What would you do in this situation?

[Talakeal]

You are a member of a party of adventurers who is taking shelter from a storm in a small town. During the night the town is attacked by a large group of creatures who resemble a cross between ghouls or zombies although they are not actually undead. They attack mindlessly, and anyone bitten will become like them, indeed most of these creatures are former residents of the town.

You defend the village from the creatures and in the morning ask for their origin. No one knows where they came from originally and they have been periodically attacking the village for several months. When asking around for any legends that might explain them a very old woman shares a story which her grandmother had told her when she was a child:

"Long ago on the great inland sea to the north two fisherman caught a strange golden fish. The fish spoke and begged them to release it, and said it would give them a blessing for their kindness. One wanted to throw it back, but the other man said it was foolish, for his family was poor and hungry. They quarreled over the fish, until they came to blows, and the man who wanted to eat the fish ended up knocking his partner overboard where he drowned. The man killed the golden fish and brought it home, but when he and his family ate of it they found no relief from their hunger. Indeed, their hunger only grew stronger, and they found that they could not be satisfied except by the flesh of their own kind. Eventually the fisherman's family would, one by one, kill and eat every other person in the small village where they lived. Their descendants still live there to this day, and any who go to the sea must beware of the cannibals."

The party decides it is as good a lead on any and heads out to the old inland sea, several days journey north of the village. When they get there they find no sea, but instead a desert of fine white sand.

In the middle of the desert you find an ancient ship wreck. Within are dozens of creatures that may once have been men, emaciated and deformed, with greenish grey skin and eyes that glow red in the dark. Most are very old and are chained to the ship, although some are younger, even children, and left free to scuttle about.

They do not attack, but you do not approach close. When spoken to, the creatures say that they were once galley slaves on this vessel, but when the ship sank their souls were bound to it. They believe themselves dead and that the desert they live in to be hell. They are afraid to leave the ship, and most have never even tried to break the rusted chains that bind them. They claim to have been here for many years.

When you ask how they survive, they tell you that their god keeps them alive and feeds them. When pressed about the nature of this god they say that it cannot be explained, only experienced. They invite you to come into the hold and take communion with them.

What do you do?

[Narren]

Kill them and take their stuff?

[Hyena]

Scry to see if listening to them is a good idea. Then act accordingly.

[randomhero00]

Run like h*ll.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Seems like a case of declining and probably running...it's built up to be obviously dangerous, and not enough effort has been made to make me think it might be worth the risk. I'd hazard it as a very obvious trap.

The creatures don't really seem sympathetic enough for me to actually believe, especially at the risk of being eaten.

[Berenger]

Kill it with fire twice over.

[hymer]

Consider calling in sick next session?

I prefer to err on the side of caution. This is something you can always return to and deal with later. I'd leave it all be for now and look for more clues.

[Re'ozul]

Depends on level and party composition.

If clairaudience/clairvoyance is available, use that in the night to see whats going on. Sense motive might help on the creatures, as will keeping lookout wether this 'God' is someone physical coming to the ship.

If things seem to be bad, leave. DON'T try to burn them or the ship. Most likely it will simply cause them to get loose, which no one wants.

[OverdrivePrime]

Wow, I love the setup and background story. As a player, I'd be hooked into investigating. But obvious trap is (intentionally?) obvious, and my characters tend not to subscribe to the god of the week club.

I'd decline, and research a way to free these people from their torment. Obviously death won't work to free them from their curse, but there must be something else... and as a player, I'd be highly suspicious of whatever is calling itself their god. Sounds like a demon at work... and a demon can be beaten.

[TuggyNE]

Flame strike, earthquake, and greater teleport. I have no intention of sticking around that place! :smalleek:

[Anxe]

Well my current character is a priest. Normally he'd slay undead, abominations that they are. However, the involvement of the gods changes that. I'd guess that the gods are punishing these people for some transgression in their past. In other mythical examples, Heracles frees such people and doesn't catch any flak for it. Thus, I'll free the people and see if they turn back into normal people.

EDIT: Given the level of disagreement among forum members already, I'd say half the fun of this encounter is the moral ambiguity and creepiness. I like it!

[hewhosaysfish]

I would keep asking questions. All the questions until either I was satisfied or these guys got fed up with me.

General points:
1) What were they afraid to break the chains and leave?
2) Why are the children not chained?
3) Where did the children come from anyway? Were they on the ship when it sank? Where they *born* in this hell?
4) Why do they think they are damned to hell? Did their god explain things to them? Do they remember when they were alive? Is there a specific sin they were damned for?

About this god:
5) Does he visit them, appear before them? If so, does this happen at regular intervals? Can't we just wait for him? If not, is he immaterial, omnipresent? Is he always with them? Is he here now, except that outsiders can't perceive him?
6) Did they worship this god before they died to did he only appear to them after they "died"?
7) Was this the god the one who condemned them to this hell, or a different one?
8) Why does this god keeping them sustained? Is it an act of charity? Is it in exchange for worship (or some other service)? Is it to extend their punishment?
9) Wait, why do they need their god to sustain them if they're already dead? Is it to keep them from suffering the pain of starvation, because they all look pretty thin?
10) Is their god going to be mad at me for asking all these questions?

If they anwer all the above questions by repeating "our god cannot be explained":
11) What would "communion" require me to do (or others to do to me)?
12) Would "communion" make me like them? Twisted, with glowing eyes? Would I be bound to stay with the ship? And/or to obey this god? Would I be taking some sort of vow, implicitly or explicitly?
13) Does communion have to take place *inside* the boat? Is there something special in the boat which is required? Can I take a quick peek before I decide? Could you guys stand out of convenient murdering-and-eating-me distance while I take a peek?
14) How did you learn the necessary rites of communion? Did their god teach them? How?

[DigoDragon]

I'd be curious enough to see about capturing one in a container, breaking the chain, and taking it away from the desert to study.
...for science.

[Talakeal]

Excellent questions Fish. I will answer them all very soon once I have seen a few more people's initial reactions.

[Squark]

Very interesting scenario. I'd say this is definately the sort of thing you want more information on, although if you do go in to take communion, be on the lookout for being used as the meal for it...

[NichG]

The fact that the oldest are chained but the young are running free suggests either a complex situation with an internal split, or more likely that the young are those who were converted into this kind of being but came in from outside somehow.

So I'd politely refuse and offer to break chains and give succor to those who wish for a chance to escape what they see as a hell. I'd also ask directly about the fish legend, since if they say 'er, yeah, thats it alright' then that saves a lot of skulking around. Those who accepted having their chains broken I'd personally escort to civilization where I could more carefully see what was going on with them and the nature of their state. Most likely thing is looking to be divine curse, which is rough, but there's always a chance its environmental or something more mundane that could be cured. If I got no takers, or more attempts to get me to join the communion I'd simply leave and sneak back/have someone sneak back at a later date to observe their movements - if they do their communion at all without external visitors, for example.

