shape forms available for me, does it?

I could really use an app where I can just enter my level and it spews out a list of all the animals I can turn into, complete with the stats corrected for my level. Does something like that exist?

well, if you're just going to roll straight druid and just have animal/plant shape, free enhance wild shape isn't exactly gamebreaking. you'll be able to enjoy scent, darkvision, etc.

remember that racial skill bonuses and feats are ex SQs, so if you turn into a leopard, you get bonuses to hide in grassy areas, if you turn into a snake, you gain +8 to climb and can take 10 when rushed/threatened, etc.

ignoring the flight rules is not especially uncommon, as they do involve a great deal of math, just beware that it cuts both ways when flying enemies start becoming the norm rather than the exception (which happens around level 9)

depending on the monster, some large creatures are 10 feet long but only 5 wide. so RAW, you're fine to have 3 dire wolves basing one medium sized target.

level 9 opens up the ankylosaurus (which you've mentioned isn't an option because of reasons. see if you can dig for fossils, make a nature roll, etc. worst thing that happens is your DM says no) orca, and most importantly, legendary eagle.

special powers wise, he's kind of boring, but he's got a 100 foot movement speed (average) and an absolutely stupid 30 dex. if you ever need to blast away at an enemy with rays, this is the form you want

[Pancritic]

depending on the monster, some large creatures are 10 feet long but only 5 wide. so RAW, you're fine to have 3 dire wolves basing one medium sized target.
IIRC, this was the case in 3.0, but after 3.5 all larger-than-medium-size creatures became squares, so it's a bit edition-dependent.

[mcv]

IIRC, this was the case in 3.0, but after 3.5 all larger-than-medium-size creatures became squares, so it's a bit edition-dependent.

Could it be that my DM originally used 3.0, and that's why I'm using rectangular Dire Wolves now?

I'll suggest upgrading them to squares.


level 9 opens up the ankylosaurus (which you've mentioned isn't an option because of reasons. see if you can dig for fossils, make a nature roll, etc. worst thing that happens is your DM says no) orca, and most importantly, legendary eagle.

I don't see a Legendary Eagle anywhere in the SRD. I do see a Giant Eagle, but it's a magical beast rather than an animal. I don't think I can turn into those, can I?

[ksbsnowowl]

I don't see a Legendary Eagle anywhere in the SRD. I do see a Giant Eagle, but it's a magical beast rather than an animal. I don't think I can turn into those, can I?

Legendary Eagles are from the MM2. Your base AC in that form would be 25 (it is a 12 HD eagle, so he was mistaken that it becomes available for wildshape at 9th level).

I think they might also be in the Epic Level Handbook... nope, only Legendary Bears and Tigers.

[hamishspence]

MM2 has a large number of dire animals (and a free online 3.5 update).

Races of Stone has Dire Eagles (Large) Races of the Wild has Dire Hawks (Medium) and the various environment books also have both prehistoric animals and dire animals (Stormwrack, Frostburn, Sandstorm),

[Deepbluediver]

Y'know, most people seem to forget that the animal category also includes dino-

Preferably focus on core, 8 HD or less, and non-dinosaurs (since I'm not in a prehistoric setting)

awww.....killjoy.



Anywho, if you are running short of options or just want some new shapes because the old ones get boring, I like the D&D monster finder, which allows you to search by creature type.

See here (http://monsterfinder.dndrunde.de/results.php?id=3225427658&skip=0&order=) for a list of ALL the animal-typed creatures. (I think it has a few small errors, but overall it's pretty good.

[mcv]

Y'know, most people seem to forget that the animal category also includes dino-


awww.....killjoy.
The DM never explicitly banned them, but we're playing in ancient Greece, so I'm assuming dinosaurs have been extinct for millions of years. I think it'd be lame to introduce them just because there happen to be stats for them.


Anywho, if you are running short of options or just want some new shapes because the old ones get boring, I like the D&D monster finder, which allows you to search by creature type.
So far, they're not boring yet. I still haven't turned into a Dire Lion, and my stint as a Giant Octopus was way too short. But yeah, by limiting myself to core SRD non-dinosaurs, I admit I don't have the usual wealth of options druids have.

I don't think it's really a problem, though. I'm effective enough as it is, and even turning into a basic eagle never gets old.


See here (http://monsterfinder.dndrunde.de/results.php?id=3225427658&skip=0&order=) for a list of ALL the animal-typed creatures. (I think it has a few small errors, but overall it's pretty good.
Thanks. Would be nice if that site allowed you to search by HD.

[ksbsnowowl]

I still haven't turned into a Dire Lion...
I'm telling you, Dire Lion plus Girallon's Blessing (SpC). Put the party fighter to shame...

I'm running a 13th level Gestalt game. My Druid//Sorcerer does this, and was making the Barbarian jealous.

[mcv]

I'm telling you, Dire Lion plus Girallon's Blessing (SpC). Put the party fighter to shame...
It's not my intention to put anyone to shame. And I don't have SpC. It's not part of the SRD, is it?

[ksbsnowowl]

It's not my intention to put anyone to shame. And I don't have SpC. It's not part of the SRD, is it?

Nope. If there is any one book a Druid player should try to pick up, it's the Spell Compendium. They are reprinting it; should be out in the next month or two.

http://www.amazon.com/3-5-Premium-Spell-Compendium-Accessory/dp/0786964480/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1348062234&sr=1-1

And I merely meant you would be effective. Perhaps more effective than the fighter.