[3.5] Friend wants to play a Combat Cleric

[Menzath]

Okay going to be starting a new game in a few months and A freind of mine wants to play a Combat Cleric(Meele). He was planning on being a human and going fighter for the 1st level of two before going cleric.
I was wondering would it be better if he played a favored Soul for the free combat feats/more spells per day as well as other bonuses(saves etc).
I personally feel this is the better route since he most likely will not be getting DMM and I will be playing main healer, he want have the immediate spell selection to choose what different spells per day as a cleric would, but he would gain more uses of those hefty combat spells.
Although a few divine feats could make him a bit better in combat, I think most of his feat progression is going to be going into helping with his meele attacks.

And of course we are all wondering why he just doesn't go paladin and get the better BaB without spell use, and even though the pld spell selection is small it does have some very unique and helpful spells.

So any advice you can give me to help convince this misguided(in my opnion) friend of mine would be helpful.

[Gavinfoxx]

It's best to just play straight cleric, or possibly Cloistered Cleric, depending on your book availability. Don't dip fighter, it does nothing for you.

Clerics are better fighters than fighters. They are better at melee than Favored Souls as well.

Read this:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0

IMO, at melee combat and awesomeness:

Cleric or Cloistered Cleric > Mystic > Favored Soul >>>> Fighter or Paladin

Even without DMM Persist. Consider DMM Quicken, perhaps?

Also, the 'Main Healer' should be a wand of Lesser Vigor or Cure Light Wounds. It isn't something a CHARACTER has to focus on...

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2710

[Theoboldi]

Personally, I would suggest to him to make a cleric with the spontenous domain casting ACF from the PH2, coupled with the war domain. That would give him a lot of buffing spells that he can cast without preparation, and make him less MAD than a favored soul is. He would also still get weapon focus for free.

[skycycle blues]

Domains are your friend here:
-Strength Domain gives you Enlarge Person.
-Time Domain gives you Improved Initiative.
-Law Domain can be traded for Law Devotion, which grants a buff to Attack Bonus or AC that scales with level.
-Knowledge Domain can be traded for Knowledge Devotion, which grants bonuses to hit and damage rolls based on Knowledge checks.
-War Domain grants proficiency and weapon focus, which can be useful if you find a Deity whose favored weapon is one that would be worth a proficiency feat.
-Travel Domain grants Freedom of Movement and opens up Travel Devotion, which gives swift action movement.

I'm sure there are more great ones. Through the right Domain and Spell choices, Clerics can easily wreck Combat.

[Greenish]

So any advice you can give me to help convince this misguided(in my opnion) friend of mine would be helpful.If you want to convince him he shouldn't be playing cleric if he wants to go melee, well, you've come to the wrong place. :smallamused:


I would recommend going straight cleric for first levels, then looking into a PrC like Ordained Champion (from Complete Champion), though a fighter level or two shouldn't weight him down too badly.


[Edit]: Favoured Soul doesn't get domains, and the limited spell selection is far less forgiving than cleric's, and doesn't really support long duration buffs.

[Gavinfoxx]

Mystic is from Dragonlance Campaign Setting, and is like a Favored Soul, but with a Domain.

I made an interesting one here:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=427641

[Menzath]

Ah from the advice I have read here, which is all very sound advice it appears you have convinced me and that I was the poorly misguided one. Still any more advice on how to optimize said Cleric then would also be apperciated.

[Gavinfoxx]

Ah from the advice I have read here, which is all very sound advice it appears you have convinced me and that I was the poorly misguided one. Still any more advice on how to optimize said Cleric then would also be apperciated.

Read the Cleric Handbook I linked to straight through.

Then read this handbook straight through:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773

Then read the Healing Guide I linked to straight through.

[Mithril Leaf]

Read the Cleric Handbook I linked to straight through.

Then read this handbook straight through:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773

Then read the Healing Guide I linked to straight through.

Friendly neighborhood update: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1238

[Gavinfoxx]

Argh, right, yea. That's the more recent version.

[skycycle blues]

Ah from the advice I have read here, which is all very sound advice it appears you have convinced me and that I was the poorly misguided one. Still any more advice on how to optimize said Cleric then would also be apperciated.

If Tome of Battle is available, there's a PrC in there for Cleric/Crusaders called Ruby Knight Vindicator, which is one of the only ways in the game to get extra swift actions (possibly the only one, don't quote me on that). It requires worship of Wee Jas, but can easily be adapted to fit other deities (change the Armored Stealth ability to some more appropriate skill bonus and Shadow Hand school access to a school more fitting the other Deity).

[Menzath]

Great info guys. btw is there info abound for druids that could be of help to me? Going to be playing our healer.