If they still do the communion I'd observe secretly/have someone stealthier than me observe secretly. This is likely the point where everything falls apart, so this'd be done either with a disposable/easily retrievable method of observation (arcane eye, bird familiar, etc) or it'd be done with the rest of the party ready to act at need. Following this extra information a plan of action could be put together if its something we needed to intervene in, or a second meeting under less paranoid auspices could occur.

I'm guessing that the communion likely involves representations of this magic fish that started it all in the tale. The likely twist is that the one who was killed defending the fish got some kind of blessing as much as the others got a curse, and so these people might be those who are being blessed by the fish, while the ones that attacked the village are those cursed by the fish.

[Slipperychicken]

Kill them and take their stuff?

Seconded. They're cannibalistic cultist-zombies. Not good people. Their God is not a true god. Not one worthy of your respect anyway.

DO NOT EAT ANYTHING. DO NOT PRAY WITH THEM. DO NOT TOUCH THEM. Ask for a cure, and if they refuse, kill them. Make a Bluff roll to claim you're liberating them from Hell by killing them, just in case they respawn.


When it comes down to it, they are chained to the ship. Range them to death like the filthy dogs they are (kids shouldn't be much trouble. They should have godawful stats and go down in 1-3 shots). Distance should protect you from the disease. If you hear the God awakening, run like hell and have the archer take pot-shots at it till it stops chasing. Maybe you can get some ranged support from the town to barrage them harder.

When looting their stuff, try not to touch or look at their idols directly. They are tainted with scary cultist-stuff which you don't want to get all over your delicate mind. Use tongs and thick lead-lined bags. Try not to get too close to the chains when they're undone -they might animate and grab you.

[Jay R]

Set the ship on fire, of course.

:belkar:It's as true today as when I started adventuring. "When in doubt, set something on fire." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html)

[Slipperychicken]

Set the ship on fire, of course.


Last resort. It's notoriously difficult to recover loot and bodies from rubble.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Honestly, this "trap" seems just a bit too obvious.

Does your DM have a history of laying obvious traps or subverting tropes? If the former, then the advice so far seems pretty good (and obvious) except maybe the burn 'em all suggestions.

If the latter however, I'd call a quick huddle with the party and suggest this, "Okay guys, this rather obviously seems like a hidden demon or devil cult that's duped these poor schlubs into being 'damned' while they're still alive. You all decline their offer and leave. I'll go along with 'em and see what's what, then bug-out if things look dicey. Cleric, get me a break-enchantment, remove disease, and remove curse ready first thing tommorrow; just in case. Maybe a raise dead if things go really bad."

[Jay R]

"Cleric, get me a break-enchantment, remove disease, and remove curse ready first thing tommorrow; just in case. Maybe a raise dead if things go really bad."

You're assuming awfully high levels. This seems like a scenario for 2nd-4th levels for me.

By the time they have the resources you're describing, it's too easy to avoid the dangers - as you have demonstrated.

[geeky_monkey]

Considering I usually play barbarians with int/wis as dump stats I'd kill all the 'zombies', loot their stuff, burn the ship to the ground (turning it into a huge funeral pyre) and get the heck out of there before their god turned up.

And then I'd never think of them again.

[HorseCover]

I would detect evil, and if that didn't come back positive, I'd probably have to talk it out a little more. There doesn't seem to be an immediate threat, but I wouldn't go in to commune. Hopefully, I will observe something that gives me some direction, because communing with gods that would allow people to "live" like that eternally seems like a bad idea, but if there is a chance to help them in some way, I would want to stay.

I think, if you are the DM, that is the kind of indecision you're going to get from your players. Otherwise, I love this adventure so far.

[Talakeal]

Ok, answers.

1) What were they afraid to break the chains and leave?

This is hell. They are damned. Who knows what danger awaits in the world beyond? It might be endless desert populated by demons, and without the protection of their god active torture or oblivion might await them.


2) Why are the children not chained?

They were born here to chained parents.

3) Where did the children come from anyway? Were they on the ship when it sank? Where they *born* in this hell?

See above.

4) Why do they think they are damned to hell? Did their god explain things to them? Do they remember when they were alive? Is there a specific sin they were damned for?

They vaguely remember life, but it was long ago. Each is damned for various sins, they were after all, prisoners, guilty of crimes which warranted incarceration on a slave galley. Many have darker secrets that never came to light.

5) Does he visit them, appear before them? If so, does this happen at regular intervals? Can't we just wait for him? If not, is he immaterial, omnipresent? Is he always with them? Is he here now, except that outsiders can't perceive him?

He is not here now, but is always close. His visits are reliable but unpredictable.

6) Did they worship this god before they died to did he only appear to them after they "died"?

All the sailors on the sea worshipped the god, it was he who made the wind blow and guided the fish, it would have been folly to do otherwise.

7) Was this the god the one who condemned them to this hell, or a different one?

No, only the Goddess (monotheistic religion of the Empire this land was a part of) has the powers of damnation and salvation, and she is too distant to care for such lost souls as them.

8) Why does this god keeping them sustained? Is it an act of charity? Is it in exchange for worship (or some other service)? Is it to extend their punishment?

It is the divine contract. Mortals worship him and he blesses mortals. That is how it has always been. Who can say why?

9) Wait, why do they need their god to sustain them if they're already dead? Is it to keep them from suffering the pain of starvation, because they all look pretty thin?

He minimizes their suffering, yes. And he keeps them safe from a worse fate.

10) Is their god going to be mad at me for asking all these questions?

Perhaps, he can be rather unpredictable.

11) What would "communion" require me to do (or others to do to me)?

Eat of the god's flesh and drink of his blood.

12) Would "communion" make me like them? Twisted, with glowing eyes? Would I be bound to stay with the ship? And/or to obey this god? Would I be taking some sort of vow, implicitly or explicitly?

Ideally yes. It is doubtful you would want to leave after having tasted of such bliss, especially to go back out into the desert. But then again, they could not force you to stay.

13) Does communion have to take place *inside* the boat? Is there something special in the boat which is required? Can I take a quick peek before I decide? Could you guys stand out of convenient murdering-and-eating-me distance while I take a peek?

Most are chained in place, and besides it is unlikely the god would allow communion to take place at a distance.

14) How did you learn the necessary rites of communion? Did their god teach them? How?

Yes, the god taught them. It is a rather simple rite.

[Slipperychicken]

Q 15) Does they bleed? If it bleeds, we can kill it.

[Kol Korran]

Ok, my opinion will probably be the minority, but here goes. I just love the set up, the scene and the mystery! It seems too obvious a trap to actually be a trap, but that doesn't mmatter- I'm fascinated, and I want to know more!

In short I will play it so that my character will go in. Sure, I will be wary and ready to bolt and I'll ask many questions (mostly to satiate my curiosity), but I have a feeling that the only way to get to the bottom of this will be going to the inside of the ship.