[Gavinfoxx]

No, you aren't. You are going to be playing the OTHER divine-fueled melee badass with awesome useful spells to do anything you ever want.

Each of you will have a Wand of Lesser Vigor (though yours may be in the hands of someone else, once you are wild-shaped 24/7 at level 8), and you and the Cleric will heal the party outside of combat...

Got it?

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=940

http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/quickstart-druid.html

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871574/The_Planar_Shepherd_Handbook

[Theoboldi]

No, you aren't. You are going to be playing the OTHER divine-fueled melee badass with awesome useful spells to do anything you ever want.

Each of you will have a Wand of Lesser Vigor (though yours may be in the hands of someone else, once you are wild-shaped 24/7 at level 8), and you and the Cleric will heal the party outside of combat...

Got it?

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=940

http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/quickstart-druid.html

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871574/The_Planar_Shepherd_Handbook

Dude, I don't think their group is quite that optimized. Let him play a healer if he wants to and thinks he can contribute as one.

As for some actual advice, you should probably go cleric too, and go into radiant servant of pelor. It really gives your healing spells more bang, and is pretty easy to get into too. It's pretty much the thing you want when you want to reliably heal in combat.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

There's the Druid Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=940) for all you Druidic needs. Also, a Druid can be a great healer, by using Summon Nature's Ally IV (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyIV.htm) to get a Unicorn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/unicorn.htm) which has some nice healing SLAs.

For your Cleric friend, if they are allowed, a level of Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) may be worth taking a look at. It gets detect evil (kinda meh), smite 1/day (also kinda meh), advances Turn Undead (ok, I guess), and gives him access to all those nice Paladin combat spells.

[Menzath]

Lol no he was right I wasn't plannig on playing a healer. I was thinking of doing the alternate feature shapshift from Phb2 to perma wildshape @ lvl 1. though I would have to talk to our DM about changing the str bonus from enchant to something that makes flippin sense, if he rules that it stays an enchant bonus than yeah i'll go normal wildshape. Yeah I know it means I don't get to have a swim form oh noes.... heart of water.
Was also planning on getting extend spell early as well as metamagic rods of reach/chain for more maximized use of spells.
We are also going to be having a Bard that wants to go lyric thamaturge for sonic nukes, but that could backup heal as well. Was wondering if he should go that other one that get's 9th lvl spells.
And "sigh" the last party member that is decided wants to be a scout to order of the bow intiate... yeah.
And our last party member is as of yet undecided.

Edit: and yeah once I get 9th level spells gonna have persistent spell to give mah party fast healing 2 for 24hrs. Means we only have to burst heal at really dire moments and not care about any scratches.

[Gavinfoxx]

Dude, I don't think their group is quite that optimized. Let him play a healer if he wants to and thinks he can contribute as one.

The thing is, we gave the other guy the Cleric Handbook. The simple fact that he is going to be reading it, means that we should likely do the same for the Druid Handbook.

Regardless if they actually use all the stuff in the handbooks or not, this should bump the average optimization level of the group up significantly!

Anyway, for any given concept, OP, you should look to see if there is a handbook or three for it. The index of handbooks is here:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=399.0

So you can help yourself.

[Menzath]

Wow you guys have been an amazing help.
/salute.
I know it is still many months till we start this game and even roll/buy stats, but you all have been incredibly helpful.

[Gavinfoxx]

Point buy. You want Point Buy...

Also, there is some meta-game and conceptual reading that every newbie should do, to get a handle on the strengths and weaknesses of the 3.5e system. And there are other, alternative systems that you might want to check out instead.

Much of that stuff is the links in the 'metagame concepts' thing. Some of the stuff in the 'other' section.. Really, read as many of those as you can. Open that link, open all the spoiler boxes, and just open whatever seems like it might be interesting in a new tab, and at least GLANCE at everything.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Lol no he was right I wasn't plannig on playing a healer. I was thinking of doing the alternate feature shapshift from Phb2 to perma wildshape @ lvl 1. though I would have to talk to our DM about changing the str bonus from enchant to something that makes flippin sense, if he rules that it stays an enchant bonus than yeah i'll go normal wildshape. Yeah I know it means I don't get to have a swim form oh noes.... heart of water.
Was also planning on getting extend spell early as well as metamagic rods of reach/chain for more maximized use of spells.
We are also going to be having a Bard that wants to go lyric thamaturge for sonic nukes, but that could backup heal as well. Was wondering if he should go that other one that get's 9th lvl spells.
And "sigh" the last party member that is decided wants to be a scout to order of the bow intiate... yeah.
And our last party member is as of yet undecided.