Sure. I can probably evade the ship, kill all from a distance, burn the ship or some other safe/ various solution... but that will be boohooing! I choose for more interesting story despite of danger, if the scene is cool enough. (And this one is!)

probably going to steal the idea and adapt it, if I may... :smallwink:

[Jay R]

The serious answer is that these people are the cult-prisoners of some horrific undead, and the goal of any Good party is to rescue them and educate them.

[KillianHawkeye]

Burn it to the ground. Don't look back.

[Tengu_temp]

Watch the ceremony, but politely refuse to eat or drink anything they give you. Prepare for a fight or escape if things get hairy.

The number of "kill it with fire" or "run away and don't look back" responses makes me scratch my head. Really, you don't want to even try finding out what's going on here? Where's your curiosity? What's the point of playing RPGs if you refuse to follow every interesting plot hook?

[Squark]

Probably buried with their last five characters who died following said curiosity?:smallwink:

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I dunno. Drink, probably.

[Tengu_temp]

Probably buried with their last five characters who died following said curiosity?:smallwink:

Which is why you also have to be smart about it. And I'd say that a DM who punishes curiosity and initiative with unbeatable traps and ambushes is not a good DM.

[Guizonde]

let's see... tough situation, ambiguous outcomes, moderate to low chances of survival? detect evil, pray using my phylactery of the devout (or whatever it's really called), bend the 4th wall if necessary, use my skill ranks in mysteries and religion, and based on my research determine whether i heal or burn.
what i don't intend to do: fall into a trap unprepared, eat/drink/consume anything given, aid undead.

i am curious about the mystery, but i'll be damned if i'm caught with my pants down!

edit: after thinking this through:

"yeah, you guys just stay chained here, i'll be right back. i've got uh... an otter to floss"

run away, and REALLY research the subject, determining the god's alignment,pulling ranks in history and everything. if it's as bad as i think, call up a real church-militant temple and launch a crusade, with a lot of zealots between me and the ship. (sucks for xp, but this seems like a pc-crippler, not just pc-killer, and without being callous, i'd prefer it was npcs crippled rather than my party)

[TuggyNE]

The number of "kill it with fire" or "run away and don't look back" responses makes me scratch my head. Really, you don't want to even try finding out what's going on here? Where's your curiosity? What's the point of playing RPGs if you refuse to follow every interesting plot hook?

"My curiosity died under mysterious circumstances. My sense of self-preservation found the body, but assures me it had an air-tight alibi."

[Slipperychicken]

The number of "kill it with fire" or "run away and don't look back" responses makes me scratch my head. Really, you don't want to even try finding out what's going on here? Where's your curiosity? What's the point of playing RPGs if you refuse to follow every interesting plot hook?

OP asked us what we would do if we were in that situation. As though we were actual mortal people standing in front of this hell-boat in a desert, and not grown men lounging around playing an overly-complicated game of pretend. For the character, it doesn't all end when they get bored; these choices can have extreme consequences.


Actually roleplaying your character helps understand that doing communion with these people is about as safe as a seven-year-old getting in the old guy's unmarked van for a dubious promise of candy. Sure, it could be a fun way to score some candy, but you could also find yourself tied up in someone's basement being subjected to the desires of disgusting lecherous men for a decade or two, spending every moment begging for death. And it doesn't just "fade to black" for the character, either -they have to live through every day of such a terrifying and horrible fate.

[qwertyu63]

For an answer, I'm in the "Burn it with fire and holy water" group, but I have to respond to this:


"My curiosity died under mysterious circumstances. My sense of self-preservation found the body, but assures me it had an air-tight alibi."

I think I just found a new line for my sig. Do you mind?

[TuggyNE]

I think I just found a new line for my sig. Do you mind?

Not at all, although I believe it's just a paraphrase (or even quote) of something from Schlock Mercenary. :smallwink:

… Howard Tayler is a genius.

[geeky_monkey]

What's the point of playing RPGs if you refuse to follow every interesting plot hook?

Loot and XP!

[hymer]

So, OP, what was the deal? Why did you want to hear our reactions, and what's with the setup?

[Kelb_Panthera]

You're assuming awfully high levels. This seems like a scenario for 2nd-4th levels for me.

By the time they have the resources you're describing, it's too easy to avoid the dangers - as you have demonstrated.

Only mid-level really. Remove curse and remove disease are only third level, raise dead is 4th and break-enchantment is the strongest at 5th.

I don't really see this scenario, or most others, as being level dependent. Cursed people serving some sort of hidden cult definitely works at any level. The level of the scenario would be defined by the leader of the group and/or the power he calls on.

If the "god" is a high-CR demon or devil and he arives personally to give the communion, I've probably just doomed my character.

If he's just some 3rd level adept schlub or even just an expert then I only have to worry about the nature of the communion itself and how the people will react to my reactions.

Just because they're chained to the walls by rusty chains doesn't mean they're push-overs. They think they deserve it so they don't try to free themselves. It's entirely within the realm of possibility that they could snap those chains, and my character's neck, like so much dry-rotted twine.

[Talakeal]

So, OP, what was the deal? Why did you want to hear our reactions, and what's with the setup?

I didn't say originally because I wanted to get an unbiased sampling of people's reactions before I explained the set up.

I suppose that has happened, so I can give a bit more info:

This was an encounter which occurred during the last session I ran for my group. Their decision was, as follows:

Have the melee characters surround the boat.
Have the sorceress bombard the boat with fireballs until it was in flames and burn the inhabitants alive.
If anyone runs out the melee characters will cut them down.

I told them that the only runners are small children and infants. That did not change their actions.

I was surprised by this plan as it was the players who are normally the least "hack and slash" who came up with it. After the session I told them I was surprised by their brutality, and was told:

"They were obviously evil undead, and undead have no right to exist."

So I wanted to see if that was the consensus from the community, does this encounter lead to the conclusion that they are evil undead with no right to exist?

[The Glyphstone]

I assume that 'abandon these psychos and get a group that's not riddled with insanity and sociopathy' has not become an option yet? I honestly haven't even read the thread in detail yet (doing that now). And now I have, and my opinion remains the same, though this is actually reasonable by the standards of what I remember of their usual behavior.

[hymer]

Seems to me a lot of people in this thread went the 'kill-it-with-fire' route, so it shouldn't be considered entirely unusual, I guess.
But don't forget things like the players being in certain moods, which can affect their decision hugely. If they were getting tired, felt a little confused, and were spoiling for a fight, it's no wonder they went about it this way. :smallsmile:

Edit: Undead was definitely one of the things that went through my mind reading it - long 'lives', ought to be dead from the original disaster, need strange ritual to remain alive, bound to one location, sad past. They sound a lot like ghosts of some sort. But I certainly wouldn't feel confident enough to advocate burning them on principle unless I was really fed up with them. :smallwink:

[Sebastrd]

I think you have to consider the metagame implications of the players' actions. You basically presented them with a BS scenario that was an obvious trap but with no way to confirm that without falling into said trap. It was definitely interesting and thought provoking, but ultimately looked like nothing more than a way for the DM to say, "Gotcha!"

Instead, the players basically said, "FU", and burned your scenario to the ground. I don't think it implies anything about their morality.

[Talakeal]

I think you have to consider the metagame implications of the players' actions. You basically presented them with a BS scenario that was an obvious trap but with no way to confirm that without falling into said trap. It was definitely interesting and thought provoking, but ultimately looked like nothing more than a way for the DM to say, "Gotcha!"

Instead, the players basically said, "FU", and burned your scenario to the ground. I don't think it implies anything about their morality.

Yes, it was an obvious trap. That wasn't the point. I didn't expect the players to actually go in and take communion with them, especially without precautions. However, there were an infinite number of options, and I certainly expected more investigation before coming to a conclusion.

It isn't like this was a narrow hallway with a macguffin ahead and a locked door behind, this was literally one object in the middle of an open desert.

Besides, if we assume their actions were an 'FU' to the DM rather than an attempt to role-play their characters morality that is even worse. That is meta gaming at best, and more likely falls into the category of willful game disruption just for the sake of being a jerk.

[Hopeless]

Flood the area, if the source of the curse is the supposed golden fish then something drained the water, introduce enough water and find out where it goes and thats probably your answer...

[Kelb_Panthera]

The presumption that these folk were undead is a bit disturbing. That's really easy to check, especially if there's a cleric in the party. Spontaneously convert an orison into cure minor wounds and touch one of them. If he's undead he takes a point of damage that he simply deals with since he's in hell to be punished anyway. If he's alive then it either heals a point of damage or does nothing if the target's hp's are already full.

Were they undead? What was the real deal anyway?

[The Glyphstone]

Besides, if we assume their actions were an 'FU' to the DM rather than an attempt to role-play their characters morality that is even worse. That is meta gaming at best, and more likely falls into the category of willful game disruption just for the sake of being a jerk.

So, 100% standard for these people if they're anything like the stories you used to post?

[Talakeal]

So, 100% standard for these people if they're anything like the stories you used to post?

Surprisingly, no. Metagaming isn't a huge issue for me honestly, and although people often do get too worked up at my games they normally don't actively try and destroy the game that I can tell.


Were they undead? What was the real deal anyway?


Patience. All will be revealed soon.

[holywhippet]

Detect undead is also a first level cleric spell. I'd also consider a detect magic spell if you have enough spellcraft ranks to try and work out any enchantment. Or if the party is of high enough level try casting analyze dweomer.

What I don't quite get is how mobile are the people chained up? Can they really get inside of the ship themselves to perform whatever ritual?

I'd cast some protection spells before proceeding like protection from evil and protection from chaos before going inside. Don't forget freedom of movement which counters grappling also.

I'd definetly try some intelligence gathering spells like augury and contact other plane if you have a high enough level.

[The Glyphstone]

Surprisingly, no. Metagaming isn't a huge issue for me honestly, and although people often do get too worked up at my games they normally don't actively try and destroy the game that I can tell.




Patience. All will be revealed soon.

Wait, aren't these the same people who replied to the offer of a goddess-avatar's offer to rest and recover at her shrine oasis by insulting and assaulting her and burning down the entire place?

[Talakeal]

Wait, aren't these the same people who replied to the offer of a goddess-avatar's offer to rest and recover at her shrine oasis by insulting and assaulting her and burning down the entire place?

One of the players was the same, although he wasn't the one who came up with the plan in this instance.

Maybe I am just naive, but I don't think things like that are necessarily lashing out at me as a GM, but they are simply lashing out in character because they don't like being told what to do.

[Mono Vertigo]

To be honest, in a roleplay game, I would have surely opted to kill them, too. (That is, if a way to cure them did not make itself known with a little research.)
But not because they're undead or "obviously evil", only because their existence is miserable, they're already qualifying it as hellish, and they don't really have any identity left. Definite, clean-cut, as painless as possible death sounds like the best thing we could reasonably hope for them. So, no fireballs flying everywhere.
As for the children, well, I'd have tried to catch them and make sure they were not a danger. Then, I would have realized I just killed their parents in front of them and that this is not helping at all.
(Hey, I'm trying to be completely realist here.)

[denthor]

Did they live under the sea as it was turning to desert?

Do they know anything about the gold fish?

Can you help them to over come there dark pasts?

[Slipperychicken]

"They were obviously evil undead, and undead have no right to exist."

So I wanted to see if that was the consensus from the community, does this encounter lead to the conclusion that they are evil undead with no right to exist?

To be fair, that's the conclusion which D&D morality draws you toward, as a scanty rationalization for murdering countless people in cold blood and stripping the valuables from their still-warm bodies like you're some kind of insane kleptomaniac vulture.

[holywhippet]

The DM can turn it against them though. One of my former DM's told me about a group he had who stole from a temple. Rather than incurring fiery, instant death from above he started off subtle. Monster encounter rates slowly started to increase in frequency and difficulty, items would mysteriously go missing from their ownership etc. It took the players some time to realise they had ticked off a God and their punishment would be slow and painful unless they atoned somehow.

[Slipperychicken]

The DM can turn it against them though. One of my former DM's told me about a group he had who stole from a temple. Rather than incurring fiery, instant death from above he started off subtle. Monster encounter rates slowly started to increase in frequency and difficulty, items would mysteriously go missing from their ownership etc. It took the players some time to realise they had ticked off a God passive-aggressive insane DM and their punishment would be slow and painful unless they atoned somehow immediately ditched him.

FTFY. wordwordswords

[Talakeal]

FTFY. wordwordswords

If you are being serious you sound a lot like one of my players. "What? Consequences? To MY actions? Why I never! Killer DM I say!"

[Slipperychicken]

If you are being serious you sound a lot like one of my players. "What? Consequences? To MY actions? Why I never! Killer DM I say!"

Mostly the "items 'mysteriously' disappearing" part, which is a massive signal of awful DMing. If there's some way the PCs are made aware their misfortune resulted from the theft, or are somehow able to avoid it, that might be more reasonable.

I love consequences (especially harder encounters and police action. My current game could use some of those), but no-save-no-roll-no-explanation stealing the PCs stuff is inexcusable, much like non-interactive "cutscenes". The PCs should have some chance to thwart it.

[NichG]

If a deity wants to steal things from a PC, what exactly are the modes by which the party is going to stop that? I find that asking players to roll against impossible DCs is far more frustrating for them than just narrating the results.

I mean, a deity should have easy access to a source of Wish/Miracle, if not through their own build than via any of their higher level followers, Solars, etc. All it would take to steal an item without any real means of recourse would be to identify a moment when the item is no longer attended, and then Wish the item to the deity's side. For being a stickler for Line of Effect there are still many solutions that would likely be deity dependent (generally involving familiars, polymorphed solars, high-accuracy teleportation, etc).

Edit: I must be misremembering the familiar SDA thing, because I can't find it now that I look.

The problem isn't so much that the party did not get to roll against the scenario, its that the entire scenario doesn't really present itself as being caused by any specific set of PC actions. If the PCs take 8 sessions to figure out they're being punished, then they're not really learning from the consequence of their actions for that period of time. The longer the delay, the weaker the message.