Edit: and yeah once I get 9th level spells gonna have persistent spell to give mah party fast healing 2 for 24hrs. Means we only have to burst heal at really dire moments and not care about any scratches.

While Shapeshift may look enticing, it's strictly worse than normal Wildshape. Which may be desirable, as it can bring the power level of the Druid down and into line with a lower-powered party. Some would argue, however, that in a lower-powered party it is more necessary to have a higher powered BFC/Buffer/Debuffer to compensate.

I note this only so that you may make an informed decision.

[Gavinfoxx]

Basically, to get the most out of Druid, you want to take the least amount of ACF's as possible.

Each and every one of these IS A NERF TO DRUID:

Shapeshift Variant (Player's Handbook II)
Deadly Hunter Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Druidic Avenger Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Divine Caster Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Affliction Variant (Exemplars of Evil)
Spontaneous Rejuvenation (Player's Handbook II)

In fact, if you generally want to lower the power of Druid from 'insanely overpowered' (where it starts) to 'sane', you should take as many of these as you can stack.

[Mithril Leaf]

Basically, to get the most out of Druid, you want to take the least amount of ACF's as possible.

Each and every one of these IS A NERF TO DRUID:

Shapeshift Variant (Player's Handbook II)
Deadly Hunter Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Druidic Avenger Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Divine Caster Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Affliction Variant (Exemplars of Evil)
Spontaneous Rejuvenation (Player's Handbook II)

In fact, if you generally want to lower the power of Druid from 'insanely overpowered' (where it starts) to 'sane', you should take as many of these as you can stack.

There's that one Dragon Magazine one that's a little bit better and that other Dragon Magazine one that's pretty much a totally neutral trade off. But yeah, almost every one blows.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

There's that one Dragon Magazine one that's a little bit better and that other Dragon Magazine one that's pretty much a totally neutral trade off. But yeah, almost every one blows.

As I recall, the Dragon Magazine one that's a little bit better is only a little bit better because it gets Turn Undead, no?

[Mithril Leaf]

As I recall, the Dragon Magazine one that's a little bit better is only a little bit better because it gets Turn Undead, no?

Yep. It lets you play cleric with DMM.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Yep. It lets you play cleric with DMM.

And does so without the ever fashionable Sacred Exorcist dip, to boot.

[Mithril Leaf]

And does so without the ever fashionable Sacred Exorcist dip, to boot.

Sacred Exorcist doesn't advance wildshape and animal companion after all.

[Coidzor]

While we're on the subject of healing, "A Player's Guide to Healing (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_And_why_you_will_be_Jus t_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal)" is probably of interest.

A tad acerbic at times, though, but good food for thought.

Does anyone recall the name of the Dragon Magazine variant Druid that gives turn undead, or at least an issue number?

[Mithril Leaf]

While we're on the subject of healing, "A Player's Guide to Healing (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_And_why_you_will_be_Jus t_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal)" is probably of interest.

A tad acerbic at times, though, but good food for thought.

Does anyone recall the name of the Dragon Magazine variant Druid that gives turn undead, or at least an issue number?

Wild Reaper in Dragon 311. Should be sandwiched in a bunch of druid variants.

Also, as far as healing goes I have this to say:
You should be fine. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1520)

Friendly neighborhood update wizard says: MinMaxBoards has nice format. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2710)

[Coidzor]

Wild Reaper in Dragon 311. Should be sandwiched in a bunch of druid variants.

Also, as far as healing goes I have this to say:
You should be fine. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1520)

Friendly neighborhood update wizard says: MinMaxBoards has nice format. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2710)

...Thanks.

Also, I was actually looking for the minmaxboards versions and couldn't find them via googling, weirdly enough. :smallconfused:

[Theoboldi]

The thing is, we gave the other guy the Cleric Handbook. The simple fact that he is going to be reading it, means that we should likely do the same for the Druid Handbook.


Of course. All I was really objecting to was you telling him to not play a healer, when that was explitly what he said he wanted before. I was just worried about the hypothetical rest of the group besides the cleric and Menzath here. Of course, that said, I don't know much about druids, so I'm going to keep my mouth shut on this one.

[Garwain]

I'm playing a human Cleric of St-Cuthbert with DMM Quicken, Strength domain and protection devotion from lvl 1 to 6 now. There is so much fun to have with a quickened enlarge and large mage clobbering. Offsetting the loss of AC due to large size by protection devotion (+2 AC +1/4lvls aura). And don't forget the Strength domain power, adding +1str/lvl on top of it all as a free action.

It's a relative simple build (DMM quicken only requires 2 feats), yet a lot of options outside combat too.