[Guizonde]

to all people saying: "are these undead? burn them and see! cast heal and see if they suffer!"

here's some reading material (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/spell-lists---cleric)
and here's my RP-enhancing device! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/virtue)
since i've always got "virtue" prepared as one of my standard orisons (makes for great rp'ing, the cleric patting the shoulder of the warrior and gaining 1hp), if i'd have to get within 10 feet of one of the chained souls, i'd do that. improvise a prayer (possibly called pelor's litany of unending patience), and "bless" the soul with a finger's touch to the forehead. if the 1hp stings it, run. if it doesn't, back out of their reach in any case. is it next to useless? yes. however, a noble cleric blessed by his deity giving a quick jolt of vitality to a comrade in arms is a pretty cool ability to spin into the story, and even though i've got "stabilize" ready in any case, i'd rather not have them out of the fight. oh, and it's unlimited!

i don't think it's psycho dm'ing, and i think that the players were careful (sure, there's metagaming involved, but it's inescapable). i'm kinda disappointed that they didn't try to get to the bottom of the mystery, but that's just me.

[TuggyNE]

to all people saying: "are these undead? burn them and see! cast heal and see if they suffer!"

here's some reading material (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/spell-lists---cleric)
and here's my RP-enhancing device! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/virtue)
since i've always got "virtue" prepared as one of my standard orisons (makes for great rp'ing, the cleric patting the shoulder of the warrior and gaining 1hp), if i'd have to get within 10 feet of one of the chained souls, i'd do that. improvise a prayer (possibly called pelor's litany of unending patience), and "bless" the soul with a finger's touch to the forehead. if the 1hp stings it, run.

Virtue is 1 temporary HP. Undead do not react badly to temporary HP. So you can't actually test this without using spell slots, sorry.

[Slipperychicken]

Virtue is 1 temporary HP. Undead do not react badly to temporary HP. So you can't actually test this without using spell slots, sorry.

He's thinking of Cure Minor Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureMinorWounds.htm). Although that's 3.5, it would work as he describes.

In PF, he can just pop a Channel on them.

[Guizonde]

He's thinking of Cure Minor Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureMinorWounds.htm). Although that's 3.5, it would work as he describes.

In PF, he can just pop a Channel on them.

aw, and i thought i knew what i was talking about this time:smallfrown:

truth be told, i was thinking about virtue, i just didn't know that undead didn't react to temporary hp. but hey, i learned about cure minor wounds, so maaaaaaaybe i'll have a talk with the dm. would make sense rp-wise (not to mention act as a discreet "detect affable undead"):smallsmile:

[Phaederkiel]

to tell the truth, if my players would pull this stunt on my table, i'd have a god appear and try to protect his followers.

I think the "kill it with fire" solutions are suited for diablo 3, not for d&d. If I am presented with a riddle, I try to figure it out. They had fireballs, so they had someone cerebral enough to care about riddles.

Undead have no right to exist? I think I would hit the party cleric with a free necropolitan template. It is kinda a gain for him, and it will give him a good possibility for role-play. Unless the party kills him first.

Or i'd drop it on the party, but not on the cleric, 'cause he was protected by HIS god. Suddenly the ability to channel cure spells has diminished in value.


TLDR: I think for such a boring way to play you cannot be hard enough on them. you had a beautiful scenary murdered by WoW-mentality.

[Talakeal]

to tell the truth, if my players would pull this stunt on my table, i'd have a god appear and try to protect his followers.

I think the "kill it with fire" solutions are suited for diablo 3, not for d&d. If I am presented with a riddle, I try to figure it out. They had fireballs, so they had someone cerebral enough to care about riddles.

Undead have no right to exist? I think I would hit the party cleric with a free necropolitan template. It is kinda a gain for him, and it will give him a good possibility for role-play. Unless the party kills him first.

Or i'd drop it on the party, but not on the cleric, 'cause he was protected by HIS god. Suddenly the ability to channel cure spells has diminished in value.


TLDR: I think for such a boring way to play you cannot be hard enough on them. you had a beautiful scenary murdered by WoW-mentality.

It's funny you say these things.

The player with the fireballs was actually complaining that in changing from wizard to sorcerer their intelligence was merely average and they didn't like being forced to play an "idiot".

Also, the party priest is already a vampire. Take that for what it is worth.

[Guizonde]

Also, the party priest is already a vampire. Take that for what it is worth.

0.o what is this i don't even.

is it possible for an undead to channel positive energy?
if yes: test out the positive energy idea
if no: rebuke undead.
(and now to picture a raging undead cleric berating verbally a bunch of chained undead, much like a drill sergeant to his recruits :smallbiggrin:)

[Phaederkiel]

they have a vampire-cleric and kill innocent children 'cuz undead have no right to exist? The text before sounded not like you had an Evil Party.

So I'd say: they are awful players,
but I need to say: it is your fault, you let them be exactly that.


your storytelling seems to be good, nice ideas, beautiful scenario.
But you give your players too much leeway with really bad RP.

I would not even go killer on them. I'd simply say: sorry, but i will not dm for you lot anymore.

[Kelb_Panthera]

to tell the truth, if my players would pull this stunt on my table, i'd have a god appear and try to protect his followers.

I think the "kill it with fire" solutions are suited for diablo 3, not for d&d. If I am presented with a riddle, I try to figure it out. They had fireballs, so they had someone cerebral enough to care about riddles.

Undead have no right to exist? I think I would hit the party cleric with a free necropolitan template. It is kinda a gain for him, and it will give him a good possibility for role-play. Unless the party kills him first.

Or i'd drop it on the party, but not on the cleric, 'cause he was protected by HIS god. Suddenly the ability to channel cure spells has diminished in value.


TLDR: I think for such a boring way to play you cannot be hard enough on them. you had a beautiful scenary murdered by WoW-mentality.I'd like to think that I knew my players well enough that I would've had a contingency in case events played out that way. Even if I didn't I think direct deific intervention is more than a little extreme, especially given that it's almost certainly not a real god that their cult was dedicated to. Worst-case, I simply admit to the players, "I really didn't expect you guys to go that route. Why don't y'all go on a snack-run while I try and figure out how to salvage tonight's session."


It's funny you say these things.

The player with the fireballs was actually complaining that in changing from wizard to sorcerer their intelligence was merely average and they didn't like being forced to play an "idiot".

Also, the party priest is already a vampire. Take that for what it is worth.

I'm guessing the party's priest is hiding his undead nature?

If not, then they really had no excuse not to have him pretend to participate in the ritual. Whatever effect the communion has is almost certainly something he'd be immune to, nevermind the sheer hypocrisy of the party saying that undead have no right to exist when they knowingly travel with one.

Btw, the sorcerer's player failing to come to the conclusion that the obvious trap was too obvious suggests that his playing a sorcerer over a wizard was definitely the right choice.

[Talakeal]

They are not evil characters. The wost stated alignment in the party is the sorcrer who has a detached ends justifdy the means Varsuvius style personality.

The vampire is "reformed" and has taken up a monsatic life, and is careful to only food on willing victims and to never kill. It is more the dissonance of thinking undead can never be redeemed that puzzles me.

They didnt wreck my adventure. This was just a side encounter used for gaining information. I was just kind of surprised that the normally more level headed players in my group decided to go for such a bloodthirsty solution.

[Phaederkiel]

It is more the dissonance of thinking undead can never be redeemed that puzzles me.


this is just what i would call awful playing.
And it seems that your players have this problem repeatedly. Destroying a helpful goddes friendly offer, 'cuz they did not like doing what they were told?
"repercussions for my actions?"

It seems to me that you need to get some serious consequenses going.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think the "kill it with fire" solutions are suited for diablo 3, not for d&d. If I am presented with a riddle, I try to figure it out. They had fireballs, so they had someone cerebral enough to care about riddles.

Alexander the Great, despite his flaws (he must've been min-maxed), was one of the most brilliant people to ever live. Saying that just busting down the door rather than trying to solve the riddle on it is stupid is like saying that cutting the Gordian Knot is stupid.

And this is the great thing about TTRPGs. In a CRPG, you might be forced to solve the riddle, for plot purposes (and then the game goes on that "Video Game Logic" thing). In a TTRPG, you have the freedom to solve it however you want, as long as the GM is willing to let it work.

[Mono Vertigo]

The vampire is "reformed" and has taken up a monsatic life, and is careful to only food on willing victims and to never kill. It is more the dissonance of thinking undead can never be redeemed that puzzles me.

Yeah. Yeah. That one's got a big problem with logic and/or hypocrisy right there.

[Talakeal]

All I expected of the players was to search the surrounding area. Which they did, after burning the ship and then wandering around aimlessly for a while.

What they would find was a set of large hoof prints heading to the ship (but not leaving). In each hoof print was a pool of fresh water, each with its own ecology of simple pond dwelling algae and insects.

If followed the hoof prints appear in the middle of a grove of huge trees which grows inexplicably in the middle of the desert. Careful search reveals that the grove is the remains of a dock, long destroyed, and the trees are the masts of ancient ships somehow alive and blooming.


Ok then, the big reveal:

Those chained in the galley are NOT undead. They are however, corrupted by long exposure to tainted magic. They more resemble Gollum than anything, given long life but at the price of health and sanity. They would not register as undead to divinations or detection spells, but they are so foul that positive energy might have actually harmed them.

The legend about the golden fish and the cannibals is just that, a legend. It may have some spark of truth in it, distorted by hundreds of years of retelling, but it is not directly related to what is happening here. It was merely a clue to get the players headed in the right direction, both mentally and physically.

What really happened:
One hundred years ago a great Cataclysm swept the region. It killed most of the population and drained the inland sea. When this happened the ship the players encountered capsized, the crew were all swept away. Those chained in the galley were submerged and many injured, but most survived.

In the wake of the cataclysm a horrible disease swept through the region and killed virtually all the survivors. The spirit of the lake, a powerful local god and nature diety, took it upon itself to protect those who still lived in what had once been his domain. He swallowed the disease, and took it upon himself. He is now constantly in pain and corrupted by the infection, but still alive.

There is no food in the desert that was once a sea. The local god has decided to take mercy on those still living here and feeding them the only way he knows how. He has been manifesting avatars and allowing his "worshippers" to kill and eat his body. This has given them nourishment and unnatural vitality, but the diseases in his flesh have mutated them and stripped most of the sanity from them.

Those in the galley are one such group of worshippers. Confused by what is going on and their minds becoming increasingly irrational thanks to the hellish conditions and the diseased meat they have concocted their own mythology to explain their condition, which is what they have passed on to the PCs.

The "zombie plague" which first brought the PC here was brought to civilization by another group of adventurers. This group of adventurers found another cult of the lake god similar to the galley slaves and then did something horrible to them. Killed them, ate them, raped their women, robbed them, etc; the details are not important. However, the mutated diseases they carried were brought back to civilization by the adventurers.

Without the direct blessing of the god the diseases mutated and overcame their minds, turning them into flesh eating "zombies" who lived only to eat and spread the disease.

[Synovia]

I think you have to consider the metagame implications of the players' actions. You basically presented them with a BS scenario that was an obvious trap but with no way to confirm that without falling into said trap. It was definitely interesting and thought provoking, but ultimately looked like nothing more than a way for the DM to say, "Gotcha!"

Instead, the players basically said, "FU", and burned your scenario to the ground. I don't think it implies anything about their morality.


Yeah, I don't really have any problems with the party doing this. Then again, I'm not sure I'd agree with the party saying they were "good" and doing this.



to tell the truth, if my players would pull this stunt on my table, i'd have a god appear and try to protect his followers.

I think the "kill it with fire" solutions are suited for diablo 3, not for d&d. If I am presented with a riddle, I try to figure it out. They had fireballs, so they had someone cerebral enough to care about riddles.

Undead have no right to exist? I think I would hit the party cleric with a free necropolitan template. It is kinda a gain for him, and it will give him a good possibility for role-play. Unless the party kills him first.

Or i'd drop it on the party, but not on the cleric, 'cause he was protected by HIS god. Suddenly the ability to channel cure spells has diminished in value.


TLDR: I think for such a boring way to play you cannot be hard enough on them. you had a beautiful scenary murdered by WoW-mentality.


I agree. It does give you a new plot-hook though. They may have burned one, but they created another that leads to a very angry god/demon/whatever.

[holywhippet]

Mostly the "items 'mysteriously' disappearing" part, which is a massive signal of awful DMing. If there's some way the PCs are made aware their misfortune resulted from the theft, or are somehow able to avoid it, that might be more reasonable.

I love consequences (especially harder encounters and police action. My current game could use some of those), but no-save-no-roll-no-explanation stealing the PCs stuff is inexcusable, much like non-interactive "cutscenes". The PCs should have some chance to thwart it.

I don't think any of the items were major things, I think they were mostly stuff you'd find in the adventuring gear section of the PHB. Just enough to tip them off that something was amiss but not enough to seriously inconvinience them.

[Guizonde]

All I expected of the players was to search the surrounding area. Which they did, after burning the ship and then wandering around aimlessly for a while.

What they would find was a set of large hoof prints heading to the ship (but not leaving). In each hoof print was a pool of fresh water, each with its own ecology of simple pond dwelling algae and insects.

If followed the hoof prints appear in the middle of a grove of huge trees which grows inexplicably in the middle of the desert. Careful search reveals that the grove is the remains of a dock, long destroyed, and the trees are the masts of ancient ships somehow alive and blooming.


Ok then, the big reveal:

Those chained in the galley are NOT undead. They are however, corrupted by long exposure to tainted magic. They more resemble Gollum than anything, given long life but at the price of health and sanity. They would not register as undead to divinations or detection spells, but they are so foul that positive energy might have actually harmed them.

The legend about the golden fish and the cannibals is just that, a legend. It may have some spark of truth in it, distorted by hundreds of years of retelling, but it is not directly related to what is happening here. It was merely a clue to get the players headed in the right direction, both mentally and physically.

What really happened:
One hundred years ago a great Cataclysm swept the region. It killed most of the population and drained the inland sea. When this happened the ship the players encountered capsized, the crew were all swept away. Those chained in the galley were submerged and many injured, but most survived.

In the wake of the cataclysm a horrible disease swept through the region and killed virtually all the survivors. The spirit of the lake, a powerful local god and nature diety, took it upon itself to protect those who still lived in what had once been his domain. He swallowed the disease, and took it upon himself. He is now constantly in pain and corrupted by the infection, but still alive.

There is no food in the desert that was once a sea. The local god has decided to take mercy on those still living here and feeding them the only way he knows how. He has been manifesting avatars and allowing his "worshippers" to kill and eat his body. This has given them nourishment and unnatural vitality, but the diseases in his flesh have mutated them and stripped most of the sanity from them.

Those in the galley are one such group of worshippers. Confused by what is going on and their minds becoming increasingly irrational thanks to the hellish conditions and the diseased meat they have concocted their own mythology to explain their condition, which is what they have passed on to the PCs.

The "zombie plague" which first brought the PC here was brought to civilization by another group of adventurers. This group of adventurers found another cult of the lake god similar to the galley slaves and then did something horrible to them. Killed them, ate them, raped their women, robbed them, etc; the details are not important. However, the mutated diseases they carried were brought back to civilization by the adventurers.

Without the direct blessing of the god the diseases mutated and overcame their minds, turning them into flesh eating "zombies" who lived only to eat and spread the disease.

wow, that's... almost unbearably sad :smallfrown:

usually i'm the one calling for mercy-kills, but now it seems... inappropriate, you know?
it's a really cool side story, i wish your pc's could've helped unravel it.

on the other hand, you've got a lot (and i do mean a lot!) of plot hooks now!
-what are the consequences of the pc's actions? is the zombie plague gonna come back now?
-is the environment gonna change?
-what will this crazed-from-the-pain-god gonna do next?
-anything i've missed should be used!

the plot thickens, and i kindly wish you keep us abreast of developments:smallsmile:

[bbgenderless100]

You are a member of a party of adventurers who is taking shelter from a storm in a small town. During the night the town is attacked by a large group of creatures who resemble a cross between ghouls or zombies although they are not actually undead. They attack mindlessly, and anyone bitten will become like them, indeed most of these creatures are former residents of the town.

You defend the village from the creatures and in the morning ask for their origin. No one knows where they came from originally and they have been periodically attacking the village for several months. When asking around for any legends that might explain them a very old woman shares a story which her grandmother had told her when she was a child:

"Long ago on the great inland sea to the north two fisherman caught a strange golden fish. The fish spoke and begged them to release it, and said it would give them a blessing for their kindness. One wanted to throw it back, but the other man said it was foolish, for his family was poor and hungry. They quarreled over the fish, until they came to blows, and the man who wanted to eat the fish ended up knocking his partner overboard where he drowned. The man killed the golden fish and brought it home, but when he and his family ate of it they found no relief from their hunger. Indeed, their hunger only grew stronger, and they found that they could not be satisfied except by the flesh of their own kind. Eventually the fisherman's family would, one by one, kill and eat every other person in the small village where they lived. Their descendants still live there to this day, and any who go to the sea must beware of the cannibals."

The party decides it is as good a lead on any and heads out to the old inland sea, several days journey north of the village. When they get there they find no sea, but instead a desert of fine white sand.

In the middle of the desert you find an ancient ship wreck. Within are dozens of creatures that may once have been men, emaciated and deformed, with greenish grey skin and eyes that glow red in the dark. Most are very old and are chained to the ship, although some are younger, even children, and left free to scuttle about.

They do not attack, but you do not approach close. When spoken to, the creatures say that they were once galley slaves on this vessel, but when the ship sank their souls were bound to it. They believe themselves dead and that the desert they live in to be hell. They are afraid to leave the ship, and most have never even tried to break the rusted chains that bind them. They claim to have been here for many years.

When you ask how they survive, they tell you that their god keeps them alive and feeds them. When pressed about the nature of this god they say that it cannot be explained, only experienced. They invite you to come into the hold and take communion with them.

What do you do?

Sounds like they cannot be trusted, but follow them and see what happens from there.

[TuggyNE]

He's thinking of Cure Minor Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureMinorWounds.htm). Although that's 3.5, it would work as he describes.

In PF, he can just pop a Channel on them.

Hence my careful wording about having to expend spell slots; in 3.5, orisons cost 0th-level slots, and in PF, there is no orison that heals. :smallwink:


truth be told, i was thinking about virtue, i just didn't know that undead didn't react to temporary hp. but hey, i learned about cure minor wounds, so maaaaaaaybe i'll have a talk with the dm. would make sense rp-wise (not to mention act as a discreet "detect affable undead"):smallsmile:

Assuming, of course, that they don't make their save to negate the damage. Still, you'd at least notice the save.


is it possible for an undead to channel positive energy?

Oddly, I believe it is.

[Guizonde]

Oddly, I believe it is.

can't. resist.



That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.

[Talakeal]

can't. resist.

Eh, I don't see how it is any different than living beings channeling negative energy.

[Elderand]

"Nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure"

[holywhippet]

Eh, I don't see how it is any different than living beings channeling negative energy.

To me "channeling" doesn't mean you are running it through your body, you are just calling into existance somehow and directing it. I mean it's not like casting a fireball spell end up in the caster getting burnt (unless they are too close to ground zero).

[Slipperychicken]

To me "channeling" doesn't mean you are running it through your body, you are just calling into existance somehow and directing it. I mean it's not like casting a fireball spell end up in the caster getting burnt (unless they are too close to ground zero).

A PF Cleric is always at Ground Zero of his Channel ability. He gets to choose whether or not to include himself in the area, though, which is very convenient for both negative-channeling Clerics and undead positive-channelers.

[Guizonde]

i just find the idea silly for an archetypally evil character like a vampire to be all happy with the flowers and healing and everything (blame an overactive imagination). i don't expect undead good clerics, just like i don't expect evil clerics to be living (on the way to undeath is debatable)

[TuggyNE]

i just find the idea silly for an archetypally evil character like a vampire to be all happy with the flowers and healing and everything (blame an overactive imagination). i don't expect undead good clerics, just like i don't expect evil clerics to be living (on the way to undeath is debatable)

You don't have to be good, or even neutral, to channel positive energy through cure spells; similarly, you don't have to be evil, or neutral, to cast inflict spells. So it's just one of those things.

[Guizonde]

You don't have to be good, or even neutral, to channel positive energy through cure spells; similarly, you don't have to be evil, or neutral, to cast inflict spells. So it's just one of those things.

really? huh, i misunderstood the rules regarding cure spells with channelling spells then. must have mixed up the two. thanks for clearing that up :smallsmile:

regarding the original topic, can the thread starter post an update to the scenario? maybe a debrief with the players? i'd like to see their reasoning beyond "evil? evil. burn? burn."

[bbgenderless100]

You are a member of a party of adventurers who is taking shelter from a storm in a small town. During the night the town is attacked by a large group of creatures who resemble a cross between ghouls or zombies although they are not actually undead. They attack mindlessly, and anyone bitten will become like them, indeed most of these creatures are former residents of the town.

You defend the village from the creatures and in the morning ask for their origin. No one knows where they came from originally and they have been periodically attacking the village for several months. When asking around for any legends that might explain them a very old woman shares a story which her grandmother had told her when she was a child:

"Long ago on the great inland sea to the north two fisherman caught a strange golden fish. The fish spoke and begged them to release it, and said it would give them a blessing for their kindness. One wanted to throw it back, but the other man said it was foolish, for his family was poor and hungry. They quarreled over the fish, until they came to blows, and the man who wanted to eat the fish ended up knocking his partner overboard where he drowned. The man killed the golden fish and brought it home, but when he and his family ate of it they found no relief from their hunger. Indeed, their hunger only grew stronger, and they found that they could not be satisfied except by the flesh of their own kind. Eventually the fisherman's family would, one by one, kill and eat every other person in the small village where they lived. Their descendants still live there to this day, and any who go to the sea must beware of the cannibals."

The party decides it is as good a lead on any and heads out to the old inland sea, several days journey north of the village. When they get there they find no sea, but instead a desert of fine white sand.

In the middle of the desert you find an ancient ship wreck. Within are dozens of creatures that may once have been men, emaciated and deformed, with greenish grey skin and eyes that glow red in the dark. Most are very old and are chained to the ship, although some are younger, even children, and left free to scuttle about.

They do not attack, but you do not approach close. When spoken to, the creatures say that they were once galley slaves on this vessel, but when the ship sank their souls were bound to it. They believe themselves dead and that the desert they live in to be hell. They are afraid to leave the ship, and most have never even tried to break the rusted chains that bind them. They claim to have been here for many years.

When you ask how they survive, they tell you that their god keeps them alive and feeds them. When pressed about the nature of this god they say that it cannot be explained, only experienced. They invite you to come into the hold and take communion with them.

What do you do?

Don't trust them at all and tell them that the idea of a "god" is subjective however if they can make me an offer where i can be as free as i want without them trying to oppress me at all with rules or anything related to that then i'll take the deal.

[Talakeal]

really? huh, i misunderstood the rules regarding cure spells with channelling spells then. must have mixed up the two. thanks for clearing that up :smallsmile:

regarding the original topic, can the thread starter post an update to the scenario? maybe a debrief with the players? i'd like to see their reasoning beyond "evil? evil. burn? burn."

What info would you like? I can tell you everything I know, but I can't contact the players right now to get their oppinions (not that most of them would give me a straight answer anyway).

I can tell you how they proceeded from there if you like. It was a rather spectacular misadventure from that point on if I do say so.

The one player I did talk to simply said "They are probably the source of the disease. As they had glowing red eyes that meant they are undead, so I didn't feel bad about killing them as undead are abominations that have no right to exist."

I told him that rats also had glowing red eyes and are not undead, and he said "No, I said glowing red eyes, rats have reflecting red eyes, therefore they must be have been undead."

[Synovia]

You don't have to be good, or even neutral, to channel positive energy through cure spells; similarly, you don't have to be evil, or neutral, to cast inflict spells. So it's just one of those things.

We talking 3.5 or PF?

In 3.5 Good Clerics can't cast Inflict spells, Evil Clerics can't cast Cure spells. Neutral Clerics can only cast one or the other.

[holywhippet]

The one player I did talk to simply said "They are probably the source of the disease. As they had glowing red eyes that meant they are undead, so I didn't feel bad about killing them as undead are abominations that have no right to exist."

I told him that rats also had glowing red eyes and are not undead, and he said "No, I said glowing red eyes, rats have reflecting red eyes, therefore they must be have been undead."

I just took a quick look through the undead on the SRD, I can't see any undead that have glowing red eyes. Sentient undead are pretty rare also - most are fairly mindless.

[TuggyNE]

We talking 3.5 or PF?

In 3.5 Good Clerics can't cast Inflict spells, Evil Clerics can't cast Cure spells. Neutral Clerics can only cast one or the other.

Either. In 3.5 specifically, Good Clerics can prepare inflict spells (but not cast them spontaneously) and vice versa.

[Guizonde]

What info would you like? I can tell you everything I know, but I can't contact the players right now to get their oppinions (not that most of them would give me a straight answer anyway).

I can tell you how they proceeded from there if you like. It was a rather spectacular misadventure from that point on if I do say so.

The one player I did talk to simply said "They are probably the source of the disease. As they had glowing red eyes that meant they are undead, so I didn't feel bad about killing them as undead are abominations that have no right to exist."

I told him that rats also had glowing red eyes and are not undead, and he said "No, I said glowing red eyes, rats have reflecting red eyes, therefore they must be have been undead."

well, how it ended for a start! but getting the players' take would be worth it too.
now to be clear: i like killing stuff too, but this seems like derp-murderhobo mode-activate. i lol'd hard at the "glowing eyes" thing too. i've got a tiefling in my party, halfling monk knocked him unconscious during night-shift once :smallbiggrin: due to... glowing red eyes! (hehehe... magic mutations... silly people using arcane magic *runs away*)

@synovia: so, maybe my confusion came from there! my dm makes us use the PF spell list, using 3.5 rules, so i'm never sure what i'm using exactly:smallannoyed:

[Kelb_Panthera]

We talking 3.5 or PF?

In 3.5 Good Clerics can't cast Inflict spells, Evil Clerics can't cast Cure spells. Neutral Clerics can only cast one or the other.

As tuggyne said, this is incorrect. Good clerics can't -spontaneously- cast inflict spells, but they can prepare them normally just fine. The same is true of evil clerics and cure spells. Neutral clerics choose one or the other for spontaneous casting but can prepare both just fine.

[Sebastrd]

Yes, it was an obvious trap. That wasn't the point. I didn't expect the players to actually go in and take communion with them, especially without precautions. However, there were an infinite number of options, and I certainly expected more investigation before coming to a conclusion.

It isn't like this was a narrow hallway with a macguffin ahead and a locked door behind, this was literally one object in the middle of an open desert.

Besides, if we assume their actions were an 'FU' to the DM rather than an attempt to role-play their characters morality that is even worse. That is meta gaming at best, and more likely falls into the category of willful game disruption just for the sake of being a jerk.

I was way too grumpy when I posted that, so I apologise. I was simply saying that it seemed to me the players were uninterested in playing out a heavy handed moral dilema scenario and were trying to let you know that in no uncertain terms via their in-character actions.